Receiver for RTI4's

[boxxkar]

I currently have a Harman Kardon AVR 130 with RTI4's front and rear with a CSi3 center. My question is with the Harman Kardon reciever, which has a power rating of 45 watts per channel. I purchased this reciever when I had satellite speakers and when I moved to the Rti4's I've been somewhat disappointed at the sound. It seems like the speakers are lacking at the bottom range and/or just a general feeling of warmth or speratation. One day I tried taking the rear speakers and moving them to another room and hooked them up to an old (purchased in 1992) 2 channel Kenwood reciever, and the sound was notabley better (meeting my expectations for the speakers). So, now I am thinking of changing out the Harman Kardon with something that had more power, but my question really if it is the power or the brand that is making the difference. I am not sure of what the power rating is for the old Kenwood (I am guessing it has to be higher than 45 watts of the AVR 130 as the speakers I purchased in 1992 were bigger (I think the main driver was a 6" or 8") than the RTi4's). Any words of advice with the Harman Kardon AVR 130? Should I replace it or should this reciever work with the RTI4's?

Thanks for any advice or insight on the Harman Kardon, the forms really helped me with the purchase of the RTI4's.

[zombie boy 2000]

What surround mode are you using on the HK?

[boxxkar]

Right now, I am using the 3 channel stereo (because I moved the rears). When I listen to music on the HK I use the non-surround mode, I forget the name, but it's the mode that only plays the front left and right without a sub.

My comparsion with the Kenwood and the HK is both with music using a two channel sound or mode.

[zombie boy 2000]

Do you have the speakers set to small or large?

if small, where have you set the crossover?

[boxxkar]

The speakers are set to large.

[zombie boy 2000]

btw Welcome to the Forum Boxxkar...:)

those speaker of yours are awesome speaks; if I remember correctly, Stereophile gave them a helluva write-up. That being said, they only dig so deep in the bass department (somewhere around 50 Hz, if I'm not mistaken). Do you have a sub? If so, set your speakers to small and set the crossover to 80 on your HK's OSD menu.

What this does is allow your Rti4's to handle the frequency range with which they were intended, and throws everything lower to the subwoofer. This should open them up nicely, providing you with a "less muddy" sound.
A crossover of 80 Hz is not necessarily set in stone either. Experiment and you may find that you prefer a crossover of 60 or even 100Hz.


Also... how long ago did you purchase these speakers? They do require a "break-in" time of roughly 100 hours.

[a_mattison]

HK in general makes a great product, especially compared to Kenwood. I haven't lisented to the AVR140, but it may be a little low in power. If I were you, I wouldn't go out and buy a new receiver. Use the pre-outs on your receiver and buy a decent, used, 2 channel amp, or monoblock amps for the RTi4's. You would see a huge difference in sound with even a 100 wpc amp.

[zombie boy 2000]

the avr140 doesn't have pre-outs...

[zombie boy 2000]

but I agree.... HK makes awesome products and 45 watts of HK should definitely do the Rti4's justice

[boxxkar]

I am really happy with the Rti4's, they sound great with the 2 channel setup and the old Kenwood. It's the HK that I am having a problem with, be it with the tuning/setup of it or the power.

I purchased the speakers nearly a year ago. I ran the HK and these speakers in a smaller room up until a few months ago when I moved. The new space is a little larger, but it's not siginificantly larger enough to make a difference (at least I would think not).

I do not have a sub, but the Rti4's and the Kenwood produce enough low end for me. They just sound so different with the HK.

Zombie boy 2000, I looked up the HK AVR240 and found that it had 7 channels at 50 watts each but noticed that you also have an amp (the Rotel?). Did you add the additional power because of your floor speakers? What difference did the additional amp make if you ran these speakers on the HK before adding the amp?

[zombie boy 2000]

It's quite possible that your Kenwood might have a higher power rating than the HK. Could you let me know the model?

As for the addition of an amp to my set-up, the Monitor 70's (though not as power hungry as the Rti floorstanders, or any of the Lsi's) still require a bit more juice than the Rti4's. An external amp would make your speaks sing, no doubt....
but they really should sound fine running off of 45wpc from an HK.

Now that I think of it, I believe the AVR140 runs 50wpc in stereo mode and 40wpc in all surround modes -- but 5 watts really is nominal. To notice an increase of 3db, you would have to double your wattage.

Another thing, what source are you using -- we may need to address this....

[boxxkar]

I will look into the power rating of the Kenwood, I know I still have manual filed away somewhere. I will check into that tonight.

By the way I have a HK 130, not a 140. It seems the 140 is similar, but a newer model. It has six channels and the 130 has five channels.

[zombie boy 2000]

or pull the model # and look it up on-line (might be quicker than rummaging through your files:) )

still... let me know what you're using for a CD player and what cables you're using to connect to the receiver

[boxxkar]

With the HK setup downstairs I mostly listen to songs from an Ipod or music stored on my computer (accessed through Tivo).

Upstairs with the Kenwood setup the source is usually either the CD player from my computer or xm radio online.

Come to think of it, I have not tried listening to the Ipod upstairs with the Kenwood or listening to a CD downstairs. I will try that tonight and also pull the model number from the Kenwood.

[zombie boy 2000]

Now things are starting to make a little more sense.....

I really can't speak directly from experience (maybe someone else could chime in?), but it's my understanding that there is a noticable degradation of sound quality when using an Ipod as a source.

Hook that CD player up to the HK and report back tomorrow... let us know if you don't hear a vast improvement.

btw how recently did you pick up your HK? will you be able to return it if it continues to disappoint?

[boxxkar]

I purchased the HK about March/April of 2004. At the time I was running a set of Klipsch satellite speakers, so I didn't think much about the power rating on the HK.

Thanks for your help.

[zombie boy 2000]

You're welcome

I'm not saying to dump the HK (just yet), but you're right in assuming that the Rti's have the potential to sound better. "How much better" depends on how much you're willing to spend.....

I know it's been addressed, but by providing the specs on the Kenwood we should be able decide whether it's a power issue or a set-up/source issue. If it's the former, you might be able to sell it, and put the money toward either a higher-end receiver -- or some separates. If you choose to go the receiver route, I'm all with A Mattison in that you should invest in something with pre-outs. I stumbled upon that "feature" unknowingly, and it was a lucky thing indeed..

[boxxkar]

I checked the power of the Kenwood and as it turns out it has 80 watts RMS versus the HK at 45 watts. So, is it reasonable to say the difference I am hearing between the two setups has to do with the difference in the amount of power? Is there a "sweet spot" in regards to the amount of power a receiver should have?

I did not get a chance to test the differences in source material.

[zombie boy 2000]

Are we talking 80 watts per channels, or 80 watts both channels driven? I'm not that familiar with Kenwood's earlier integrateds but I'd take 45 watts of HK over 80 watts of today's Kenwood everyday of the week and twice on Sunday. If you could just look at the front of your receiver and provide us with a model # for the Kenwood, I'd be able to help you out more....

As for a "sweet spot" for power output, I've never heard of too much power being a bad thing -- only too little. The more, the merrier in other words...

[Willow]

I would agree as well, the HK's 45wpc would be much better than the kenwood's. Don't forget that the HK has much better AMp than the Ken as well.

[boxxkar]

The Kenwood was 80 watts per channel. I didn't bring the model number with me, but when I tried to look it up online I could not find any info on it (it's probably just too old, I purchased it in 1991). I still had the manual, which is where I got the specs from.

When you say the HK's 45 wpc is better than the Kenwood's 80 wpc, is this the quality/cleaness of the output or are you suggesting that the output of the two would be the same even though the wattage is different?

[zombie boy 2000]

Unfortunately, I cannot speak authoritivaley about your Pioneer. I do believe that the 2-channel integrateds of 15 years ago, probably have a leg up on some of the more HT driven receivers of the here and now.

That being said, I would still assume that your HK has a larger and beefier amp section than your Kenwood.

I guess it boils down to this, though. If you can determine that it's not the difference in source causing the discrepancy, than move along to bigger and brighter climes. Everyone here would love to provide you with a long, long list of suggestions to make your Rti4's shine. Or, if you're satisfied with the way they sound with your Kenwood -- keep on truckin' and make the switch.

But again, until we rule out either source or set-up, I'm still holding out hope for the HK:)

...unless you've got money burning a hole in your pocket:D

[boxxkar]

No, I don't have money burning a hole in my pocket so I had planned to keep tweaking the HK. I've already been through most of the settings, but there's a lot there and I will keep looking and playing until I come back to the amount of power. As I mentioned earlier, I moved recently and haven't had the time to finish setting up/tweaking the system in the new place yet.

By the way, the Kenwood was just something that I had laying around. If I were to replace the HK, I might go with a Denon or even another HK. Other than the wattage, I haven't any problems with HK and would still consider purchasing it again.

[boxxkar]

*I meant the wattage of this particular HK unit, not the power of HK in general.

[zombie boy 2000]

I'm with you all the way on the monetary situation. And if things were as simple as throwing money at every problem encountered, then this hobby wouldn't be one-tenth the fun it is.

Quick question... how do you have your tone controls set on the HK?

[zombie boy 2000]

*I meant the wattage of this particular HK unit, not the power of HK in general.

If HK isn't your bag, I would never in a million years take offense. Some people find them too warm and laid-back for their likings, and prefer the slam or punch of something like a Yamaha. Polks, in general, are laid-back speaks (at least to my ears), and Harman Kardon does nothing to counteract this when thrown into the mix.

[boxxkar]

I assume you are talking about the tone in / out or the bass and treble?

On the HK I have the tone in and the bass and treble set to maybe 1 or 2 o'clock from flat (noon, using the same clock analogy).

[zombie boy 2000]

I assume you are talking about the tone in / out or the bass and treble?

On the HK I have the tone in and the bass and treble set to maybe 1 or 2 o'clock from flat (noon, using the same clock analogy).

Yeah... just checking. You never know.

Where are your speakers positioned?

[boxxkar]

Right now the speakers are sitting on top of a entertainment cabinet. I had planned to move them to speaker stands, but I have not found ones I was happy with yet.

The other set of Rti4's that are connected to the Kenwood are actually hung the wall.

[a_mattison]

Now things are starting to make a little more sense.....

I really can't speak directly from experience (maybe someone else could chime in?), but it's my understanding that there is a noticable degradation of sound quality when using an Ipod as a source.

Hook that CD player up to the HK and report back tomorrow... let us know if you don't hear a vast improvement.

btw how recently did you pick up your HK? will you be able to return it if it continues to disappoint?

I play my Wife's Nano through my HK often and think it sounds great. If you have th EQ on the nano on there is some overinflated bass, but everything else sounds pretty good.

[Mike682]

The 45w/channel on the HK will be fine enough to drive the Rti4s. First step: Check simple things like speaker wire polarity (also gauge too: hk recommends 14 gauge wire and nothing thinner than 16ga), etc. With all that switching, it may be possible to have an oversight.

Check your speaker levels too.

Also try the HK with different sources..

Does the Kenwood have a loud setting? This will overemphasize the lower frequencies at lower volumes therefore making it sound more punchy at lower volumes.

Try the HK using Dolby pro logic II, music.

[zombie boy 2000]

The 45w/channel on the HK will be fine enough to drive the Rti4s. First step: Check simple things like speaker wire polarity (also gauge too: hk recommends 14 gauge wire and nothing thinner than 16ga), etc. With all that switching, it may be possible to have an oversight.

Check your speaker levels too.

Also try the HK with different sources..

Does the Kenwood have a loud setting? This will overemphasize the lower frequencies at lower volumes therefore making it sound more punchy at lower volumes.

Try the HK using Dolby pro logic II, music.

Thanks for helping out Mike.:)

I was trying to juggle a couple of things yesterday afternoon and couldn't really wrap my head fully around this issue.

+1 on the loud setting
make sure you're not mistaking louder for more detailed

+1 on the gauge of the speaker wire
We can argue all we want here on the forum about "snake oil" claims and the legitimacy of higher-end cables. But we're pretty much all in agreement that 12-gauge of Ratshack wire will always sound better than 22 gauge of the same wire.

+1 on checking the speaker levels, as well

[boxxkar]

Thanks for the input. I am not 100% of the wire in each room, but I am pretty sure in the living room in the I have 14 or 16 gauge monster speaker wire and I am pretty sure the same goes for the bedroom with the Kenwood. The spreaker wires are difference colors (one is white, one is clear), but I am pretty they are both the same gauge. I will double check that tonight. I will also double check the polarity.

The Kenwood does have a load setting, but its not the speaker level I am hearing. The speakers in the bedroom definity have more range than the ones in the living room with the HK.

I am going to tinker with these things over the next week and will get back to you. I am currently in the midest of painting and other remodeling work, so I've got my hands full until rooms are put back together.

At least I know the reciever should be adequate.

[boxxkar]

*Kenwood has a loud button, not a load button. Opps!

[zombie boy 2000]

One thing to keep in mind is that what seems like 14 or 16 gauge wire from Monster is probably more like 18 or 20 gauge. Why is this? Keep in mind that Monster does not release the gauge sizes of their lower-end "bulk" wire. I was curious, myself, when I couldn't properly determine the gauge of some Monster wire that I owned.

So I called their customer service and gave them the model #. I was thinking somewhere between 12 and 14 gauge. Well, the gentleman on the other end was quite hesitant to come off the info -- but after prepping me with a "between you and me", he informed me that it was 18 gauge.

I couldn't believe it, as the wire just seemed so much thicker. He simply referred me to the "small tube" than runs between the conductors, supposedly to enhance performance. IMO it increases the gauge size "cosmetically", while remaining more akin to dental floss performance-wise.

How do I know? I traded it out for some standard 10-gauge courtesy of Blue Jeans Cable and the difference was startling. It should be noted that BJC makes no "enhanced performance" claims.

Not to knock all things Monster. Their mid-level to higher-end stuff is more than likely better than Home Depot. But as for their bulk in a box... be careful.

Sorry for the long post, but at this point we're pursuing every avenue.

[aaharvel]

If bass is an issue, you'll get much better bass response using Logic7 than dolby prologic II(x).

[boxxkar]

Interesting stuff. I am going to have to double check the cabeling in the other room, as that stuff came from my miscellaneous wire box, which did have some 12 guage speaker wire leftover from another project.

This is a great forum. I think I'm hooked on it. As I have been looking at other people's setups I have noticed a lot of people have a seperate amp.

Andrew, I looked up that HK Sig 2.1 and it has 100 wpc while the AVR235 had 50 wpc. Did you ever run the Rti4's on just the receiver or did you always have the amp? I am curious of the sound difference between just the AVR235 and the ARV 235 with that external amp.

[Mike682]

Andrew, I looked up that HK Sig 2.1 and it has 100 wpc while the AVR235 had 50 wpc. Did you ever run the Rti4's on just the receiver or did you always have the amp? I am curious of the sound difference between just the AVR235 and the ARV 235 with that external amp.

I ran my R30's with my AVR235 and it had plenty of volume.

When I added the seperate amp, my soundstage opened up and seemed wider. I'm not knocking the HK AVR amps as they do a great job, and I respect HK for rating their receivers appropriately. However, a seperate power amp of the same rated wattage will offer increased dynamics because the amp has its own dedicated power supply. A receiver power supply, in contrast, must supply power to the pre-amp, amp, tuner, processor, etc.

Just remember you need pre-outs to add an amplifier to your receiver. HK recievers 2xx and higher have pre-outs..

[Mike682]

One thing to keep in mind is that what seems like 14 or 16 gauge wire from Monster is probably more like 18 or 20 gauge. Why is this? Keep in mind that Monster does not release the gauge sizes of their lower-end "bulk" wire. I was curious, myself, when I couldn't properly determine the gauge of some Monster wire that I owned.

So I called their customer service and gave them the model #. I was thinking somewhere between 12 and 14 gauge. Well, the gentleman on the other end was quite hesitant to come off the info -- but after prepping me with a "between you and me", he informed me that it was 18 gauge.

Very interesting. The monster xp wire does look very thin. I also knew something was up when I couldn't find the guage spec on the package..

[zombie boy 2000]

Very interesting. The monster xp wire does look very thin.

Exactly...
the jacket looks thick with the XP, but when you factor out that "clear magical tube" running between the conductors, you're not left with much. Trust me.
The SQ of my gear opened up immensely once I ditched the stuff.

As for an external amp, I noticed a world of difference when my HK avr240 got reassigned to pre/pro duty. A vast increase in soundstage the most noticable improvement. Increased headroom also led to more clarity in the presentation. An external amp is one of the best (if not the best) upgrades you can make.

[aaharvel]

Andrew, I looked up that HK Sig 2.1 and it has 100 wpc while the AVR235 had 50 wpc. Did you ever run the Rti4's on just the receiver or did you always have the amp? I am curious of the sound difference between just the AVR235 and the ARV 235 with that external amp.

I've ran my entire setup on just the avr-235, and it sounded fantastic. I decided to move up to the amp to get that last little bit of warmth and dry sound out of my rti speakers, which tend to have neutral/bright sound characteristics.

The improvement is there, but not how one would anticipate. The volume itself is only about +3db. louder on average, but the sound in and of itself is more dry, warm, and layered. Is my amp overkill with what i've got? You damn right, and I wouldn't have it any other way. =)

[zombie boy 2000]

Andrew hit the nail on the head. The changes are not so much in the volume increase, but rather in the effortlessness with which the music comes through. "Layered" is a perfect description.

[boxxkar]

Thank's for the input. I've got some things to try out now. I just need to finish work now, so I can get home and try it out. :)

[aaharvel]

Andrew hit the nail on the head. The changes are not so much in the volume increase, but rather in the effortlessness with which the music comes through. "Layered" is a perfect description.

right on. Not to mention that the current capability of the avr-235 is +/-35 or even the 140 (+/-25) would blow that Kenwood out of the water. Imo current is much more important than mere wattage.

The current on my amp is +/-100 (:eek: ). That's where that "layered" bit that I referred to earlier comes into play.

[Mike682]

right on. Not to mention that the current capability of the avr-235 is +/-35 or even the 140 (+/-25) would blow that Kenwood out of the water. Imo current is much more important than mere wattage.

Very true. My brother had a 100w/channel kenwood reciever. We did a shootout between his kenwood and my HK235. To simply state the results: my brother now owns an HK receiver.

[boxxkar]

Ok, after some re-wiring I think I am getting better results out of the HK AVR-130. I replaced the smaller monster speaker wire with 14 gauge RCA wire I got at Home Depot. It's was notably thicker than the monster cable. I also doubled checked the wires to make sure I hadn't crossed the plus and minus sides.

At some point I might consider replacing the HK, but I am going hold out for while. After reading several of the posts in this form, I've got some questions on receivers. Is there a price point that has a better return on your dollar than another. What manufacture has a good bang for your buck product? I while I was reading the forms I came across Outlaw. They claim to offer a better product for money, is it true?