upgrading to lis15s?

[andyisc00l]

OK -- heres my plan...it was gonna cost not much more to just buy LSI rather then RTI so here is what I want...

Rotel RMB-1075 - 5 channel 200wpc 4 ohm amp $800

LSI 15s - $800

LSI 9s - $600- although I just might buy 4 LSI 15s so I don't have to mess with stands and its really not that much more money.

LSI center - $350

Denon AVR-2106 - $400

either velodyne spl1200r ($1000) or SVS PB-12nsd ($650)

what do you guys think? Will the rotel be enough quality power with a denon? What do you guys think, good deal!? Should I buy something else instead!? Input!? I might just buy some lsi25s/lsi15s, big improvment???!...only reason I wouldn't feel guilty buying rotel, denon, lsi25s, lsi15s, lsi center, and spl1200r - is cuz it retails $9500 lol..and I can find it for roughly $4000 maybe a lil more :-p

[KrazyMofo24]

Where can you get the Lsi's for $800?

[andyisc00l]

From a dude selling them used...actually $850

more importantly will this amp work with the LSI series @ 4ohm? If anything I can just get some crown amps I've heard people buying LSI and crown and having amazing results...personally I'd rather have the rotel but I'll go crown if that won't work.

[KrazyMofo24]

That's a great price get em if you can.

[andyisc00l]

roger that..what do you think about powering them with a Crown XLS 202...I might buy 3 of those...I've heard on other forums of people using these amps with home theather and using them with LSI to be specific, and heard they made amazing sound quality, have you heard that?

[Sami]

Great price, get'em. I would get the Rotel or something else instead of the Crown's but that's IMO. Don't get towers as your surrounds, or put the 9's on stand, they need to be up on the wall much higher than that.

Why get a receiver as your prepro when you already are getting a powerful separate amp? Just get a separate prepro instead.

[McLoki]

I would get LSi7's instead of 9's for your rear speakers, and put the money you save to get a real Pre/Pro rather than an AVR for your preamp. Other that that - looks great with really good prices.

(the Rotel should run your LSi's just fine)

Michael

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

LSi15 - on a box (decorative of course) as surrounds would own.

[cfrizz]

Hi Andy & welcome!

That Rotel will power the LSI's with ease! The Denon will do just fine as a prepro, but I too would also look into getting a separate prepro. Check out Rotels & Outlaw Audio's prepros.

You will have one slamming system when you are done! Congrats on doing it right the first time round!

[reeltrouble1]

I would get an Anthem or a Parasound or a B&K or a Krell pre/pro with an HT by-pass along with a tubed pre so you can really get those 15's to shine with music.

RT1

[Monster Jam]

LSI 9s - $600- although I just might buy 4 LSI 15s so I don't have to mess with stands and its really not that much more money.

either velodyne spl1200r ($1000) or SVS PB-12nsd ($650)


Going with 4 LSi15s is what I did for the exact same reason you are considering. And I run the the SPL1200 series II as well. I love that sub!

Without getting into specifics, I drive all 4 LSi15s and an LSiC with an AVR that I'm sure everyone would universally say is underpowered. I haven't had any problems and I am satisfied with the sound. Would a $1000+ amp get me better sound? Probably, but I think I would start to see diminishing returns.

In short, any dedicated amp mentioned on this thread or elsewhere on these boards would be more than enough power to drive your speakers IMO.

[AndyGwis]

I'm flattered that you think I'm cool. . . really, it means a lot to me.

Sounds like a great set-up. Lsi15's sound like overkill for surrounds, but I'm sure they wouldn't hurt anything other than your wallet :) I would go with the Rotel or any comparable product (B&K are nice), and a Pre/Pro over the Denon; if you aren't going to use it's amps, why pay for them. You can get a better processor, similar features, and improved music quality from a true preamp at the same price or less.

[andyisc00l]

lol andy...

yea I think I might look at some preamps. So krell, b&k, anthem, and parasound? any model number suggestions? and I don't mind buying used as long as it looks brand new.

also should I be considering any other speaker in this price range other then the LSI series? I've checked out and read a bunch of speakers and for the money this seems to be a really good deal. I cannot however audition these; no one in minnesota carries them :'(. Thoughts and opinions?

also any other amp suggestions in the $800-1000 range? I'm getting an amp for sure because it won't be a system without 200wpc@4 ohms..I've heard stories of people going from 80watts to 200watts and say it completly changes the speaker.

I'm gonna go ahead and guess that any amp from 1995-present thats in good condition and is from krell/b&k/parasound/antehm and costs over $2000msrp is gonna be a good amp? I saw a good deal on a KRELL KAV-500.

[wingnut4772]

4 LSis 15s would look cool! Do it if you can swing it.

[andyisc00l]

I know thats half of it..ls15s would look friggen awesome..any good preamps with HDMI and reasonably priced? or is that not the type of thing preamps do?

[Joey_V]

The problem lies in acquiring another set of 15s for the same price as what you're getting the first pair for.

Dont forget, shipping is a biyotch when it comes to the 15s, and UPS isnt guaranteed to make it to your house in 1 piece.

[andyisc00l]

The problem lies in acquiring another set of 15s for the same price as what you're getting the first pair for.

Dont forget, shipping is a biyotch when it comes to the 15s, and UPS isnt guaranteed to make it to your house in 1 piece.

here and there I see them go for 800-850..I don't mind waiting a month or so..:-p...shipping does suck, but usually the cheapest LS9s are about $700 with shipping..so its not a terribly huge difference plus I'll use em for like 5-6 years..thats the main thing, but we'll see maybe I might just get some ls9s...good preamp models would be nice if anyone knows any!?>

why do the lsi25s have a max wattage of 300 watts with 3 speakers while the lsi15s have the same 3 speakers plus and 8in woofer to power and its 250watts max?

I think this rotel 9075 is my best option, $700-800 200wpc @ 4 ohms and known to be pretty good quality. Anyone have opinions on outlaws preamps? the 970?

And max wattage i'll get with lsi 5 speaker system is 200 watts max @ 4 ohms right?

[Joey_V]

Forget about wattage, seriously.

And regarding your comment about 15s vs 9s.... I have no doubt in my mind that 15s is better. If you didnt know, I'm in search of a pair of 15s or 9s myself, though I really like the 15s - I think I'm going to settle for 9s since they're easier to place at tweeter/ear level and are easier to ship and sell.

With the 15s, you should be worried about shipping damage moreso than the price of shipping itself.

[andyisc00l]

Forget about wattage, seriously.

And regarding your comment about 15s vs 9s.... I have no doubt in my mind that 15s is better. If you didnt know, I'm in search of a pair of 15s or 9s myself, though I really like the 15s - I think I'm going to settle for 9s since they're easier to place at tweeter/ear level and are easier to ship and sell.

With the 15s, you should be worried about shipping damage moreso than the price of shipping itself.

Whats the cheapest you've found 25s and 15s for? used/new?

I just found one on ebay if your looking for a pair of 15s..$800 + shipping, excelent condition, few days left. I think I still wanna audition ascend acoustics before I make the leap.

man these speakers look good.

although I really would love to have some speakers I could pump 200wpc @ 8 ohms in to..bah

[polkatese]

With the 15s, you should be worried about shipping damage moreso than the price of shipping itself.


Joey, although there is a potential of shipping damage, don't back off from owning 15 because of it. I have all the LSi's except 25, and in my opinion, 9 doesn't even close to 15 for 2 channels. Granted, 15's side sub is its downside, but still it has more balance, top down, that can't be matched by the 9.

My 15 came in a crate back in 2002, from an online seller, it was in one piece with no problem. So, if you ensure that shipping is proper (i.e. don't get the cheaper one, go with shippers such as Excel, Baxglobal, etc. then you'll be fine. It sets me back $200 last time)

Have fun!

[cheddar]

I'd go with the 15s over the 9s, unless you were wall mounting them on the side as has already been mentioned for proper surround placement. I don't own 9s, but the 15 is one mighty fine speaker and at that price gives you much more flexibility later on (seperate two-channel rig etc.) for just a little extra $.

Also, the 9s are heavy and long for a bookshelf. If you are mounting them high on the side, you will either have to build a sturdy shelf or get a fancy wall mount. The 7s would mount much easier with a keyhole/screw mount on the back.

[cfrizz]

Andy, Don't pay any attention to the Max wattage that is claimed on a speaker. I have some RTA-8T's the specs say max wttge 250. Well they are now getting 405 watts & THEY LOVE IT & SO DO I!

Look into getting a used 5 chnl 200wpc @ 8ohms Rotel, Parasound, Sunfire, Adcom, etc. When you hook up the LSI's they will be getting over 300wpc @ 4Ohms!

As for the Preamp, again look into getting a used Rotel, or a new Outlaw. You can't go wrong with either one!


here and there I see them go for 800-850..I don't mind waiting a month or so..:-p...shipping does suck, but usually the cheapest LS9s are about $700 with shipping..so its not a terribly huge difference plus I'll use em for like 5-6 years..thats the main thing, but we'll see maybe I might just get some ls9s...good preamp models would be nice if anyone knows any!?>

why do the lsi25s have a max wattage of 300 watts with 3 speakers while the lsi15s have the same 3 speakers plus and 8in woofer to power and its 250watts max?

I think this rotel 9075 is my best option, $700-800 200wpc @ 4 ohms and known to be pretty good quality. Anyone have opinions on outlaws preamps? the 970?

And max wattage i'll get with lsi 5 speaker system is 200 watts max @ 4 ohms right?

[cfrizz]

Audiogon is your friend!:D

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampsmult&1161072895
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?homeproc&1160858045
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampsmult&1161617514
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatran&1161567889

[andyisc00l]

Hey guys thanks for the help, you guys are certainly more friendly at Polk! :-)

Anyways, I decided I'm definatly getting polk LSI..a few questions..

1) The only thing that concerned me is the sub on the LSI 15s..is that gonna be a problem? is the bass overwhelming at all?

2) I'm going to be getting some Monster Cable Z2 speaker wire that I can aquire for $3 a foot (has wonderful reviews)..I don't want to buy "biamp" wire cuz its like $6 a foot, I was wondering if I can just take the 15ft long speaker wire, then take 2 pieces of 1ft speaker wire and solder them to the long wire and then hook them in to the lsi15s? Will I lose any quality in sound from this? (soldering)

3) And since I'm not bi-amping, will I lose any quality and will that sub be overpowering?

4) Also I'd love to get the rotel 1090..but the LSI center only accepts 200 watts @ 4 ohms RMS..I figure if I put in 300 (50% over rated rms) it will blow!? Am I wrong? Still I can't complain @ 200 watts RMS 4-ohm...thats still a ridicoulous amount of power for each speaker (1000rms @ 4ohm in total)

thanks for help!

(also with amps, do I just get RCAs to connect pre to amp..(5 of them)..?? if so what brand and model do you use!?)

I can get reallllly good deals on the monster stuff

So far unless things change:
Rotel 1075
Outlaw Audio 970
2 pairs LSI 15s
LSI center
Monster Cable Z2 speaker cable
Monster Cable M1000i RCAs (amp/preamp)
Monster Cable MLS1000 FO-1M (fiber optic)
Either SVS PB12-NSD, SVS PB-12Plus, HSU VTF-3 MK 2, Velodyne DLS-5000r, or Velodyne spl-1200r
Denon DVD-1930CI DVD player
already have Monster Cable HTS 3500 MKII power center (I think thats right)
And I have the Monster Cable MSB1000SW-12 (M-Series Bass 1000 sub cord)

Personally I love monster cuz its pretty quality stuff and I can usually find it dirt cheap compared to its msrp :-)

I have the M1000is have them now and they are friggen amazing (2.1)..

[andyisc00l]

oops

[2+2]

andy, I would pass on the RMB1075 to drive LSi15s...been there, done that....look to getting at least an RB-1080 (or equivalent or even RMB 1095)....1075 may be great for the smaller drivers but is not enough for the woofer on the 15s....

[McLoki]

1) The only thing that concerned me is the sub on the LSI 15s..is that gonna be a problem? is the bass overwhelming at all?
The bass can get a little sloppy on the LSi 15's without good amplification and, as with any speaker, attention to placement.
2) I'm going to be getting some Monster Cable Z2 speaker wire that I can aquire for $3 a foot (has wonderful reviews)..I don't want to buy "biamp" wire cuz its like $6 a foot, I was wondering if I can just take the 15ft long speaker wire, then take 2 pieces of 1ft speaker wire and solder them to the long wire and then hook them in to the lsi15s? Will I lose any quality in sound from this? (soldering) You can just replace the metal jumper plates (that connect the top and bottom terminals on the speaker) with some decent speaker wire.

I won't get into a speaker wire argument here other than to say many consider monster overpriced for what you get. If it is what you want, thats fine, but you may want to look at other options as well. (including used wire over on audiogon.com)

3) And since I'm not bi-amping, will I lose any quality and will that sub be overpowering?
Nope, you are better off with a single really good amp rather than multiple marginal ones imo.
4) Also I'd love to get the rotel 1090..but the LSI center only accepts 200 watts @ 4 ohms RMS..I figure if I put in 300 (50% over rated rms) it will blow!? Am I wrong? Still I can't complain @ 200 watts RMS 4-ohm...thats still a ridicoulous amount of power for each speaker (1000rms @ 4ohm in total)

I have 500 watts/channel going to my 15's, LSiC and LSi7's with no problem. It is much easier to blow a speaker with not enough power than it is to blow it with to much. Don't worry about it at all untill you get double or more the recommended power. (even then, just be mindful of what you are doing and you should be fine.)

Michael

[cfrizz]

Yes you are wrong!:D Your speakers will not blow, they will soak up all of that power & demand more!!! Buy the biggest most powerful amp/s that you can & you will be very happy! (See my earlier response to you on this question.)

Looks like you're putting together a killer system, congrats!

4) Also I'd love to get the rotel 1090..but the LSI center only accepts 200 watts @ 4 ohms RMS..I figure if I put in 300 (50% over rated rms) it will blow!? Am I wrong? Still I can't complain @ 200 watts RMS 4-ohm...thats still a ridicoulous amount of power for each speaker (1000rms @ 4ohm in total)

thanks for help!.

[andyisc00l]

OK - so let me get this straight --

your saying your POSITIVE that if I buy a rotel 1090 and go 50 watts RMS over the Lsi15s (250 rec.) and 100 watts RMS over the Lsi center (200 rec) I will not blow my system if I use this for, lets say, 6 years?

I don't want to spend $2k+ and have my system die from too much power!

[McLoki]

I have 500 watts/channel going to my 15's, LSiC and LSi7's with no problem. It is much easier to blow a speaker with not enough power than it is to blow it with to much.

That is what I can say and be positive about. You can blow any speaker, but you will have to really work at it with a larger amp compared to a smaller one.

My 15's are rated at 250 watts, LSiC at 200 and LSi7's at 150. I currently have a much larger amp than that that they are hooked up to and they sound great.

Think of it this way. The speed limit on the highway is 65. What car would run better and longer on the highway - one that maxes out at 65 or one that maxes out at 120? How would you not get a ticket in the faster one?

Its a goofy analogy, but you get the point....

Michael

[ohskigod]

OK - so let me get this straight --

your saying your POSITIVE that if I buy a rotel 1090 and go 50 watts RMS over the Lsi15s (250 rec.) and 100 watts RMS over the Lsi center (200 rec) I will not blow my system if I use this for, lets say, 6 years?

I don't want to spend $2k+ and have my system die from too much power!



overpowering is far less dangerous than underpowering. I got 500 watts going to my 15's and 2x300 watt monoblocks biamped to the center. no problems. just dont drive it to distortion, thats all. distortion from underpowerng (i.e. amp clips) will toast speakers far more quickly than distortion from overpowering.


Rotel 1090 will be perfecty fine with the LSi's, just use the prudent judgement with the volume knob as you would with any other amplifier, power rating regardless.

your gonna dig the LSi's in home theater

think about going with the 990 over the 970 with the pre/pro. I love my 950 (older model), but I have heard that the difference is worth the extra cheddar

[okiepolkie]

The 1075 would be great for LSi7's, but the 15's need more power.

Also, (and this is a personal opinion) look into something besides the Monster Cable speaker wire. Look at www.signalcable.com, or something similar.

[andyisc00l]

Heck I don't mind putting in 250-300watts as long as there isn't an increase in risk........

have people reported damage from more watts and has polk ever commented on using more watts?

[andyisc00l]

The 1075 would be great for LSi7's, but the 15's need more power.

Also, (and this is a personal opinion) look into something besides the Monster Cable speaker wire. Look at www.signalcable.com, or something similar.

only reason I'm looking at monter cable is cuz I can get $200 rcas for $30

and the rated power on the lsi15s is 250 watts RMS max, why would they say 250 max and then 200watts isn't enough power?

[ohskigod]

there is a general school of thought that the LSi's reward you for more power. I experienced that myself, hence the silly amount of power I'm sending to them.

[andyisc00l]

there is a general school of thought that the LSi's reward you for more power. I experienced that myself, hence the silly amount of power I'm sending to them.

can anyone confirm that they've used around 300watts @ 4ohms for the center channel for over 1 year!? I'm just scared ! lol why would they say 200watts max when 300 is ok! That's pretty stupid of them to do...!

[andyisc00l]

And either the oultaw 7500 or the rotel 1095!?!? Which one?!?!

[cheddar]

If you can get monster stuff at a discount, why not just get an mpa 2250 and 3250 to drive your system. That's what I have now for my LSis and they rock. It's 400W at 4ohms and yes I've had the set-up over a year without blowing the speakers. But if you really understood what usually blows speakers, you wouldn't need this assurance.

A receiver that loses control of the power at 30W can blow your speakers far more easily than an amplifier that is large and in control all the way up to 400W. In everyday listening, you probably won't go above 10-20W at very loud volume levels. If you abuse your ears, you may be able to get it up past 100W maybe 200W at ear bleed/deafening levels. So in reality, the real danger would be trying to push a 100W receiver to loud volume when it would probably clip below that rating.

[andyisc00l]

If you can get monster stuff at a discount, why not just get an mpa 2250 and 3250 to drive your system. That's what I have now for my LSis and they rock. It's 400W at 4ohms and yes I've had the set-up over a year without blowing the speakers. But if you really understood what usually blows speakers, you wouldn't need this assurance.

A receiver that loses control of the power at 30W can blow your speakers far more easily than an amplifier that is large and in control all the way up to 400W. In everyday listening, you probably won't go above 10-20W at very loud volume levels. If you abuse your ears, you may be able to get it up past 100W maybe 200W at ear bleed/deafening levels. So in reality, the real danger would be trying to push a 100W receiver to loud volume when it would probably clip below that rating.

lol well they still have a combined retail of $5500:-p

I'll probably just find an outlaw or rotel that puts out 300+ watts rms @ 4 ohm...that should be enough right?!?! I sure hope so..

maybe I'll try to find some i can find the $2500 for $700 now new, if I could find the other one for $1000 it might work...I've heard rave reviews... bah $2500 for the both thats too much money :-(

[McLoki]

can anyone confirm that they've used around 300watts @ 4ohms for the center channel for over 1 year!? I'm just scared ! lol why would they say 200watts max when 300 is ok! That's pretty stupid of them to do...!
I have had my setup for a year and was running LSi7's for my front speakers for a year before that.

Amp is rated at 500wpc@ 4 ohms W/ 1100 watt peaks.

I did call polk before I purchased my amp and they told me that they had only recieved a couple of calls of people blowing speakers from to much power. They recieve calls all the time from people running smaller AVR's that blow speakers.

You will be fine. This is one case where size really does matter. :)

Michael

[cfrizz]

Let me put it this way Andy. If you blast your speakers with all that power, your eardrums will rupture before your speakers blow!:eek: Then it won't matter how loud you play them!:D

[andyisc00l]

If I were to buy retail speakers then polk is the way to go..but I've been hearing about "DIY" kits...does anyone have any ideas on how good a $1000 kit will sound (thats how much I'll pay for polk lis15s)...?

[andyisc00l]

Wow 2500 watts rms @ 4 ohm for 5 speakers is ridconcoulous..lol how does it sound? I'm guessing pretty friggen good..

[McLoki]

Wow 2500 watts rms @ 4 ohm for 5 speakers is ridconcoulous..lol how does it sound? I'm guessing pretty friggen good..
The amp is awesome. To be honest, it is just revealing the next weak link in the chain. For me that is my pre-amp (receiver). I have heard my system with a decent pre-amp it is unbelievable.

I have a passive subwoofer that runs off the 6th channel of the amp so I am actually using it as a 3000-watt amp. (If I turn it on and off to many times to quickly (like four times in less than 2 min or so) I blow the 20-amp breaker it is plugged into in my house).

Like someone else mentioned though. I rarely use that much power. I would guess on average I am only using 2-10 watts (if that much). The difference is when there are peaks (explosions and such), many amps and AVRs will distort. Mine doesn’t.

Michael

[faster100]

I doubt that thing is getting anywhere near 2500 watts or 3000.. peaks i can see in the hundreds, maybe.. I'm sure its a nice amp but that kinda wattage would blow just about any speaker

edit: i didnt see where he was adding each channel together to get to the 2500 watts,

[McLoki]

SPECIFICATIONS-

Output Power....... .350 WPC/8 OHMS (typ. 450W)
...........................500 WPC/4 OHMS (typ. 670W)
...........................1000 WATTS MONO (1400 @ 4 ohms)

THD..................... <.015% (full power 15-20Khz)
TIM..................... <.015% at full rated power
Freq. Response...... 2-180 kHz + 0, -3 dB
Input Imped.......... 47K Unbal, 15K Balanced
Configuration......... 3,4,5 or 6 Channel

Dynamic headroom... >3.5 dB! (Typ. 850 watts @ 8 ohms, 1100 watts @ 4 ohms)
Peak Current......... 120 amps per channel (720 amps total) .1sec pulse, .5 ohms
Hum/noise............ -110 dB unweighted
Damping Factor .....Over 1000 (!) (10Hz-1kHz)

Cooling ................Convection w/ on demand silent fan
Weight................ 70 lbs
Dimensions ...........19"Wx8"Hx16"D
AC Voltage........... 100,120,220,240
Recom.Service...... 20 to 30Amps-100,120V (will run adequately on 120V 15 amp service). ...........................20 to 30 Amps-220,240V

[faster100]

I don't doubt its a nice amp.. but specs are specs..

did you see the page on receivers online, half didnt do half of what the specs said.

and the linked page to your amp, they state you must have 1100 watts for peaks even if you use 10 watts normally.. in HT.. so we have all had it wrong useing 100 -300 watts :D

No big deal, was just saying i doubt it ever gets near 500 watts for each channel im sure.. all channels on.

[McLoki]

I don't doubt its a nice amp.. but specs are specs..

did you see the page on receivers online, half didnt do half of what the specs said.

and the linked page to your amp, they state you must have 1100 watts for peaks even if you use 10 watts normally.. in HT.. so we have all had it wrong useing 100 -300 watts :D

No big deal, was just saying i doubt it ever gets near 500 watts for each channel im sure.. all channels on.

You are right. The specs are just company created specs, no better or worse (from an accuracy standpoint) than any other companies specifictions.

With my 88db efficient speakers, they are only 76db efficient at my 12-14 foot listening distance. (every time the speaker to ear distance doubles, the efficency drops by 6 db) This does not take into effect coupling of multiple speakers or corner loading the system (both would increase the efficiency of the speakers)

1 watt - 76db
2 watts - 79db
4 watts - 82db
8 watts - 85db
16 watts - 88db
32 watts - 91db
64 watts - 94db
128 watts - 97db
256 watts - 100db
512 watts - 103db
1024 watts - 106db
2048 watts - 109db
4096 watts - 112db
8192 watts - 115db


As you can see, I cannot play at reference level without blowing my speakers. (or at least clipping the amp) The loudest I have ever tried to play is -6db. Once you get over 100db though, the power requirements are pretty huge and get bigger fast. (of course this is for peaks, not continuous ratings...)

Michael

Edit - Reference level is listed as 105db peaks from any channel and 115db peaks from the LFE channel (which, in my case, is also running off my amp) all measured from the listening position.

[Ruin]

Just because you tosss a couple of hundred watts per channel amp at the LSis doesn't mean you need to use them. When people are rocmending a powerfull amp they are recomending it because driving an amp at 50% of its rated power gives less distortion than running it at 90% of its rated power. You pull 100watts/channel out of a 110watt/channel amp you are going to hear distortion in all likelyhood compared to pulling that same 100watts.channel of of a 200watt/channel amp.

So, dont USE all that extra power because yes, there is a limit to what the speakers can stand. However, given the limits of how loud you are likely to really listen to them, you are more likely to blow them with heavy distortion from an underpowered system than you are from overpowering them at low distortion.

Ruin

[Drumingman]

Let's all say it again.:rolleyes: