Tube amps! Why use them?

[nascarmann]

This is something I know very little or next to nothing about. What are the pros and cons with tube amps? How do power ratings compare? Is 50wpc tube the same as 50wpc SS? It would seem to me the 50 wpc tube must punch harder? Will it? Someone jump in here and tell me about tubes? (madmax, BDT, Russmann, hoosier21 and the rest)

[phuz]

From what I understand, tube amps have a warmer, richer sound. They also look cooler. :)

[mantis]

I think tubes sound more natural on most speakers, not all of them but most.Tubes always sounded warmer to me as well.Good drive with lots of reserves.Also can calm down bright speakers.
Tubes you have to maintain, buying new tubes about once a year depending on how much you run them.They also sound better after they have been on for awhile.They need to be hot inorder to sound fantastic.
I wouldn't buy a amp just because it was tubes or not.Sound quality with your speakers"Mating"is how you buy an amp.
Solid state and tubes today are very good.Not as many tube amps on the market as solid state.
They do look cool don't they!

[Aaron]

Disclaimer: I'm far from the expert here, but I have a bit of knowledge on the subject.


What are the pros and cons with tube amps?
pros:
- the "tube sound" (warmer, smoother, etc.)
- cool factor

cons:
- tubes wear out
- amp has to warm up to get optimal sound quality


How do power ratings compare? Is 50wpc tube the same as 50wpc SS?
No. I'm not sure that there is a magic conversion number. It's pretty rare that you'll see any tube amps above 100W, and if you do, they'll cost you a bundle. It seems like decently powerful tube amps run in the 30-50W range.

Aaron

[gidrah]

Yes, tubes are warmer. Then again I've never heard an acoustical live show that I would characterize as "warm".

Tubes have are known to be able to drive difficult loads (ie. 2 ohm loads) and produce a soft-clipping. This is usually not detrimental and can be treated as "oh well, it's just not there". SS usually hard-clip. They continue to send the full force of music and wind-up blowing a speaker. Most of us will agree that most speakers are blown by inadequate amplifiers (they clip before the sound wave is completed) that have no dynamic range. My 100wt (x)rcvr blew a 175w speaker, while a 30w speaker didn't even distort. I've never heard of anybody blowing a speaker on tubes.

I've heard people say that X watts tubes is equal to 2 or 3 watts SS. This may be attributed to the extended dynamic range.

All speakers have a continuously changing impedence. Damn that nominable BS. Some vary more or less than others. This degree of variance can dictate the benefits of a quality amp. The greater the variance the more a tube or expensive SS amp is needed to compensate. Theoretically a speaker with a straight impedence would sound identical with any amplifier able to drive it to it's full potential (shear watttage).

Depending on your usage, some tubes can last a number of years. But I would suggest something that can be easily replaced. Don't buy something that can only be replaced with NOS. Electro-harmonix makes some splendid replacement tubes.

[RuSsMaN]

Because we all know tubes are 'cool'

-R

[Ron-P]

The Tubes are cool. Remember such great songs as; "She's a Beauty" and "Talk to You Later"?


Peace Out~:D

[RuSsMaN]

I have the 45rpm single for each of those, pure GREATNESS.

Cheers,
Russ

[hoosier21]

I have the LP's, I have to get a turntable, I have 5 boxes of 12" wasting away.

[HBombToo]

Nascarmann, I know a little about Tubes because my first job out of school was with Litton Industries as a Power Tube Engineer. What a tough,complicated and process oriented this OLD technology is... but proven and reliable if done right.

The reason we hear cleaner, warmer and lower noise by the tube is that a tube requires no bias voltage to amplify, "It is always ready". In a transistor we dope the wafer with either plus or minus dopants and the Bias, or voltage potential across the junction is what causes electron flow. As the sine wave crosses through 0 Volts within the bias region the semiconductor shuts off. So in an AB type amp or Push/Pull there is a brief moment in which nothing happens. "Distortion of the signal". Without getting into some really cookie stuff, in short, "HATS OFF TO OLD TECHNOLOGY".

HOPE THIS HELPS A LITTLE:)

[RuSsMaN]

Dopants, Bias. Well, I'm totally clear on tubes now....

Dumb it up a little HBomb, peel the onion, break it on down....

Cheers,
Russ

[HBombToo]

I have some meeting I have to go to but after work I'll drink a 6pack and jump back in...

[TroyD]

Dopants and Bias......hey weren't they drafted by the Celtics a few years ago?

BDT

[nascarmann]

I have some meeting I have to go to but after work I'll drink a 6pack and jump back in...

Yeah,

You got sum splanin to do

[madmax]

Tubes?

Pros:
You can hear many more small sounds (detail) at the same time.
They sound better when you look at them.
They respond well to tweaks.
They scare off the normal Best Buy audiophile.
They warm the heart and the hands on a cold day.

Cons:
You have to wait 30 to 40 minutes before they really sound good.
They should be replaced after about 3000 hours.
The AC comes on more often.
You can hear the SS distortion clearly after a good listening session with tubes.

madmax

[Aaron]

You're bringing back memories of my EE classes. No!!!

Aaron

[jcaut]

Hey! I had a few of those EE classes myself! Aside from a dopant here and a bias there, I thought that was a pretty good explanation. Hmm.. Maybe I DO need a tube amp....

What about a class A, or non-switching SS amp? Is the purpose to emulate a "tube" sound? Don't tube amps generally have a low damping factor, making it difficult to produce tight, hard-hitting bass? Just curious. I could probably research that and come up with my own answer, but I'm lazy and figure it's easier to just ask.


Jason

[HBombToo]

Do not turn your tubes OFF!!! Why? because thermal variations may cause a leak in the glass over time...
Power cycling a tube is good for the manufacturer but bad for the user.
A Tube has a cathode which becomes a source for electrons due to heat. Its called a thermionic emmitter. A substance such as Barium Oxide, to list only 1, on a sheet of say Nickle becomes a great cathode. As the potential from the grid, or multiple grids, is applied, from the input signal, electrons due to the EMF move in the direction of the +Plate. "High current low noise AMPS are a result." There are differences between quatrodes and pentodes as to the grid geometry but they all fundamentally work the same. The whole deal is... A tube is always ready when HOT, NO waite time, and the more we turn the tube on/off the more stress we put in the glass. If oxigen gets in the glass the tube is HISTORY or, say, the barium oxide is no longer an emmitter.

I just got off my hall pass in which many BEERS were consumed so please excuse my rampage.

Hbomb

[LiquidSound]

Yumm..beer.
Yumm..tubes. (http://www.enjoythemusic.com/tubelust/)

[LiquidSound]

No idea of the sound quality, but wow.

[nascarmann]

HBombToo

Your knowledge is amazing in this area. Could you try explaining this as if you were talking to..........oh lets say a 7 year old so I can keep up!

BDN

[HBombToo]

LiquidSound, That is a great link! Soon, I hope that the traveling will stop and I can buy a house with my OWN man cave. My man cave will be called the Pentagon, with raised ceilings so that no 90 angles are in the room.
I will go with TUBES as long as the POOL don't bankrupt me.

[madmax]

So lets say the advertised life of my tubes is 3000 hours. If I leave them on continuousely vs turning them on for 6 hours a day how long will they last? Will there be any benifit from leaving them on? Lets say the 3000 hour value is considering they will always be powered. That would be 125 days. At 6 hours per day that would be 500 days. What do you think the rating is based on, always powered or intermittant use?
madmax

[LiquidSound]

I say the theater has priority. The pool can wait.
When you say 'raised ceilings' to get rid of 90 deg. corners, exactly what do you plan on modifying structurally?? Or are you building a room from scratch?

[HBombToo]

Nascarmann... I don't know what to say because the last thing I intended was to write a useless post. I just wanted to share my experience... I guess the best thing that I could say about Tubes are in my opinion, for a PreAmps is, TUBES are the BEST. " No Distortion". (I was a tube engineer but that was a long time ago....)

HBomb

[nascarmann]

Nascarmann... I don't know what to say because the last thing I intended was to write a useless post.

Was not saying it was useless. Just hard for my big heed and little mind to follow.....:D

[nascarmann]

She-at! Have I offended someone esle?:(

[ziplin]

Had old Audio Research D-100 Tube Amp, 100 watts Per channel. Eight tubes that glowed warmly in the dark. Sounded warm and seductive. Then came time to think about replaceing the Tubes ( about a year and a half of continueous use) Andy's vintage tube service in MN. offered new old stock tubes of a price tag of $700.00 for all. Broken hearted I realized the maintence of the Amp was much more than I could continue to keep up with.
Sure I miss the sound, beauty, and aura of the tubes, but to tell the truth I think a lot of todays solid state electronics have improved over the years to actually give tubes a bit of a run for the money.:)

[HBombToo]

Nascarmann, No offense taken here bud, I just want to help when I can.

LiquidSound
I would hope to build the room from scratch. "I Hope". The wife likes the idea so maybe:)

A Tubes Life
When we rated the life of a tube it was under maximum load. The 2 mechanisms that are responsible for a tubes demise is a leak or the cathode shoots craps. If we leave them on not under load then the cathode is in a quiescent state and no loss of cathode material. As we turn the tube on and off the expansion/contraction of the glass can leed to a leak.

In our test units for some of the real high power stuff we never shut the modulators down, just let them glow nice and pretty like, and the tubes lasted for 4 or 5 times the rated life.


I think that ziplin makes a great point regarding Tubes vrs Semiconductors. The relatively new mosfet technologies really, really good stuff.

[mantis]

this is a effin good post........I love the **** out of it.
Yeah man thats what I'm talking about!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HBombToo,
Kepp it coming man ............I'm sucking it all up......my man!!
Leave that alone you sick F%%%S

[nascarmann]

The relatively new mosfet technologies really, really good stuff.


HBombToo

The mosfet technology is good if you are not building a high powered amp.....and bipolar is still the technology used in most high end units. Cost is the biggest factor with the mosfet against bipolar....less engineering costs with the mosfet? Mosfet amps will not drive low impendence loads like bipolar amps will at high power levels......if you intend to drive speakers such as the SDA-SRS or 1.2's a mosfet amp would not be the right choice IMO.....they do not like low impendece loads......

[OrangeToupee]

Mantis, what was that last line of your post for? Was that your other personality responding angrily to the other personality, for being complimentary to HBombToo?

[madmax]

That WAS rather strange. I wonder as well. Cmon, spill it!
madmax

[Aaron]

Man, you guys are sllllooooowww. Reread Mantis' post with your head in the gutter. You'll figure it out.

Aaron

[madmax]

I thought about it later after posting and I figured it out. And we are the sick F%%%s??? Now if Micah had posted it I know everyone would have hopped on the gutter bandwagon but...
madmax

[Aaron]

That's true, Max. Still, you have to watch out for that Russman character. He tends to put a dirty slant on everything. ;)

Aaron

[mantis]

Man a joke just dosen't have the same ring if you have to explain it....
so here it goes from the horses mouth(or ass),
I was wanting more Info on tube's ,some of the reasons why they respond they way they do over mosfet is a mystery to me.I have played guitar since I was 9 and always loved my Fender tube amps over all mosfet amps I have played threw.In the home stereo world, I have found for the most part this to be as well true.
When I posted that last line, I thought of all the perferted thing's that could be posted after it...thats why I wanted the sick people to not read into it from the gutter .
But the way you guys took it was funny........angry side???thats good!!

[HBombToo]

I think you guys are Right on the money regarding impedance. A tube don't care about impedance, it sits there nice and happy and quiet like and when a voltage is applied it FIRES UP.

Tubes are funny little devices so lets break this thing down to a very simple tube type, the Triode. A triode is made up by 3 components, the Anode "Positive" or what we want our output voltage to be, the Cathode "Ground and where electron come from" and a Grid in which the input voltage being amplified is applied. This configuration would only amplify positive grid voltages and is for explanation only. Man... some Physics professor out there would probably like to kick my ass, but I'm trying here.

CATHODE
The Cathode as mentioned is refered to as a thermionic emmitter, this is the tough part. Simply put, when we apply heat to the cathode material, "Thermionic", electrons bound by molecular forces of that material are say, now available. Without the heat the electrons are stuck in their position. This is refered to in quantum mechanics as the lowest energy state. So simply put, We just created a big resevoir of electrons in the cathode region by applying heat. Example, in a fully charged battery, ions, the negative, are a result of the interaction between sufuric acid and water mix and the lead is the plus. We can compare, i guess, the lead in a battery to the anode of the tube except in a battery there is no grid. In a battery we just have a potential difference across the solution to the lead.

ANODE
In amplifiers we always talk about power, what is the power out, peak or rms but in tubes lets look at voltage. Why, because power and voltage are related by V*V/R so it will just be easier to see whats going on. In my past life we only looked at tube power because we were always concerned that the damn thing could melt, so power of a tube is related to the Plate Voltage or the Anode times currrent flow.

Just for the sake of discussion here... Lets put 100 volts across the Anode or Plate of the tube. This 100 volts is sitting across the tube but the output of your amp is 0, nothing is happening because there is no current. Why no current??? We have 100V applied, confusing stuff but waite? the cathode is sitting nice and hot with all the electrons in the bucket but there is a big shield preventing any current flow or electron movement.

The big shield is the grid.

Now comes the interesting part.
GRID
We apply a low voltage signal to the grid, lets say 1 volt, electorns are now accelerated toward the grid from the big bucket, the cathode. these electrons make there way to the grid but now suddenly start feeling the potential from the Anode, or Plate and an Avelanche occurrs. Huge amount of electrons now rush to the anode and now we have current because we have moving electrons.

The electron flow did not care what the output impedance of the device was, hence a tube don't care about output impedance.
So long story short here... we converted 1 volt to 100 with all the electrons/current necessary.

Now here is were a tube is really cool. We are still talking about a Triode.
The output impedance, or the speakers, is an RLC network. The overall impedance is the sum of the real resistance and imaginary resistance. What the hell is imaginary resistance??? It is a mathimatical description that sums the inductive and capacitive reactance of the inductors and capacitors. Now as the RLC circuit is excited, by all the voltage and current from the tube, any negative mismatch in impedance from the real and imaginary will cause a ring in the overall circuit.*** If Real and Imaginary impedance are equal we have 100% power transfer.***If we have a sightly negative match in resistance the circuit will ring negative. This negative reflection in potential is potential NOISE/distortion. But, NOW check it out... The negative voltage reflectoin from the load is now across our little triode and what happens. Well what do to negatives do???? They repell each other and inside the tube electrons flow back toward the cathode and, WHAM the circuit shuts down. WOW this **** is cool, we just eliminated any sort of ringing in the output. Nice clean signal amplification and nature built in Noise reduction.
If Dolby only new what god new about noise reduction what are HT systems would sound like today. HE,HE HE,HE

Quatrodes and Pentodes funtion nearly like what is described but the overall circuit gets more complicated regarding how we handle the voltages. I hope this helps from the past HBomb rantings and if i could answer up to what i have posted, I'll try.

Regards
Henry

[WA2KBZ]

With single ended tube PA's operated Class A (full sine wave out for full sine wave in, minimal distortion, tube always conducts, with grid bias set at midle of most linear portion of the curve) the crossover distortion that Hbombtoo describes is non-existant. There are ways to minimize this in solid state amplifiers, but single ended amps never have it to begin with. For more power from PA, 2 tubes (or more) can be operated in parellel, for 2 X power out, still class A. Push pull (Class B) has a bit more distortion, but has the advantage of suppressing second harmonic, aiding THD specs. In this mode only 1 tube at a time conducts (one is on with positive portion of sine wave from input, other on negative, via a single ended to push pull transformer). In either case, tubes run well within CCS (continuous comercial service) can last for years. Besides over current ("boils off" excessive cathode coating material, the main source of electrons) the Achilles heel weakness is over fil. volts; even a fraction of a volt will greatly reduce tube life. Running regulated DC on filiaments not only reduces a source of hum, but can extend life greatly. I have a receiver that was always run on batteries that works fine with orig. tubes, from 1934!. Tubes can also recover from brief output line shorts, which transistors cant without elaborate protection circuits.

Karl

[madmax]

Hey,
A new member. And a ham at that! Welcome. I understand if the tube amp uses a rectifier tube rather than a set of diodes for the power supply the tubes last much longer because of the slow power up. Just thought I would throw that in. The rectifier also gives the sound a little sag because it cannot supply current as rapidly as a semi-conductor diode does. This may be some of the "tube sound" people have been talking about.
madmax

[jmasterj]

Hey nascarmann, I got lost in all that, but I heard someone say
let's keep it simple. Your question if I'm not mistaken was " Tube
Amps ! Why Use Them? The answer is that some people think they sound better than solid state equipment. There exist a group of individuals known of as audiophiles who swear by them. They don't use SS or buy CD's, They own super expensive set ups, and use component turntables where the cartridge can cost
as much as some of our entire systems. They listen to 180 gram
original master recordings 1/2 speed mastered on virgin vinyl. and believe vacuume tube sound adds the" breath of life" to the recordings. They don't do home theater or multi-channel 15 or 30
watts is more than adequate, because it's not the quantity, but the quality of sound they seek. Why buy tubes? it's a matter of taste, and economics. Me, I'm solid state all the way. I love my CD's.

[madmax]

Originally posted by jmasterj
Why Use Them? The answer is that some people think they sound better than solid state equipment. There exist a group of individuals known of as audiophiles who swear by them. They don't use SS or buy CD's, They own super expensive set ups, and use component turntables where the cartridge can cost
as much as some of our entire systems. They listen to 180 gram
original master recordings 1/2 speed mastered on virgin vinyl. and believe vacuume tube sound adds the" breath of life" to the recordings. They don't do home theater or multi-channel 15 or 30
watts is more than adequate, because it's not the quantity, but the quality of sound they seek.

Just a few thoughts,
1: Anyone here can achieve the component list I have, sure it is more than entry level but all was over 50% less than list on ebay and ends up being less than what some people spend on a receiver.
2: "Know they can sound better than Solid State, not think"
3: LP's annoy me with their RIAA equalization curve, at least to this point. I buy CD's (and CD accessories).
4: Audiophile, but it is a different set of standards than you (or I) do, or used to think it was.
5: Know that tubes makes the performance sound "real".
6: Am very much into HT
7: It still is quantity, if the 60 watt per channel didn't deliver almost as much as my 500 watt monsters I would dump them.


I am not arguing, but recently I've heard the low power, $355 to $650 (ebay) Jolida tube amps beat the crap out of my Carver, Sunfire and Soundcraftsmen amps.

To me this is all new. When I bought the first tube amp a year ago, I thought "I know this is a joke but it will look cool in the bedroom". What I found was that it put my $2500 plus SS amps to shame and I got my first tube amp for about $500. My second one was $355 because the guy thought it was defective. Seems he put the wrong tubes in the wrong sockets. I'm as surprised as the rest of you guys. I sure am glad I took the chance though.
madmax

[nascarmann]

One day I hope I have the extra coins to try a tube.....right now the barrel is dry? OK....there's still some corn, but no coins....:D

[jcaut]

One day I hope I have the extra coins to try a tube..

Me too.

Thanks HBomb and WA2KBZ for the technical explanations. The physics professors may want to kick your ass, but some of the rest of us who skipped out of physics class appreciate your efforts.

Jason

[jmasterj]

madmax001

You've got me thinking differently now. I've been going crazy trying to decide which way I want to go with this next up-grade. I was torn between getting a Outlaw 755 5X200 for $1,299. + shipping or going with this Carver 250X2 I can get for $500. I think now I'll just leave my multi-channel set up as it is, and concentrate on building a separate two channel system using tubes. I remember years ago I use to go to this little stereo place and the owner would play a McIntosh that was 50 watts a channel and it blew my Sansui with over twice the power away. I'll keep my eyes open for some Jolida or other reasonably priced
tubes. If you see anything post it. Iv'e got some homework to do.

[cturner]

So let me ask. I have a Carver TFM 35 on my 3.1TL's I'm looking for an amp for my newly aquired Martin Logan Sl3's. Would a tube amp be good for these electrostatics? They say EL's are different than a resistive type speaker, and they need a high voltage swing amp, where as a resistive driver (Polk's) need an amp capable of high current output. Am I even in the ballpark or just talking out my a$$?

Thanks.

[burdette]

Actually, hot/cold cycling is bad for MOST electronic gear. I worked as a reliability engineer in aerospace defense and we put every design through electronic and environmental cycling. We had to test not only the on/off of the electronics, but also had to take into account the extreme variations in temperature that would occur naturally (think of a plane sitting ready to go in the Saudi dessert vs. ready to go in Anchorage, as well as the cold temps at altitude from wherever it originated). The rule of thumb is to keep your gear as cool as possible.. i.e. heat kills. I'm not recommending keeping SS audio gear on all the time - I honestly don't know if I've ever read that recommendation, but this is all connected to why you want to keep the electronics well ventilated when it *is* on... keep it cool and minimize the hot as well as the hot/cold cycling.

After that I worked for the Plasma Wave Space Physics group at a 'major' university. We had to take our boxes to Goddard for electronic and environmental testing as well. There, considering the gear was going into space, we put the boxes in the deep deep freeze chamber and did performance tests. Also cycled them through hot/cold sessions (checking performance at each point), not only to see if the performance was consistent at the various temps, but also to see where variations occurred to try to pinpoint combinations of component/signal that were going to be most likely to fail at temp.

By the way... fact to bore your friends with... "fail safe" does not mean a backup, which is how it is often used. Fail-safe means that when the unit DOES fail, it does so in a way that can not cause harm. When it fails, it enters a state that is harmless - for example a high voltage component with a fail-safe would automatically cut the high voltage *whenever* it failed, so that it was 'safe' at that point.

[burdette]

Originally posted by jmasterj
They don't use SS or buy CD's, They own super expensive set ups, and use component turntables where the cartridge can cost
as much as some of our entire systems. They listen to 180 gram
original master recordings 1/2 speed mastered on virgin vinyl. and believe vacuume tube sound adds the" breath of life" to the recordings. They don't do home theater or multi-channel 15 or 30
watts is more than adequate, because it's not the quantity, but the quality of sound they seek. Why buy tubes? it's a matter of taste, and economics. Me, I'm solid state all the way. I love my CD's.


This has always struck me as more an unwillingness to change couched as the old way being 'better.' Rhetorical question here.. but is there *honestly* something better about physical grooves in vinyl that makes it inherently better for sound reproduction.. or is that just the technology that existed at the time? I've heard people as you describe say that one problem with digital media is that you don't get the pops and hiss so it isn't 'original'.. excuse me, but I don't think the artist was popping and hissing when he made the recording.

More than once in this thread, people have commented that tubes "sound" a certain way.. warmer or softer or whatever. Um... doesn't a change to the original signal have a name.. i.e. distortion? Perhaps they *like* the changes.. but if the equipment is changing the sound from how the artist originally performed it, I have a hard time describing that as better. Why not just buy warm speakers? Why are there a multitude of speaker companies out there, each advertising, essentially, that they *reproduce* the signal with accuracy?? Granted, the physical properties of different drivers handle different types of signals better, which is why some speakers are 'better' for classical music while others are better at metal.

I've got vinyl records, I've got a turntable, and if people want to use tubes for whatever reason floats their boat, more power to them. But the argument that tubes and vinyl sound 'better' is, to me, sort of like saying "we should all still be flying in 6 cylinder biplanes, dammit, because that is how man was MEANT to fly!"

[mantis]

Dude..dude ..dude,
It's all good.Tubes transistors,Phono,cd's whatever.
Pleasing sound is pleasing sound for whatever the reasons maybe.
I liked my Fender Tube amps better then my Peavey solid state.My guitar had a warmer more natural sound over the solid state which had a slighty fuzzy distorted sound overtone.Phono I can see why people still love them,they love to hear the hiss,the pops,it reminds them of old times.Cd's sound to some people to ....'I'll say clean, or even fake I have heard.
For me if it sounds good I'm into it.If it sounds bad.....I hate it.
Everyone like to say this is the way to do it.I have learned over time there are many ways to get the job done.
Tubes vs solid state for home audio????I say it depends on the speakers being driven.Some speakers sound better with tubes and some don't.
Example........Martin Logan sound there best with Audio research tubs amps.
Dynaudio C4's sound best with Krell.
I like what mates together better,not what the spec's are or who made it.....things just work out.

[madmax]

Originally posted by burdette



This has always struck me as more an unwillingness to change couched as the old way being 'better.' More than once in this thread, people have commented that tubes "sound" a certain way.. warmer or softer or whatever. Um... doesn't a change to the original signal have a name.. i.e. distortion? Perhaps they *like* the changes.. but if the equipment is changing the sound from how the artist originally performed it, I have a hard time describing that as better.


No, no, no,
You have mistaken the comments. The transistors have a particular sound to them that is non-warm. They are not necessarily harsh but have an edge to them. It is not that people like the sound of tubes, they like the sound of "real" sound. I am of course speaking for myself only. Take 10,000 little sounds all recorded together. When reproduced through transistorized equipment you end up with 50 to 75 sounds you can distinguish. Through tubes you become totally overwhelmed by what you are hearing. A good example is how MD sounds. Sure, it is a "pretty" sound. The real sound, however is quite different.
madmax

[burdette]

I wasn't trying to address only your comments... I've heard for a long time that tubes 'sound' different, with 'warm' being a consistent term used to describe the sound. I (think) I understand that you're saying you believe the 'warmth' of tubes is actually the.. or a better.. reproduction of the original sound? That is different from what I've heard elsewhere, where the warmth was indeed a change rather than a more accurate reproduction. I think we'd have to nail down that distinction or we're talking about two different things.

As Mantis said, it depends on the entire signal path from source back into sound. Assuming for a moment that you're correct in that tubes reproduce better, do you have an opinion on what price-point you have to reach in loudspeakers before you are able to 'hear' those differences? I, for one, doubt I'll ever spend more than $1000 on a pair of speakers (based on today's dollars and value). That is a pitance compared to what some spend, especially self-proclaimed audiophiles using tubes, etc. You know, it's like a roommate I had in college... he bought an 80wpc Yamaha receiver.. because his buddy had bought the 60watt model below it... but my RM then couldn't afford speakers so he had a old pair of Fisher 8" 3-ways. Certainly, a large part of the Yamaha's abilities weren't being used. You couldn't 'hear' a difference from my old 40wpc Sansui that cost about a third the money.

But I guess this all has to be put in perspective.. I'm the guy who is happy right now with my new $140 DD receiver and nonPolk center speaker because, being my first move to HT, sitting in my basement in my less than perfect environment, with the baby monitor on in the background.. it sounds GREAT.

[HBombToo]

I could not have said it better Burdette.

My thought on an upgrade is something bigger than perception. I would like to have all the components matched feature wise such that I can experience all features available in my current settup.

I'm trying to say I would like to take advantage of DTS because it is available in my AVR and progressive scan because the Sony 57" will benefit and the common link preventing this is the DVD Player. It is great box but is behind the current level of features available which has limited me.

I think that these 2 features will expand the level of enjoyment in a big way where, if say, I just bought a 10K Tube Amp... What would I actually accomplish? My ear is not trained and I'm a musical idiot even though I enjoy music... I don't believe I could tell the difference.

Some day for the hell of it I'll put together a 2 channel system but not any time soon.

Regards
HBomb

[madmax]

There should be a level of loudspeaker or equipment costs where tubes and such make a difference but I'm not sure. The reason is that I've heard old tube sets with cheap drivers "built in" that kicked butt. Cost is only a comparison between equipment with the same features. Have you ever heard that cheap $500 system that seemed to sound better than the system you had $1500 in? I guess this relates to the $5000 system that beats your $15000 system? Cost really is not the object. Some of the articles in Stereophile magazine (most people consider them snobs) often contain info about cheaper stuff. I remember articles about a portable CD player for $100 beating out several thousand dollar units and also some other articles with this same idea in mind. The point is that cost and sound do not necessarily go hand in hand. To respond to the "difference" of tubes, well, I can't. I really don't hear an overall difference, just more details and a seemingly "real" sound. I guess if you have a particular type of tubes and a particular set of brand names of equipment you can end up with something that sounds very different.
Just rambling here because I don't know the answer.
madmax

[HBombToo]

Not a Ramble... I read ya loud and clear.

[madmax]

I wonder what a HT would sound like with the LSi speakers and all tube amplification? Might be heaven! Then again, you might never leave the house and end up starving to death.
madmax

[mantis]

anythings possible isn't it?

[madmax]

Only if you get lucky!
madmax

[RuSsMaN]

Originally posted by mantis
I liked my Fender Tube amps better then my Peavey solid state.My guitar had a warmer more natural sound over the solid state which had a slighty fuzzy distorted sound overtone.

Dude, I knew you had music in your sole, but didn't know you played... What Fender amps do you have, and what tubes do you have in them? What axe are you slingin'?

I run 2 Aria Pro II 6 strings, and an Ibanez GSR205 Bass. All SS, run Marshall on the 6'ers, Dual Ampeg BA112's on the 5 string bass.....

WAY off topic, perhaps we should start another.......

Cheers,
Rooster

[madmax]

Originally posted by RuSsMaN


WAY off topic, perhaps we should start another.......

Cheers,
Rooster

Feel free to continue. Where did the "Rooster" come from??? For me I'll stay with a Marshall tube amp fed from a Gibson "Gothic" explorer anyway over a Fender, and besides, I think I overstayed my welcome anyway.
madmax

[RuSsMaN]

Please continue Chuck....the wife calls me Rooster when she see's me 'tying one on'....she says I start to 'strut'....

I'd love a tube head, but I don't play THAT well.... I feel like I don't deserve it yet....

Cheers,
Rooster

[nascarmann]

the wife calls me Rooster when she see's me 'tying one on'....she says I start to 'strut'....

:lol: Man......what a site that must be.....

[madmax]

Originally posted by nascarmann


:lol: Man......what a site that must be.....

I'll agree with that one!

I only have a Marshall tube head because when I was looking at guitar equipment (which I knew absolutely nothing about) one of my friends told me this was a cool one to have. I must agree because the tone is awesome. I found one on ebay for less than most of the SS ones in the stores so I bought it. I still can't play but maybe some day. No, I don't deserve a tube head either. After getting into it I finally realized that a much cheaper combo amp would have been better suited to me. My friend was talking from his own experience (he plays professionally) and didn't mean for me to actually get one. I'm not sorry though because you can always re-sell the stuff if it doesn't work out. We took his and added a rectifier tube to it in place of the diodes. This was an awesome mod and I plan on doing it to mine just for the hell of it. It adds a little sag to the sound like the older Marshalls had.

This is what got me into the tube thing: I hooked the marshall up to one of the SDA's (playing quietly of course) and heard sounds I couldn't believe coming out. I just figured there was something to it. That is why I tried one of the Jolida stereo amps. This was absolutely the best stereo upgrade I have made in the past 10 years! Tubes are awesome!

I was thinking this thread was getting long enough to start annoying people.
madmax

[CrazyHead]

This was a good thread to catch up on...

Here's my take, I'll try to put some of the tube misunderstandings and mysticisms to bed here.

I used to feel that tubes were a waste of time because they add "distortion", were so expensive, and were just rich person' play things. Plus, they are old tech -- how can they be any good? So, I lived with various solid state amplifiers while I continuously read things about tubes, etc.

Then, about one year ago, I found a used JoLida 502A sitting on the floor of a local hi-fi shop. I saw the tubes and noticed it was in the "used" pile of gear, just sitting there collecting dust. I asked how much it was, I expected it to run at least a grand or two. Later I found out that the 502 originally sold for around $1200 when it was new. The price tag on the used one was an astonishing $280. Unheard of -- even on eBay these things regularly go for $700-$800. So I took it home and gave it a listen for a demo.

I am glad I did, because I immediately liked the sound. It was somehow cleaner and more robust.

I've modded my amp, replaced some caps, a handful of resistors, upgraded the wiring and such, and of course there's the joy of tube rolling (experimenting with different makes and vintage of tubes to change the sound). None of the tube changes are like EQ'ing things different. It's hard to explain, really... it's more of an aural type of change. Subtle ways in how the sounds are changed, their weight, the air between instruments, etc.

Tubes and solid-state equipment produce different types of distortion. Solid-state gear produces mostly what is known as odd-order harmonics. Tube gear, on the other hand, produces more of what is known as even-order harmonics. The details of which are fairly interesting and of an entirely different thread. But, it is certain that the human ear prefers even-ordered harmonics (even meaning that each multiple of the fundamental lands within our tuning scale, odd-ordered does not).

The general saying is that solid state can be harder to listen to than tube equipment due to this very issue. Harder in that it becomes more fatiguing, much quicker. Expensive SS gear uses lots of negative feedback to mask the distortion. Different tube circuits use negative feedback to reduce distortion as well. However, both amp types leave their own sonic signature and you can tell the difference.

The other issue revolves around clipping. A transistor is, more or less, a switch. It's on or off. When you reach a peak, and the transistor can go no further, it will simply shut off and clip the signal. This can happen at virtually any time as you increase the power demands on the amp. This clipping will result in added distortion, hardness to the sound, or an edgy feeling. It will become harder to listen to. Tubes, conversely, operate as a "valve" (hence the term fondly used in Europe, "valve amps"). A tube will distort, but not clip from what I understand. It will reach a peak but it will never simply flat-line at the extremes and burn the sound up. Tubes gracefully distort. The valve comparison comes from the idea of turning a valve, the more you turn the more current flows.

As for why tube gear generally sounds finer and more detailed... I believe this can be summed up very easily. Tube amps are about a thousand times simpler to design than a solid-state amp. If you've ever seen the guts of a tube amp, you'll know what I mean. A handful of resistors, caps, power transformers, and tubes are just about all it takes. You can build one yourself in an afternoon. Now, open up your big Marantz or Harman/Kardon receiver. You'll see boards and boards and hundreds of parts, caps, resistors, transistors, little traces, ribbon cables for controls, logic boards, ICs, DACs, the works! All sorts of things for that poor little audio signal to run through. Crosstalk and all! Yikes! Take a look at the RCA jacks in those receivers... from the jack right into a PCB trace that probably runs for 50 feet through all kinds of components before it finally hits the power.

So, you have a tube amp with about 50 pieces total. Then you have a solid-state amp with about 500 pieces total. Which is going to take the line-level input to the power in less time with less obstruction? :)

This, combined with the more even-ordered distortion that a tube amp provides, yields unbelievably good sound... the type of sound that makes everything sound more real, far cleaner, and more involving!

Like others have said... I find it hard to listen to solid-state amps anymore. Even the high-buck audiophile ones, as clean and analytical as they are, still sound edgy to me. Something is just "not quite right" about them.

Then there are the hybrid amps... the ones that use a tube pre-stage and solid-state power amplification. These are interesting beasts because they lace the sound with a little of both types of distortion. You get the bass control of solid state with some of the euphonics of tubes. A hybrid is also a simple circuit (not as simple as pure tube, however) and thus less signal obfuscation. They're also much less expensive to produce (you can find JoLida hybrids for around $350). A lot of people just dig the heck out of hybrid amps and swear by them. I have not heard one, personally, but I am sure they are as good as they claim!

So that's everything in a nutshell. I hope I've helped clear a few things up for some of you regarding the non-technical side of tubes amps. If I am wrong with anything, feel free to correct me. This is just the summation of what I've read over the last year. :)

Good listening, everone!

-crazyhead-

[gidrah]

Great read Crazyhead! Long time no see.

I've been contemplating a pair of Antique Sound Lab Wave 8s for a time now. I just need some more efficient speakers first.

[madmax]

Nothing wrong with any of that!
I also never thought of tubes as an upgrade. The first Jolida I got was going for $355. I bought it thinking it was a toy which would make for a cool discussion piece in my bedroom system so the waste of money was reasonable. That ended up costing me a lot because after a few months I realized these super powered solid state amps only annoyed me when I listened to them. It wasn't long until they were sitting there gathering dust and several new tube sets took their place. Lets face it, a $355 amp that replaced two $1400 mono blocks aint a bad deal! Now I have 3 used Jolida amps and two Manley mono blocks. They are cool to gather around when it gets cold outside as well!
madmax

[HBombToo]

Originally posted by CrazyHead
This was a good thread to catch up on...
Tubes and solid-state equipment produce different types of distortion. Solid-state gear produces mostly what is known as odd-order harmonics. Tube gear, on the other hand, produces more of what is known as even-order harmonics. The details of which are fairly interesting and of an entirely different thread. But, it is certain that the human ear prefers even-ordered harmonics (even meaning that each multiple of the fundamental lands within our tuning scale, odd-ordered does not).
-crazyhead-

I had totally forgot about this thread and am glad to see you revived it crazyhead. Thanks!

IMO this is the perfect thread to go a little deaper into even and odd harmonics and would really enjoy seeing a discussion because I would learn quite a bit. Whether or not in this thread please expand on this most interesting topic.

Regards
HBomb:)

[madmax]

I have no idea what causes a tube to output mostly even order distortion and transistors to output mostly odd order harmonics. That would be a good place to start. Maybe something to do with negative feedback being applied?
madmax

[HBombToo]

Hmmm... I guess I'm way off because I was thinking it may have something to do with the amplifier class.

Do Class ab amps suffer from even harmonics?

HBomb

[madmax]

Now I'm just talking here but I think class is not much of an issue BECAUSE all of the SS units and tube units I'm familiar with are all push pull (class AB). I'm wondering if it has something to do with voltage source rather than current source. (tubes are voltage source, I think? I'm not sure) Lets see, you can leave a ss amp with an open ouput but cannot short the output. Tube amps you can short the outputs but cannot leave them open without damage. So far I only have a bunch of useless facts. Someone should give us a hand here!
madmax

[CrazyHead]

Originally posted by HBombToo
Hmmm... I guess I'm way off because I was thinking it may have something to do with the amplifier class.

Do Class ab amps suffer from even harmonics?

HBomb


I absolutely would not say "suffer" is right at all! Even-ordered harmonic distortion is far, far more pleasing to the ear than odd-ordered distortion.

Let's face it, all amps distort virtually all the time. Distortion does not equal clipping! We can talk about temporality, resonance, etc. but it all comes down to the fact that there is always distortion present in an amplifier. Some have more at given volume levels than other, etc. That's why the infamous "THD" ratings should be taken with a grain of salt.

There are tube amps that have THD ratings that rival many solid state amplifiers. But what are they guaging that off of? What power level? Peak? I should think not.

For example, JoLida advertises the 502/302 series amps as having "less than 1% distortion at 50W, 28Hz - 15kHz". Okay, so if you read JUST THD numbers, you see an amp that introduces a near whopping 1% THD! Holy sh!t! But, as myself and madmax know, these amps sound blisteringly clean and refined. Madmax claims to have replaced $1400 monoblocks with a sub-$1000 JoLida integreated tube amp. Those monoblocks probably advertised 0.002% THD. Of course, did they say what the output was? 0.002% THD at idle current is probably absolutely reasonable. :) JoLida rated 1% at 50W output for the 302 -- that's full power for that amp, boys and girls! So, ignore THD figures because they don't mean jack.

To get back on track, some distortion is always inevitable. It's the type of distortion that an amplifier type inherently produces that paints the big picture in terms of listenability.

Even-ordered is what we much prefer to hear, this is why tube amps generally sound superior to their solid-state brothers.

-crazyhead-

[TroyD]

I am finding this thread incredibly illuminating, thanks guys.

If you could dumb it down for me a little, could someone explain the difference in even and odd ordered harmonics?


BDT

[HBombToo]

agreed BDT.

[TroyD]

Just a quick commentary, not wanting to derail this train, but it's kind of funny that in the 2 channel forum, you've got some discussions that are pretty cerebral on analog and tube gear. In the other forums we are screaming "EFF YOU, my dick is bigger than yours"

Just an observation

[CrazyHead]

Originally posted by TroyD
I am finding this thread incredibly illuminating, thanks guys.

If you could dumb it down for me a little, could someone explain the difference in even and odd ordered harmonics?


BDT

Right, here's some info I snagged from Deja (now Google Groups) about this very subject:


At least, assuming that "odd harmonic" and "even harmonic" refers to those
signals which are odd and even multiples, respectively, of the original
("fundamental") frequency. Suppose the fundamental is a 440 Hz "A". The
first two even multiples occur at 880 Hz and 1760 Hz - each "A" in
successive octaves. 6X the fundamental is 2640 Hz, very close to an
E (which is a fifth up from the 1760 Hz A6).

Now look at the odd multiples:

1X = 440 Hz (A4)
3X = 1320 Hz (close to E6)
5X = 2200 Hz (roughly a C sharp - ooops!)
7X = 3080 Hz (not quite an F sharp - oops again!)

And now, an even better thing... sonic samples for you to download and compare! This page has samples comparing 0.1%, 1%, 10%, and 30% THD across 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th order harmonics.

http://www.pcabx.com/technical/nonlinear/index.htm

Myself, I cannot accurate discern between the original and 0.1% on my laptop with Grado SR-125 headphones. However, 10% is quite easy. Notice how the odd ordered harmonic distortion (3rd and 5th) make the music sound sort of edgy, with information loss in certain octaves. Compare to the even ordered (2nd and 4th) distortion which sounds reasonable, all the way to 30% (albeit very muddy and clearly problematic at 30%).


-crazyhead-

[CrazyHead]

Originally posted by TroyD
Just a quick commentary, not wanting to derail this train, but it's kind of funny that in the 2 channel forum, you've got some discussions that are pretty cerebral on analog and tube gear. In the other forums we are screaming "EFF YOU, my dick is bigger than yours"

Just an observation

Ahh, we wont derail anything. :)

I rarely read many other posts in the other areas of this forum so I cannot comment on the statements of others. But I am surprised you hear of that kind of behavior here. This is one of the better forums on-line, even if it does require a Polk serial number to join up.

2-channel people seem to be a different breed. I used to be into HT heavily. That's how I started. I had a big 15-inch sub, huge Polk tower speakers, big 5.1 receiver (big watts and tons of RCA jacks in back). Yeah, I was the king of the surround sound hill. Then I was given the "deal of the century" (according to, believe it or not, Mike Allen (sp?), the owner and amp designer of JoLida who knows my saga) with my $280 Jo 502A. Everything fell apart in my HT after that. I shed the sub, shed the surrounds, shed the receiver, lost the big towers and replaced them with a svelte pair of LSi9's. The sound is better, the music is more alive, movies are just as satisfying, and the tubes are way sexier to look at when the ladies are over (huge banks of green, orange, and red LEDs are not nearly as tactile, romantic, and involving as the deep orange glow of the fillaments inside the sealed glass tubes).

The amp is always a conversation starter as well. People invariably end up asking questions. Then they get their CD's from their car. Then they start ooh'ing and ahh'ing. Later we end up on eBay looking at amps for their own livingrooms. :)

-crazyhead-

[madmax]

Here is a less technical way to look at even and odd distortion. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Even order distortion is like playing two keys on a piano such as a "C" and an "E". Sounds very nice. You can play a "G" as well and it sounds great. Even if you intended to play a "C" only but accidentally played a "E" as well probably no one would notice it.

Odd order distortion is like playing a "C" at the same time you play a "D". (the key next to it). No matter how loud everything else is you will hear that the "C" and "D" were accidentally played at the same time because it sounds horible.

madmax

[HBombToo]

I really wish I knew how to read music... I'm an idiot when it comes to that stuff and should have got into it as a child but I was too head strong.

I had the oppertunity and let it slide. Shame on me.
I know numbers though and its all I have ta go on. So I'll keep pushing.

Thanks
HBomb

[TroyD]

Your a pretty intelligent dude, reading music is NOT that difficult.

BDT

[HBombToo]

Thanks BDT. Perhaps I'll give it a shot.
A guy I work with is very good at music... writes his own, has a band and you should see his recording studio. Pile of cash tied up in some really cool stuff. Maybe old dogs can learn new tricks? We'll see.

HBomb