Bi-wiring Recommended!

[SolidSqual]

Hey Guys,

I biwired my system using Canare wire from BJC. Holy hell, it does make a difference. Ok maybe not a big holy hell, like going from Bose to Polk, but nonetheless Holy Hell.

My Rti8s are performing noticeably cleaner highs. Before the bass slightly muddied the treble, but now the bass seems to support the treble more than ever before.

Not a crazy improvement, but definately brought a wry smile to my face.

[zombie boy 2000]

Did you bi-wire or replace the jumpers?

[SolidSqual]

I bi-wired and removed the crappy brass jumpers.

[zombie boy 2000]

I bi-wired and removed the crappy brass jumpers.


Gotcha.... so you have bi-wire cables. Specifics, if you'd be so kind?:)

[ahorvitz]

Nice work. It's a great, cheap upgrade, isn't it?

[SolidSqual]

I spliced the four ends of the canare cable. Then I attached four bannana plugs to one end(2+, and 2-). Next I attached a bannana plug to the 2 negative ends on the other, and did the same for the 2 postive ends. All in, I used 6 bannanas for one cable. I connected the end with four plugs to the speaker and the end with 2 plugs to the amp.

[SolidSqual]

Yeah, to be honest, I'm surprised the upgrade made an audible difference. I've read the science behind the idea, but the elctricity all comes from the same source, so I was naturally skeptical. At any rate, it works!

[amulford]

You should try Bi Amping...

[sidespin]

I'm getting a pair of Monitor 60's by next week sometime. I was thinking of bi-wiring them, maybe Audioquest bi-wire cables or something decent but not too expensive. I don't have a separate amp, as they will be powered by my Denon AVR 1804, which pumps out 90 WPC. I use my system for mostly HT.

Will bi-wiring make a difference? Or should I just go the other route and remove the brass jumpers, and i guess use 12-14 ga. speaker wire to connect the posts and wire one of the terminals? I don't think bi-amping is a possibility as I won't be buying a separate amp. I'm not sure if an amp is needed for the Monitor 60's. From what i've read, the Monitor 70 & Rti-8 is about where extra juice is needed in the current Polk line. Correct me if i'm wrong.

[JKnPA]

Sidespin.....
If you want to bi-wire, you have to remove the jumpers!
See link below........ par. 1.13 and figure #5.
* One advantage to bi-wiring is that you seperate the bass( driver & Xover filters) from the mid/tweeter units.

http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm#bi_wiring

JK

[SolidSqual]

Maybe when I get some more money I'll try bi amping, but for now I"m good.

Sidespin: You should just make your own cables. It is incredibly more cost-efficient and offers a good reason to sit down and listen to some tunes while working. Blue Jeans Cables sells all that you would need to get started.

[sidespin]

Thanks for that link JK. There was some good info I just learned from there.

SS, I have made cables before, ie. - putting banana plugs on the ends of speaker wire and the like. But, i've come to realize my handiwork is not that of Michelangelo. This is more true of my car, where my handiwork has already led to some problems. Granted, making speaker wire is easier than taking apart car door panels and installing new speakers, so we'll see. The speaker wires I made look kind of shabby and just don't feel legit. I figured buying a ready-made product would alleviate those concerns. Althought buying a 50 ft. spool of speaker wire would of course be more cost-efficient. I will take a look at the bluejeans cables though. Maybe if i had the proper tools as well. I don't have a wire stripper, as I just use scissors, which sometimes doesn't work well. I always have to check if I cut off some strands of wire. Is a wire stripper a worthwhile investment? I'm guessing it costs anywhere from $10-20.

[Gabor]

SolidSqual, I'm glad that you brought up this thing, I am skeptical too. All that you've done, theoretically, decreased the wire resistance and separated the signal going to your low and high frequency speakers. If I got it right.
Will you post a link so I can get some background on bi-wiring?... But I'll try it definitely, you sound quite happy with your result.
...Never mind. I just noticed JK's link above, it tells it all.

[zombie boy 2000]

Maybe if i had the proper tools as well. I don't have a wire stripper, as I just use scissors, which sometimes doesn't work well. I always have to check if I cut off some strands of wire. Is a wire stripper a worthwhile investment? I'm guessing it costs anywhere from $10-20.


A wire stripper is an extremely worthwile investment -- and one that can be made for about 9 or 10 dollars... Just make sure you get one that goes down to 10 gauge, and more importantly, differentiates between stranded and solid core (obviously you want the former)...

that is to say that 10 gauge stranded is a different size than 10 gauge solid

[McLoki]

I would be very interested in you just running a single speaker wire to your speakers and replacing the jumper between the terminals with a 6" strand of your speaker wire of choice.

If you get a chance try it and report back if the benefits you hear are from running 2 strands of wire to your speakers or from replacing that brass jumper with decent speaker wire.

I do not know what the answer is, but would be interested to hear your opinion of it. (one way or the other)

Michael

[MillerLiteScott]

I was talking to a guy at Tweeter today and I asked him about Bi-wiring.

His suggestion was to wire both A and B speaker selections to the seperate inputs on the speakers for high and low with the bridge removed of course.

So what I am saying is you would wire the left A speaker selection to the high input on the back of the speaker and the left B speaker selection to the low input on the back of the speaker and do the same for the right side also.

I asked about Ohms and impedence and he said iit was no different.

Is this right or do you just wire from the A speaker selection.

I'll hang up and listen.

Scott
Enjoying my first Miller Lite for the evening.

[McLoki]

His suggestion was to wire both A and B speaker selections to the seperate inputs on the speakers for high and low with the bridge removed of course.

So what I am saying is you would wire the left A speaker selection to the high input on the back of the speaker and the left B speaker selection to the low input on the back of the speaker and do the same for the right side also.

What you are describing is called bi-amping. Actually using a different amplifier channel for the top and bottom binding post.

Bi-Wiring is using separate wires to the same amplifier channel.

Some say they all sound the same others say they all sound different. Smart people listen to opinions, then test it and decide for themselves.... :)

Michael

[MillerLiteScott]

I bought more speaker wire so we shall see tomorrow if it makes a difference.

Has any one ever tried using both the A and B channels to power 1 pair of speakers?

[F1nut]

Scott, if you are hanging out in that Tweeter store in Towson, the only guy that knows his sheeeet is a fella named John......if he's still there. Run down to Soundscape on Coldspring Lane for a real hifi experience.



Has any one ever tried using both the A and B channels to power 1 pair of speakers?

Do you have an AVR or stereo receiver?

[MillerLiteScott]

F1

I do stop into the Towson Tweeter about once a week. I will try to stop into Sound Scape next week and have a look see.

Are you local?

I think tomorrows race will be quite interesting. Weather during Quali jumbles the field and makes for some exciting racing on Sunday.

Can you bi-wire a single pair of speakers using both the A and B speaker selection? I have a 1999 Yamaha RX V795 5.1 ( it does have pre out for an external amp for the future. Or I just might replace it with a newer AVR )

Scott

[F1nut]

Definitely get down to Soundscape (is it one or two words, I don't remember), while not offering the highest end gear around, they have a better selection of power and source gear than Tweeter.

More or less.

Another F1 fan, excellent!

You can, but I don't think you'll hear a difference. It's kinda the ghetto way. I've had better results using high quality jumpers. So, you might want to try using jumpers made from the same or better speaker cable that you're using now. Remove the stock jumper plates first.

Some of the better AVR's with separate amps for each channel allow you to use any unused amps to bi-amp.

[MillerLiteScott]

I will go down to Sound Scape this coming week. I like fact that it is family owned.

I ran seperate wire from my A speaker out put to both sets ot terminals on the back of my speakers and my initial observation is smoother blending of low mids and highs.

I think my next move will be an SVS sub. And I will go from there because I really can't listen to anything with much volume because of the rest of my family.

Scott

Alonso WDC 2006

[F1nut]

I take it you removed the stock jumpers, right?

Buy them earplugs for Christmas.:D


Let's hope so!

[MillerLiteScott]

Jumpers out.

Ear plugs would make good stocking stuffers. And cheap to boot.

Kimi WDC 2007.

[Scubadoo]

I tried bi-wiring. To be honest, I can't tell the difference. There are some opinions that bi-wiring is bad. See http://www.sonicdesign.se/biwire.html.

[MillerLiteScott]

Great now I am really confused.

[Schwingding]

What you are describing is called bi-amping. Actually using a different amplifier channel for the top and bottom binding post.

Bi-Wiring is using separate wires to the same amplifier channel.

Some say they all sound the same others say they all sound different. Smart people listen to opinions, then test it and decide for themselves.... :)

MichaelThe A and B speaker selectors use the same amp, so this would not be a valid definition of bi-amping.

Like the other poster, Scott, I notice no difference with biwiring on my RTi10s.

Here is a link to what I found to be very interesting discussions on bi-wiring/amping.... http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm#basics

[Schwingding]

Can you bi-wire a single pair of speakers using both the A and B speaker selection? I have a 1999 Yamaha RX V795 5.1 ( it does have pre out for an external amp for the future. Or I just might replace it with a newer AVR )Scott

Yes, you can. Or, if your banana plugs allow for it, you can jumper a pair onto the A speaker pair.

My AVR does allow reassignment of the rear surround amp to support the mains in bi-amp fashion, but it is only a duplicate of the main signal. To receive the most benefit from bi-amping, you would want to only send the highs to the one amp and the lows to the other. Still, when I tried it on my old Monitor 70's, it did make an appreciable difference. Separate amps (and better speakers) made an even larger difference than any AVR combo I could dream up.

[surfntomm]

I tried bi-wiring. To be honest, I can't tell the difference. There are some opinions that bi-wiring is bad. See http://www.sonicdesign.se/biwire.html.

i have done bi wiring as well with several different amps with 12 guage wire on my rti70's and i have heard no difference so i just put the jumper back in. in the 10th post on this thread i believe where the link to the article is, it states in there that bi-wiring may not yield significant results if you are already using thicker wiring but i did notice a great difference when i changed my wiring from 18 gauge to 12 gauge.

is the brass jumper really crucial to change, can you guys actually hear the difference?

[Scubadoo]

For short runs (my speakers are less than five feet away from the amp), I've read that 18 gauge speaker wire is adequate, which is what I'm running in bi-wire mode right now. As I said before, I can't tell the difference between bi-wire sound and single-wire sound with 18 gauge. I'd be amazed if 12 gauge would make any difference in single or bi-wire mode over a five foot run of speaker wire.

Check out http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#anhonest for all you ever wanted to know about speaker wire.

[F1nut]

Scubadoo, if you buy into that article, you have a lot to learn about audio.

[amulford]

If you wanna beleive that article, be my guest. I once had the same thought. My mind was changed.

Those that don't know, don't know that they don't know...

[Scubadoo]

F1nut: Which article did you mean? The one about bi-wiring or the one about wire gauges? I'm not an audio expert by any means. I know I can't hear the difference between bi-wired and single-wired RTi10s (maybe I just don't have an audiophile's ears). As for wire gauge, PolkAudio recommends 18 or 16 gauge for short runs. I assume they know what they're talking about.

[F1nut]

I was referring to the wire gauge article. For an entry level set up 16 gauge may be all that is needed, but as one moves up the audio ladder wire begins to make a bigger difference and it involves more than the gauge. Having said that, don't take my word for it, nor should you take that article as the gospel truth, it's not. It's something you have to experience for yourself.

[JKnPA]

I didn't see a problem with the article. What is the issue?
He states that not all wire sold by manufacturers are equal, and some expensive wire/cable is not worth the money spent!
I think the main issue........as stated in the article is the resistance of the wire in respect to the speaker impedance. So the length of wire and wire gague is important when choosing the wire for your system.
He states that in the article..........the critical factor being the wire resistance should not excede 5% of the speaker impedance!

************************************************** ******
The resistance of 50 feet of 24 AWG wire calculates to be 1.28 ohms and the 50 foot Monster wire is 0.079 ohms. The impedance of the speaker used in the demonstration is 8-ohms nominal impedance. The acceptable upper limit of wire resistance when used with an 8-ohm speaker is 5% or 0.4 ohms. Clearly, the #24 wire resistance is 3.2 times higher than it should be.
A further problem with using too small a wire is not only that the speaker output decreases but also that the speaker response changes at various frequencies depending on how the speaker impedance varies with frequency. The response tends to follow the variations in the speaker impedance.


His conclussions................................ *************************************************
"...So what do our fifty hours of testing, scoring and listening to speaker cables amount to? Only that 16-gauge lamp cord and Monster cable are indistinguishable from each other with music and seem to be superior to the 24 gauge wire commonly sold or given away as 'speaker cable.' Remember, however, that it was a measurable characteristic--higher resistance per foot--that made 24 gauge sound different from the other cables. If the cable runs were only 6 instead of 30 feet, the overall cable resistances would have been lower and our tests would probably have found no audible differences between the three cables. This project was unable to validate the sonic benefits claimed for exotic speaker cables over common 16-gauge zip cord. We can only conclude, therefore, that there is little advantage besides pride of ownership in using these thick, expensive wires

JK

[F1nut]

See my previous comment.

JK, 16 gauge lamp cord may work just fine in your set up, but it doesn't even come close to working in mine.

[JKnPA]

That may be true, but that doesn't mean the article is False.

He doesn't advocate using #16 wire for all applications. His main point , as I see it is, "the wire resistance s/b less than 5% of the speaker impedance(namely 8 or 4 ohms), so it doesn't become a factor on speaker sensitivity.
Example....... speakers with 8 ohms impedance using #16wire at a distance of 10ft.
@ #16wire....... 4.09ohms/1000ft. equates to 0.0409ohms at 10ft.
max. wire resistance should not excede 5% of 8ohms, which would be 0.4ohms..........well within the guidelines.
** Receiver output impedance is also important; it must also be very small so it doesn't become a factor in speaker performance.
*** My only question would be....... "Is 5% the correct number when determining max. wire resistance /speaker performance'.

Link to AWG table....................
http://www.interfacebus.com/Copper_Wire_AWG_SIze.html

[F1nut]

I never said it was false. I said it should not be taken as the gospel truth and I stand by that comment.


*** My only question would be....... "Is 5% the correct number when determining max. wire resistance /speaker performance'.



The correct answer would be what sounds best with your gear. As I stated previously, for entry level gear, lamp cord may be all one needs to be happy. However, when you get into better gear, lamp cord or wire measured by gauge alone (AWG table) is woefully inadequate at bringing out the best your set up has to offer.

I'll put it another way. If you are stuck on specs and measurements as your guide to what sounds good or what should sound good, you are in the wrong hobby.

[JKnPA]

I think he is stating a 'general rule' when choosing the correct wire for your audio system.
For those who can discern 'audio quality differences' when selecting the best gauge wire/cable for your speakers........ great !
I really don't think the majority of people here , or the general public can say they have a 'keen ear for audio', which shouldn't preclude them from the 'hobby'.

[Scubadoo]

Didn't mean to start a flame war. Hey, if expensive, thick speaker wire makes you happy, fill your boots! I'm using the money I saved with cheap, tiny wire to buy big bottles of ale! To each their own...;-)

Actually, the 18 gauge wire I'm using is 25 years old and I just upgraded from RadioShack Realistic speakers that were about the same age to the RTi10s. Sure, the RTi10s sound good. I was surprised, though, by how little better they sound than my old RadioShack specials. Hmm, "little better", is that proper grammar?

Oh oh, think I just started another flame war....

http://www.polkaudio.com/homeaudio/products/systems/?helpid=55

[F1nut]

I really don't think the majority of people here , or the general public can say they have a 'keen ear for audio', which shouldn't preclude them from the 'hobby'.

I was speaking directly to you. :)

The general public could care less about wires. Hell, a lot of them think a Bose radio is hifi, so I don't include them when mentioning this hobby.

[F1nut]

I will go down to Sound Scape this coming week. I like fact that it is family owned.


I stopped in on Tuesday, the name is one word. ;)

Anyway, get a demo on the big Quads powered by the CJ tube amp.

[Schwingding]

I stopped in on Tuesday, the name is one word. ;)

Anyway, get a demo on the big Quads powered by the CJ tube amp.
Now ya tell me. I was there yesterday to talk about HT design. Saw those big Quads, and drooled a bit over that big Sony projector.

[MillerLiteScott]

I went to Soundscape on Tuesday and demoed some Subs. I am going to get a SVS though. I am only allowed to go into the first room on the right as you walk in. I went to Gramaphone yesterday and man they have some equipment in there. Definitely out of my range.

Scott

[madmax]

I read about the advantages and disadvantages of bi-wiring in the link. While I agree with the theory behind the disadvantages I have not heard them on my system. Some parameter must be missing in his explanation otherwise it would be evident in all systems. Equations, simulations and graphs are nice but they rarely contain everything needed conclusively prove anything. I recommend trying both ways before reaching a determination.
madmax

[F1nut]

Scott, I didn't see you in there...lol. What do you mean you are only allowed to go into the room on the right???

[samiam]

I picked up a roll of monster xp...100' for around $20. (had a credit on newegg for a previous messed up order) For that price I thought what the heck. Eventually I'll get up to silver stranded cryo. ;)

My question is, when I go to bi-wire, a previous poster asked if they had removed the crummy brass posts? Can one do this on a rti8? I have the jumper and plastic screw thingies off. Hmm....will check....nope, doesn't look like it, unless I remove the entire face plate and cut where the solder is. Don't tell me anyone does this...

[TheReaper]

...removed the crummy brass posts?...
You only remove the "Brass Jumpers" for bi-wiring (do not remove the binding posts).

[samiam]

You only remove the "Brass Jumpers" for bi-wiring (do not remove the binding posts).
oh heh...thanks...:o

[Kelley_Moore]

Take a deep breath, it may be worth reading

I started down the path of bi-wiring, which to me, made no difference when I tried it other than cost me $40 more per wire. Then I thought about bi-amping until I started reading about Active and passive crossovers. Most speakers have a passive crossovers built in them, and if you remove it like some do, your speaker warranty is voided. Apparently, unless you bypass the internal crossover, you will get minimal benefits considering the costs incurred to have a biamped setup.

Something I saw from the HT Spot forum regarding Bi-Wire \ bi-amping...

"The only thing bi-wiring does is put more copper between the amp and speaker. You can accomplish the same thing by using a heavier gauge wire. As already mentioned, biamping does not help if you are using speakers with an internal passive crossover (most speakers). Some people will actually go so far as to remove the passive crossover and put an electronic crossover from someone like Beringer between the preamp and two or three amplifiers that then drive the speaker. This can provide excellent results, but you have to know what you are doing and it is more complexity than most people want to deal with. "

"Pikers is correct. If you don’t bypass the internal crossover within each speaker, you’re only benefiting from a fraction of what you could be getting. Many, if not all mid and high end speakers made today are bi-wireable. I don’t think there are any, even audiophile grade that are active bi-amp ready because they all have internal crossovers. Removing the bridges between the terminals on the speakers does not bypass the internal crossover. To get full benefit from your bi-amping, you need to physically bypass the internal passive crossover. Be forewarned however, this often voids any warranties.

"Ethan_Winer is also correct in that bi-wiring is a complete waste of time regardless of what a few people claim to hear. Salespeople will tell you there’s a difference because they want to sell you more wire. And manufacturers make their speakers bi-wireable simply to keep up with the Jones’s. As far as I know, there simply isn’t any quantifiable data that supports the bi-wire claims. It’s all false perception and sales hype. "

Here is the link to the above information.

http://www.hometheaterspot.com/htsthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=UBB5&Number=778129&Searchpage=1&Main=777488&Words=bi-amping&topic=&Search=true#Post778129

[samiam]

Thanks Kelly!

I was told a long time ago that a good way to think of electricity is to think of water. Using that analogy, I couldn't for the life of me figure out what bi-wiring would do other than create a bridge of electrons, coming from the same river so to speak. I could only see it working if you had a dedicated high and low out from your receiver or amp.

I put the brackets back on and am only using one of the connectors per +/-

I suppose that my blind spot here is bi-amping...which I know nothing about currently. All's I know is amping increases power which brings richness and volume.

[turbo311]

Ok first post, but it's important because I joined the forum to discuss this. I'm a newb to stereos, I'm no audiophile. I've got the RTi6's with PSW10 and Yamaha RX-797. I bought 20 gauge cable not knowing the difference, but my speakers are right next to the amp with short lengths of wire.

Anyway, I first set it up with the brass jumpers, but later bi-wired (not even knowing that was possible unti I got these speakers) and I did hear a big difference. The highs are much crisper and the midrange improved to say the least. I did it bare wired and I don't know how crappy my wiring skills are, but I've got what seems to be totally clear sound. I don't see how this would be possible with banana plugs. I don't know if bi-amping is even worth it for my casual needs. It's definitely very good as it sits and is the best stereo setup I've ever heard for under $1000. :)

[Kelley_Moore]

turbo311

There are too many speaker wire debates and some can get very nasty as I just finished one in AVS. I should have stopped reading after page 3 but it was train wreck and I could not stop viewing. You certainly will not have any trouble finding someone’s mindless opinion of your setup as you seek information in various forums.

I will not tell you if you are right or wrong because I’m not qualified to tell you. If it made a difference, and you are happy with it, that's all that matters. If you are interested in learning more, treat it like hot political debate. Listen to both sides of the argument, eliminate the extremes and the endless witless rants, and formulate your own opinion.

People see and hear things differently. A good example of this is the DLP rainbow effect. Fortunately, I'm one of those that cannot see it, where some people claim that they cannot bear to even watch a DLP TV because it is so bad (Remember to eliminate the extreme opinions). In most cases in your quest for a better HT experience, you at least get to buy it, try it and send it back if it made no difference at all. Or you can take the approach where you assemble your own wire. Nothing wrong with that either.

Good Luck and have fun! Oh yeah, welcome to the forum!

Kelley

[hearingimpared]

I can bi-wire but I'm not. I will however be pursuing BI-AMPING. Bi-wiring makes no sense at all to me. It seems that if I replace the cheapy jumpers on my 1.2 TLs and use good speaker wire to my mono blocks, I will get the same theoretical benfit as bi-wiring.

Bi-amping makes all the sense in the world. The problem I have is that I really don't want to chance bypassing the passive crossovers within the speakers. I have to place an active crossover between the pre and amps and then I just have to grow a pair and bypass the crossovers in the speakers. But what of the SDA network within?????

This is where I become a bit yella. I've had a few trusted members here tell me to can the crossover crap and just buy a really really good amp. That is my 2 cents on this subject.

[Libertyc]

The problem I have is that I really don't want to chance bypassing the passive crossovers within the speakers. I have to place an active crossover between the pre and amps and then I just have to grow a pair and bypass the crossovers in the speakers. But what of the SDA network within?????

Hey Joe:

If you bypass the crossovers in your 1.2tls you will kill the SDA effect.

Why is it necessary to bypass the internal crossover on a speaker that has 2 sets of binding posts and is already set up for biamping?