Interconnects for Adcom GFA-555II and Polk800i's

[tgoodley]

Hi Everybody,

I am trying to decide which interconnect cables would be a good choice for my setup (Adcom GFA-555II and Polk800i's). I listen to jazz, classical and occasional heavy metal. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Oh, my preamp will be a Adcom GFP-565 as soon as I buy it.

Thanks,
Tim

[jrausch]

http://www.signalcable.com/

Tell frank your part of the forum and recieve a discount on top of his great prices. :)

[mantis]

Like everything else it's personal sound.Most quality cables are built to last ....Straight,Monster,Transparent,Kimber,Nortist,et c..........It's what sound are you after and how much are you willing to pay.
I can tell you my personal favorite for aduio...Transparent Musiclinks......awesome sounding cables.Monster is better then most other cables but Transparent shines over the rest.
Speaker wire as well.
Here's a quick starter guide to wire/cable sound
Straight.......clean clear slightly edgy
Monster......Strong bass response
Transparent.....cleanest and most open,most musicial of them all.
Kimber........Bright with less bass then Monster
Nortist........Also a good musicial cable
This is just my finding's and not a FACT SHEET.
Listen for yourself and your wallet.
I will say this.......you can't go wrong with Monstercable, they make a good to great product at a competive price.In there class they outshine just about the entire market.
I never got to here Franks cables but would very much like to.

[shack]

Audioquest. You can get a nice interconnect for around $20 all the way up to $350. They look cool too! I've got their digital coax and s-video on my DVD player and I'm using their analog interconnects and digital optical for my SACD player. Some people feel that some of their cables are too straightforward and not smooth enough. I want my cables to just pass the signal from one source to another and not change what is there. I think Audioquest does this very well. I think they have a very nice sound and are a good value. Check out their web side HERE (http://www.audioquest.com/)

[shack]

Mantis - I think at one time Monster wasone of the best out there. They were one of the first to get out and market their product and for a while they were the only game in town. They still make good cables but there are better cables out there for the same money. I had Monsters but my local B&M let me try some Transparent and Audioquest. For the price I though the Audioquest was the best and switched out my entire system. It didn't cost me an arm and a leg and really improved the sound over the Monsters.

[stef_000us]

What do you all think about the AR Pro cables (speaker wire and interconnect)? I think I remember someone saying that Audio Research had a honest quality for their low price. Was is you Mantis?

Anyone?

Thanks,

Stef

[RuSsMaN]

Signal Cables or Audioquest. Eff Monster (imo, you 'monster' guys don't get your ass hairs up about this). I like the AR pro cables, but for the money, you can get into the brands listed above, and 'kick it up a notch', if you follow me.....

Cheers,
Russ

[tgoodley]

Hi guys,

Thanks so much for your responses. I have another question. Should I use the same brand interconnects for connections between CD player to Pre-amp and pre-amp to amplifier? I didn't think about this before, but I guess I will need two sets of interconnects. My CD player only has analog outs by the way (Sony CDP-C70 from 1989). I may be upgrading this to a NAD cd player in the future.

Tim

[nascarmann]

I like the AR pro cables

Me too.....that's what I am using.......;)

[mantis]

Ass hairs you say??????Well let me tell you this.........nevermind..
back to the topic at hand and to answer the questions...
It wasn't me who said Audio Research cables has a honest quality for a good price.That was someone else.I listened to there interconnects and I don't like them.
Audioquest makes nice cables,there not bad at all.I perfer Transparent over All made cables period.They are the most musicial cables at any price.
The question ...Should I use the same Interconnects from my Cd Player to the Pre amp to the Amps????Answer..YES ALL DAY.
Remember this Mantis Rule of Wire(out of the handbook softback version).Most cables on the market are of good quality.They all have a different sound.In theory it's hard to PROVE WHY But the ears don't lie.
Some companies use networks...this is a theory you guys with wire questions should look up.
Shielding out EMI and RF is also key.You want to hear the source not your surrounding's.
Warranty........big.
Shopping for wire is retarded.......meaning endless.I have done this for many many years.I have found that when listening to a given wire,different qualities of sound and tone change."MATCHING"to your system is what you look for.
just a small example.....if your system lacks punch ,Monstercable can help boost the lows,If your system is dead sounding,Kimber can help boost the high's.I'm not sure is Boost is the right word...maybe enhance is better but call it what you want.

[stef_000us]

Originally posted by mantis
It wasn't me who said Audio Research cables has a honest quality for a good price.That was someone else.I listened to there interconnects and I don't like them.
[/B]

In the same line of your previous post on sonic property, what do you find the AR Pro speaker cables and interconnects doing to the sound ouput? (I never listen to anything else so I wonder. Particularly interested how this affect brightness since I have a yamaha receiver)

Thanks again,

Stef

[nascarmann]

stef_000us

I find the AR pro's sound very good with my setup.......Yamaha CD..DVD..Receiver..Amps and SDA speakers.....AR 12 awg ox free wire for $.50' from Lowes Home Improvement on sale.......:cool: .......Hillbilly budget here.....:D

[mantis]

They sounded like patch cables.I don't want to kick around all you AR users but I don't think they sound good at all.The speaker wire I never heard go just the Interconnects.They looked nice with ok built quality but the sound..it was tinny, hollow and thin.No life to me at all.I think Monster standard sounds better then those cables.
If you do a head to head test/shootout with Monster vs anyone else in there price class, you will find (if you hear what I hear)that Monster does bass really well, there mid range is good and high's are clean and clear.The bass is where I find monstercable to shin the most.They also help out soft or laid back sounding systems.
I'm refering to the M series like the M850 and m850's.The M1000 is where you start getting into a different class.Then Higher end cables can be compared.Monstercable hangs in there with high end cables but starts to fall off.Transparent had there way with Monstercable, it was music link Vs M1000.The Monster sounded like good hi fi while the Transparent was real musicial and natural sounding.Wider soundstand and even tonal all over the range.Monster was slightly jumpy in the lower HZ.Both cables are nice.Its really what you want your cable to do.

[RuSsMaN]

Monster Schmonster, eff em.

[mantis]

Check that out!!!! So your beef with Monster is what??????

[RuSsMaN]

The Bose of interconnects, what else is there to say? Great marketing. How about maybe I just don't like em, and quite a few here will agree......that ok Mr. Pro Installer?

Cheers,
Russ

[TroyD]

Agreed on the Bose analogy, I neither like nor dislike monster. I find them to be of average quality at premium prices.

I find the AR stuff to be of equal or better quality for less money. That's how I see and hear it.

Let's NOT rehash the whole wire/cable thing, shall we?

BDT

[mantis]

Such Tone in that Post...strong and forward....must be Monster!!!
Who's ass hairs are standing now!!
Your post is weak....what NO HARD DATA??????????
Just crude Bose like post?
Hey you don't have to like them.........just looking for some HARD DATA on your findings.
Me being a Pro Installer or however you put it, has no meaning on this post.

[RuSsMaN]

Mantis, you just don't get it do you? Tone? How does my post show tone one way or another? Speak and spell brotha, speak and spell.

No need to get all sentimental on your Monster cables Dan. You worked for Tweeter, it was what they carry, so you bought them. Like I said before, ok for someone to disagree?, or do you still have your 'I am right no matter what' hat on?

Data? I simply stated my opinion. Obviously you have shown we don't need hard data, right? if Monster SAYS it is better, well it must be. Besides, I thought you were 'in to Transparent' now.

Cheers,
Russ

[TroyD]

Gee, I don't see where hard data comes in to play especially since Russ only ever offered his opinion. Now, if he said that he actually had hard data but never produced any, you could probably roast him.

Sorry Dan, thanks for playing.

GOLD, Jerry, GOLD!

BDT

[Flash21]

Arguing about interconnects (or speaker cables) is something that can go on forever. I have Monster M-1000s because the soundstage imaging, tonal balance, and full range response were better than anything else I tried, including Audioquest Coral and Viper, and several others I can't remember.

But there are many, many cables I didn't get to listen to, and more importantly, CABLES WILL BEHAVE DIFFERENTLY WITH DIFFERENT EQUIPMENT! What sounds good on my system may not inspire you on your system. There are some family differences that are consistent, but the final 10% of performance that makes the difference between mediocrity and ear-to-ear grinning is going to vary.

For example, I actually came full circle on my speaker cable choice (Analysis Plus Oval 9) - what sounded too laid back earlier in my system upgrade process now sounds wonderful, detailed without harshness, and an unbelievably realistic (and HUGE) soundstage. This happened because I was also changing equipment. When I finally got a CD player worthy of these cables, they SHINE! So the equipment you use will affect which cables work best with your system.

So the bottom line is, you have to compare cables with YOUR system, nobody else will be able to tell you what is "best". Yeah, it's definitely frustrating and a pain in the butt to buy/borrow cables and A/B them for what seems forever, but I have found the end result to be worth it.

[mantis]

Russaman,
Tone???lets see eff monster, is that ok with you Mr Pro Installer!!
I don't have my I'm right hat on ...where did that come from??
I just was wondering why you don't like Monster....you post just sounded like a bandwagon general type post.I thought you could go alittle deeper in why you hate them so much.(Monster)If it's only because of the Bose type theory you have and simply don't like them for that reason alone, thats fine.
I still don't get why you had to add in what you said about me being right and a pro Installer........whatever dude.
My HARD DATA was a joke (not funny now)from when you used to kick me with why one wire was better then another.I at least gave you an honest opnion about why I felt the way I did about things.
And yes I'm all about Transparent,but in this case I still feel Monstercable is the best bang for the buck wire on the market.I don't care what wire companies say about there wire,If I can't hear a difference...All The HARD DATA in the world won't change my mind.
I still own and will continue to own some Monster Products.

[RuSsMaN]

Hey, good on ya, for the price, there aren't a whole lot of affordable cables out there to bi-wire powered towers with.

I still own some Monster products (interconns) too, can't give em away. ;)

Cheers,
Russ

[mantis]

You know the whole Bi wire powered tower's thing......yes mine are bi wired, they sounded better then.........there on there way out,,,,,,,,,don't give one rats ass about the wire joke.I tried all I could to make them sound better.They don't work for me.Bi wiring was a trial and it passed my test well, sound improvement.Life with it bro....you beating a dead horse.

You see you and me......we look at this things quite differently.I'm not out for the BANG FOR THE BUCK ROUTE.
I'm so past anythoughts of that thinking.I owned alot of different gear in my life....now today I want alot better.

[RuSsMaN]

Dude, if you don't shop for the best 'bang for your buck', what are you getting for your buck, less?

Don't you want the best your money can buy? I'm not talking going a 'budget' route, and getting your cheap on, but why would someone pay more for brand X cable, when brand Y cost half as much, but is twice as nice?

Cheers,
Russ

[TroyD]

I got some questions here but I don't even know where to start......

First and foremost, for crying out loud, what you have done to your speakers is not biwiring. That is confusing a lot of folks. If it sounds better, fine, but it ain't biwiring.

Second, and I say this quizzically because I don't understand the logic, it seems that you have had this love/hate thing with the RT1000i's. If they are THAT bad, why did you get them in the first place? I say this because I find it hard to believe that someone could change thier minds so radically over a speaker? I mean, I get that you want higher end gear, so does everyone but can another speaker make you feel like what you have is garbage and turn you against it? If that's the case, cool, but I don't understand it.

BDT

[mantis]

Russman,
You missunderstand me somewhat.I don't shop for cheap or best deals.I shop for what I like and can possibly afford under my budget.I read your posts and you seem more driven by what things cost then how they perform.I could be off base.
I understand why people do this, Money is hard to come by.For me I want to upgrade this time without worring about the price and forfill a dream I had for a long time.Money is in the rears.I saved my pennies and they are adding up for a big bang.
You see I think you understand my logic to a degree but little different.Naturally I would take any product that performs better then a higher ticket Item for less.BUt I'm looking for a certain sound quality and I think I just about found it.
I understand your logic............
TroyD,
Don't worry about the bi wiring thing.......People can wire there speakers anyway they want.If it makes a difference I wouldn't say it's wrong.True Bi wiring I think we all know what it means and how to do it.
The powered towers I bought I think about 4 years ago now.I told my story about wanting the rt16's but where disco when I was ready to buy.The new lines where out and I couldn't bring myself to the rt800's and found the rt1000p's to suit my needs then.I loved them for a very long time.Pissed at them as long as they are so hard to set up.I bet this is one of the reasons most people don't like powered towers.Thats what I don't like about them, not to mention my kids love to turn the volume knobs for the subs.
You and Russ really never said why you guys aren't into powered towers, but I remember reading you guys pretty much hate them.
I'm around gear everyday,I get to see and hear all the latest and greatest before It's put on the market.I think If I didn't work in the field and wasn't so exposed to all the cool stuff,I might not want to upgrade so much.But thats another story.
If you can understand...thats cool.
Understanding the want for better I think you got.
Ok,
I will try to make you understand my Maddness(thats what Mrs.Mantis calls it).I love music and movies.When you hear your favorite on better stuff,and hear things your system can't replay,It's fustrating.Like when I first Installed a pair of Vienna Mozarts and a B&K avr307 in a home theater set up.I was taken by how well they performed with each other outside the store in a real good room professionally Installed.Amazing.
It was all down hill for the rt1000p's after that day.the quest began for better gear and speakers.
I also met with a guy from Sumiko who taught me alot about speaker placement and angles.I had to try my new stuff on my speakers hoping they would come alive.Well they did.And i was happy for awhile.I even ran them with the B&K avr307,they sounded the veybest they ever did, but I felt the B&K out classed them and It deserved bette speakers to show off it's beauty.
I tried everything in my means to make them the very best they could be.I had lots of different amps on them.The whole wire thing was to find wire that sounded the best.
Can you see where this is going????Polk brought out the LSI series last year and I got to listen to them at the show(Home Entertainment).They where killer looking and I was juiced up on them.
Dynaudio came into my life and a hole new love was born.Need not to go into that story.I think you guys know mine.
Over the past year and a half,I have been building/waitng for my house to be finished.I got so many plans I reworked them several times.I have been saving my pennies for the as you guys call it.."the man cave" of my own.Fortunate for me I will have 2 man caves.My office where i plan a killer 2 channel rig,and my Home Theater room.Lighting control screen projector( I already own the Vintage popcorn machine).
This is my dream,and it's getting close to being complete.
Last words.......the rt line served me very well and I hope I can sell them to a person who will take care of them as good as I did.I guess to sum it up is when you grow older, your tastes change.Mine did,I want more out of my rig and it can't do it for me anymore.

[OrangeToupee]

Cables and interconnects? Friggin hilarious ... like that shit makes one bit of difference. This crap in funnier than my Yakov Smirnov DVD.

Manits, you ever check ESS speakers out? Here (http://www.essspeakers.com/amt_monitor.htm) is a link to a page on their site. I'm now considering this pair of speakers; I've heard the Heil air-motion transformer go and, let me tell you, the most glorious highs one can imagine. They go everywhere! Just immersed in dead on high frequency. It stunned me when my friend started playing some tunes on this ragged looking, 20 some year old pair of speakers, I mean they just walloped my RT's which were brand new.

I've heard some negative things about ESS speakers, having to do with crossover problems, loose bass etc.

I'm tempted to get them anyway, just to hear those incredible Heil's to their thing.

Wires and cables .... I'm fidna shit my pants.

[TroyD]

why I don't like powered towers? Well for starters, the RT1000i's don't go THAT low and they generally use a crappy plate amp. I personally think Polk should have built a true 3 way speaker rather than some Hunter'd up looking powered tower. I'm not saying that they don't have their place or whatever but it I find it discouraging that Polk's flagship speaker is a powered tower.I think they are a lot of money for little added benefit.

Lastly, I'm not beating a dead horse with the bi-wire thing, but it's not biwiring what your doing. I've explained this until I'm blue in the face and provided hard data. If you dig it fine, but you are confusing new folks into thinking that they can do something that empirically you just can not do.

BDT

[mantis]

Excuse me....
but if someone other then you has a problem with what I post as far as to how to wire a speaker that I own and you do not,I can help that person myself.
I wired my speakers that way and It works all day long.Weather or not it's true bi wiring in your thinking or in mine...it works for me.....like I said before...get over the bi wiring thing and move on.I can deal with the powered tower questions from the young guys,I think I have enough hours/years setting them up to know what to do.If you have a better way you think they can be wired post it when the time comes around again, you know it will.
You do it your way and I will do it my way.They can do it the way they see fit.
I agree with you on the powered tower thing for the most part.I think Polk should have a passive flagship speaker, every other good speaker company has em but for some reason or another Polk keeps sticking amp's in there speakers.Even the new LSI25's are powered.The only reason I wouldn't buy them.

[Aaron]

We [me, Russ, Troy, and Dan] all know what true bi-wiring is, and we all agree that what Dan has is not bi-wiring in the true sense. Let's move on, shall we? Dan's acknowledged this fact. The point is, it sounds better to him.

I agree with both of you guys that Polk should not have their flagship product be a powered tower. Thankfully we now have the LSi15 (3-way, passive). Technically I guess you could call it a 3.5-way. Anyway, I'm just happy that they've done that. Now if only there were some local dealers.....

Aaron

[mantis]

Thank you.....Thank you very much.

[TroyD]

edit, now that I read Dan's reply, I'm wasn't trying to be confrontational. I'm just saying if you are going to post something, post it as factually correct, which it isn't.

It's like me hooking up a speaker to three outputs on a receiver and saying it is triamped. I can say it all day and I can say it sounds better to me but it still holds no water.

BDT

[mantis]

Don't lie you love to get your beat on me on !!!!!!

[TroyD]

Yeah Dan, I lie awake at night DREAMING of ways to get under your skin........trust me, I'm not THAT bored. :D

BDT

[Aaron]

Yeah Dan, I lie awake at night DREAMING of ways to get under your skin........trust me, I'm not THAT bored. :D
But Russ is! :p

Aaron

[RuSsMaN]

Dude, some of the shit that get slung around here BEGS to be dealt with.....the entertainment value alone is astonishingly high.....

You read the Sony post Aaron?

Cheers,
Russ

[mantis]

Seems like you are why else do you follow my posts around and comment on just about all of them??
Stalker!!

[Aaron]

You read the Sony post Aaron?
Of course.

Aaron

[TroyD]

Well Dan, if you REALLY want to pursue the issue, for someone that should know better, you spew forth an amazing amount of information that defies logic and common sense. As Russ noted, it BEGS to be dealt with. Really, you make it pretty easy, to be honest.

Don't get all conspiracy theoried up on us. Lee Harvey acted alone..

BDT

[mantis]

spewing an amazing amount of information the defies logic and common sense.With that being said.........I must make the most useless posts in this forum.
Tell you what wise old master....school me in the ways of audio and video,strike down my fast knowledge of useless posting.
Deal with all the lack of any kind of understanding.Make judgement.
Tell you what......spill your knowledge on me so I can learn from my own miss guided posts.
You gonna have to go deep in audio and video.Terms,history,progression of companies who founded this hobbie of ours.
While your at it school me on home automation,phone systems ,and lighting control.Programming I also need some pointers.
You know AMX is looking for trainers,you might be up for the role.I could use another course in Triggers,dry contacts,and timed secquences in calander year settings.
B&K might be having some trouble with there new pre amp, call them and fill them in on there lack of common sense.
O I almost forgot about sound room construction.You designs on porno hidding in the new generation of mancave's could really help sound quality.
With all you vast knowledge in the topics I have uselessly posted,I could be a better person with you leading the way.
Thanks for the awakening...I can see my knowledge is no match for yours.

[nascarmann]

I think mantis was sayinghttp://wayneg.ws/discus/clipart/fuckoff.gif

[TroyD]

priceless, I tell ya, priceless......

BDT

[mantis]

good post Troy,
Now can we talk about Ir and RF.With IR why does the plasma tv interfer with the signals?What can be done to filter out the interference if thats what it is....I can't be sure anymore.
Rf..why does it work sometimes and other not?Why sometimes from further distances it works better then up close?
I have so many problems for you I don't know where to start.

[mantis]

O by the way,
I also need help with this front projector.I thought I used the correct formula to calculate the mounting height of a ceiling mounted.
I know I can use the digital lens shift but why does the pitcure look distorted???
My keystone is at -8.....I need your Input on this one bud.

[nascarmann]

http://wayneg.ws/discus/clipart/kill.gif

[RuSsMaN]

Originally posted by mantis
good post Troy,
Now can we talk about Ir and RF.With IR why does the plasma tv interfer with the signals?What can be done to filter out the interference if thats what it is....I can't be sure anymore.
Rf..why does it work sometimes and other not?Why sometimes from further distances it works better then up close?
I have so many problems for you I don't know where to start.

RF is a tough issue, I take it you are operating on a un-licensed public band, somewhere in the 900-950Mhz range... RF is tough to troubleshoot. I used to install a wireless RF meter device on water meters (so the reader doesn't have to lift the lid and take a visual read, he can drive by with a laptop and powered antenna, and have the reads transmitted to him).

RF can change with the time of day, who is opening their garage door, who is using their cordless phone. Un-licensed RF (public bands) can be affected by outside electrical current also, ever hear a good hairdryer wack an RF signal? Sunspots, time of day, cell phone towers, even saturated ground after a good rain.

Can't help much with IR, other than trying to troubleshoot possible 'heat' issues. Being at the bottom end of the light spectrum, I can't see any other place to start. Do plasma TV's generate any substantial heat or infrared light?

Keystone? Digital Shift? Explain these terms, and perhaps I can help you troubleshoot them with nothing more than good ole' logic....

Cheers,
Russ

[TroyD]

Actually, I was refering to nascarman's post......

Now, lesse, ORIGINALLY, all I asked was that you stop calling your wiring scheme biwiring because it's confusing. It's incorrect.

Next, sometime back I posted, per your request, a list of things that you had posted that made no sense or weren't true. I then agreed that we wouldn't get in to that again and I won't.

Next, I have refrained from and will continue to refrain from getting personal or attacking your credibility. Good natured joking aside. I do wonder why, though, when quizzed on your facts that you insist on giving your resume? I certainly don't question now or ever you knowledge. In fact, when you post something out in left field, I question it because I operate under the assumption that you should know better.

I never have claimed to be an expert or know more than anyone, quite the contrary actually. As far as the whole TV and HT stuff, it couldn't interest me less so I don't bother with it.

Lastly, Dan, lighten up, we are all just trying to have fun. All of us are at the receiving end of some good natured ribbing. You are going to give yourself a coronary here!

Here I will end because what started out, for me, innocent and good natured is taking on pretty nasty overtones and that just isn't what the forum is about. Exchange of ideas and debate is cool but personal attacks aren't.

Jack Ruby

[RuSsMaN]

I take it we don't have any issues, this is just a term-tossing session? (I know words that you don't type of deal)

I don't know, if you had 8 Keystones last night, maybe you were just a sheet and a half to the wind.... My MHL factor was -10....

Cheers,
Russ

[Aaron]

I take it we don't have any issues, this is just a term-tossing session?
I guess that's better than a salad-tossing session....:eek:

Aaron

[RuSsMaN]

This is true.....

-R

[mantis]

I have only one thing to say...WHATEVER!!

[Ron-P]

Can't we all just have a sock-fest? Micah could be the moderator.


Peace Out~:D

[tgoodley]

Thanks for the responses everyone. I think I am going to take a chance on the Signal Analog1 cables; they are in my price range and seem to be fairly popular. If I don't like them, I will look for something else.

Tim

[RuSsMaN]

Wow, EIGHT months later? Your 4th post?

Lets us know in 2004 how they worked out for you. ;)

Cheers,
Russ

[F1nut]

Cut the guy some slack, Russ. Maybe he has been hospitalized or incarcerated or overseas or who knows what.....lol.

[tgoodley]

Hey. You guys are fun. Just wanted to let you know that I just purchased two used pair Tara labs Prism 22's. I will let everyone know how they sound. And yes, my new equipment has been sitting for some time! I can't wait to get everything setup.
Thanks,
Tim

[danger boy]

since this thread started.. has anyone changed their minds on the cables they mentioned above? I just bought a Adcom GFA5400 125wpc x 2. I am looking for interconnect cables now. want something in the range of low to mid end Audioquest or Signalcable, or something in the under $125 range for a 1 meter pair. I am not interested in Monster cable.. so those are out, even the higher end monsters, i'm just not interested in.
Someone did mention Transparent.. what are those, and where can I check em out?
thanks for any recommendations ahead of time guys.
Al

edit: I am looking for cables that provide good highs and decent bass too. So if any cables are soft or muddy on bass or highs, I wouldn't want those either.

[RuSsMaN]

Wow, this was a oldie but a goodie, fun reading up there.

Sorry danger, not trying to hi-jack.

[mantis]

If Transparent you are looking for ,I'm the guy who talks about it.Man what an old post I love the responce after 8 months.....thats 2 funny.

[danger boy]

yeah it's a blast to read old posts isnt's it? to look back months later and see what we were thinking. :p