Center chanel biwire

[ezc]

I have a LSiC center & wanted to know if bi wire speaker cable would be better than single cable. Im currenty using Monster Z-1 speaker cable. Is biwire better than single wire for HT or is biwire more for music? Would biwire make the voices from a dvd more defined? Thanks in advance!

[sgtgto]

HI:

MO, I would not waste my time or money!


Gary

[HBombToo]

I second that; although, waite and take the direction of Mantis, Russ or Troy.

I don't have their level of expertise.

[RuSsMaN]

Man, grouping me with Mantis.

What did I ever do to you brotha? ;)

Cheers,
Russ

[HBombToo]

:lol: :p
I have a lot of respect for all of ya but its Friday and I wanted to instigate another round debates:lol:

[RuSsMaN]

Roger that HBomb.

I feel if speaker has bi-wire capabilties, you owe it to yourself to at least try it, or make a wire-jumper at the minimum.....

The manufacturer implemented it in the design for a reason, and you paid for that feature, use it.....

But faak, what do I know. Anyone seen my baseball?

Cheers,
Russ

[HBombToo]

The question was not whether or not to bi-wire but if we should use wire designed specifically for bi-wire. 4 wires in 1 verse 2 pair of doubles, if I said that correctly. I have been following debates amongst you guys on different posts and have began, at least the consideration, of swapping cable types just for my own tests.

In my settup, I have bi-Amped, not just bi-wired, my fronts and center and from a cable management standpoint it would clean things up by going with 4in1 cable but I'm not convinced that I would hear or detect a big difference in audio quality.

Just searching for answers before spending the greenback.

HBombtoo

[Aaron]

[In my settup, I have bi-Amped, not just bi-wired, my fronts and center and from a cable management standpoint it would clean things up by going with 4in1 cable but I'm not convinced that I would hear or detect a big difference in audio quality.
Uh-oh! Do I detect another ghetto bi-amper??? Do you actually have two amps or are you just using the A and B terminals?

Aaron

[HBombToo]

NO Bud!!! I am configured as Mr. DiComo reffers as Half Baked...

Split the PreAmp and run into two separate Amps out to the Speakers. Two Amps per speaker... Big difference on Center Channel and bass improvement of my 800i's.

Ghetto Bi-Amper Sock:LOL:

[Aaron]

Ahhh, I can breathe a sigh of relief! You had me worried for a minute.

Aaron

[RuSsMaN]

And I bet his amps are the same, not like he used a Yammie and a Sony.......

Cheers,
Russ

[HBombToo]

The Outlaw 770, 7 X 200Wrms/channel. The wife is not always happy with me...

[nascarmann]

The Outlaw 770, 7 X 200Wrms/channel. The wife is not always happy with me...

Until you crank up the Outlaw..... :D

[mantis]

If I got your question correctly,
Bi wiring is usually a better way to go.Lots of Improvement over using the single wire to one set of postd then using the factory jumpers.
To make things seemless, use the same length and same bi wire for all 3 up front.
If your asking if pre made bi wire cables are better then using 2 2 wires and making it yourself,well It depends on what kind of wire you use.It also is a neater run with all 4 conductors in one jacket.
I would do a search on bi wiring ,there has been many posts on this topic.

[liv4fam]

Hey HbombToo, Why do you waste your time bi-amping RT800I's? One of your amps cost more than your pair of speakers, maybe you should stop being ghetto and buy better speakers and stop wasting your electronics. Another thing how much pre-out loss are you getting of your patch cable y-adapter and do you even know how sensitive your amp is and how much voltage they need to see to hit there full dynamic range? To everybody in the forum I am not a newbie I am Mantis's install partner at Tweeter and I tired of hearing about people doing Ghetto stuff with there electronics. (A 300 dollar circuit city receiver is not a high-end Home Theater pre-amp.) Use your head

[ezc]

thanks for the info. I thinkl Ill try the bi wire on three front speakers. I have LSi15 front mains & LSiC center. Ill order the cables & try it. Ill post my results! Thanks !

[TroyD]

Man, liv4fam just jumps right in and starts insulting mofos.......hmmmmmm. Seems some folks don't work and play well with others.

Why don't we all just clam up and let Dan and his partner have the forum. Obviously we have nothing of value to offer.

LH

[mantis]

You see TroyD.....your not the only one with a running buddy.
Thanks for playing BIG DUMB you can try again later.
I see you have a problem when your on the receiving end.

[RuSsMaN]

Oh boy, another term tosser in the loop. This should be fun. Tweeter now eh? I guess this is why we are experiencing the paradigm shift from Transparent to Monster. ;)

liv4fam, what would you suggest he buy, perhaps a Sony receiver and some Bose from his local Tweeter store?

Do you even know what amp(s) he has? Why don't you ask RonP how much he 'lost' using Y-cables.... Very disappointing Mantis. You should have brought in your store manager, someone with a little class, and just doesn't start in a rant without providing any reasoning or facts.....

Cheers,
Russ

[nascarmann]

liv4fam

I normally welcome everyone to the forum.......oh well. When we start by insulting a member for no apparent reason:rolleyes: .....one might wonder the character of a person that does this.....fun and games are great at times but insulting HBombToo for no reason is not fun and games;) have fun here and treat people with respect if they treat you this way.....I will try and let you earn back my respect:)

[HBombToo]

liv4fam, I appreciate your comments because I am new to this game and have a lot to learn. There are reasons why I have configured my system the way it is. The first and biggest reason is I am a very curiouse type of individual and like to try STUFF and tinker. "Drives my wife nuts" The second reason is I am attempting to put together, within my means and understanding a damn good HT settup that can grow from ground up. You are close in your analysis that 1 of my amps runs close to what a pair of 800i's run but if you think for a minute that I did not consider that, your very wrong.

Now lets talk specifications:
Outlaw Voltage In for full power out @ 200Watts is 1.43 volts, Published. I contacted Outlaw for confirmation and They also reported that the 770 is designed such that it conforms to THX standards and puts out 100W @ 1 Volt in. I also contacted H/k regarding my 520 and they have designed their PreAmps such that they will drive to nearly 2.2Volts which far exceeds the input requirments of the Outlaw.

If you follow the posts closely here on the Forum you will find that I also asked the question regarding losses of an RCA Y. Dr Spec graciously answered my question regarding this. After the Docs response I realized that my question did not make sense nor does your statement. If you think about it liv4fam, its Voltage across the Amp from the PreAmp and with an RCA Y we don't spit the voltage we split the current. You should review Kirchaufs voltage and current laws.... With that being said, the high current h/k is doing a very nice job driving the Outlaw in this configuration.

As for speakers what would you recommend??? I have chosen to stay away from powered towers, and the 800i is an effin good speaker for the pay point. While I was in college back in 1990 I worked my ass off for a summer in the North East doing Thermal studies on the Power Grids for United Illuminating and Boston Edison and saved as much money as possible. With the savings I purchased my first set of speakers which were the Polk RTA8T's. I still own them and LUV THEM. Just rebuilt them. With a 10 year old Polk speaker and the new 800i's my system sounds Sweeeeet. I figure I have many years of reliable enjoyment from my New Polks along with the RTA's.

Furthermore, my reasoning behind Bi-Amping was a trial to see what happens to the clarity of sound across the full band. My thoughts as an Engineer was that lower freq consumes more Amp resources than the highs and what I perceive now is just amazing sound clarity across all bands. Its tuned up and balanced @ 85 dB with an SPL meter and I am happy.

As far as my electronics is concerned, WTF is so bad about circuit city products??? **** the h/k 520 has all the processors I need except THX which does not make sense for me right now! BTW you should do a price check on the 520 @ CC... Its a tad bit higher than 300 dollars but if you can find 1 for that on ebay I suggest you try it because its a damn good box. I was not happy with the power out of the 520 so I bought an Amp. From 75 to 200 Watts per channel and by the time I looked at the Pay Point between the THX h/k and the Outlaw I nearly broke even. I probably won't upgrade h/k for many years or untill I build my own theater which is also many years from now. My Cal Labs CL 20 does not do DTS but ****, when I bought the sucker it was the leading edge. A 24 bit dac, HDCD along with DVD and it is still GREAT. Ya sure I would like to be able to do DTS and I'll be there sooner than later. A lot of folks like Denon, Sony and many other types, SO, what makes 1 better than the other? PERSONAL TASTE... which Makes the world go round.

I thank all on the Forum for your consideration.

Regards
HBombToo

[HBombToo]

Oh, BTW... I are an engineer and Kant SPLELL berry gid so plis frgiff meee.

HBombtoo

[mantis]

Hbombtoo,
heres the real deal with using a receiver as a preamp.This is also why I said awhile ago.
I/WE have seen receivers with amps running on them not drived to there full potential.Ok I can give you an example.
We mated a Denon avr3801 with an Onkyo 2 channel(I forget the model number)250x2 power amp,it had volt meters on the front of it and had wood side panels,nice amp.We listened to it on a preamp at the stereo exchange.It had massive power reserves and really good depth.The amp was hooked up to the Denon avr3801 and fell on it's face.The Denon's output voltage was alot lower then the preamp we heard it first on.It took the Denon almost full power just to get the meters rockin.Then at this point the sound quality suffered.
Just for another reference.....we has a Yamaha rxv1 mated with a B&K ref 2220 which is 220x2.Super great amp when mated with the B&K PT3BII,but mate it with Yamah and the pure clean sound quality goes in the toliet.Its not that the receivers are bad peices, stand alone they do quite nice.They just didn't power the amps as well as a pre amp did.Same brand usually sounds the best.

I personally think your post was done vey well.And I'm also glad your setup is working for you.But if you ever get the extra cash,I bet the Outlaw preamp would drive those amps better.Sound quality would likely Improve as well.

This is a small learning experience that we underwent and discovered the MATING THEORY.You guys call it THE MANTIS THEORY.And make jokes about it whenever is possible.
But it works pretty well.We have tested this theory over and over.

As far as what would I run your rt800i's with??I wouldn't go seperates with them,Id go with a good quality receiver like the Denon avr3802 or even the avr4802.Both have the ability to make them sing and not break the bank.
Remember you have to factor in good cables between the preamp and amp.Lots of money for 800.00 speakers.The point is that the seperates exceed the sound quality of your speakers.The seperates could shine better with better speakers.Like the LSI line,they scream for seperates or at least a flagship receiver.

It's your call in the end.This post is just for a different point of view.Use it if it helps you in any way or dissagree with and and smile.I'm cool any way you go.
Good luck with your system man.

[nascarmann]

I think BDT may be right......this forum has..... mantis I can't believe you think it's OK for your buddy to jump in here and start insulting members that have done NOTHING to him or said NOTHING to him.....I may be wrong but I don't think HBombToo has ever said anything cross about you either? Reading these post the last few days is just turning me off from this forum......Maybe it is time for me to step back for a while :rolleyes:

[HBombToo]

Mantis, I think you are correct about the LSI Line and trust me I have had my droooool on.

OK Mantis... why would the Outlaw preAmp do a better job than the h/k? I gave you the Specs and they are well matched so what kind of difference should/could I expect? Are there reasons other than perception that could point toward an increase in performance? Can you show me in the published literature why 1 works better than the other? Let me point out for analysis sake that now for an 85 dB SPL the h/k is at -15 dB and can go to +20 dB. I hear NO Noise and all my cables are 12 guage.

As an aside, I have a pretty thick hide and was not offended by your bud but you have to admit his tone was rather harsh. I think that if we were in a Bar drinking a cold 1 it may have came across in a different light. I believe he could have made the same point without being so in your face, which is what everybody is trying to convey here.

Nascarmann, don't you go anywhere! I have toooo much fun with you man.

[mantis]

TO ALL IN THE FORUM.............
I had nothing to do with liv4fam coming in here and exploding on people other then I 've been telling him about the attitudes that fly around in here.
We had a lengthy discussion about online audio and video forums.He loves this hobbie(and job for us)as much as I do.We came to the conclusion that most online forums talk more about sex,he said she said,and anything else but audio and video.His anger is in all forums and wouldn't mind being a part of a really good one.
This forum is one of the best I had ever been into.It's geared more towards Polk owners(which he is in the psw1200 sub),but if we all cleaned up our acts alittle and try to leave our attitudes at the door, I think this forum could get right back on track.
The last few days where some ugly ones.I added much to it as well.I'm a big enough man to say I was wrong for plenty I said around here.
I can't speak for my partner liv4fam,but hes a really good guy and could benifit this forum.I know where hes coming from with his ranting.It's up to him if he wants to come in here and chat with us.
As far as I'm concerned,As long as nobody attacks me and wants to talk audio and video...I'm completely game.

[danger boy]

after reading the posts in here. it's suddenly become very clear why i left this forum for a month. nothing has changed, and some people just have to much time on their hands.
please use the English language correctly. your, you're .... their, there

[TroyD]

I'm just going to throw this out there.....I'm not an engineer or even particularly smart on the subject but here is my .02.

The voltage produced from the preouts on just about ANY receiver should be enough to sufficiently drive an amp. The source, IE my cd player has an output of 2.2 volts, my old POS cd player is 2....more than enough to drive an amp ( hence, why I use a passive preamp). So, it would follow that as long as long as there was no significant loss of signal through the receiver, that the voltage thing is a non-issue?

BDT

[HBombToo]

Agreed, TroyD

[RuSsMaN]

Just as long as you aren't running Polks with those amp(s), you should be ok. Don't want your electronics wasted.....that's all... ;)

High five brother! (implied in the gayest of gay voices)

Cheers,
Russ

[HBombToo]

I was thinking about trading in my 800i's for those Bose cubes that hit ebay this morning. That should bring some real fire to my living room.

The more realistic the better right?

[RuSsMaN]

Or, simply modify the logo on your Polks, call them 'Le Polke' or some such, tell your hifi buddies they are French, and you paid $3300 a piece for them.....

Let the ooohs and aaahs begin.....

Cheers,
Russ

[TroyD]

I'm SOOOO biting my friggin toungue right now........


BDT

[HBombToo]

Let it rip Troy

[TroyD]

Well, It would just seem to me that the Dynamic Duo, Dan and his partner, the boy blunder, might not have thier ducks in a row on this issue.

And for the record, I have a passive preamp, and all the specs for my souces at the house if need be not to mention EXTENSIVE testing.

BDT

[mantis]

So,
The personal attacks aren't going to quite.
I voiced my opnion and exactly what I found by doing this.I stand as it is.You all can hook up your systems,drive them with whatever floats your boat,you will not find this in my system.
Nor will I give any help,opnion on this type for setup.
Like I said time and time again,this is what I personally have experienced,not what theory I dreamed up like most of you!

[mantis]

TroyD,
are you sure you don't have a receiver unplugged in the wall as your passive preamp???
If you not running a receiver as your preamp for your beloved 2 channel setup,why not???????

[liv4fam]

Hey Troy, You just can't quit can you? Don't you want to come into this forum and just talk about your beloved polks? I really don't want to waste my time in this forum as I actually have better stuff to do with my time. But you and Russman keep picking on everybody even though you say that you don't. So I will hang out until you stop or leave. I am not like Dan, I don't care who you are or what equipment you own but I do know you talk a lot of SMACK!! You accuse us of offering no help or hard data on any subject but let me tell something SPECS are exactly what they are SPECULATIONS!!!!! Go out and listen to Transparent vs. Monster or Yamaha HTR vs. RXV and hear the differences with your own ears to determines if equipment is good or bad. If you rely on specs you know absolute nothing about equipment. Do you really believe that the Denon AVR-5800 has a 170watts-7? Well it doesn't it does 82watts all channels driven. Bench-tested ourselves. How's that for your specs? Another thing about using receivers with power amps, even though you use an amplifier you are still getting all the noise and crap of your cheapy Circuit City receiver. Use a yamaha receiver as a preamp and put an integra adm 2.1 amp in with it and what do you get? An earbleed and a headache!! It's not the integra but the extremely high and bright yamaha preamp. So troy and russman until you get out from in front of your computer why don't you go into the real world and actually listen and test stuff so you can stop guessing and quoting specs to everybody. Until you do SHUT IT!!!!!!!!!!

[TroyD]

Way to stay on topic there boy blunder.

You can't PAY for entertainment this good, I tell ya.

Now, I think Dan and I have come to a truce, the boy blunder reference was all about you, cochese. I think Dan might have put you up to coming in here but I think he distanced himself when he saw what a jackass you turned out to be. Good on you, Dan.

Let's see, lemme go look at my 2 ch rig // walking down the hall.....walking back// NOPE, no receivers or Polks in there. Just Adcom, Carver, AMC and Dahlquist.....

Having said that, I don't care what the output is RMS for any receiver, I don't think that is what we were talking about. You, as a I recall were tossing terms about voltages. Now I can empirically prove that a high out put source can drive an amp with just passive volume control as has HBomb. Given that, as long as there is no signal loss, which would seem MOST unlikely, using a receiver as a preamp, there is no issue with enough voltage to drive the amp. Go get some of your product manuals and look.

Keep it flowing, the entertainment value is high.

BDT

Dan, this is not meant at you at all just for the other dude.

[TroyD]

Furthermore, how much power, continuous do think that most folks REALLY consume anyway?

Let's say, for the sake of argument that you are correct. Why are you NOT suing Denon for false advertising? The power ratings are published under Federal guidlines so that would be illegal, NO?

More to the point, who friggin' cares? I don't notice a lot of people complaining about clipping it so would it not be a moot point?? IMO (that's opinion, as in mine) 50wpc of good clean power in MOST applications is very sufficient.

Now, calm down and let's discuss this like adults. You wanna come in with guns blazing acting like a jackass? Well, that's how you are going to be treated.

Troy

[RuSsMaN]

Nothing really to add, well said Troy. That was top form, I tell ya, it don't GET any better, of course that chump lobbed up a softball the size of a watermelon, so it wasn't exactly a challenge.....

Cheers,
Laughing (but VERY intimidated by liv4fam) Russ

[Aaron]

Why is it that you guys need to "prove" that you know more than anyone else here? Do you think stating your resume helps? Just drop it! Can someone just have an opinion without starting a **** storm? Is it possible for two people to hold a differing opinion? This is worse than a dick comparing contest! I'm not saying Russ and Troy are innocent here, but they certainly take a more open-minded approach to this whole thing.

Aaron

[TroyD]

BTW, my 2ch rig, the preamp is an ADCOM SLC-505.

Troy

[nascarmann]

liv4fam

I have tried to stay out of this crap..... Now, let me tell you one thing I do know......RX-V800 and HTR-5280 are the same exact receiver.....period! Test it...kick it...lick it...xuck it...the only thing you will find different is the markings on the outside. How do I know this....I have had both of them apart at the same time....if you here a difference....maybe enough said!


Use a yamaha receiver as a preamp and put an integra adm 2.1 amp in with it and what do you get? An earbleed and a headache!! It's not the integra but the extremely high and bright yamaha preamp.

Lets talk about this.....I can't say what an integra amp will sound like with a Yamaha receiver.....but I can tell you my Yamaha M-85 my (2) M-80's and my (2) M-70's sound very nice with my Yamaha receiver. But I do use Polk speakers....SDA's....sould I sell these and get something new.....Please give me a reveiw of the SDA line? I just bought a Yamaha C-80 pre-amp and with the little amount of time I have had with it....My receiver is not put to shame....

I don't like getting in these type threads....I like joking around and talking a little electronics and just having fun.....looking at your post......well enough said:rolleyes:

[TroyD]

I will say this, in all candor, I'm not saying that using a receiver as a preamp is ideal. My issue, and I can converse intelligently, is that voltage isn't really the issue.

Dan, again, I'm not being sarcastic to you, I think we just have differing opinions and experiences here.

Troy

[briancs]

Originally by Liv4fam:
"SPECS are exactly what they are SPECULATIONS!!!!!"
Ok I don't do anything comparable to you most of youguys for a living. I don't have a college degree. I am not terribly smart, though not to the point of being autistic.
But I thought specs was short for specIFICATIONS!
Am I wrong or just the only person that noticed this?
Damn you guys don't have to spell right, but at least use the right word.

[RuSsMaN]

Yeah, we noticed, I'm hoping he was going for a play on words, but somehow that seems doubtful......

Cheers,
Russ

[briancs]

Russ that made me laugh out loud! Funny as hell man. Are you withdrawn do you want to live in Montana as a hermit? Because that image is sure to piss someone off. Not me though. I believe in equal opportunity I hate everyone. Till they prove I shouldn't. :D So far all you guys are cool except that one guy who is pissing everyone off.

[briancs]

Now you four that are fighting. Why don't you just get in the sack and get it over with. You sound like four people all married to eachother. Now lets quit this crap before you all get the boot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[TroyD]

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH

OMG, that is friggin' HILARIOUS!

GREATNESS, man, GREATNESS!

BDT

[TroyD]

liv4fam,

Issues man, I posted my view, bs aside, what's your take? You been lurking in this post for awhile now.

BDT

[liv4fam]

Troy answer me this, How is output voltage measured? If a receiver's main,surround,center,sub preout is 4.0 volts for example is it always pushing 4 volts or is that maximum output. Where does it fully reach 4 volts? Does it push maximum output at low levels? How much distortion is the receiver putting through to the preouts? Obviously you don't think voltage has anything to do with anything so prove me wrong. Can you reach maximum dynamics and full headroom if you hook up a Harmon Kardon 520 to a Krell FPB 300c amplifier or a Mark levinson No. 33. I want to hear what you have to say (Don't quote specs to me) give me real world data that you have heard and tested.

[Aaron]

Oh man, I busted a lung!

Aaron

[RuSsMaN]

Liv4fam is term tossing again, now he's quoting ML.... good god, be afraid, look at the brand he mentioned!!!

Tell you what dip****, why don't you simply state your point, instead of insisting others prove you wrong. All you have done, may I say, you pansy-ass mofo, is quote a few terms, throw out some names, bash fellow members gear, yet through all the jibbersish, you have said nothing. Effiin nothing, but then again, I expected no more.

Say something already...put down the playdoh, and say something. G'head, quote a manual, or some literature a rep gave you, just say SOMETHING meaningful....

(forum members, prepare for the next round of wide-open sphincter spillage from our friend, liv4fam)

Cheers,
Russ

Thank you, thank you SO much Dan for turning this moron onto the forum, please take credit, I owe you!!!

[TroyD]

Ok, let's deal with the issue at hand....




Outlaw Voltage In for full power out @ 200Watts is 1.43 volts, Published. I contacted Outlaw for confirmation and They also reported that the 770 is designed such that it conforms to THX standards and puts out 100W @ 1 Volt in. I also contacted H/k regarding my 520 and they have designed their PreAmps such that they will drive to nearly 2.2Volts which far exceeds the input requirments of the Outlaw.

If you accept that as true, and I'll take it at face value, your argument holds no water. Most sources will produce in the neighborhood of 2 volts which will drive the amp sufficiently with out the benefit of the ADDED voltage of a preamp.

Can I prove this in REAL world testing? Not with a Krell amp but with a Carver m1.5t (350wpc) I can tell you that a straight signal from the source with only passive attenuation to the amp will drive the amp as loud as you care to listen. Russ has also demoed this preamp on a Carver m400a, (201 wpc) and will attest to similar results.

Now, can it run to exhaust the headroom? I dunno but it's a moot point, even if it could, just about any speaker you could come up with would fry before you got to that point so it's not worth the time to consider.

So, not only do I have hard data but real world testing. Look man, this isn't rocket science here....

Care to continue?

Troy

[nascarmann]

sub preout is 4.0 volts for example is it always pushing 4 volts or is that maximum output

Uhm.....with volume off you would have 0.0 volts in real world data


always pushing 4 volts or is that maximum output

Uhm.....max


Does it push maximum output at low levels?

Uhm.....if you read my last 2 answers this has been answered


How much distortion is the receiver putting through to the preouts?

Uhm.....never seen a volt distort.....I'm no engineer though


. Can you reach maximum dynamics and full headroom if you hook up a Harmon Kardon 520 to a Krell FPB 300c amplifier or a Mark levinson No. 33. I want to hear what you have to say (Don't quote specs to me) give me real world data that you have heard and tested.

Well.....damn you have got me there.....I have not tested this with real world data.....I need to borrow your manual you forgot to give the customer......

[RuSsMaN]

C'mon nascarmann, you don't have a 'bench' to test? Liv4fam only seems to stop talking (writing) long enough to switch feet.

KING PREAMP, live long my brotha....

Cheers,
Laughing Hysterically Now, Russ

[fireshoes]

Can you guys keep the off-topic stuff in the off-topic forum please? It's hard to believe this thread started as a simple question about bi-wiring. If you aren't going to post something meaningful, please, I'm sure many of us would appreciate it if you just didn't post at all.

My $.02

[mantis]

TroyD,
Thanks for the redirect on my partner,and stop thanking me guys,I'm going to say this again.I DIDN'T BRING HIM IN HERE HE CAME ON HIS OWN,HE OWNS THE PSW1200 SUB,HAS THE RIGHT TO BE HERE.JUST LIKE ALL OF YOU.

Think about it guys,everybodies up in roar over his outlandis style of posting.Is it really any different then what MOST of us have done to each other in the past???Really, think about it before you start replied and pointing fingers.

I came forth trying to end this Insane maddness in here.Believe it or not he wasn't going to WASTE his time in here with us,but you guys just can't leave it alone.

Even me,I want to stop posting bull**** but if things don't change soon, I'm going to go even crazier then Liv4fam could dream of doing.....you think hes bad let me get started!!!!!!!WE together will ruin this forum for everyone..................I don't want that at all.

So with that being said can we PLEASE just let the MADDNESS go???
He(liv4fam)will back off if you guys do.Believe me he will stop at nothing untill he pisses all of you off completely.I will also say this,your pissing me off right along with all of this.

ToryD...you seem to have come 2 a truce with me.I will answer your questions about topic's that you feel I didn't address.I would love to TALK CIVIL about anything you want.But with all this MADDNESS I just want to rip EVERYONES FACE OFF.

I also want all the personal **** to stop about what I do for a living.If I TOLD you guys what I make,most of you would SHUT THE HELL UP.

LISTEN VERY CARFULLY...........this needs to end here.EFF the male ego and move on and post ELSEWHERE where we can get back to enjoying our systems we built.I'd love to talk to the first REAL person about audio and video.Without all the bashing and crying.

Remember this as well guys...I'M AS MUCH FAULT AS EVERYONE ELSE.It takes all of this to continue and only one the stop it.
Again I want out.Please don't force me to REPLY IN ANGER.I want nothing of.Push me and I will bite your face off.Speak to me and we all can get along.

As far as Liv4fam????????It's up to you guys and him.Don't INSULT HIM anymore about what he does for a living.........your offending ME PERSONALLY AS WELL.Fight nicely, remember I work with the dude everyday and we get along verywell,hes also a friend.I can't take responsability for his actions.I told him about what goes on in here,and he said it's the same in all these EFFED up forums and thats why he doesn't come in here (then).For his own reasons and I will not speak for him,He felt the need to come in here and lay rath.Instead of fighting fire with fire,try the softer aproach,hell it might all wash itself out in the end.......I'm counting on it.
Dan

[TroyD]

Dan,

Agreed in your case. Truce has been called and look forward to moving on.

As far as your partner, he is the one that started his own fiasco so as far as I'm concerned, he is the one that owes the forum an apology. I prefer to discuss things in a civil manner but if he wants to be an ass, well, that just won't pass. ESPECIALLY since he can't seem to string together a coherent post or stay on topic. It would seem that he wants to insult us and dazzle us with terms that he read somewhere.

Having said all that, I would like a civil response to anything I posted. If I am wrong fine, as I did with the CS400 thing, I'll admit it. But in this case with the voltage thing, I'm not wrong. I've got the hard data and LOTS of testing on my side.

Troy

[mantis]

TroyD,
Thanks cool dude.Moving on would be nice.
As far as Liv4fam just reading stuff somewhere,not to defend him,but he knows his **** very well.He has been doing this for a very long time.He was been factory trained countless times.
I know you guys don't want to hear this but he doesn't talk out his butt hole,not emplyng anything on anyone.He might piss all of you off very well, but a bull****ter he's not,my partner/friend or not.
He comes acroos really wild and strong,I read his posts.His points and questions have all been experience,not running around the internet trying to find facts/fiction or whatever.Credit he has,hes been involved in some of the biggest job this Industry has to offer.The entire voltage thing as I posted before is alittle part of some of the experience we both underwent.The ability to drive a amp to it's fullest potential was not met with receivers we have used in the past,nor was sound quality.
TroyD.....your a 2 channel guy,maybe not an expert but you have plenty of experience with pre amps to realise that maybe not looking at it from a voltage standpoint but from a sound quality and dynamic standpoint, there is plenty of differences between preamps.Powered or passive.You see in my and I'm sure ours,sound quality is what real world knowledge.Spec's are good to get going but when the spec says this and the sound quality isn't there when It should be,how do you explain that??
Allright with that being said,
Dan

[TroyD]

That's cool Dan, and I'll agree to that. If it doesn't sound good, it doesn't sound good and all the numbers in the world don't matter. I'll agree with you whole heartedly. Further, I've agreed that using a receiver as a preamp isn't ideal, certainly, but, as I've shown, from an electricity standpoint and an experience standpoint, we have shown that it can work.

All, I am saying is that, the factory specs don't bear out the claims your buddy has made. All that said, in this forum, we are all on equal footing. All his experience and whatever does not give him, me, you or anyone else, the excuse to act like a complete *******. So far, that's all he has done, that, and toss out a few terms that are very easily refutable.

My last post on topic, was posted respectfully and to the point, as is this one. So, if your pal wants to act like a stand up guy and apologize and discuss things like an adult, that would be fine.

[Micah Cohen]

You guys are effing hilarious. You can FILL THREE FORUM THREAD PAGES arguing about something that is completely pointless and subject to personal opinion. I'd love to sponsor a Polk Audio Ultimate Fight Night at your local bar, you know those things where idiots get in a makeshift ring and slog it out in fisticuffs for the other idiots. I'd bet on you all. Gleefully.

From now on, if anyone says anything that causes anyone else to ask them to apologize, they will be hogtied and keelhauled, then dipped in honey and left next to an anthill. Fire ants.

For goodness sakes, yokels, THESE ANSWERS ARE YOUR OPINIONS.

Here are some of my opinions:

- If you drink Budweiser, you're not really drinking beer and you shouldn't claim to.
- If you're under 30 and married, you're wasting your life.
- If you like any music made within the last 10 years, you're a tasteless slob.
- Tom Hanks sucks and can't act.

Should I go on? Got prollems wit anything I say? KEEP IT TO YOURSELF.

Assuming we've ANSWERED THE ORIGINAL QUESTION, way back on one of the previous pages, I'm locking this baby down. Nothing more to see here. Move on.

Losers. Stop hijacking my forum for your own stupid fights. KEEP IT CIVIL.

MC