SVS PB 12 + help please

[Schwingding]

I've had my new PB 12 + for going on a month now I suppose.

I can't find settings that both please me and keep the thing from bottoming out on very low HT scenes. For the record, I am not a bass hound, nor do I listen very loud - typically the highest SPLs I see during movie playback are in the 90-100 range, average is 60's.

The gain is turned up approximately 1/3 of the way. After the AVR does its auto setup I have further backed down the LFE channel by - 2.5db.

Examples of scenes that make this sub bottom out - the rocketship ignition/take off from the Incredibles. King Kong landing on the ground in the scene where he defeats the final T-Rex. The opening scene from "Attack of the Clones" where the ship explodes.

I am generally thrilled by this piece of equipment. It does things like I never imagined. If I trim the config down to the point where these scenes do not cause bottoming, then I generally have little or no sub output in the more moderate low frequency range.

I have the sub set to the 20 hz tune. When I alter it to 16Hz or the 12Hz tune, the bottoming out effect is decreased, but not totally eliminated.

I can't even imagine what anyone would need the gain levels above 1/2 way for on this sub with it bottoming out at 1/3 gain.

I don't think my sub is broken in any way, but let me tell ya, it really takes away from those intense scenes when it suddenly sounds like your sub is exploding.

Your help appreciated.

Edit, I should say that other "bass impressive" scenes, like the Darla/glass tap scene from Nemo, do nothing other than make me grin from ear to ear. Same with the explosions in U571. Go figure.

[janmike]

Congrats on the sub. I own the same one. I am going to pass on some words that Ron from SVS gave me. These are his words and I followed them to a tee. I used to own a Yamaha RX-V1500 and sold it for other gear.

"As the owners manual suggests, having the SVS gain in lower half of its range (from one quarter to one half up) is the best place to start adjustments. Keep in mind that your receiver has its OWN gain for the subwoofer output and given this the position of the SVS gain, in isolation, means virtually nothing. In other words, depending on the size of your room, how far you sit from the sub and the receiver’s master volume control AND its separate subwoofer gain control… you could have your SVS totally maxed out at only ¼ of its gain up. Or it could be well under its capacity even turned up all the way.

This is the reason why that SPL meter is THE final (and really only) arbiter on how you set your gain. Again in the manual, it’s generally better to run the SVS gain up fairly high, and your receiver’s subwoofer output level fairly low (not pegged all the way down though) to keep the input signal to the SVS clean."

"The auto setup on the Yamaha is not to be relied on for your sub. I’ve seen these systems set things ALL over the place. A simple SPL meter and Avia is really what you need. The relative settings on the sub’s gain are really quite meaningless unless the meter is providing a basis for measure.
Make sure you don’t have LFE going to your mains too, many Yamaha allow this I believe.
Also, go thru and make sure you have any/all “DRC” choices or “Midnight modes disabled.
Finally, and this is very critical and done wrong more than you might imagine, check your DVD player setup. Even if its connected with a coaxial (single RCA) or fiber optic connection the player could default to “PCM” output not Dolby Digital/DTS. PCM would result in quite a bit less bass and dynamic range."


Hope this helps. Enjoy.

[Schwingding]

Thanks Michael. The only question I have about what Ron sent you is with regard to the Dynamic Range compression. the choices are STD/MIN/MAX. Disable is not an option. I can't recall what setting I have selected, to be honest.

[MikeC78]

Make sure the selector switch on the sub amp is on the right tune also.

[Schwingding]

Thanks Mike. It most definitely is. Of that I could not be more certain.

[MikeC78]

What is the size of your room? One of them might not be able to keep up and you might need two?

I also find it quite odd that the sub isn't bottoming out on lower tunes as much?? Something isn't right here, it should be quite the opposite. I can blast my PCU's(native tune / 20hz) all day long at reference and never have them bottom out.

I'm guessing you calibrated? I'd also email SVS with this dilemna. I think you might have a faulty 20hz subsonic filter problem in the amp? Strange...

Mike

[Schwingding]

Well Eric at SVS and I spec'd this one out. The room is 19'x25' with 7.5' ceilings. I really doubt that it requires an add'l sub as there can be an incredible amount of LFE going on in that room from the sub. It is only these very very short duration intense LFE moments that cause anything at all like a problem. We'll see I guess. Tom V at SVS is helping me at present, too. WAF is not going to permit a 2nd sub at present, more of a $$ issue than room.

[Sherardp]

calibration I think is key to SVs products. I have pb12 plus 2 and while my setup is calibrated there are times I thought I was bottoming out but it was just the bass hitting so hard and low. Kinda scary actually. I have read on another forum with an owner of the same sub experiencing your problem, however it was due to improper setup in the avr. You can check other forums, hometheaterforum and avsforum and see if you can get any good info there. I hope you get the situation worked out, I watched war of the worlds a few times to see if mine would bottom out but it didnt happen.

[janmike]

So when you guys say bottoming out, what sound are you hearing? I just hear real deep bass. Is the bottoming out loud thumps?

[Ricardo]

^^^^What he asked...I wonder what you mean by bottoming out; I have a 20-39 PC+ and all I hear and feel is great...

[Schwingding]

It sounds like parts are smashing together, in a loud "blap, blap, blap" kind of sound. What is heard is most definitely NOT part of the soundtrack. It is an unmistakable "oh, thats not good" sound.

[MillerLiteScott]

Maybe your LFE signal is to hot from the AVR and is reaching the sub with distortion. Like Ron said maybe if you lower the LFE signal and turn up the sub amp you will have a real clean signal going to your sub. The sub may even perform better because of the elevated gain level.

I am just guessing and hope I will have a similiar problem in the not to distant future.

Scott

[Schwingding]

Last night I spent a good deal of time working on my setup. I recalibrated the sub using the Rives CD and test tones on my AVR with the Radio Shack SPL. The sub was running 3-4 db hot, but most people seem to run them a bit hot to their liking - I'm no exception.

Recalibrated down to exact SPLs of the other speakers, the bottoming out did not occur, but neither did I have any bass to speak of.

I then turned the LFE level down as far as it would go on the AVR ( - 10 db), and recalibrated the sub, turning up its gain accordingly. Cleaner, no doubt, but in order to get anything like impressive bass response in the mid bass range, I had to add 5 or so decibels to the sub, and then it would bottom out on the toughest tracks as identified in the original post.

At this point, I'm convinced that the sub just can't keep up with the carpet over concrete floor and 3500 cu. ft. of room space. The SVS folks are similarly convinced, and they have made me a very reasonable offer on a PB-12/2. They say it has a good 5db or so additional clean bass throughout the range, which should give the bottom end the headroom I need to keep from a bottom out situation again.

Oh poor, poor me, I need a BIGGER sub. On the way. Will report back when installed.

[BIZILL]

if the pb-12/2 doesn't float your boat.......then the problem is just you.:rolleyes:

but seriously, you won't regret it.;)

[Shizelbs]

That is very nice of SVS to cut a deal with you on the larger sub. Are they taking the old one back?

[Schwingding]

It is indeed very nice of them to ensure their customers are happy. I'd prefer to leave the financial details out, but assure you that it was certainly fair. They will take the old one back, if I want to send it back...it recently occured to me that I will soon have dual SVS subs in my basement.............

[Sherardp]

dual svs subs, youre a lucky guy for sure. If you manage to bottom out the pb 12 plus /2 I would surely like to know what the heck is going on in that basement.

[nebborjk]

Schwingding,

Maybe its possible you've got yourself so used to running the sub +3-5 db hot that when presented with neutral bass (+0 Db) you were merely not accustomed to the sound. Similar experiment would be to find a friend who uses tone controls (treble +10/Bass +10) and set them all back to zero. Chances are they will think it sounds like garbage at first, but after awhile they won't be able to go to the way it was before.

Food for thought.

[Ricardo]

My room is bigger than that (4000 cubic feet) and am quite happy with the bass from the 20-39 PC+, which is as I understand the cylinder equivalent to the PB12+.....maybe the difference is that mine is in hardfloor (laminate) over concrete; this for sure helps get those waves everywhere faster...

Good luck....I just hope that with the new one you don't crack the foundations of your house :)

[Sherardp]

Post up when you get it setup and calibrated, Im about to order a SB 12 for the bedroom setup.

[Schwingding]

Will do, and thanks for all of the help and responses folks. Between yall , AVSFORUM and Tom and Ron from SVS we surely have an answer.

I have a PB12/2 on its way to the house. The SVS folks have suggested I also try running both subs, which of course I'll give a shot! Here's what they suggest to try:

"Put them side by side, or get help, and carefully put the PB12-Plus on top of the Plus/2 even (just put a towel between them or something). Set both to 20hz (one plug in the Plus/2, all ports open in the PB12-Plus), calibrate one at a time, then together for a +6dB boost overall, (use phase to get them that way if you are off at all), and sit back and set your combined twin sub levels wherever you dare."

I am actually a little fearful of this combination, but not so much as to not try it. Glad I ran a few dedicated 20 amp circuits for my HT equipment!

[Ricardo]

I'd love to be there to hear those two beasts :)

[Sherardp]

stand by for a massive bass beating with both of those things paired together, I would love to be in the mix of all that. WOW.

[danger boy]

Hmmm? i'm thinking something else is wrong here. to bottom out a SVS sub of that size can't be easy.. i think maybe your driver OR subwoofer amp is bad or something. Sounds odd to me. after having it a month.. and when turned down you have nearly no bass output.

Either way.. glad that SVS is standing by their products.

[Dennis Gardner]

Its not the SVS..............its the mid-bass addiction of the listener. He said it himself, he hasn't become accustomed to hearing how a sub should compliment his speakers, not overrule them. SVS has dealt with this since they started making subs. The wimpy old subs that we replace were midbass kings and we expect that type of bass to be even more prominent with the new SVS sub and theirs are designed to deliver flat bass in that 50-100hz region, thus sounding inferior to our poorly trained ears.

I still remember how many car audio guys setting up their SVS tubes for the first time complained that they just couldn't get the chest thump they were used to getting from their cars systems, and hated the clean, smooth bass they got from their new HT setup. It takes a ton of subwoofer to pressurize a 3500 cubic ft room.

Congrats on getting an SVS that can handle all your needs.

[danger boy]

Its not the SVS..............its the mid-bass addiction of the listener. He said it himself, he hasn't become accustomed to hearing how a sub should compliment his speakers, not overrule them. ...It takes a ton of subwoofer to pressurize a 3500 cubic ft room.
Congrats on getting an SVS that can handle all your needs.

I agree with a room that size it will take a big subwoofer to pressureize it. but.. ask most of the SVS owners.. and i doubt that they hardly ever bottom out their SVS's. Not because they aim to.. but because they are well designed.. i guess i'm just trying to say that it's not easy to bottom out an SVS sub. :eek:

[Schwingding]

I sure wish I could get some of you "experts" over here to witness this situation.

Claiming to know my listening habits is making a pretty big leap. Interpreting a few little words and then assuming you know everything about me is even bigger.

Lets examine the T-Rex battle scene in King Kong. I wish I had a spectrum analyzer to show the proof, but I do not. The sub only bottoms out once during this film - it is the moment when Naomi Watts is on the ground, after the vine tangle scene, about to be consumed by a T-Rex. When Kong slams to the ground - the sub hits bottom. If I calibrate the sub just under the point where that bottom occurs, there is no bass in that entire scene, from the moment they begin their battle. It is almost as if the sub is turned off. Certain that there is a lot of LFE in that battle scene, I added perhaps a 1/2 notch to the gain on the sub and replayed - sure enough, those creatures stomp out some lovely LFE all throughout that scene, but then it bottoms when Kong lands.

If this is boomy mid-bass addiction, perhaps you do know me.

[danger boy]

Schwing, i believe you.. so that leads me to believe there is something wrong with the SVS. Because as you explain.. when calibrated and the volume raised a little, to your liking. it bottoms out in that Kong scene.. but when you turn it down, you get nearly no bass. That to me, leads me to believe that driver is bad or the amp is bad or crossover or something.

I'm not trying to argue with you or it's not that we don't believe you.. it's just that most of us who own or have owned SVS subwoofers.. rarely bottom out. no matter how loud it's turned up.

good luck though.. i think once you get the other SVS in your house.. you'll quickly see the difference. try setting and using only the new sub before you hook up both subs.. just to see if there is a difference.

that's it. i'm out of here. good luck man.

[Ron Temple]

I'm kind of in danger's camp on this one. If it's not the driver or amp, you've got some major suck out's in play. The Plus 2 will take care of that and if you keep both, you're going to have bass you can taste.

[scottvamp]

I have had the PB12/2 Plus for over two years and have never even come close to bottoming it out. My last two homes were well over 2000sf with open floor plans. Meaning it was open to the entire space of the house. I have cracked and pushed dry wall screws out of the walls. Never going past half gain......:eek: :cool:

[Ricardo]

Reading all over again I agree there must be something wrong with the sub, or the AVR, or something. Doesn't make sense that it goes from no LFE to bottoming out with a slight adjutment.

[Kelley_Moore]

I'm kind of in danger's camp on this one. If it's not the driver or amp, you've got some major suck out's in play. The Plus 2 will take care of that and if you keep both, you're going to have bass you can taste.

I think he is going to have bass he can taste just from getting the PB12plus/2, but having the other one may not give him any additional benefit especially under the symptoms he is describing. I asked Tom about purchasing an Ultra/2 to replace my Plus/2 and how much of a difference would it be. Tom told me the following…

“The PB12Ultra/2 is slightly more powerful than the PB12plus/2…but performance gains wouldn’t be very cost effective in my opinion. For the most part, it would be 1.5dB…maybe 2dB tops. Adding a second PB12plus/2 would give you a 6dB gain. And I project the new PBUltra/2 (available in 2007) to be equal to dual PB12plus/2 subs too. “ WOW!!

“Something like a 20-39PC+ cylinder will add 2-3dB across the board (assuming you place it near the Plus/2). But again, unless you are approaching the output limits on the Plus/2 on a regular basis…adding 2-3dB of headroom probably isn’t going to make a huge difference to you.”

If you have to throttle back or “calibrate the sub just under the point where that bottom occurs, there is no bass in that entire scene” the new PB12plus/2 may drown anything the old sub is pushing out. Did the boys at SVS say if they thought something was wrong or did they attribute it to room size?

Either way, I think you are going to be extremely pleased with your new purchase. If it were me, and this only my opinion which means nothing, I would consider spending $200.00 in shipping to put the old sub on the 15 day DL and send it back and have them look at it.

Good luck and keep us updated,

kelley

[Schwingding]

Below is the note I sent to SVS after being THRILLED by the PB12/2 that arrived yesterday. I'm still laughing because I thought the PB12+ was big, this thing is a monster.
-------------------------------------------------------
Hi guys,

The PB12/2 arrived yesterday. Firstly, it is finished absoutely stunningly. Any expensive furniture maker would be proud of that finish.

HOLY CRAP DOES THAT THING PUT OUT SOME BASS.

I turned off the existing PB12+ while installing the new /2. As directed, I calibrated it inline with the SPLs from my other speakers, while starting with the gain on the sub between 1/3 and 1/2 way. I used the 20Hz tune for initial setup.

Started out by immediately playing the scenes that was stressing out the PB12+ and grinned from ear to ear - no problems at all. BUT THE BASS! The room is more full of sound, and I have a harder time hearing where the sound originates - a good thing.

So then I turned the other sub back on and recalibrated with both on - this required dropping the input signal by almost 8db on the receiver. Then I started playback again, SWEET! But that smaller sub still has the same trouble during those lowest of low scenes. This makes me think there might actually be something wrong with that sub.

I then moved to other material - music, etc... and had a superb time playing with my new toys. No troubles at all with the older sub until I play those few movie scenes previously identified, so I stuck to music and was in blissful low frequency heaven. I found a bunch of new room problems, now the drywall itself is making noise. Seeing as how there was so much effortless bass being produced, I figured I'd move the subs both to the 16Hz tune, and that was achieved with apparently zero loss of higher end in my room and at my sound levels.

I'm going to send that PB12+ back to have it checked out, but I'm wondering if you'll take it as an exchange on a 2nd PB12/2? (really)

Thanks again for your great support. This PB12/2 is frankly, unbelievable. The two together achieved some SPLs that I found a little disturbing when I was really working them out. I could swear that I heard them laugh at me when I wondered if they could go louder.

Mike

[Ricardo]

Congrats......isn't it great when everything works out better than expected???

On that second PB12/2.....you're really insane :)

[Ron Temple]

Congrats Mike,

I agree there's something wrong with the Plus. Send it back. You might check with G-force regarding 2 Plus/2s. He initially got 2 of them in a room about your size, but ended up selling one due to cancellation I believe. IIRC, one sounded better. I wish I had the space...maybe next year.