The people over in Audioholics are a bunch of quacks!

[cfrizz]

Check out this thread!

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27799

I tried to talk sense to them but they are more interested in splitting hairs!:rolleyes:

[dkg999]

You didn't already know that all the good people are on this forum :)

[VR3]

Those people arnt quacks..

Try going to HTSpot...

They redefine "Quacks" - hypersenstive pricks is more suitable...

[schwarcw]

Some people like to debate, just to debate. We see that behavior here sometimes too. All in all, Polk Forum has some really good people. I check out a lot of the other Forums too, but this one is where I have learned the most and got a lot of good advice from nice people, many of whom I call friends.

[dorokusai]

There are some cool folks in that forum, but they are typically active and sane members of other forums as well. There are crazier places in this hobby but if you don't branch out to at least vulture the other joints, you're not going to learn anything. I encourage anyone to participate but I personally don't have the brain power to handle too many forums so I fly around.

Just because its said here doesn't mean it's the truth.

I vulture all the time....learn to love it and you may find a nugget every now and then.

[DarqueKnight]

I found Dumbo's comments to be quite amusing.

Cathy, that's what you get for visiting other audio forums.:)

[MacLeod]

What a dumbass. Cathy was dead on right.

More power DOES make things louder BUT a 100 watt speaker wont be any louder with 400 watts than it would be with 100 watts. Eventually youll reach a point where the speaker just cant be pushed any further to move any more air. However the greater headroom on tap will improve sound quality by increasing dynamics.

And if that guy thinks more power wont be louder, tell him to come to a good SPL competition and hang out around the guys with 50,000 watt systems hitting 170 db and tell them more power doesnt mean louder.

More power is always a good thing for sound quality as long as youre not overdriving your speakers. One of the top guys in MECA SQ comps is running over 300 watts to each tweeter, 300 watts to each mid and 1000 to each sub. Its one of the best sounding systems Ive ever heard!

[MSALLA]

Looks like they need to spend some time at club polk. I thought I was an amature, damn.

[F1nut]

Of course, one can be so caught up in vulturing and flying around that one misses those nuggets.

Did someone mention splitting hairs? :D

[TroyD]

Splitting one of F1's hairs would require apparatus along the lines of a centrifuge they use to split an atom.

BDT

[F1nut]

You're just jealous.

[dorokusai]

Of course, one can be so caught up in vulturing and flying around that one misses those nuggets.

Am I the reference to that post? in regards to vulturing and flying?

[reeltrouble1]

Sans the vulture, I'd rather swoop like an eagle.

RT1

[cfrizz]

:D WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!

I just love you guys!!! And believe me, I have learned my lesson. No more straying from CP! :eek:

You guys are a bunch of nuts, but you're MY bunch of nuts!:D

Thanks! Have a terrific week before Christmas.:)

[ninerbj]

he he he..*snicker*
She said nuts

[cfrizz]

:D Yup, I've grown use to you guys garden variety nutness. The out & out psychos scares the bejesus outta me:eek: :eek: :eek:

I much prefer the nuts that I know to the psychos I don't!:D


he he he..*snicker*
She said nuts

[heiney9]

I almost never engage those "nuts" over there in any meaningful dialoge. Most have a very different view of audio/hi-fi than we do here. For most (not all) of them over there the term

"Those that don't know, don't know they don't know" should be the slogan.

Agreed with the rest here that there are some great folks over there, but most are stuck in the '70's and can't/won't let go of the hi-fi mentality of that era.

Different strokes for different folks.

[cfrizz]

ROFLMAO!!!:D H9 I was thinking that all of yesterday as I watched each post more ludicrous then the next pop up!:D

I could hear you guys saying it over & over again.:D



"Those that don't know, don't know they don't know" should be the slogan.

[schwarcw]

Sans the vulture, I'd rather swoop like an eagle.

RT1

You're running with Turkeys:D

[markmarc]

It was pretty amusing, but as always more power is not quality power.

[reeltrouble1]

You're running with Turkeys:D

Thats cool as long as their not Turkey Vultures!!!!:D :eek: ;)

RT1

[Ferres]

I always wondered when people start taking out their spl meters if 'clarity' is measurable compared to 'loudness'.:confused:

[VXR8]

Check out this thread!

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27799

I tried to talk sense to them but they are more interested in splitting hairs!:rolleyes:

Hi cfrizz,

Love your posts (and everybodies within CP) and cannot believe "Dumbo" wasn't getting it :confused: . I am no expert as they claim to be, but as you rightly stated more power will benefit. I am looking at getting a Rotel RMB1095 just so I have all 5 channels amped - giving power in reserve. Your comparison to cars etc. was also valid. If you're driving a 4 cylinder and driving up a hill, you're going to be pushing that vehicle a lot harder to get to the top as opposed if you were Cruising up that same hill in a V8.

Anyway, I won't stray to other forums - CP for me!!:D

[snow]

Check out this thread!

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27799

I tried to talk sense to them but they are more interested in splitting hairs!:rolleyes: LMAOOOOO:D


Sorry cathy i couldndt help myself after reading about 8 pages of that thread. mtrycrafts for example I wonder how many of those 6k + posts he had were giving out the wrong info to people?

I read the almost identical thread on the AVS forum the other day with of course different players involved. Some of the fellows there had 10k plus posts and were saying the same things. I really would like to know how can you spend enough time to have posted this much and know so little?

You were relating your real life experiences with these people, things that you tried and the results of such. That obviously didnt account for much there.

My own experiences are almost identical to yours btw, I had a SONY DA5-ES receiver that i was using, then hooked up an adcom GFA-555. 200wpc amp the difference was noticeable at once. I then tried a pair of large amps bridged mono to produce 1225 wpc. 6x the power of the adcom for each channel. There was some difference but very very little. I have came to the conclusion that after a point in which you have enough power to drive your speakers to any level that you can listen to, anything after this goes under the heading of disminishing returns.

So i guess there are 2 of us sharing the same delusional thinking and experience across many thousands of miles and months if not years of time.:p REGARDS SNOW

[josh_parsons626]

You know what....you guys give me a hard time most of the time but CLUB POLK FOR LIFE! ;) :D

[cfrizz]

Welcome to CP VXR8!!!:D And thank you for the kind words.

One of the owners of Audioholics is the Messiah of 'separate amplification doesn't make a difference' and as you can tell, he has many followers of that belief!:eek: When they do decide to try an amp, they go & buy a pro amp.:rolleyes:

You will love having the RMB1095 handling your speakers, Rotel is good stuff!:D

Again thank you for the kind words and have a Gday mate!:D :D :D



Hi cfrizz,

Love your posts (and everybodies within CP) and cannot believe "Dumbo" wasn't getting it :confused: . I am no expert as they claim to be, but as you rightly stated more power will benefit. I am looking at getting a Rotel RMB1095 just so I have all 5 channels amped - giving power in reserve. Your comparison to cars etc. was also valid. If you're driving a 4 cylinder and driving up a hill, you're going to be pushing that vehicle a lot harder to get to the top as opposed if you were Cruising up that same hill in a V8.

Anyway, I won't stray to other forums - CP for me!!:D

[cfrizz]

:D If the quacks over there could see all of us delusional people over here, they would have a mass stroke!!!:D

They obviously prefer the science of music rather than the joy & beauty that their ears hear.:confused::rolleyes: :eek:



LMAOOOOO:D


Sorry cathy i couldndt help myself after reading about 8 pages of that thread. mtrycrafts for example I wonder how many of those 6k + posts he had were giving out the wrong info to people?

I read the almost identical thread on the AVS forum the other day with of course different players involved. Some of the fellows there had 10k plus posts and were saying the same things. I really would like to know how can you spend enough time to have posted this much and know so little?

You were relating your real life experiences with these people, things that you tried and the results of such. That obviously didnt account for much there.

My own experiences are almost identical to yours btw, I had a SONY DA5-ES receiver that i was using, then hooked up an adcom GFA-555. 200wpc amp the difference was noticeable at once. I then tried a pair of large amps bridged mono to produce 1225 wpc. 6x the power of the adcom for each channel. There was some difference but very very little. I have came to the conclusion that after a point in which you have enough power to drive your speakers to any level that you can listen to, anything after this goes under the heading of disminishing returns.

So i guess there are 2 of us sharing the same delusional thinking and experience across many thousands of miles and months if not years of time.:p REGARDS SNOW

[VXR8]

Welcome to CP VXR8!!!:D And thank you for the kind words.

One of the owners of Audioholics is the Messiah of 'separate amplification doesn't make a difference' and as you can tell, he has many followers of that belief!:eek: When they do decide to try an amp, they go & buy a pro amp.:rolleyes:

You will love having the RMB1095 handling your speakers, Rotel is good stuff!:D

Again thank you for the kind words and have a Gday mate!:D :D :D

Thanks cfrizz:o

This stuff certainly becomes addictive. Although the RMB1095 is quite expensive ($3100 AUD), like many suggestions here, I am planning for the future so this will be one component I won't have to upgrade to in the future ;) , with 200 wpc x 5. Also, from other threads here I belive my RTi10s will come to life with a wee bit of extra juice pumped into them?

I'd certainly also like to upgrade to the LSi range too in the future, hence the Rotel will cater for that too:) . Can you advise why more people prefer the LSi15s as opposed to the LSI25s? My first instinct was to go for the LSi25s but the 15s appear more popular.

Thanks again for making me feel so welcome, from so far away :cool:

Ciao for now.

[nadams]

I wonder what the fine folks over at Audioholics would say to this...

I went from a 100wpc receiver, to a 75wpc 2ch amp, and experienced both more headroom, and greater dynamics. From less wattage. Wrap your head around that one!

[McLoki]

I wonder what the fine folks over at Audioholics would say to this...

I went from a 100wpc receiver, to a 75wpc 2ch amp, and experienced both more headroom, and greater dynamics. From less wattage. Wrap your head around that one!
List the specs for current and dampening factor, as well as the overall quality of the amp. (i.e. - I bet the amp manufacturer did not take into consideration that if their amp was to powerful, it would screw up the reception of the tuner built into the same chassis.)

I am really not surprized at all. It was built to be the best amp that it can be at its pricepoint. (as opposed to the pre-amp/amp/tuner at a certain pricepoint) With an AVR the manufacturer is faced with the choice of spending more on dampening materials in the AVR or spending less by building a cheaper amp section that does not have the power to interfere with the AVR's other funtions. Unless it is pretty high end, they almost always choose on the side of lower cost.

Michael

[nadams]

I'm not saying that I'm surprised by it... but I'd have a heck of a time trying to explain it to a bunch of "all amps created equal" folk.

[McLoki]

I'm not saying that I'm surprised by it... but I'd have a heck of a time trying to explain it to a bunch of "all amps created equal" folk.
touche'

[mulveling]

Actually guys...
There is a lot of misunderstading about power amps and how they correlate to volume levels...

Assuming the speakers remain constant, the real issue towards pushing out a higher volume (regardless to clipping issues) lies in two factors: the preamp gain and the power amp input sensitivity. Note that power amp's input sensitivity is largely unrelated to its power rating (much like with speakers). Power ratings don't raise volume levels by themselves; they just determine how loud you can go before clipping or severe distortion occurs. Within a reciever, these parameters are fixed and I would assume that most responsible manufacturers will tweak them such that it's hard, if not impossible, to clip the typical (8 ohm, high 80's db sensitivity) speakers even with the volume knob maxed out. That means - when you add a powerful external amp while using the receiver as a preamp, you will almost certainly be bottlenecked by that receiver preamp's low gain. Remember, that preamp section was designed not to overload the puny receiver power sections. It won't be able to put out the voltage required to tap into the 200+ Watts of a solid power amp.

It's perfectly possible that adding an external 200+ Watt poweramp to a receiver will actually lower the loudness - this happens when the external power amp's input sensitivity is lower than that of the receiver's power section - in this case you're not able to tap into the amp's potential for louder volumes, not even close. Of course you could get lucky and your external amp has higher sensitivity, in which case you will notice an increase in loudness (and likely quality). That's better - but you still may not be able to tap the amps' true capabilities yet.

You guys want serious volume, you need a power amp capable of huge Wattages and a preamp with some seriously high gain (capable of high voltages). High-end headphone amps that double as preamps are great for this 'cause their gain is typically much higher than audiophile 2ch preamps. The Melos SHA-Gold and Sugden Headmaster are shining examples of this - they will rock your socks off with the right power amp! Oh, btw - those 2 headamps can also take down many traditional 2ch preamps in the same price range (and above) in terms of pure audio quality. Just be careful, because with a high gain preamp it can be easy to drive many power amps into clipping - and you can't use the position of the volume knob as indication of when this might occur.

...ok now that that's done - I gotta throw this in and agree with the thread op cfrizz here - most of the guys on that forum sound like 'tards :D

[McLoki]

You guys want serious volume, you need a power amp capable of huge Wattages and a preamp with some seriously high gain (capable of high voltages).

Actually if you want serious volume, you need to look at highly efficient speakers, not trying to amplify an inefficient one.

The differences we were talking about were the sound differences with a set of speakers playing at 85db with amp "A" and 85db with amp "B". (same speaker and same volume, just a different amp)

In other words, our argument is there are audible benefits to running an external amp instead of an AVR at almost any volume. You don't get an external amp just to get louder volumes. (although that may be a benefit as well)

Michael

[mulveling]

Actually if you want serious volume, you need to look at highly efficient speakers, not trying to amplify an inefficient one.

The differences we were talking about were the sound differences with a set of speakers playing at 85db with amp "A" and 85db with amp "B". (same speaker and same volume, just a different amp)

In other words, our argument is there are audible benefits to running an external amp instead of an AVR at almost any volume. You don't get an external amp just to get louder volumes. (although that may be a benefit as well)

Michael
I'm not arguing that better amps don't sound better at the same volume levels - not at all. You're preaching to the choir there. I'm making an argument for the best solution to increasing the volume levels available for a given set of speakers, which is what that Audioholics thread was all about (or at least started that way).

In any case, in the context of that thread, we were talking about constant speakers in (I assume) an HT/movie environment. Movies have a much much lower average volume level than CDs. It can be HARD to get a nice volume going, with even high end receivers - not even melt your ears volumes, just a nice volume for movies. I know, because I started out 2 years ago with a Denon 3805 and Polk LSi. Adding external amps didn't change things, volume-wise, too much one way or the other (variations in input sensitivity weren't that big)...getting an external preamp is really what allowed me to tap into the external amps and get a nice volume going - then I was able to appreciate the increased quality of the overall system as well.

So basically my recommendation for the Audioholics thread op would be that a new power amp or a new receiver probably isn't enough - he needs a new power amp AND a new pre :D Though, if he could do just one thing - he should look for a quality power amp with a solid power rating AND a higher than average input sensitivity to make the best of his receiver's preamp section. I think Cathy mentioned her Sunfire amp was louder than her receiver alone - if so then it probably has a high input sensitivity, making it a likely good choice for the thread op.

[hearingimpared]

Cath reading that thread gave me the feeling of Abott & Costello;

Who's on first,
What's on second,
I don't know who's on third. . . .

[zombie boy 2000]

My amp has an ungodly high input sensitivity and my preamp is rated at 20db of gain...
9 o'clock on the dial tops and my speakers are 4 Ohm with an inefficiency of 87db.

My point being -- I agree with mulveling that a high gain preamp mated with a highly efficient amp is a recipe for ridiculous volume. I can only imagine if I had efficient speakers..

However, since I'm dealing with single 4 1/2" drivers, I can only go so loud. What a tightrope I walk:D

[cfrizz]

Thank you Mulveling, your science report just gave me a headache!:eek: ;) :D

My whole point on that thread was that the loudness factor was a minor benefit compared to having increased clarity & detail from my system.

Having that increase, allowed me to actually lower the volume & it was still clear as a bell!

I don't really care about the whys & wherefores of that being the case, I just care about hearing ALL the details of the music!:D

[madmax]

I think everyone is missing the real reason a louder volume cannot be perceived. It is because of the human ear and dynamic range. There is a specific wattage which allows the dynamic range to be fully reproduced. Beyond that you start making the lower volume sounds louder when increasing the louder volume sounds. The difference between the lower and higher volume sounds approaches becoming constant. Your ears will only notice the difference between the lowest and highest volume sound once you become accustomed to a given power output.

Tell them they need to get MIT cables or some BS to make it louder... :)

madmax

[BrickBryan]

Hi Everybody

[BrickBryan]

I need

[BrickBryan]

to post 10 times before I can PM

[nadams]

hopefully whoever you're PMing will ignore the message!

[hearingimpared]

hopefully whoever you're PMing will ignore the message!

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[jakelm]

hopefully whoever you're PMing will ignore the message!


Your ****ting me right?

[jakelm]

I think everyone is missing the real reason a louder volume cannot be perceived. It is because of the human ear and dynamic range. There is a specific wattage which allows the dynamic range to be fully reproduced. Beyond that you start making the lower volume sounds louder when increasing the louder volume sounds. The difference between the lower and higher volume sounds approaches becoming constant. Your ears will only notice the difference between the lowest and highest volume sound once you become accustomed to a given power output.



madmax

OK...That went way over my head. :eek: :confused:

[m00npie]

to post 10 times before I can PM

Any relation to JimBrick ?

[SKsolutions]

Actually guys...
There is a lot of misunderstading about power amps and how they correlate to volume levels...

Assuming the speakers remain constant, the real issue towards pushing out a higher volume (regardless to clipping issues) lies in two factors: the preamp gain and the power amp input sensitivity. Note that power amp's input sensitivity is largely unrelated to its power rating (much like with speakers). Power ratings don't raise volume levels by themselves; they just determine how loud you can go before clipping or severe distortion occurs. Within a reciever, these parameters are fixed and I would assume that most responsible manufacturers will tweak them such that it's hard, if not impossible, to clip the typical (8 ohm, high 80's db sensitivity) speakers even with the volume knob maxed out. That means - when you add a powerful external amp while using the receiver as a preamp, you will almost certainly be bottlenecked by that receiver preamp's low gain. Remember, that preamp section was designed not to overload the puny receiver power sections. It won't be able to put out the voltage required to tap into the 200+ Watts of a solid power amp.

It's perfectly possible that adding an external 200+ Watt poweramp to a receiver will actually lower the loudness - this happens when the external power amp's input sensitivity is lower than that of the receiver's power section - in this case you're not able to tap into the amp's potential for louder volumes, not even close. Of course you could get lucky and your external amp has higher sensitivity, in which case you will notice an increase in loudness (and likely quality). That's better - but you still may not be able to tap the amps' true capabilities yet.

You guys want serious volume, you need a power amp capable of huge Wattages and a preamp with some seriously high gain (capable of high voltages). High-end headphone amps that double as preamps are great for this 'cause their gain is typically much higher than audiophile 2ch preamps. The Melos SHA-Gold and Sugden Headmaster are shining examples of this - they will rock your socks off with the right power amp! Oh, btw - those 2 headamps can also take down many traditional 2ch preamps in the same price range (and above) in terms of pure audio quality. Just be careful, because with a high gain preamp it can be easy to drive many power amps into clipping - and you can't use the position of the volume knob as indication of when this might occur.

...ok now that that's done - I gotta throw this in and agree with the thread op cfrizz here - most of the guys on that forum sound like 'tards :D

You clearly have no idea of what you are talking about. Your statements, in most cases, would be more accurate if completely inverted.

[mulveling]

You clearly have no idea of what you are talking about. Your statements, in most cases, would be more accurate if completely inverted.
Oh? Care to elucidate on what I'm missing? Or do you just like to make annoying comments without backing them up?

[johnADA]

Quacks???? Sure you want to be that light in a description?

Pursuing the truth in Audio/Video!!

Only when it suits something is that true and I believe its within the pocket book for its suiting.
Many topics are ongoing that are against everything thats in their articles. I called Gene out on one in which he did the article and he reversed his stance, so I asked him if he was changing the article or bowing to pressures from and advertiser. Got one of them, aah, ooh, well, **** answers. It happens daily and I've pointed that out to them asking if the truth shouldnt outweigh the mighty advertising dollar. I'm not allowed to post anymore was my answer!!

[reeltrouble1]

Cat--just remember you can always tap your heels together three times, click your mouse and be home.

In the beginning there were no amps and all the land was acoustic.
Then there were amps and all was good.
All the amps lived together and believed they were each equal.
Then one day some of the amps said they were more equal than the others.

So then the advertisers came and said the more equal amps were better.
The advertisers also took money from the amp fathers'.
So the amp fathers' needed more money.
So they set out upon the print and the virtual to find some.

So it became that the more money an amp could proclaim it had the more equal it was to others.

Then the advertisers said the other amps would be known as the unequals.

One day the Gon arrived but that is a story for another time.

RT1

[MSALLA]

Cat--just remember you can always tap your heels together three times, click your mouse and be home.

In the beginning there were no amps and all the land was acoustic.
Then there were amps and all was good.
All the amps lived together and believed they were each equal.
Then one day some of the amps said they were more equal than the others.

So then the advertisers came and said the more equal amps were better.
The advertisers also took money from the amp fathers'.
So the amp fathers' needed more money.
So they set out upon the print and the virtual to find some.

So it became that the more money an amp could proclaim it had the more equal it was to others.

Then the advertisers said the other amps would be known as the unequals.

One day the Gon arrived but that is a story for another time.

RT1

I think I saw this story on masterpiece theater one night. :D

[cfrizz]

:D WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! Ted you are great! And I look forward to the continuation of your story!:D ;) :D



Cat--just remember you can always tap your heels together three times, click your mouse and be home.

In the beginning there were no amps and all the land was acoustic.
Then there were amps and all was good.
All the amps lived together and believed they were each equal.
Then one day some of the amps said they were more equal than the others.

So then the advertisers came and said the more equal amps were better.
The advertisers also took money from the amp fathers'.
So the amp fathers' needed more money.
So they set out upon the print and the virtual to find some.

So it became that the more money an amp could proclaim it had the more equal it was to others.

Then the advertisers said the other amps would be known as the unequals.

One day the Gon arrived but that is a story for another time.

RT1

[jakelm]

Cat--just remember you can always tap your heels together three times, click your mouse and be home.

In the beginning there were no amps and all the land was acoustic.
Then there were amps and all was good.
All the amps lived together and believed they were each equal.
Then one day some of the amps said they were more equal than the others.

So then the advertisers came and said the more equal amps were better.
The advertisers also took money from the amp fathers'.
So the amp fathers' needed more money.
So they set out upon the print and the virtual to find some.

So it became that the more money an amp could proclaim it had the more equal it was to others.

Then the advertisers said the other amps would be known as the unequals.

One day the Gon arrived but that is a story for another time.

RT1

Is that the story of BOSE???...LOL

[Bill Ayotte]

these are some special people. I don't have a sliver of the knowledge base as the majority of the people here, and I know that some of those guys are borderline retarded. I liked the suggestion to buy a 600w/ch. Crown pro amp to hook up to the low end a pair of B&W 604s. We all know here that will bring out the best in those speakers. :confused: :confused: :D

[TN_Polk_Lover]

Cat--just remember you can always tap your heels together three times, click your mouse and be home.

In the beginning there were no amps and all the land was acoustic.
Then there were amps and all was good.
All the amps lived together and believed they were each equal.
Then one day some of the amps said they were more equal than the others.

So then the advertisers came and said the more equal amps were better.
The advertisers also took money from the amp fathers'.
So the amp fathers' needed more money.
So they set out upon the print and the virtual to find some.

So it became that the more money an amp could proclaim it had the more equal it was to others.

Then the advertisers said the other amps would be known as the unequals.

One day the Gon arrived but that is a story for another time.

RT1

Thanks! This is really good! You made my night.

[dorokusai]

I have the strange feeling that the next time I see Ted in person, he will be in a XXL martial arts gi and talking like Yoda.

I'm a little freaked out.

[reeltrouble1]

I am leaving Yoda for Dan...............

although FDR once said "up with this I will not put" demonstrating a grammatically correct dangling participle for his Secretary, sort of Yoda like, and since something dangles well.............you guys know.

Hint---Animal Farm

RT1

[BrickBryan]

Any relation to JimBrick ?


No relation. Sorry Is Jim Brick a friend of yours?

[bknauss]

You clearly have no idea of what you are talking about. Your statements, in most cases, would be more accurate if completely inverted.

*scratches head* The statements looked pretty damned correct to me, even if they might not be real world examples. Sensitivity and gain in an amplified system can mean just about everything in terms of perceived loudness. Take our subs vs. Velodyne's... we adjust our gains and sensitivities so you will have little distortion when the volume is maxed. Velo hits that point at around 12 o'clock on the volume knob. Both subs might have the same power rating, but one is going to distort like a mofo for the sake of getting more perceived loudness.

My 2 cents.

[bknauss]

And yes, Audioholics makes their own rules to satisfy themselves. Look at the all channels driven document and also their measurement methods. They follow no standard and no upcoming standards. And its also nice how the are always doing reviews for Yamaha with glowing reviews... could it be that there is an ex-Yammie employee on the staff?!?!?!

[Music Joe]

;) Reads like the 4 minute point here ....
http://www.pistolwimp.com/media/2536/

We've seen it before yet it doesn't grow old.