SQ help

[dolfan87]

It's been quite some time since I posted in here. I have a 1970 Mach 1 Mustang that I have been restomodding for 6 years. It's just about complete, and I am gearing up to do the install on my system.

I am using the I.D. 12" D4 for a sub, and I.D. 5.25 2 ohm Chameleons with the I.D. tweets.

Amps are Polks, 500.1 for the sub, 400.4 for the components.

I have a set of passive x-overs from my old MB Quart components, and if I am not happy with the internal x-over on the 400.4, then I will use the Quarts.

I have quite a bit of experience in general car audio, but this is my first attempt at real staging, and imaging. I promise to be a sponge, and follow directions, as I really want this car to be top notch in every way.

Having said that, I will most likely never compete.

Now for my questions.

I have room in the doors for the components, and it would be the easiest for me as far as building the pods. However, if kick panel is truly the best way to go, I can make it work.

With the Chameleons, is it best for me to simply mount that tweeter on the mid, or am I going to get better results mounting it seperately?

Also, when aiming the speakers, can i just use the deck for power, or is it better for me to go hook up an amp?

I really appreciate any help with this.

Happy New Year!

Gram

[MacLeod]

The key to getting a great stage is to get the pathlength difference between the L and R speakers as close to equal as possible.

Door locations are out. Not only are they not far enough forward to make the pathlength difference more equal, but one is a lot more on axis than the other which can cause some weird issues. It can work but only for one seat AND with a heft processor that is capable of tuning all channels independantly.

Kick panels are the best bet if youre not wanting to hack up your dash. Youll want them mounted as far forward as possible.

As for the aiming, using the HU is fine cause all youre trying to do is see how they sound at different angles. What you want to look for is for the center image to be as close to the middle of the dash as possible. The actual definition is for it to be equal distance from the left and right boundaries of the stage but 9 times out of 10. this is directly in the middle of the dash or maybe just a smidge to the right of center. Pay attention to focus. The center image should be heard only from the center point and not have any bleed over from the right side. If the image seems to be all over the place, try swapping the polarity of one of the mids and see if that focuses it up.

For the tweeter, for best tonal accuracy, its best to mount them with the mids. However, if you do that and your mids are in the floor, your stage will be in the middle of the dash at best. The best place to mount the tweets IMO is in the A pillars. I have mine mounted about 1 inch higher than the highest point on the dash. My stage isnt super high but its above the dash. Ideal is to be eye level which is usually halfway up the dash. You can get this too if you stick the tweets high enough so its best to experiment with placement on these as well.

To achieve the best SQ possible youre going to have to get a processor. The Alpine H701 or the Rockford Fosgate 360.2 are really the only 2 options available. A generic EQ wont work. You need crossover, time alignment and EQ settings for EACH channel INDEPENDANTLY because things just aint equal in a car.

[dolfan87]

Mac, thank you. I believe you have helped me here in the past, as I remember the name.

It's gonne be tough putting the tweets in the pillars. There is very little room on my Mach for that. I DO have the orginal dash speaker location is that is in anyway possible. High up on the door is possible as well.

You don't have any experience with the ID components do you?

edit The stock speaker location is in the center of the dash

[MacLeod]

No. Ive been using Polk for about 5 years now and MB Quart before that. Im a one brand type a guy! ;)

The first thing you should worry about is the mids. They are the most important speaker in your setup. The tweeters are only good for imaging cues but the actual staging and imaging presence comes from the mids.

Get them placed and angled where they sound and image the best. Then try all kinds of locations with the tweeters until you get some decent height out of them. The doors might work. Hell you may even be able to make em work in the kick panels. It can be done but its generally a lot easier to do it in the A's or dash.

[dolfan87]

Oh I am willing to cut the dash...the thing is just beginning to crack, and I know I will need to replace it soon anyway.

Ok, I'll worry about the mids first. In fact I will use this thread to post pics of the install as it goes.

[1996blackmax]

What HU are you using? If you mount the tweeters on the A-pillars or maybe high on the doors you may find that things between the mid and the tweeter are not coming together very nicely. If you do encounter that, you may want to invert the phase on the tweeters to give you a little fuller sound.

There are pros and cons to different tweeter locations, but one of the things that can happen when you put the tweeters in the kicks is that you also can get a rainbow effect with your soundstage. Experimentation is key here though, even little changes in the direction of your drivers can have an impact. If you have a HU with an EQ and time aligment features it will help out quite a bit.

[dolfan87]

What HU are you using? If you mount the tweeters on the A-pillars or maybe high on the doors you may find that things between the mid and the tweeter are not coming together very nicely. If you do encounter that, you may want to invert the phase on the tweeters to give you a little fuller sound.

There are pros and cons to different tweeter locations, but one of the things that can happen when you put the tweeters in the kicks is that you also can get a rainbow effect with your soundstage. Experimentation is key here though, even little changes in the direction of your drivers can have an impact. If you have a HU with an EQ and time aligment features it will help out quite a bit.

I am running an Alpine 9820XM for now...but I was seriously looking at the Eclipse CD5000. I see you are using the 7000, how do you like it?

[1996blackmax]

I think it is a very nice HU. It is still not the easiest thing to use, due to the controls inside the volume knob, but after a little while you get used to it. The DAC's are from Burr Brown, and are 24bit. Alot of companies say they have 24bit DAC's, but are actually using 1bit DAC that "upconvert" the information to 24bits. To some this does not matter, but it is still nice to know what you are getting. I think for tweaking your sound, it is a hard unit to beat. I currently have it in the standard 4speaker + subwoofer mode. This gives me pretty extensive tuning options, which include- individual time alignment for each speaker (which also includes controling the output on each individual speaker), a 7-band PEQ, and adjustable x-over points (for front, rear, and sub). This HU also does something that is pretty cool. While not as accurate as an RTA, the function that allows you to take a snapshot of your system is very helpful. You will need to buy a microphone that goes with this unit to use this function, about $20 bucks. Basically the HU sends out pink noise through your system and takes a snapshot of your system's frequency response with the mic (plugged in into the left channel of the auxillary input). This will help you narrow down any problem areas that you may have, so that you can then tackle them with the PEQ.

I think the HU really shines if you put it in the 3-way mode. This will change the RCA outputs from front, rear, & sub to tweeter, midrange, and low. You will gain some PEQ bands in the process. You get 5 bands for the tweeters, 5 bands for the mids, and one band for the sub. You will also be able to have the time alignment feature, and run an active setup with your components if you wanted, with adjustable frequencies and slopes.


I am probably leaving out some details, but that should give you an idea of what it can do.

As for the CD5000, while I think the CD5000 is a nice unit, I do not think it is a good bargain. The sound tuning options on it are very limited, nothing like the CD7000. For the same amount of money you could get something with better tuning capabilities. The Pioneer 880PRS comes to mind here.

[dolfan87]

Ok, well that settles that. I have the Eclipse 21010 EQ wired up, and I can take the Alpine, and the EQ, and sell them both on E bay, and step up to a much better HU.

I like the features the 7000 present, and your write up was very informative.

Sounds like I need to go pull the deck and eq. :D

[1996blackmax]

Take a look at Pioneer's stuff as well. I think the Pioneer HU I mentioned is a very nice unit.

Also, you may want to wait on pulling the stuff out :D..... we should be seeing what's available from different companies very soon, and you may find something you like in the new gear. You could also look at this time as being the time to get a good deal as retailers will be looking to unload last year's stuff to make room for the new gear.

[dolfan87]

Well I have always been a fan of Pioneer, Alpine, and Eclipse...BUT I am a bit old school, and haven't kept up with the industry very well.

My last serious system was running the OLD (new at the time) PPI art series (the finned amps, not the smooth ones) 2150 tp four kicker 8's, a 2075 to pioneer mids and a 2030 to my pioneer tweets. I was using the Pioneer deck (don't recall the model number) that dropped the face down to reveal the tape deck behind it...lol.

ANYWAY, I will do some more research, but I do love the time alignment feature that the eclipse provides, along with the eq features. It sounds like it will flow with my system considering I am bi-amping the components.

You guys are great...mucho appreciated.

[DSkip]

I have the Pioneer Premier 860 model and with everything that can be done with the HU, its a very easy one to navigate through. I still have problems with alternator noise but its at a point now where its almost inaudible. I prefer the dual knob controls and look, so I decided to pay a little more for an older model rather than get the newer model pioneers.

When I got that HU, it was between that and the Eclipse 7000 model I believe. I opted for the pioneer because of previous experience with their HU's and easier use.

[1996blackmax]

I actually had the non-Premier version of the DEH-P860, the DEH-P8600 (I tried it a couple of times). Same unit minus 2 volts in the preouts. While that unit was a nice HU, I find the Eclipse unit actually easier to use. I did not understand why in those models Pioneer made it a pain to just adjust the subwoofer volume. Having to go into the menu section just to adjust the sub does not make sense. To this day I think the easiest HU's to use Alpine

[DSkip]

I actually had the non-Premier version of the DEH-P860, the DEH-P8600 (I tried it a couple of times). Same unit minus 2 volts in the preouts. While that unit was a nice HU, I find the Eclipse unit actually easier to use. I did not understand why in those models Pioneer made it a pain to just adjust the subwoofer volume. Having to go into the menu section just to adjust the sub does not make sense. To this day I think the easiest HU's to use Alpine

I havent found the sub control to be a hassle. I have to agree with the Alpines being easy to use, I never have been too fond of their design though.

[MacLeod]

If you have the money, you may want to check into getting a processor. The best is the Alpine H701 and it can usually be had at a local shop for $700. Get it and the Alpine 9857 with optical output for $350 and youll have more control than you ever thought possible!

[1996blackmax]

I have long used Alpine HU's with Alpine processors. The last two that I had used fiberoptic connections between the HU, cd changer, and processor. I will see what Alpine has to offer a little ways down the road. I recently tought about getting a CDA-7998R (European version) with the fiberoptic output and pairing it up with an Alpine PXA-H600. That would be one sweet setup. That thing had 20bit Sine Magnitude Burr Brown DAC's, which I am pretty sure had something to do with the sweet sound that the unit produced.

Here is a little info on it, some of the pages do not work anymore, but enough to give you some ideas....

http://web.archive.org/web/19990507054432/www.alpine.com.au/catalogs/proc6.html


http://web.archive.org/web/19990424075822/www.alpine.com.au/promo/tpsound.html




The Pioneer DEQ-P9 is also a very, very nice processor.

It is nice though to have all the processing power that HUs like the CD7000 have to offer now in one package. I think they provide more than enough flexibility for most systems out there.

[MacLeod]

It is nice though to have all the processing power that HUs like the CD7000 have to offer now in one package. I think they provide more than enough flexibility for most systems out there.

I used to think so too dude, but once I got the 700 and started playing with it, I cant believe how little control I had before. I mean, 31 bands or equalization, time correction in .05 ms increments, crossover, level and phase controls for ALL channels independant of each other is just awesome! Its the difference between driving to work and riding a bicycle.

[dolfan87]

The processor might be a touch out of range for me right now. As it is I went out and yanked my EQ and HU, and tossed them on e bay. I think with either the Pioneer, or the Eclipse HU, I will be able to get things in order with less in the car.

I like stealthy installs, and the EQ was sort of an issue anyway.

Here is a shot of the car. This was taken a few weeks ago, and I have finished a lot more since this (interior, and the marker lights are now installed) but when I get her all detailed up I will get some better shots.

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=100950204&imageID=1651020239

[1996blackmax]

Forgot to mention that with my unit in custom mode I actually have alot more control of the x-over (can pick virtually any frequencies), PEQ (same as x-over), and TA ;). I also have .05ms increments. For my system 7 PEQ bands is enough. I can move them to where my problem areas are. If I need more I can just switch over to the other mode and get 11 bands.

[DSkip]

Perfect wheels for the car. All these muscle cars startin to show up on this site are getting me antsy to start working on my camaro again :D

[1996blackmax]

Sweet ride there...

[dolfan87]

Thanks DSkip...it's been a long road with that car, but I think it's turning out awesome. 500 horse 393ci Windsor, 4 wheel disc, power rack and pinion, Tremec TKO 5 speed, blah blah blah...lol.

I am excited about the install, but I want the kick pods to turn out clean and looking almost factory. I think I am going to have some serious learning ahead of me.

edit Thanks BlackMax as well. ;)

[dolfan87]

I used to think so too dude, but once I got the 700 and started playing with it, I cant believe how little control I had before. I mean, 31 bands or equalization, time correction in .05 ms increments, crossover, level and phase controls for ALL channels independant of each other is just awesome! Its the difference between driving to work and riding a bicycle.

I found the processor for 395.00 on e bay, and the HU for 285.00. I might be able to swing that.

Now, my question is, do I set up a center channel, rear speakers in order to utilize the surround? Which requires more amps?

Or do I just use it for the time correction, phase, eq, ect.?

You guys are great...thanks for all the help.

[MacLeod]

I HIGHLY recommend against Ebay. Run down to your local shop that carries Alpine with $650 in cash in your hands and I guarantee you that youll walk out with a 701.

I would skip the center channel. I know its all the rage but 5.1 in a car is stupid.

Keep the 2 channel thing going. That pure SQ. You can still use rear speakers if you want your passengers to have tunes but if not, stick to front stage only.

[exalted512]

ebay isnt bad as long as youre buying new from a reputable seller. 1 year warranties are also nice as well and a lot of ebay companies now offer that.
-Cody

[MacLeod]

Yeah, but why buy a processor for $600 then pay $75 in shipping and take a chance that the one you get is actually a brand new one and that if it does have a problem you may be able to get a replacement within 3 or 4 months, when you can go buy one over the counter from an authorized dealer and have full backing and blessing of the manufacturer?

Ive been looking around on Ebay a lot lately for gear and honestly, I cant find anything thats really any cheaper than if I just went and haggled with a dealer or picked up a great sale at Crutchfield.

For instance, Im drooling over the Alpine 9860 that on clearance from Crutchfield or $300!! Brand spanking new, no shipping, factory warranty! Look one up on Ebay - $315 w/$20 shipping.

Im not denying you can find good prices on some stuff, but I would rather do some snooping around and haggling with my local shop and pay almost the same than to take my chances on Ebay.

[dolfan87]

I finally decided on the CD7000, and I got it for 480.00 shipped with a one year warranty. Decided on this unit based on the features vs space limitations, and overall pricing.

The processor would of been sweet for the extra EQ bands, but I had to make a compromise simply because funds are getting a tad tight.

Hopefully I will be happy with the 7000.

[dolfan87]

Ok finally I have figured out what I am going to run. DVA-9860 with the H701 processor. Everything is here, and the install began over the weekend. I started in the trunk.

Dynomatted everything, and tried out the original Dynomat on the trunk floor. Hated the stuff, and used the Extreme everywhere else.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/dolfan87/DSC00719.jpg

Next I cut the floor piece out of 1/2" MDF.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/dolfan87/DSC00721.jpg

Covered it in black leather...

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/dolfan87/DSC00723.jpg

Began the amp rack. Started with the amp board itself, again 1/2" mdf.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/dolfan87/DSC00724.jpg

Next I started the amp rack cover, and had to do it twice because I mis calculated the hinge reliefs. Even after I cut the second piece, I still made the reliefs to deep, so I had to fill them in a bit. It's ok, cause it is covered too.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/dolfan87/DSC00725.jpg
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/dolfan87/DSC00726.jpg
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/dolfan87/DSC00731.jpg

Wrapped in leather. the amp rack will be along the front wall of the trunk 9closest to the back seat) facing the trunk opening.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/dolfan87/DSC00733.jpg

I will install the rack today, and move on to the sides. The H701 will probably go on the passenger side of the trunk in a similar mounting board as the amps.

I may glass it in as well, haven't decided.

I need opinions on if you guys think some soft blue LED's mounted on the amp board would be cool. It would only illuminate the gap around the amps. I can't figure out if it would look a little over the top on a clean and classy install.

Thoughts?

Gram

[MacLeod]

Dude, that is excellent work. Very clean, classy and stealthy. Just the kind of installs I like best and wish I could do!!

Keep up the good work and keep the pictures coming!

[dolfan87]

Dude, that is excellent work. Very clean, classy and stealthy. Just the kind of installs I like best and wish I could do!!

Keep up the good work and keep the pictures coming!

Thanks Mac! It's been your help that has got me into that Alpine DVA and processor. for just over 700.00! ;)

I didn't get much done today because something took longer than I thought it would. Mounting the amp rack and cover INTO the car I ran into a couple snags. I pressed on though, and got it installed and wired up just before dark.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/dolfan87/DSC00742.jpg

Subwoofer goes in this corner. I have the Image Dynamics IDQ D4 12". I bought a Polk/Momo 12" grill so the amps would match the grill, but it looks stupid with a I.D. sub in there. I am seriously considering selling the IDQ for a Momo DVC 12". I just don't want to give up the sound quality the IDQ provides. :( Oh what to do.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/dolfan87/DSC00743.jpg

Still looking for suggestions on the LED's around the inside of the amp rack to provide light through the gap around the amps.

Gram

[1996blackmax]

Very nice work!

I hear you about the Dynamat Original...it just sucks. I think the reason is that it's asphalt based.

[exalted512]

Shouldve went with second skin :D

Looks good. I say hook up the LEDs. If you dont like the way they look, you can always just unplug them. We cant tell you if they look good or not, thats up to you.

Great work so far, very clean.

Why not sell the IDQ for a SR 10?
-Cody

[1996blackmax]

Those I.D. subs do sound very nice....

[dolfan87]

Yes they do. I guess I will just make it work with the IDQ. Maybe I will pick up a MOMO DVC at some point and just swap it out to see the difference.

More pics tomorrow. I am going to fiberglass the back half of the sub enclosure, with a flat MDF baffle in front. I'll countersink the sub and grill.

[1996blackmax]

I really liked my Arc Audio 12D2, similar to the IDQ and built by Image Dynamics. Only reason I switched was that I wanted more output and power handling.

[dolfan87]

Ok here is today's progress...and guess what?! Fiberglass!!! Well almost.

First I had to figure the angle of the baffle in the corner of the trunk.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/dolfan87/resize9.jpg

Next I cut the side pieces, and decided to round the top of the box for a very non linear shape. Should provide much better sound quality.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/dolfan87/resize8.jpg
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/dolfan87/resize7.jpg

Screwed and glued...

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/dolfan87/resize6.jpg

Next I went to Wal-Mart and picked up the 100% polyester felt so I can be cool like Frodo. ;)

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/dolfan87/resize5.jpg

I stretched and stapled the felt prior to adding the bracing I wanted along the back and top. Screwed up my nice stretch job, but the back will never be seen, so I am forging on.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/dolfan87/resize4.jpg
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/dolfan87/resize3.jpg

Test fit. I am going to run a 1/2" leather covered MDF cover that will completely conceal the box. It will run from the tail panel to the amp rack, and give the sub and grill a recessed look.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/dolfan87/Resize2.jpg

My first resin!! I layed it on fairly well, and the felt was soaked but not dripping on the inside of the box.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/dolfan87/Resize1.jpg

Tomorrow I will glass it, build the cover, wrap it in leather, and install the box.

Gram

[MacLeod]

Looks great dude! Youre definitely handy with a jig saw!!

One thing, that box looks awful small. What sub are you using again? Is that a 10"? If so, that box should be at the very least .50 ft3 and preferably .6

If its a 12, that definitely looks too small. I cant tell everything from pictures so correct me if Im wrong but just wanted to make sure you check on that.

[dolfan87]

It's 14" deep, 11.75 wide, and between 7 to 11.5 high. Should give me .85 c.f., and the IDQ wants .88.

Should be ok yeah? I can always add a bit of batting.

Oh and I used a router for the baffle hole...with a jig, so I am not THAT handy. :D

Gram

[exalted512]

those subs work extremely well in very small boxes. You can put a 12 in half a cube...he looks like he has about .6 there so hes in the range of the box that sub needs.

What amp are you running to it and at what ohm load?
-Cody

[exalted512]

i stand corrected...

[dolfan87]

Running the 500.1 at 2 ohms.

[MacLeod]

It's 14" deep, 11.75 wide, and between 7 to 11.5 high.

Those are the INTERIOR measurements, right?

Youre obviously not a newb at this so I dont mean offense, but if thats exterior measurements and youre using 3/4" wood then that would only be .57 ft3.

[exalted512]

With that power, I would keep the box no more than .8 and no polyfill
-Cody

[exalted512]

Those are the INTERIOR measurements, right?

Youre obviously not a newb at this so I dont mean offense, but if thats exterior measurements and youre using 3/4" wood then that would only be .57 ft3.
time to bust out the peanuts:D
-Cody

[dolfan87]

Well Mac, you had me second guessing myself, so I went out and re-measured. You're right, I completely brain farted.

Actual INNER dimensions are (taking the deep average between bottom and top) 8.5 deep x 11.17 high x 12.17 wide.

Crap. CRAP! I haven't built a box in years, and I can't fit any more box in that corner, and actually be able to install it once it's built. I BARELY can slide it past the trunk hinge at the current width, and it can be no more deep or high.

The sub itself is going to eat .07 ft3.

Awe man what a bummer.

[exalted512]

that leaves you with about .35 after displacement.

If you could get another tenth of a cube and some polyfill, it would still be very doable. Like I said, those subs will work in a box down to .5, so if you can get 0.45 and stuff it, after displacement, the sub will 'see' about .5. And paired with a 500.1, I would say itd be about perfect.
-Cody

[dolfan87]

my calcs landed the box at .67, minus the sub leaves me .6 flat.

8.5 x 11.17 x 12.17 =1155 right? divided by 1728 = .668??

Did I screw something else up now?

[MacLeod]

The one thing you need to do is since the top of the box angles down toward the back you have to figure the height different.

Say if the highest point is 12" and the lowest is 10", you add the 2 together and then divide them by 2. 12 + 10 = 22 / 2 = 11. So 11 would be the value you would use for the height.

Actually you would do this for any side that tapers in or out at an angle. I just looked at the pics again and not only does the top taper down at an angle but so does the back so youll have to do that forumal for the back and the top.

[dolfan87]

ok, re-calc'ing it now.

[exalted512]

my calcs landed the box at .67, minus the sub leaves me .6 flat.

8.5 x 11.17 x 12.17 =1155 right? divided by 1728 = .668??

Did I screw something else up now?
100% correct, i was taking account thickness of the wood still....I thought that box looked about .6

Eitherway, .6 after displacement is not bad for that sub, especially with the amount of power you have at hand
-Cody

[exalted512]

im still a fan of peanuts...
-Cody

[dolfan87]

Ok guys, I busted out my wifes flexible tape measure. Grabbed the box, and the inner dimensions are...

Top (depth wise) is 7". Bottom depth is 10.75. The average is 8.875.

Width It's a flat 12" across.

Height Short side is 10.25, high side is 12.5 for an average of 11.375.

Multiplied them all together= 1211.43

Divide that by 1728 and I get .701

Subtract the .07 for the sub= .631

Still kinda small. I am a bit upset right now because I don't know where to gain any more space.

[dolfan87]

Rebuilding the box today...bleh. :(

[MacLeod]

Thats not that small of a box for a 10. Slap some polyfill in there and you should be ok.

I was only able to squeeze out .53 for my box but I used a lot of polyfill and some Dynaxorbs and it works pretty well.

[dolfan87]

I talked with Image Dynamics today, and I am glad I did. They said that for my particular set up, this smaller box is almost perfect.

Reason is that the IDQ 12" with a .615 (lol...more on how I KNOW the box is exactly .615 later) is a great match is because I am using the 5.25 components (as opposed to the 6.5's for lower midbass) for the front stage. My smaller box raises the ideal tuning freq. on the sub from 15-35 at .88 c.f. to 19-50 hz. My mids (according to them are good to about 80-90) and with roll off it will cross nicely.

So I am going to run it, and see how it goes. Worst case I will have to rebuild the box, but it's looking like I am in good shape for now.

So onto how I know my box is .615. I was fiberglassing the back today, when I decided to resin and glass the corners inside the box. Then I just resined the whole inside. When that dried, I grabbed a gallon jug, filled it with water...my box, level, holds EXACTLY 5 gallons and two cups.

I have some pictures of the glassing coming in after I eat.

[exalted512]

I talked with Image Dynamics today, and I am glad I did. They said that for my particular set up, this smaller box is almost perfect.

did i not say that?
-Cody

[1996blackmax]

You can also play around with some fiberfill to get a little more low end if you want.

[dolfan87]

did i not say that?
-Cody

Cody, brother, you did say that...but it was the explanation that really set my mind at ease. You were right though. :p

Here is the updates:

Ok, here is the first two layers of chop mat.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/dolfan87/DSC00759.jpg

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/dolfan87/DSC00760.jpg

I started cutting my pieces, and numbering them to make things quicker. I saw someone else on here do this, and it really helped me.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/dolfan87/DSC00761.jpg
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/dolfan87/DSC00762.jpg

This was like my fourth layer. After this I ran out of chop mat...and so did ACE hardware. They only had the cloth left in stock, so my final four layers was with the cloth. I didn't take any pictures of the cloth, but it looks about what you would expect. So a total of 8 layers of 3/4 ounce mat and cloth. I also layed some glass inside in all the corners.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/dolfan87/DSC00763.jpg

Installed the box in the trunk, and then began the cover piece. The sub will sit recessed in the cover, and I have yet to decide if I am going to run the grill. Here is the cover...umm..."covered" in leather (sorry the picture is a tad blurry, but it was way dark by the time I took this shot.)

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/dolfan87/DSC00770.jpg

Ok, that's it for now. Tomorrow will see the sub in, and then I'll begin the passenger side of the trunk with the Alpine H701 processor.

Phew...so how did I do on my first glass?

[exalted512]

looks fantastic!!!! I wish I could work that fast!!!!! Or at least have the time and a garage to do all that.
-Cody

[dolfan87]

LOL...car is in the garage, but I work outside because of the dust and resin smell.

[dolfan87]

Here is the cover...I forgot to add it to the above thread.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/dolfan87/DSC00766.jpg

[ben62670]

1 Gallon = .12 cubic Ft. ? I was going to ask earlier if anyone has used water to figure out Sq Ft

Nice work

[dolfan87]

1 gallon= .133 c.f.

Yeah, if I hadn't of resined the interior of the enclosure, I wouldn't of tried it.

But now I know for certain what I have...even if Cody and Mac guessed just by looking at the pictures. lol

[ben62670]

Yes MDF does Not like water!
Do you have any pics of the rest of your car. I am a Ford fan from way back. I have a 68 Bronce with 360 horse bracket racing 302 single plenum manifold, double pumper carb, roller rockers, ported heads, detroit locker, posi front, 4 wheel disk, bla bla bla. I would love to find a cougar with a 351c 4v, and hide away headlights seq tailights.

[dolfan87]

These are a bit older shots, but I have been so busy with the audio install, that I haven't really got the car out of the garage since I took these. The car itself is 99% finished.

It's a stroked 351W, AFR aluminum heads, solid roller cam, (as you said) blah blah blah.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/dolfan87/Engine3.jpg

We built the suspension front and rear. Ignore the lower torque bar. It was replaced with a z link and panhard rod.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/dolfan87/RearSide11-2002.jpg

I built the guage pod out of fiberglass. That was my very first ever experience with glass, and I pretty much hated it. :D

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/dolfan87/Dash3.jpg

The outside...

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/dolfan87/Stangside.jpg

Here is what it looked like 6 years ago when I rescued it from my friends backyard.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/dolfan87/mymach-old.jpg

That's all I got loaded up in Photobucket for now.

[ben62670]

I was thinking about building a poked and stroked 351w (426) myself with world cast iron heads. I wanted big torque instead of the high rpm screamer. I'd like to see the new suspension one day. I'm contemplating ditching the rear leafs, and doing a coil/air piston setup all around. I have put a lot of thought into the design (valving/reservoir capacity). It would be real nice to adjust the ride height and spring rate on the fly from highway low to crossing a swamp high.

Man do I love that car of yours... looks real sharp.

[dolfan87]

I need your guys' opinion. I mounted the sub, and just loved the clean no grill look.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/dolfan87/DSC00772.jpg

But then my wife and my brother both think that the grill on looks better and flows with the amps.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/dolfan87/DSC00774.jpg

Which do you guys like better?

[exalted512]

I personally dont like a polk audio grill on a sub thats not polk audio...especially when it says it...

this is my all time favorite grill for any sub
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=260-443
-Cody

[Josh]

Offffffff

[1996blackmax]

I personally dont like a polk audio grill on a sub thats not polk audio...especially when it says it...

this is my all time favorite grill for any sub
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=260-443
-Cody


That is the one I have on my sub. I usually leave them off, but on this install the sub is in the middle of the back part of the trunk, so I wanted a little bit of protection from the kids' backpacks and other stuff.

[Greg Peters]

While that grill from Parts Express looks good and will perform the function, another option would be to spray the Momo grill matching basecoat/clearcoat blue to match the exterior color of the 'stang- you'd lose the Polk logo and integrate the whole works in the process.

Beautiful car by the way, and the install looks great too.

[dolfan87]

I personally dont like a polk audio grill on a sub thats not polk audio...especially when it says it...

this is my all time favorite grill for any sub
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=260-443
-Cody

I was/am painting the grill so it says nothing, but was planning on re-painting it silver. I really want an SR sub, but the 500.1 really isn't enough power, and I don't have the cash left.

Do like that grill you posted though.

Honestly the car doesn't NEED a grill. There will never be anything in the trunk, as it is a show car/ special day cruiser.

It's also going to take some fab work to even mount the thing because it is designed to mount directly to the sub, and mine is recessed leaving a gap. I dunno boys, Cody's grill might be the answer. Quicky install if I ever DO have something back there, and it flows.

[exalted512]

You should take all the covers off your amps and the grill and paint them the color of the car. That would be sweet:D
-Cody

[dolfan87]

You should take all the covers off your amps and the grill and paint them the color of the car. That would be sweet:D
-Cody

Ok, grilling it.

There is a bunch of silver in the car (everything that WAS chrome on the car, has been painted or powdercoated silver or black) so the silver amps and grill go with that.

Nothing sexy got done today. I did some final prep work to the box, Dynomatted the glass portions inside the enclosure, wired up the external connector, filled it with fiberfill, and bolted it into the car.

I installed the sub, and mounted the cover.

I have NO idea if the Dynomat will really do any good, but I had a little bit hanging around, and tossed it in there.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/dolfan87/DSC00775.jpg

Fiberfilled the crap out of it.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/dolfan87/DSC00776.jpg

Installed. I have to paint the grill, and then figure out how to affix it. With the cover on there, it sits off the sub way to much.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/dolfan87/DSC00780.jpg

Tomorrow I won't get anything done. I am in a band, and we have rehearsal tomorrow at 3...lost day. :rolleyes:

[exalted512]

I think I'd like it more without the grill....that looks pretty damn clean right there. That or the black one from partsexpress...they have a chrome one in the same style if you think thatll look better
-Cody

[dolfan87]

I know, I am with you Cody...I like the clean.

Let's finish the rest of the install and then see how we all feel. LOL :D

Gram

[exalted512]

on second thought, you should just give all that stuff away, after all, its just adding weight to your car, Ill PM you my shipping address if you like :D
-Cody

[dolfan87]

Why stop there? Send the hauler on over and you can just take the whole car! ;)

[exalted512]

b/c its a ford! ;)
-Cody

[ben62670]

b/c its a ford! ;)
-Cody

Don't be starting trouble this is a nice thread!!!

[exalted512]

oops

[exalted512]

Don't be starting trouble this is a nice thread!!!
who me?http://i.grab.com/media/photos/small/00075/01/09/970901.jpg
-Cody

[dolfan87]

LOL...my poor Ford. Hey at least it's not a Civic. :D

I am going to be kinda sad when I finish the install...it's been a lot of fun so far. Of course I still have the kick pods, center console, and possibly (gulp) a video screen.

Maybe by the time that's all done I will be sick of it. ;)

[vawakemonster]

but if you get sick of CA the next day, naw it was nothing. theres no greater feeling then bulding something with your hands and then hearing percise sound come out of all your hard work.

[Josh]

LOL...my poor Ford. Hey at least it's not a Civic. :D

Watch it, buddy.

[dolfan87]

Watch it, buddy.

I can tell Josh owns a Civic...lol.

I personally don't have anything against them, save for the fact that 90% of the kids around here toss a carbon fiber hood, wing, and some nitrous on them, and think they are "To Fast and To Furious."

Mostly I wrote that because Cody wrote this in the Installation Showcase forum:

i dont think they have any GMC vehicles either
all i see is this ford escape and civic crap...i mean cars
the WRXs are sweet though!
-Cody

So it was a quip back at him.

G

[Josh]

I used to. Now I have a Ram.

[dolfan87]

I used to. Now I have a Ram.

That is a beautiful car. VERY nice!

[Josh]

Thanks. Here's the whole thing:

http://www.polkaudio.com/caraudio/installs/viewpolk.php?id=14

[ben62670]

Wana trade jobs Josh

[MacLeod]

I used to. Now I have a Ram.

Cause it takes a real man to drive a Ram. (it also takes a real man to ask his daddy to co-sign so he can KEEP his Ram :o )

dolfan - Dude, my hats off to ya. You are one talented individual. That is the best non-professional, shadetree installs Ive seen posted on here. The glass work on the box was as good as any shop wouldve done for $500+.

Hell, all the work youve done on that car is superb.

You shouldnt be asking us for advice, we should be asking you!

But since you did ask, I like it better without the grill. ;)

[dolfan87]

Cause it takes a real man to drive a Ram. (it also takes a real man to ask his daddy to co-sign so he can KEEP his Ram :o )

dolfan - Dude, my hats off to ya. You are one talented individual. That is the best non-professional, shadetree installs Ive seen posted on here. The glass work on the box was as good as any shop wouldve done for $500+.

Hell, all the work youve done on that car is superb.

You shouldnt be asking us for advice, we should be asking you!

But since you did ask, I like it better without the grill. ;)

Mac, seriously, thank you.

Thing is, the advice I have received on here has been a big help to me. You personally convinced me to go the Alpine with processor route (which by the way is today's project, getting the 701 installed on the passenger side of the trunk) and I also have a DVA unit because of you.

Only problem now is, I am starting to think about where I could put a screen. lol

Hopefully I can add to the community just as much as you guys have given me.

Gram

[MacLeod]

Since its going to be a show car I supppose a screen or 2 isnt out of place. Still Im just against video in cars. Just seems wrong to me but then Im kind of a purist.

I would rather see a nice system dedicated to the ultimate reproduction of good old fashioned 2 channel audio.

But, like I said, a show car need to get attention and tv screens do that.

[1996blackmax]

Wait till you have little ones. The monitors come in very handy on those nice 500 mile trips we take from San Diego to the San Francisco Bay Area ;).

[MacLeod]

Thats what Nyquil is for! Give em a dose or 2 of that and theyre out like lights. :D :p

[dolfan87]

Got the H701 wired and mounted on the passenger side of the trunk. I had a real difficult time of it because I ran the AI Net cable backwards ( one end is a 90, and the other is a straight, the 90 didn't work right on the 701 side) and had to tear half the interior apart to pull it out and turn it around.

THEN I could get no sound whatsoever out of my system. Finally found out that I had to flip a little switch on the bottom of the H.U. to "EQ."

So I officially heard the sub and the box. Problem was I only had one mid range hooked up just to see if both amps worked, and it was mostly just all bass. Kinda needed more highs to really tell anything. Hits fairly hard for a twelve though.

Tomorrow I will build the H701 cover, and get it wrapped, then the trunk will be finished. Sorry, no pics, the wife took off with the camera.

[MacLeod]

Just wait. The fun part is tuning all those 5,000,000 different EQ bands, crossovers, time alignement and everything else. ;)

Yeah, forgot to tell ya to flip that little switch on the bottom of the HU.

[Josh]

Wana trade jobs Josh


That depends. Are you a porn star? If not, then...no.

[dolfan87]

Well, finished up the trunk today. I made the passenger side board, and mounted/wired the H701, and two power distribution blocks. The reason for the power blocks is because the battery to the car is behind the H701 board, and if I ever want to run the trickle charger I can just pop the leather cover, and hook it up.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/dolfan87/DSC00787.jpg

Here is the cover prior to being wrapped.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/dolfan87/DSC00790.jpg

The main board mounted and painted up. I used the 1x2 as the support for the cover. Stapled velcro to the 1x2, and the back of the cover to hold it in place.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/dolfan87/DSC00792.jpg

Cover installed.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/dolfan87/DSC00793.jpg

That's it for the trunk folks! Tomorrow I will be laying the foundation glass for the kick pods, and yanking the dash pad out to mount the tweeters. Found that the tweets sound and image the best up near the windshield on the top of either side of the dash.

Played around with angling the mids, time alignment, eq, and x-over on the 701, and OH MY GOD is that thing the BOMB. I am in love. I got the imaging about three inches above the dash, and flat all the way across.

:D

[MacLeod]

Looks great!!

Yeah, there aint much you cant do with the 701!

[exalted512]

looks great, love the license plate
-Cody

[dolfan87]

Ok, I am at a crossroads here. I cut the rings as small as I could for the 5.25" I.D. mids because the clutch just gets SOO close to where I want to put the kick pods.

I am afraid I don't even have room to glass them in. I need suggestions from you guys on how to go about this. Here is a picture of the ring pressed up tightly against the corner where I can get away with leaving them.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/dolfan87/DSC00796.jpg

Now here is how close it is when I depress the clutch. Sorry i am wearing my painted up work shoes. ;)

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/dolfan87/DSC00797.jpg

It's TIGHT. Ideas?

[MacLeod]

Yikes! That is pretty tight.

You could cut into the sheet metal and mount them off axis (firing across at each other).

[exalted512]

go up higher in the kick, most of the time theres a hole there. You might not get as good as imaging, but youre not going to get great imaging with only one speaker when you smash your foot into that one
-Cody

[dolfan87]

This blows. I have to figure something out.

[MacLeod]

Ya got a better shot of the interior? And a shot of the kick panel area pulled back a bit would be good too. Maybe we can figure out a good place to stick those.

[dolfan87]

I will take a bunch of pictures. Thing is, these 5.25's have HUGE magnets, and I want to get a set of the SR5250's anyway. Looks like I am going to have to sell some stuff, and get some money together for the Polks. It will give me more options because the mounting depth is more shallow.

Gram

[dolfan87]

Ok, I went in there and pulled the kick panel. The vent I was talking about comes out with four screws...here it is.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/dolfan87/DSC00800.jpg

Once out, it leaves a HUGE 8" hole.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/dolfan87/DSC00801.jpg

This would be a dream if I had a pair of 8's for subs up front. Line the back with fiberglass, dynomat it, replace the kick panels and you would never even know it was there...BUT for mids, it's awful high up under the dash...check it out.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/dolfan87/DSC00803.jpg

I can cut away some metal, and lower it, but I hate hacking into the car like that. Thoughts? Should I just toss the speakers in there and see how they sound? Yes I should.

Gram

[dolfan87]

Sounds like crap. I am just going to make the darned things fit where I had them originally, and toss a pair of 6.5 or even 8" midbass in that hole. Should bring the front stage to life.

[exalted512]

or try a pair of 4" and put your midbasses in the door
-Cody

[dolfan87]

because of the window regulator, and crank handle, I can fit nothing in the doors save for the stock ULTRA thin speakers.

I think I have it to where I am going to be able to get those mids in low, and I now want to do the midbass!!

[dolfan87]

Screw it. I am making pods for the 5" mids. Here we go.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/dolfan87/DSC00804.jpg

Got it masked.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/dolfan87/DSC00806.jpg

Two layers drying as we speak.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/dolfan87/DSC00807.jpg

It's going to be tight, but I have to at least try. Really there are no options, cause the mids in that big hole under the dash sound like crap. No room in the doors, none in the dash, or a pillars...this is it.

Wish me luck.

Gram

[exalted512]

if you dont like em, you can always throw em away...
-Cody

[dolfan87]

That was my thinking. Worth a shot.

[MacLeod]

I say you could put them in the kicks. The hole isnt that far up and besides youd only need half of it anyway. Youre not going to put the entire speaker in there, just enough of it to clear some legroom.

[dolfan87]

Mac- I really hated the way those mids sounded off axis. They instantly became muddy and just not good.

[dolfan87]

Trimed up the base mold...four layers total. Glued in the ring too.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/dolfan87/DSC00808.jpg

Wrapped it, and set it in the car to make sure it still held its shape.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/dolfan87/DSC00814.jpg

Resined it. Funny thing, I applied the resin hours ago, and it is STILL really wet. I added the same amount of hardener I have always been adding.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/dolfan87/DSC00816.jpg

I put a light on it to try and get it to set up.

Gram

P.S. Found a dude selling a brand new set of I.D. 2 ohm 6.5" midbass. Guess where I will be hiding those? :D

[dolfan87]

The light is working...starting to set up now.

[Josh]

In the future, mix up more really hot and apply over the stuff that's not drying.

[dolfan87]

Josh, can I still do that...because there are a couple places that aren't drying still. I was going to just tear the felt off and start over.

Screws arrived yesterday, thank you so much!

[Josh]

Yeah, no problem. Just make sure you mix it up pretty hot.

[dolfan87]

Thank you.

[exalted512]

Just like he said, everyone has that problem every now and then...I usually dont, but then again my resin has about 5 minutes until its totally hard...needless to say, I have to buy at least a couple more tubes of the catalyst.
-Cody

[dolfan87]

Camera was with the wife again today...so the glass portion of the build got skipped. But here is the kick in primer.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/dolfan87/DSC00817.jpg

That's it...took me all afternoon to get it glassed, raged, and in primer.

[dolfan87]

Well the drivers side pod is done. honestly, it sounds nice, and by itself it looks nice, but added to the car and I think it looks out of place and crappy.

Here I finished it off with a texturizing spray, and used a piece of leather while the spray was wet to pat it down and give it a leather look matching the plastic in the car.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/dolfan87/DSC00818.jpg

Next i cut a couple vents in the back and added a pound of modeling clay to the inside.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/dolfan87/DSC00822.jpg

Screwed it into the car, added the speaker and grill. I hate the look. Me thinks I am going to redo it, and try and make it look like it's a part of the kick itself. I just didn't think the glass would stick to the plastic.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/dolfan87/DSC00824.jpg

I dunno. I was running along so well, and this really bums me out.

[MacLeod]

Dont get bummed dude. Kick panels are, hands down, the hardest thing to get right. Not only do they have to be stucturally spot on so they dont sound like crap, but they have to be aimed right for proper imaging but most of all, they have to blend seamlessly with the interior of the car. This aint easy.

Chin up tho my brother. Youve got more talent than most installers working in stereo shops so I have no doubt youll figure something out.

Have you thought about 'glassing them into the door panel?

[dolfan87]

Yeah, I can't cause the window crank uses that space. I didn't want power windows, but maybe I should re-think it.

Bleh, I am going to work on something else today. I need a break.

[exalted512]

glass doesnt stick to plastic, but you can shave the kick panel down and wrap the mat completely around it. I do kicks like that at our shop a few times a year, works great.
-Cody

[dolfan87]

I took a few days off and decided to get the car running after I got the distributor re-curved. Running great, and she got a bath today too. ;)

Now, I have a question. I got a screamin deal on a set of brand new Image Dynamic CX62 midbass. For sound quality, do you think that I should build an enclosure for that hole behind my kicks, or just second skin the crap out of the metal, and build a baffle? Baffle would obviously be the easiest, but I want the best SQ.

[exalted512]

try the baffle and see what it sounds like, you dont really even need to cover it unless you like the way it sounds. Generally, stuff sounds better in an enclosure, but sometimes it really is too much effort for not enough gain. And building an enclosure in that space is probably a candidate for that theory.
-Cody

[MacLeod]

I doubt there is enough room to build a properly sized enclosuer. Just let it run free air and vent into the frame.

[Deadof_knight]

The doors in these are quite spacey.... I havent dont mine yet because our is a pure hotrod

[Deadof_knight]

Go electric, then make some real nice door panels dude you got the glass part down go for it.

[dolfan87]

Sorry for the disapearing act. I am in a band, and we had a lot going on the last couple weeks. Not to get this thread off topic, but our label just released our first video...

Video Link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VdIsMUS11c)

I will be getting back to the Mustang shortly.