Interesting read for people new to the hobby

[simphiwes]

Even some horrendously expensive CD players (Wadia, for example) use terribly cheap transports and DAC's all purchased from third party vendors that use the same components in CD players that cost in the hundreds instead of the thousands.

The difference? Almost exclusively cost and perception of "prestige". Hi-fi is prone to heaps of snake-oil selling, and nowhere is this more prevalent than in components and cabling.

A good single-disc CD player shouldn't cost you more than $300 (US). If it does, and you think you actually perceive a difference, then there's something wrong with your ears. When measuring the difference between the noise floors of CD, DVD-Audio and SACD, one audiophile magazine failed to point out that, though on a graph it appears as though there's a great magnitude of variance between the noise floor on a linear 16-bit PCM signal vs. a SACD 1-bit DSD (2.7MHz) signal, in actuality the degree of difference was well below the human threshold of perception.

I have a Sony DVP-C600D (5-disc CD/DVD/VCD changer) that ran me about $500 US back in 1998, it's about one step below the Sony ES series. I have it connected to a Sony ES recever I bought for $530 US. Works phenomenally.

Provided you use either the optical or coaxial (S/PDIF) output from the CD transport to the receiver, it doesn't matter what DAC you have in the CD transport. The DAC in the receiver matters, but there's a law of diminishing marginal return.

The more money you spend on a receiver, the less perceptible benefit there is to be derived from it.

Find a recording that has a good representation of various kinds of music... not just jazz. In principle, a system that works better for one kind of music is engineered very poorly, as its goal in design is the accurate reproduction of any signal it is fed... and this is primarily in regards to speakers. If a CD PLAYER seems to work better for one kind of music than another, then something's either terribly screwed up in your ears or in the CD player. There's absolutely no reason the difference in representation should be discernible, except for gross manufacturing incompetence.

Take that recording to a stereo shop... bring a friend with you for part of this experiment. If the sales person suggests a particular component (as they have with me)... First ask them to quantify why. If they cannot be specific in their quantitative comparison and they start bringing up abstract things like "Well, Denon focuses only on audio... Sony makes all kinds of things" (um, Sony probably spends more on audio R&D alone than Denon's entire operating budget... but nevermind... it doesn't answer your question)... If they cannot be more specific and quantitative, tell them "thanks but no" and proceed with the experiment yourself, because at this point it's clear you're dealing with an idiot.

Then, do a blind test... have your friend control the test so you can be sure there's no monkeying going on. Switch out a few receivers/amps, CD transports and speakers.... and see where you can and can't tell what combination sounds better. If your answers aren't at least 75 percent consistent (i.e. preferring the same system more than 3/4 of the time), then you shouldn't be nitpicking over the range of systems you're looking at... and move down to a lower price range and start comparing systems within that range as well as between that range and the next range up... until you find an EASILY DISCERNIBLE difference.

If you have to "squint" your ears to perceive a difference rather than discerning from a relaxed state, then it's not worth it. Struggling to hear a difference can result in false positives.

If the audio store guys suggest some higher-priced components over the ones you're looking at, then ask if they're willing to be blind-tested on that assertion... same conditions, they have to be able to pick their preferred system more than 75 percent of the time. If they outright refuse to participate, leave the store.

Beyond the technical issues, lie certain aesthetics... I mean, if you like a metal casing over a plastic one, or if you like shiny buttons or other bells and whistles, that's your deal... How much you're willing to spend on such things is entirely arbitrary and up to you. There's no point in seeking external validation in this arena unless external validation is what's driving your purchase... in which case it shouldn't matter how good or bad the CD player is. Then just buy the one that has a namebadge obscure enough, and a pricetag high enough, to impress your friends and be done with it.

BUYERS TIP: If you want to really test the store, ask them if they have any CD players with Ferric Oxide-galvanized interconnects. If they say "Um, let's take a look at the reference manual," it's definitely time to leave.

[McLoki]

I guess we don't have to ask your opinion on if cables make a difference....

Michael

[simphiwes]

If your ears can tell the difference and your pocket can handle it then buy.

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

This entire post...is pretty useless... IMO of course

[simphiwes]

in the end the the ultimate goal is to enjoy the music.

[cfrizz]

Please post a link to this article or tell us which magazine you read it in.

Thanks.

[simphiwes]

a forum on allaboutjazz.com, i will post the link just now

[simphiwes]

forums.allaboutjazz.com/archive/index.php/t-11996.html

[Deadof_knight]

Well you can go buy a Ferrari or you can go buy a kit car cobra and run away from the Ferrari. I follow your thinking somewhat however I can definetly hear the difference in a pioneer dvd and a Rega transport both using same outputs. So how do you get around what your ears hear cause it was a big difference. Dont get me wrong I dont like listening to the sales guy at all. I know the owner so I just bypass him all together but sometimes its fun to ask them questions .......... just to stump them ..its fun to have a sick sence of humor. Super high end equipent hasnt impressed me yet

[steveinaz]

The "bits is bits" argument, though logical, just doesn't hold up in the real world---at least for many people.

To ball-park quote someone else on this forum (smartest thing I ever heard) "you don't buy your wine based on it's ingredients alone do you?"

[shack]

The finished product is not just the sum of the individual pieces. Give someone a pound of potters clay and you end up with an ugly ashtray...another person will give you a work of art. It's the same with electronics...there is value to the the way it is "made" regardless of the cost of the parts.

[F1nut]

Worst advice you could ever offer people new to this hobby. Should have never been posted.

[shack]

Worst advice you could ever offer people new to this hobby. Should have never been posted.

Just another "expert". How could we possibly survive in this hobby without them.

[zombie boy 2000]

You mean you don't agree with him guys?!? Screw me, I just sold all my gear and picked up this...
http://www.amazon.com/Fisher-Price-H6319-Nursery-Rhymes/dp/B000930CLA/sr=1-5/qid=1168446186/ref=sr_1_5/103-3220774-7143817?ie=UTF8&s=generic

[Ricardo]

$hit!! I need to go see if my neighbor will give me back my tube CDP......and I was so happy with the portability of the Discman...

[TroyD]

Ho-hum....

Another opinon offered as gospel.

Some of these folks REALLY need to consider taking up another hobby

BDT

[Early B.]

Like anything else, it is best to be an informed consumer when making purchases. This is particularly important in the audio world because it is so subjective. If you don't know what you're buying, you can get screwed. However, some folks with deep pockets aren't necessarily audiophiles, so price matters to them, not sound quality. Did they get screwed? Nope.

[reeltrouble1]

I truly appreciate your setting me straight. I have contacted a noted surgeon to have my ears repaired. I have though requested he use high quality cables on the operating equipment.

Thank you.

RT1

[reeltrouble1]

Believe it or not some folks are more sensitive to things like pitch, tempo, interval and rythym.

So which ones have screwed up ears? none of them, however, there brains are different and they should have some surgery to fix this.

RT1

[zombie boy 2000]

I have though requested he use high quality cables on the operating equipment.
Thank you.
RT1

Now there you go again... can you really feel a difference when the equipment wired with "high quality cables" is used to drill a hole in your brain? If you can, then you must have some mystical, magical sensory perceptors or something, because I'm not buying it. Can you give me a graph or a chart?

[reeltrouble1]

If the sales guy pitch is between denon and sony you have already given away credibility for your arguements fundamental foundation.

RT1

[reeltrouble1]

I am proof, I always use high quality cables for my surgeries, well, all except one time, but I dont want to talk about that one!!!:eek:

RT1

[zombie boy 2000]

Not good enough... I want you to invent an entirely new branch of physics. None of this apples falling out of the tree and shit. Something real. Something I can put in the oven and bake. Serve it to the in-laws and even they will be able to taste the difference. Because if it isn't in binary code followed by bunch of squiggly lines, how can you expect it to sound even remotely good?

[PolkThug]

There's some good advice in there:

"Then, do a blind test... have your friend control the test so you can be sure there's no monkeying going on. Switch out a few receivers/amps, CD transports and speakers.... and see where you can and can't tell what combination sounds better."

In other words, listen for yourself, only your own opinion is what matters.

[reeltrouble1]

for the simple reason that it pases the "if I were up your azzzz you would know it" test, best physical science advice I can give, or someone might need.

So you give this first post of thread advice to someone who can decern differences through innate musical learning intelligence between sounds and they then get to live their life listening to lo-fi, you should be ashamed and the baliff should wack your peepee.

RT1

[Toka78]

There's some good advice in there:

"Then, do a blind test... have your friend control the test so you can be sure there's no monkeying going on. Switch out a few receivers/amps, CD transports and speakers.... and see where you can and can't tell what combination sounds better."

In other words, listen for yourself, only your own opinion is what matters.

Thats the best advice of all. And I find it endlessly hilarious when people who won't hesitate to wear the 'expert' hat jump all over people who do the same when offering a different opinion.

[reeltrouble1]

cochise, nobody here (experts) told anyone any such thing, the poster however quotes an article stating if you can hear a difference in a piece of gear costing over 300 bucks then something is wrong with your ears.

Bullshit.

RT1

[zombie boy 2000]

I find it endlessly hilarious

Really?!? What a coincidence, because I find it infinitely hilarious.

We must have went to the same school:D

[read-alot]

cochise, nobody here (experts) told anyone any such thing, the poster however quotes an article stating if you can hear a difference in a piece of gear costing over 300 bucks then something is wrong with your ears.

Bullshit.

RT1

I agree.

He apparently hasn't listened to enough "pieces of gear" to make a statement like that.

[Ricardo]

just....


:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :confused: :eek: :cool:

[Toka78]

I was speaking in broader terms...as in, opinions are opinions, and the portion PolkThug quoted was all the advice anyone would really need.

[zombie boy 2000]

I think brushing your teeth three times a day is good advice...

But beyond that, it just becomes tiresome when so many of us here on the forum get so excited about a tweak here or new cables there and some tired old troll comes lumbering in with a stick and an agenda. If you don't like it, hear it, feel it, groove to it, get down to it, or otherwise believe it, then move along. You might as well tell me I really don't like pizza. The whole perception is reality and kadda wadda bing bang. Dig?

[Toka78]

I don't think you are following me...simphiwes cross-posted something that was on another board. Ok, whatever. His right to do so, his opinion, I don't care. He gets attacked as a 'false expert' or whatever, which is all well and good, but I've read some of these same posters, in other threads, posting their own opinions as absolutes. That is what I found to be funny...in an ironic way.

[reeltrouble1]

Please post a specific example of absolutism.

There are many funny things on CP forum pages, we all frequently get a good chuckle from the bags of bones passing our way.

RT1

[Toka78]

I'm almost done lunch, so I won't waste any more time digging up something 'specific', but a brief summary:

'No CD player under $1,000 can possibly be any good'

'If you don't notice a difference you are deaf'


Ad nauseum. Now, so I don't have to explain myself yet again, I'm not saying those opinions are invalid. They are OPINIONS. Fine and dandy. I really don't care. But, its a two-way street. People don't like when someone says their new whatever-majig is worthless, fine. But if someone starts a thread like this, I don't think those same people can rightfully jump all over him (I'm not directing this at any one person in particular).

Diggit?

[shack]

The "expert" I was referring to was not simphiwes it was the "expert" who wrote the article. That said, simphiwes did address it to "people new to the hobby". Like F1nut I'm not sure this is very good way to get people into the hobby. It promotes mediocraty. I have always been an advocate of try it yourself, decide for yourself then share what you find out. I have never bashed anyone for sharing their opinion...but sharing your experiences and condemning others are two different things.

[Toka78]

Gotcha...and agreed. Lets leave it at that and get back to the important stuff...any new Tasteful Babes I need to see? ;)

[zombie boy 2000]

Here ya go Toka...:D

[shack]

Ewwwwwww.... He said tasteful....

I gotta agree with Donald on this one.

[zombie boy 2000]

Me too:D
I don't know if you listen to Jim Rome, but Donald Trump is up for the smack-off championship. His tirade is the stuff of legend. Tells her she talks like a trucker, calls her his "fat little Rosie", and tell her to watch out for her girlfriend because some friends of his are coming by to take her out on a date...

classic

[Lsi9]

With some people you can let them hear $100.000 speakers and then turn on a $300 system and they wouldn't hear the difference.

I consider myself an audiophile newbie even though I have been at it for about 15 years, its not that my ears aren't sophisticated enough to catch good sound, I'd say it's because of my limited exposure to a wide variety of hi-end equipment.

For people that are new to the hobby I think they should be advised that it takes time to develop good taste in audio as well as exposure to good equipment so that one can discern the differences for themselves.

[cfrizz]

^Now there's a common sense approach! WTG LSI9.

[simphiwes]

with this post i was hoping to give someone new to the hobby some insight when thinking of buying audio equip. it does not matter what the sales person in the shop says most of the time they just wanna get that money out of you pocket into theirs, more so they just want to move the stock out of the shop, this view may not be true for all sales people but what matters most than his opinion is what your ears tell you.

[TroyD]

Uh-huh.

Great public service announcement.

I dunno, regardles, I think most people can tell when they are being fed a line of BS.

BDT

[F1nut]

Some better insight for folks new to the hobby. Get to know the sales person, build a relationship, and benefit from their knowledge. Do your own homework, there's plenty of info out there. Not everyone hears the same, trust your ears. What you hear in a showroom will not sound the same in your house. If at all possible, demo gear in your house. There is always something better. Your taste will change over time. Everything about this hobby is subjective, there are no absolutes. However, you usually get what you pay for and cables can make a difference. If you find yourself chasing your tail trying every piece you can get your hands on, you'll never be happy and should find a new hobby or see a shrink. Lastly, keep an open mind (and ears) and enjoy yourself.

[tonyb]

+1 ahmen to that

[mrbigbluelight]

Well, it's like someone once told me:

"Hey, my butt may be in my pants, but that doesn't mean I'm pooping !".


Back in the early days of high-end cassette decks (Nakamichi 1000), Dolby Digital Labs would promote Dolby Noise Reduction by stating that it reduced noise while leaving the musical content untouched. They had graphs/charts and the whole shebang to prove their point.

But you know what ? A lot (if not most) folks would switch off the Dolby feature because contrary to what Dolby Labs said, a lot of the music was getting deep-sixed along with the "hiss".

I think the MBBL Theorem is more accurate and appropriate: "Be happy with what you have until you can afford what you'd like".

There is the Law of Diminishing Returns which is true, of course: The higher up the ladder you go, the more it costs for each step. At some point it may be true that the minute difference in quality is hard to justify in terms of price. But if someone has the money, why not ?

BTW, the "butt in the pants" thing , uhm .... well, okay, so it really doesn't have anything to do with audio quality. But, then, neither did the first post.
:)

[Holydoc]

If your ears can tell the difference and your pocket can handle it then buy.

I did like this quote though. :)

[shoester5]

Bottom line..... if it sounds good to you then it is good.

If it wasn't for the difference in everybody's taste, we all would be listening to the same equipment.

[vhabaygiurbm]

Thanks for the post...

[heiney9]

For people that are new to the hobby I think they should be advised that it takes time to develop good taste in audio as well as exposure to good equipment so that one can discern the differences for themselves.

No doubt good advice for all serious hobbies. One of my other hobbies is wine and it took several years of coaching from my parents as well as sampling and listening to experts, etc to develop a taste for not only what I preferred but just to get some experience with all the different classes of wine.

Knowledge and experience are powerful tools. Oh yeah, don't forget the open mind thing too! :D

P.s. the advice given in the initial post is pure crap, one person's opinion and not a good one at that.

[tonyb]

No doubt good advice for all serious hobbies. One of my other hobbies is wine and it took several years of coaching from my parents as well as sampling and listening to experts, etc to develop a taste for not only what I preferred but just to get some experience with all the different classes of wine.

Wine huh....Got any Brunnello"s hanging around you'd like to share?:)

[ninerbj]

If you read the post carefully, he did mention that the transport is only as good as the signal being fed. For instance, he mentions the following...

"Provided you use either the optical or coaxial (S/PDIF) output from the CD transport to the receiver, it doesn't matter what DAC you have in the CD transport. The DAC in the receiver matters, but there's a law of diminishing marginal return."

This statment is true to form for you are not using the CDP's DACS.

In closing, I found it to be an interesting read. Do I agree with what this "expert" had to say?...NO! But what I did find interesting is how some of you responding to the LINK simphiwes shared with us get dangerously close to blaming him for what someone else wrote.

Thanks for sharing

[beardog03]

If you find yourself chasing your tail trying every piece you can get your hands on, you'll never be happy and should find a new hobby or see a shrink. Lastly, keep an open mind (and ears) and enjoy yourself.



Hey wait a minute Jesse...!!

Where have I heard this before..?!!!

Oh yah....
You have to remind me almost daily..!!!

The shrink said I was nutz, and my mind is soo open that I get sunlight and can hear the wind blow by...!!!


Poo Nuggets

:D

[davidk0512]

Worst advice you could ever offer people new to this hobby. Should have never been posted.

I think the advice is great for those that want to buy a system and are not interested in the experience. But for those that want to have fun tinkering, it would take the fun out the experience. In spending money for newer or in my case older stuff, I enjoy having the illusion that every "improvement" has made a significant difference. I think the same old CD sounds different everytime I listen to it depending of my choice of alcohol, beer definitely presents a different listening perspective than wine or Tito's and tonic or Crown and water. On the other hand, if you ask the wife, she'll say it still sounds the same, just turn it down.

[reeltrouble1]

gazoonheit.

ED Z.

RT1