New TT setup [Archive]

jm1

01-12-2007, 06:53 PM

All the LPs were packed away prior to the move to this house about 10 years ago. Most LPs are still in storage and will be retrieved once a safe resting location is found for them.
All the pieces of the puzzle have finally arrived and the initial TT installation is complete. After shopping around, I decided on the following:

VPI Scout TT
Dynavector 10x5 cartridge
PS Audio GCPH phono stage
Harmonic Technology 1M Truthlink RCA IC (TT to phono stage)
Harmonic Technology 3M Truthlink balanced IC (phono stage to preamp)
solid oak end table spiked to concrete floor

I have CD versions (personal or library) of several of the LPs I unpacked at this time. Having both media types of the same recording has allowed me to compare the vinyl and digital sources while both are concurrently playing.

I called several local retailers to inquire about LP cleaning machines. One retailer told me to bring some LPs to clean on a VPI-17. I brought along one LP purchased used and several purchased new. He said my new purchased LPs did not need any cleaning as I have only played them less than five times, but I had him clean one anyway.

While there, I also had a chance to listen to:

VPI HXR TT
Clearaudio Titanium cartridge
Aesthetix Io phono stage
Ayre Acoustics digital player
Ayre Acoustics pre/power amps
JBL Project Array 1400 ARRAY BG speakers
Acoustic Zen cables

This was the first time I have been able to listen to a high end TT source for more years than I care to mention. I brought along several CDs of the LPs and compared the vinyl to the digital sources. The HXR LP clamping mechanism is fantastic; it ensures the record is flat on the table. All TTs should have this type of record clamping mechanism. This alone might be a reason to upgrade to the Scoutmaster.

Overall, I will not say one format is better than the other. Both have shortcomings where the other may have merits. I did find it interesting that the retailer’s vinyl system was able to retrieve more low level information from the LP than was present on the CD. Switching between both sources during playback identified this. I had heard of this before, but it is interesting to actually experience this. Maybe one day we will get a high resolution media format which will combine the best of both.

After playing both media on my system, I would have to give the advantage to the digital source at this time. The vinyl source sounds very good and I am ‘content’ with the sonic characteristics. I still prefer the Museatex DAC over what I am hearing with vinyl. Digital playback with the DAC does not exhibit any of the harsh characteristics common of digital sources. The output is natural and dynamic. In direct comparisons, I find vinyl to have too much warmth and not enough dynamic range. Is this a setup issue? I do not know at this time as vinyl has only recently been reintroduced. More time needs to be dedicated to optimizing vinyl.

In the next couple of weeks, I should be getting a VPI-16.5 record cleaner. I am very impressed with wet cleaning. The used LP I had cleaned sonically sounds much better than the previous time it was played. Wet cleaning should also preserve my current collection for many years of future enjoyment.

Later in the year, I may experiment with different cartridges. I discovered that an ex coworker’s significant other has a VPI Scout and uses a Sumiko Blackbird cartridge. I have invited them over for a visit and encouraged him to bring his tonearm (VPI tonearms can be swapped in a matter of seconds) so we can compare cartridges.

And so another journey begins.

JM

BlueMDPicker

01-12-2007, 06:58 PM

Very, very nice!

Enjoy!

szhleppy

01-12-2007, 07:16 PM

Very nice! Great idea to start off the right way so you can spend time enjoying it.

cmy330go

01-12-2007, 08:03 PM

Great setup! Enjoy!

DAGLJAM6

01-12-2007, 10:59 PM

Nice TT, Don't you love how easy it is to set up that tonearm/cartridge?
I've had mine for the better part of a year and really enjoy it. Congrats.

cstpeter

01-12-2007, 11:30 PM

Nice setup, great post. And damn, way to get back into vinyl in style. I envy you.

What record you gonna throw on first? I recommend Steely Dan Gaucho. EDIT: I see you already set it up and did much listening, my bad. I'm not that strong of a reader.

Wanna hear more about the PS Audio phono. I'm in love with their stuff right now.

Enjoy.

jm1

01-13-2007, 02:26 AM

Thank you for the kind words. A lot of effort has gone into initially selecting the components. Locally, there is not much you can physically try as most needs to be specially ordered.

I played some songs from several LPs and concurrently played ‘Synchronicity’ by The Police. I found the sonic characteristics of the two sources to be more closely matched than in my previous comparison. This has renewed my interest in the capabilities of vinyl.

One issue requiring immediate attention is the image is shifted towards the right of center. The next step will be to fine tune the TT installation.

DAGLJAM6,

The VPIs are great but I am still not accustomed to the unipivot tonearm. Every time I cue an LP, I wonder if I will hit the lead-in groves. I think I am getting better at this now.

cstpeter,

For now, I will reserve comment directly on the GCPH until I have had a chance to try some other cartridges. I believe there are comments on this site regarding this unit and there is a review of the modded version at 10Audio (http://www.10audio.com/psaud_gcph.htm).

hearingimpared

01-13-2007, 02:45 AM

You just made my day well er ah night. I love when a good vinyl front end comes together and you sure put one together. I am a few days away from getting my analog rig going. I also have a VPI 16.5. I have lots of experience with wet cleaning. I recommend you get a preservative like LAST2 (http://www.tweakshop.com/LAST.html) that will treat your vinyl also. This stuff, and I don't remember all the technical talk on it, preserves the vinyl plus it makes it more plyable to the stylus thus reducing record wear as well as stylus wear.

Since I haven't heard my TT rig vs my digital front end I'll reserve any comments about as to whether the two can compete or whether vinyl still kicks the daylights out of CDs. On thing is for certain, you were right about the low level detail.

cmy330go

01-13-2007, 04:54 AM

....I played some songs from several LPs and concurrently played ‘Synchronicity’ by The Police.....

That album is a must have for anyone that is into vinyl.

reeltrouble1

01-13-2007, 11:28 AM

I agree with using both formats, certainly I have my all vinyl days, then the next time it may be all digital, congrats on the TT setup, she looks sweet and has it going on.

Excellent write up, looks like Club Polk has another winner jm1.

RT1

TroyD

01-13-2007, 11:50 AM

Looking good!

BDT

Fireman32

01-13-2007, 12:29 PM

Congrats on the rig. I got my rig up and running and now im hook on vinyl. Let us know what you think of the cleaner as I need to purchase one myself.

jm1

02-20-2007, 08:50 PM

After having several of my records cleaned on a VPI HW-17 by the local retailer, I decided to purchase a record cleaning machine for my personal use. In the past, I had recorded most of my albums to cassette using dbx type II NR (dbx 224x external noise reduction unit). At this time, I do not have the cassette player connected to the two channel system so I will be playing the source instead of the backup media. One day when I have the rack space, I may resurrect the cassette source and tapes from storage.

I put my name down for one new VPI HW-16.5 units arriving in his next shipment. And so began the wait.

I took this time to research various cleaning fluids. While looking on CP, I came across a thread (http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21476) created by our kind benefactor and local TT guru, Kenneth Swauger, regarding a record cleaning fluid. Ken was kind enough to provide the recipe for this fluid via email and a potential source for the ingredients. After conducting some research on procuring the ingredients, I came across the source of the recipe. It looks like the recipe was created by the National Library of Canada in 1997. There is a web page (http://www.collectionscanada.ca/6/28/s28-1019-e.html) devoted to the care of media.

I ordered a quart of each ingredient from Talas (www.talasonline.com) as I was not able to readily find any other source in quantities less than a 50 gallon drum. The ingredients arrived shortly after ordering. Two tablespoons of each ingredient are added to one gallon of distilled water. And so the wait continued.

The local retailer finally received the shipment of VPI HW-16.5 record cleaning machines. At this time, I also purchased 50 new inner sleeves for cleaned records.

I have been procrastinating on purchasing additional supplies, but now I need to source some inner sleeves, a MF record brush with extra pads and a couple of carbon fiber brushes from an online source for future wet cleaning. I believe I will use Sleeve City (http://www.sleevetown.com) as the source for this purchase.

I cleaned four records over the weekend. One side was cleaned using the enclosed VPI cleaning fluid and the other side was using the in house created cleaning fluid. I now plan to listen to both sides of the records to determine if there are any differences in the sonic characteristics.

Overall, I am impressed with the VPI cleaning machine. The platter is solid and provides a sturdy surface to clean the records. The platter motor has enough torque to spin the platter when vacuuming the fluids from the record surface. The vacuum also has enough suction to remove the fluids by the completion of the second revolution. Removal of the used cleaning fluids is accomplished by simply unclamping the attached hose and draining the fluid into a container. My only complaint is that the hose does not reach the floor from a table top.

I have only used the included VPI record brush. My only comment at this time is that the brush bristles appear to be too thick to reach deep into the record grove. But I may be wrong in this observation. I was planning to use a carbon fiber brush to reach deep into the groves so this point may be moot.

Anyways, the 16.5 is a welcome addition to supplement the care of my media. Now the fun begins to rediscover the music of my previous life that has been quiet for far too long.

I think my next move will be to get a better cartridge for the table. The leading candidates are a Shelter 901 or the new Shelter 5000 as I have been told the retailer these mate well with the table.

EDIT

Tergitol

pblanc

02-20-2007, 09:36 PM

I have a VPI Scout and a Dynavector 10x5 as well, although currently my table is fitted with an NOS Adcom high output mc cart, which I think I like a little better. I like the table and cartridge quite a bit. My Scout is fitted with a Rega RB 300 arm instead of the JWM tonearm.

My observation is that vinyl gives up nothing to digital in terms of frequency response, and usually vinyl wins. LPs certainly don't have the theoretical dynamic range of CDs (maybe 70 db for vinyl as opposed to 96 db for conventional CD, but it seems that so many CDs are so indifferently recorded and mastered that the potential dynamic range is seldom approached. Of course, for many the biggest drawback for vinyl is the S/N ratio where vinyl tends to loose due to surface noise. Obviously, this will depend a lot on the condition of your LPs and how you treat them. Some folks seem to be able to "filter out" the surface noise, and some just can't.

If you channels are unbalanced, and you haven't already done so, check the azimuth on your stylus. Remember, it may look like the cartridge body is square to the platter surface, but there may be a few degrees of rotation between the stylus itself and the cart body. Obviously, to see this you are gonna need either some very good eyes or some type of optical magnification.
If the azimuth looks OK and you haven't already done so, disconnect and reconnect the headshell leads to your cartridge to make sure they are all making good contact. If channels still unbalanced, try adjusting the "anti-skate". Since the JMW arm has no antiskate mechanism, this invoves putting a twist in the leads that connect the arm to the juncion box so as to put some "unwinding force" on the arm directed towards the outer platter edge. If still no better, try another cartridge. (I'm assuming you have alreaady tried reversing the interconnects).

I'm not going to argue with absolute certainty that vinyl is better than digital, or vice verse, but I am going to argue with absolute certainty that anybody who considers themselves a "serious listener" (whatever the hell that is) who has not given vinyl a try, damn sure should. And you do not need to invest a boat load of money up front.

hearingimpared

02-21-2007, 03:53 AM

I'm not going to argue with absolute certainty that vinyl is better than digital, or vice verse, but I am going to argue with absolute certainty that anybody who considers themselves a "serious listener" (whatever the hell that is) who has not given vinyl a try, damn sure should. And you do not need to invest a boat load of money up front.

This is a great thread. I have only listened to about a dozen or so LPs since I got me rig going. I am a vinyl junkie, always was, always will be. When I heard my first record Sunday night for the first time in almost twenty years I was right back to my Vinyl kicks the daylights out of redbook CDs attitude, please let me explain a little. I have five versions of the classic Jazz at the Pawnshop, the double LP on 180gm, the double LP on regular vinyl, the double CD set, the double SACD/CD/etc and the CDs Vol 1, 2 & 3. I am very very familiar with every cut of these awesome recordings.

Sunday night, I listened to the double LP 180gm version first. I then listened to the double CD set, and then the LP version again, and then the SACD. All on three different front ends, more on that later. The comparision was done specifically with the cut "Lady Be Good."

I'm not going to go into details here because I am going to start a separate review thread on this including equipment but I can say without reservation the LPs sounded more real, more live, more musical, more detail, more information and more emotion then the CD. The CDs didn't hold a candle. Now as far as the SACD. . .that is a different story all-together. The SACD sounded different I won't say better or worse just different.

That's all for now folks. . .Back to you JM and thanks for starting this thread!!! BTW the VPI 16.5 is definetely a winner and a keeper.

treitz3

02-21-2007, 04:06 AM

I did find it interesting that the retailer’s vinyl system was able to retrieve more low level information from the LP than was present on the CD. Switching between both sources during playback identified this. I had heard of this before, but it is interesting to actually experience this. Maybe one day we will get a high resolution media format which will combine the best of both.
My observences agree with you on this. SACD is the closest to vinyl yet, but I do agree that the low end is a little bit more natural [accurate]. IMHO.

hearingimpared

02-21-2007, 04:12 AM

My observences agree with you on this. SACD is the closest to vinyl yet, but I do agree that the low end is a little bit more natural [accurate]. IMHO.

Welcome to Club Polk treitz3, I like your way of thinking or rather hearing.:D

haimoc

02-21-2007, 09:12 AM

Jm, very nice writing about TT and beautiful setup. One day, I would get a nice TT. I feel it is too much work to collect all parts of a TT to put them together (table, catridge, etc..).

hearingimpared , I am looking forward to your coming review on TT.

pblanc

02-21-2007, 12:02 PM

If you don't want to take the trouble to assemble and set up a turntable, why not just buy a decent, used turntable that someone has alreagy set it up? All you would need then would be a phono stage on your Pre/Pro or receiver, or if you didn't have one, you could buy an inexpensive phono preamp for about $50. If you "got into it" you would probably want to upgrade at some point, but the initial cost can be fairly modest. I just don't understand why owning a turntable is perceived to require such great effort. Of course, then again, I grew up with turntables in the 1960's

Wardsweb

02-21-2007, 12:56 PM

Congratulations on your latest setup. Vinyl is a doulble edged sword for sure. It can bring audio bliss and can at times raise your blood pressure from setup issues, a dropped stylus, and the never ending pursuit of nirvana. I love vinyl and recommend if you ever get the chance to listen to or buy the B&W (BOWERS & WILKINS) Very Audiophile New Recordings, do yourself a favor and do. I have the 180g vinyl but it is also available on SACD. Sara K. singing Turn My Upside Down has the most incredible imaging of any album I've ever heard. This direct metal master vinyl is some of the best produced. Not only sonically but it plays quiet right out of the sleeve. This is now my demo album for when people come over.

http://wardsweb.org/misc/bwaudiophile.jpg

By the way I run a Clearaudio Champion II table fitted with a SME 309 arm and Benz Micro Glider. For cleaning, I have a SOTA.

miner

02-21-2007, 02:49 PM

After a 24 yrs absence, I, too have rediscovered vinyl. At first my wife thought I was nuts, but then she listened in concentration and has now been converted. My newest rig consists of a Rega P5, TTPSU & Exact2 cartridge. I have yet to get a RCM but currently use an Orbitrac2, Mobile Fidelity brushes, carbon fiber brush and a DIY solution (4 parts distilled water, 1 part 91% isopropyl alchohol and 2 drops of ivory soap (1/2 gallon solution) alond with a ZeroDust stylus cleaner.

pblanc

02-21-2007, 03:21 PM

And who said wives don't know nuttin 'bout audio?

jm1

02-28-2007, 06:46 PM

The other week I finally received a stylus gauge. Until this point, I was somewhat hesitant adjusting the tonearm. I made some adjustments to the azimuth of the cartridge to correct the center image between the speakers. This was better than before, but I was still a little disappointed in the final result.

Over the weekend, I decided to take the TT off the stand and start afresh. The stand was leveled using the spikes I installed on the bottom of the legs. The TT feet were then adjusted so that each leg had the same tension on the isolation material. The TT was then placed on the stand and the feet where then adjusted less than 1/8 of a turn to accommodate stand top variances to remove any rocking motion of the plinth. This time to level the platter, I adjusted the stand’s spikes instead of adjusting the TT’s feet. The tonearm’s azimuth and tracking force where once again adjusted.

I played some records I had listened to prior to the latest round of adjustments. I am not sure how objective this is, but I found the overall result to be much better than prior experiences. There was more texture and detail to notes being played; the separation of note improved as did the ‘air’ around them. The frequency extremes were also extended to what I had expected from the TT and phono stage of this level.

These changes to the tonal characteristics drew me into the music as if I was listening to a good digital recording. Yes, I will say this within the same text describing a vinyl source. The Museatex Bitstream DAC with the Moray James digital IC is very natural sounding. So much so, I have defaulted the Pioneer DV-59 transport to retrieve the CD layer of SACD discs and no longer specifically look for SACD versions.

I also listened to several of the records I recently cleaned using the RCM. Without a doubt, I am now totally convinced of the benefits of wet cleaning records. This was money very well spent. I was so involved with the music that I did not want to compare the cleaning fluids as per my prior post.

Just before the holiday season, I purchased about 30 records locally. These records were played on a very high end system and were cleaned with a RCM. One title I had not listened to was the ‘Talking Heads’, ‘Stop Making Sense’. This particular album is a UK pressing of better than standard quality. It was fantastic; no noise and very good dynamics. What a great experience that was.

The other week, I found about 190 70’s - 80’s albums in mint condition for $150; no dust, finger prints, scratches etc. After quickly flipping through albums (they were in a garage on a very cold weekend), I noticed I did not come across any in my collection. Once at home I found there were only about four duplicates. I also discovered the albums were not stored properly and have a warp the clamp can not remove. I did verify the records are in excellent condition with the exception of the warp. I am now looking at the VPI periphery ring clamp for the TT. So I do not get any replies to this, IT WILL WORK on the Scout platter and my thoughts were confirmed by VPI. I will post the method at a later date if I decide to proceed with this. Who knows, this may be stepping stone to a Scoutmaster. Maybe an upgrade to the signature arm for the current TT. Maybe …

In hindsight, I should have purchased the 1100 records someone had for sale for $150 this past October. At that time I was not convinced I would be an active collector in the future. This will not happen again. The TT will be an active part of my listening pleasure. I now need to purchase new inner sleeves and clean all those albums.

hearingimpared

02-28-2007, 07:52 PM

Do yourself a favor and purchase Vinyl-Zyme Gold (http://www.smartdev.com/buggtussel.html). I have used this Bug Juice first on all my records even ones that were not damaged in a flood. This stuff is amazing. It eats the crap that grows in the grooves over time. If you had your collection in storage for ten years this product is a must.

One 2 oz. bottle makes four gallons of solution or one gallon of extra strength. This is more than you'll ever use unless of course you are like me and use it on every LP. When I am cleaning a record that has been in storage, I use this first then MFSL super deep cleaning fluid, then MFSL record wash, I finish with VPI record cleaning fluid. If I am just cleaning a record that has been sitting around a while, I use the Bug Juice then VPI record cleaning fluid. I am waiting on my order of LAST 2. This is a record preservative. I have used the original product called LAST and it worked very well.

Although I believe MFSL Super Deep cleaning fluid MAY disolve and clean off the mold release compounds used by record manufacturers to ease removal of the record from the stamper, it is written no where on the MFSL bottle that is does do this job. There was a product years ago that did make this claim and it was called FIRST but was taken off the market because it wasn't evironmentally save. . . cut me a break this stuff worked really well. I am currently researching that type of product.

I am intreged by this thread and hope we can keep it alive.

I you want a real vinyl treat, get a hold of the Pink Floyd best of called "Echos." It is a four LP set that is extremely well done. It is so quiet that if I hadn't cued it up myself I wouldn't have thought it an LP. I was listening to this about 1:00AM this morning and had the volume set to 12:00. It is a magnificent LP set.

hearingimpared

03-01-2007, 12:20 AM

One other thing I wanted to run by you. If you have a VTA (vertical tracking angle) adjustment, try setting your the back of your tone arm a few degrees lower than your stylus. I've found that most cutting lathes are set with the arm lower than the cutter. With most LPs everything, image, detail, depth of image snap into focus when it is set lower. It is true for most but not all. I have a record that I use to test the VTA. The only problem is that it tests the VTA for that test record, but it does enable you to recognize the sound improvement when the VTA is set right everything snaps into focus.

Beware though . . . you can go crazy trying to set it right for every LP, that is why I leave the back part of the tonearm lower than the stylus as all times.

jm1

03-09-2007, 06:04 PM

hearingimpared

03-09-2007, 06:19 PM

I have been thinking of upgrading the cartridge on the TT.

I have been looking around as best as I can for something which would be for long term use. There are several that have caught my attention lately:

- Shelter 901
- Shelter 5000 (direct replacement for the 901)
- ZYX R-100FXH (Fuji, 6N single crystal copper, high output)
- Sumiko Blackbird
- upgrade to a higher model in the Dynavector line

Does anyone have any experience with these lines and the particular noted models? I would be interested in your impressions.

Thanks.

I have a Dynavector 10 x 5 and after about 20 hours of break in, this cartridge is all it has been made out to be and more. I love the detail and it tracks like no other cartridge I've ever seen plus compared to the other cartridges listed above the price is less than one-third. I was thinking about the Sumiko Blackbird and the Bluebird Special. I just went with the 10 x 5 and have never looked back. I acutally got it for $80 less than the prices on the big websites. It is a perfect match for my SME V tonearm and that is an important factor here. Here is an article on how to determine if a cartridge matches up to a tone arm. (http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/tonearmcartridge.html)

Let us know how you make out.

jm1

03-09-2007, 07:03 PM

Thanks for the reply, I have the Dynavector 10x5 with about 20 hours of use. For the price, it has been a great choice. Highly recommended. Just thinking for the future enjoyment.

hearingimpared

03-09-2007, 08:05 PM

Thanks for the reply, I have the Dynavector 10x5 with about 20 hours of use. For the price, it has been a great choice. Highly recommended. Just thinking for the future enjoyment.

I try not to do that. . . it gets me into financial trouble LOL.

Really though, when you do decide and get a better cartridge please do us the honor of a write up.

jm1

03-09-2007, 08:45 PM

Will do. It may be sooner than you expect.

hearingimpared

03-09-2007, 08:56 PM

Will do. It may be sooner than you expect.

Green with envy :D :D :D HAPPY HUNTING BRO!

SCompRacer

03-09-2007, 09:33 PM

Does anyone have any experience with these lines and the particular noted models? I would be interested in your impressions.

Thanks.

I had a used low hour Dynavector 20XH (high output) for a short while until I snagged the stylus with my shirt sleeve. 20X high outputs were scarce as hens teeth at that time so they took pity on me and gave me a great deal on a Sumiko Blackbird. I felt the Dyna was smoother while the Blackbird is a little more detailed and nuetral. Carl, Norm, and Victor have heard it.

You've got a good adjustable phono stage so you can go just about anywhere with a cartrdige. The Blackbird is high output and 47k Ohm which makes it a great match for non-adjustable stages. I just have to avoid sub-mV cartridges with my iPhono.

One thing I really love about the Blackbird is the threaded body. No messing around with little nads, I mean nuts.

hearingimpared

03-09-2007, 09:38 PM

One thing I really love about the Blackbird is the threaded body. No messing around with little nads, I mean nuts.

This is one of those common sense things like record clamps on turntables that I thing all cartridge manufacturers should all be doing. Theaded bodies; they would be a cinch to install and would give a tight, rigid coupling to the headshell.

SCompRacer

03-09-2007, 11:38 PM

This is one of those common sense things like record clamps on turntables that I thing all cartridge manufacturers should all be doing.

Having big fingers and needing tri-focals for up close work, I agree.

hearingimpared

03-10-2007, 12:10 AM

Having big fingers and needing tri-focals for up close work, I agree.

You forgot the shakes, sweats, and the oh F#$ks!!!

jm1

03-10-2007, 12:14 AM

I just pulled the trigger on a ZYX R100(FUJI) FX H-SB cartridge. Will update once it arrives and is installed on the TT.

hearingimpared

03-10-2007, 12:19 AM

AHHHHHHHHHA I knew you were teasing me earlier. I can't wait till you get it set up. Would you mind sending a PM to me to give me a little glimpse as to what kind of money they demand?

jm1

03-20-2007, 08:54 PM

hearingimpared

03-20-2007, 09:32 PM

I am not sure I want to visit this forum any more; it is starting to cost me a small fortune just to listen to records again.

I finally received the VPI 300 RPM motor for the Scout's SAMA. This will replace the standard 600 RPM motor. I will install this later tonight.

There is a ZYX R100FX(H)-SB cartridge in transit.

I have a copy of the Analogue Productions ULTIMATE ANALOG TEST LP, 180g LP.

There is an Origin Live - Digital Stylus force gauge in transit.

As I have not been through this process for more years than I care to admit, I purchased a copy of the Michael Fremer Turntable Set-Up DVD

Next post will be the results of the above. Wish me luck in setting up the ZYX as it appears they require precise alignment.

Good luch Bro and Fremer's DVD is chock full of what needs to be done. Don't forget to download the pdf because there is more information in that one document in one place on vinyl rigs than anywhere in this world.

What are you doing with the old motor? I may be able to use it in my rig.

PS: I've watched Fremer's dvd three time already and still need to go back for more but he features tonearms that have finger hooks and that is what he uses to set anti-skating. My tonearm allows the anti-skating to be set the same as the VTF and it is pretty accurate.

jm1

03-20-2007, 11:12 PM

Sorry, the 600 RPM motor is going back to VPI.

I will have a look at the pdf file.

Thanks.

hearingimpared

03-20-2007, 11:51 PM

Sorry, the 600 RPM motor is going back to VPI.

I will have a look at the pdf file.

Thanks.

Thanks anyway, I have started saving for a new turntable but I'm keeping my SME V. I'm thinking it's going to take me a few months to get the amount together.

jm1

03-21-2007, 05:30 PM

Just received delivery notice (duty required) for the new cartridge and stylus gauge was delivered as well. Looks like I will be busy for the next few weeks.

Also received delivery notice for the anniversary edition of Jazz at the Pawn Shop along with a MF record brush and more LP inner sleeves.

:cool:

hearingimpared

03-21-2007, 07:24 PM

jm1

03-26-2007, 02:00 PM

The new 300 RPM motor was installed replacing a 600 RPM motor.

The ZYX cartridge was installed on the JMW-9 arm. The VTF was set to 1.89g and the arm pillar was lowered from horizontal during the initial setup. Unfortunately, there is no fine VTF adjustment on the arm so setting this is somewhat difficult.

I listened to a few records, then concurrently played several recording I have on LP and CD. After level matching the two sources, the overall presentation of both was astonishingly similar. The CD still has the edge in overall dynamics. There was also a slight difference in the mid/upper treble. I am not sure if one CD had more ‘noise’ than the LP or the LP was not recreating the treble correctly; my thinking at this time is the CD introduces some noise creating a false sense of ‘air’ around the instruments. This requires further investigation.

Overall, this has been a very worthwhile upgrade. There are a lot of comments regarding the ZYX series as having a neutral presentation. I fully agree with these statements.

jm1

06-11-2007, 01:07 PM

I have upgraded the JMW-9 Standard arm for a Signature arm. This should arrive by next week. I am looking forward to having the fine VTF adjustment as well as the additional refinements and now should now be able to precisely calibrate the ZYX cart.

This morning, I also received 'authorization' for upgrading the standard acrylic platter to the new Super Platter. I will start this process later this week.

This past Saturday, I found a garage sale which had about 600-700 records in excellent shape for $1 each. Picked up about 220 which brings the collection to about 1500. I had a storage problem which continues to compound.

Last summer I just wanted to play the 350-400 records I had in storage...

Joey_V

06-11-2007, 09:14 PM

JM1,

The Scout is a killer table! Definitely up there!

I was just about to pull the trigger on it, but I've decided to wait it out and get the Scoutmaster or the Aries 3, though this willl take me more time than I'd like.

Probably wont get my rig together until after Christmas...

:(

Anyway, happy trails in your vinyl adventure!

Joey

Joey_V

06-11-2007, 09:21 PM

OH... and what do you think of the GCPH?

Also, why did you change from 600rpm to 300rpm motors?

hearingimpared

06-11-2007, 10:38 PM

This past Saturday, I found a garage sale which had about 600-700 records in excellent shape for $1 each. Picked up about 220 which brings the collection to about 1500. I had a storage problem which continues to compound.

Last summer I just wanted to play the 350-400 records I had in storage...

Awesome find! I would love to hear that ZYX cart. I recommend Vinyl-Zyme Gold to get the mold out of the grooves of those records you just purchased. You can get it here. (http://www.smartdev.com/buggtussel.html) :)

mulveling

06-12-2007, 02:06 PM

Awesome find! I would love to hear that ZYX cart. I recommend Vinyl-Zyme Gold to get the mold out of the grooves of those records you just purchased. You can get it here. (http://www.smartdev.com/buggtussel.html) :)
That same Vinyl-Zyme stuff is also available here (http://www.smartdev.com/buggtussel.html) - Buggtussel's cheaper on the 8oz but they're the same on the concentrate and you might get to save a couple bucks on shipping with TTVJ (ask Todd to ship USPS). You should get the concentrate if you have more than 30 records to clean :)

I've been using this stuff and I haven't got anything to compare to but I'm extremely impressed. Even on old records the rice krispies are kept to a very very reasonable level. With new vinyl and a few particularly pristine old discs, it's almost completely eliminated - and you're just left with a very low noise floor which is not too far from CD noise floor. It's amazing. I also use an Onzow Zerodust for occasionally cleaning the stylus, a Milty ZeroStat and a Miltry carbon-fibre brush. Each cleaned disc goes right into a new anti-static poly-lined paper sleeve. Seems to be doing the job and then some :)

I know a friend with a much higher end TT rig than me, but I think I might have that setup beat on noise floor, at least.

jm1

06-12-2007, 03:07 PM

OH... and what do you think of the GCPH?

Also, why did you change from 600rpm to 300rpm motors?
The GCPH is highly regarded and I find it to be a very good phono stage. I had tried a couple others (Project Phono Box SE, Project Tube Box SE and another I do not recall at this time) from the local stores. I preferred the sonic characteristics of the GCPH better than the others. One day I would like to get the Underwood modifications performed on the unit. This is supposed to take the unit to another level. If you are planning on buying new, I would suggest this as there is not a significant price difference.

I switched the motor as it is quieter and lowers the resonance frequency to below the tonearm/cartridge.

hearingimpared

06-12-2007, 03:35 PM

That same Vinyl-Zyme stuff is also available here (http://www.smartdev.com/buggtussel.html) - Buggtussel's cheaper on the 8oz but they're the same on the concentrate and you might get to save a couple bucks on shipping with TTVJ (ask Todd to ship USPS). You should get the concentrate if you have more than 30 records to clean :)

I've been using this stuff and I haven't got anything to compare to but I'm extremely impressed. Even on old records the rice krispies are kept to a very very reasonable level. With new vinyl and a few particularly pristine old discs, it's almost completely eliminated - and you're just left with a very low noise floor which is not too far from CD noise floor. It's amazing. I also use an Onzow Zerodust for occasionally cleaning the stylus, a Milty ZeroStat and a Miltry carbon-fibre brush. Each cleaned disc goes right into a new anti-static poly-lined paper sleeve. Seems to be doing the job and then some :)

I know a friend with a much higher end TT rig than me, but I think I might have that setup beat on noise floor, at least.

Amen on the concentrate. It makes either 4 gallons regular strength or 1 gallon extra strength which is what I use. If I don't need the extra strength quaility I use 5 sprays on each record side instead of ten.

From what I understand above, you only use the Onzow "for occasionally cleaning the stylus?" I used after each played side of a record. Is there something I don't about the Onzow that you don't use it as such?

mulveling

06-12-2007, 03:51 PM

From what I understand above, you only use the Onzow "for occasionally cleaning the stylus?" I used after each played side of a record. Is there something I don't about the Onzow that you don't use it as such?
Nope, I'm still a vinyl newbie, and if I'm doing anything right it's likely by accident :D

I use the Onzow after every 2 or 3 LP's. I shouldn't have said "occasionally", which gives the impression of once every few dozen LP's, which fortunately isn't the case :) I do use the Milty brush & Zerostat treatment for every side.

Still, I suppose it can't hurt to use it even more often, and better safe than sorry?

hearingimpared

06-12-2007, 05:12 PM

Nope, I'm still a vinyl newbie, and if I'm doing anything right it's likely by accident :D

I use the Onzow after every 2 or 3 LP's. I shouldn't have said "occasionally", which gives the impression of once every few dozen LP's, which fortunately isn't the case :) I do use the Milty brush & Zerostat treatment for every side.

Still, I suppose it can't hurt to use it even more often, and better safe than sorry?

I would definitely use the Onzow after every side played. I need to clean my Onzow atleast once a week because it starts to look like a teenager's forehead . . .full of black heads!

I use a Hunt brush and the Zerostat also. I found that Zerostat works best if you point it about one inch from the record surface and squeeze slowly and still pointing release the handle. . . go all the way around the record cutting the record into 5ths. So five shots. I came acrosse this method during the winter months with the heat on and just vacuumed a record with the VPI 16.5. As I was removing the record I felt the static build up and the hair on my arm was being raised by the static. :eek: I tried all different methods with the Zerostat and what I described above completely removed all static.:)

jm1

06-12-2007, 07:14 PM

Yes, the Zerostat trigger must be SQUEEZED AND RELEASED SLOWLY for it to be effective. You should hear a slight hissing sound when you find the correct trigger speed. If you hear any clicking sounds, you are squeezing too fast. I have the barrel about four inches off the record surface when I treat my records. I go through three trigger cycles when applying to a record.

This information was included in the instructions when I purchased mine in the early 80’s. Yes, I still have this Zerostat gun and it continues to work like new. Highly recommended for all TT users.

On the Greek Audiophile Club video, one member demonstrates how NOT to use the Zerostat.

hearingimpared

06-12-2007, 07:49 PM

This information was included in the instructions when I purchased mine in the early 80’s. Yes, I still have this Zerostat gun and it continues to work like new. Highly recommended for all TT users..

Yep mine is from the 80s also!!

On the Greek Audiophile Club video, one member demonstrates how NOT to use the Zerostat.

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA I remember that scene and like a dope tried it out!!! I think the Greek Audiophile was doing it just for luck.:D

BTW the hair on the arm thing is a great indicator as to whether or not the static is gone or not. Another indicator that there is still static present is when you are taking your record from the cleaning machine to the turntable and you see an onslaught of white particles following you around!

jm1

06-12-2007, 08:09 PM

BTW the hair on the arm thing is a great indicator as to whether or not the static is gone or not. Another indicator that there is still static present is when you are taking your record from the cleaning machine to the turntable and you see an onslaught of white particles following you around!
I have only cleaned about 25 -30 records thus far (mainly due to time constraints), but I do not have a static problem.

How many record revolutions do you have the vacuum on? I only do two revolutions as I found any more introduces static. I turn off the vacuum just before the completion of the second revolution. I find this provides adequate removal of all fluids from the record surface.

I still remember your prior recommendation about the enzyme treatment. There are other fluids mentioned on AA that I am looking into.

hearingimpared

06-13-2007, 12:21 AM

I have only cleaned about 25 -30 records thus far (mainly due to time constraints), but I do not have a static problem.

How many record revolutions do you have the vacuum on? I only do two revolutions as I found any more introduces static. I turn off the vacuum just before the completion of the second revolution. I find this provides adequate removal of all fluids from the record surface.

I still remember your prior recommendation about the enzyme treatment. There are other fluids mentioned on AA that I am looking into.

I'm heavy handed with the fluids as recommended by that nut:D that wrote "Zen the art of record cleaning made difficult." That being said, I have to allow at least three vacuum passes which of course increases the chance for static. This is the reason that I keep my Zerostat 3 next to the record cleaning machine. The fluids I use are; 1. Vinyl-Zyme Gold, 2. MFSL Super Deep Record Clearner, 3. MFSL Super Record Wash, and I finish with 4. VPI record cleaning fluid.

If the record is new I only use 5 squirts of the Vinyl-Zyme Gold vs. an older/used/untreated record which gets 10 squirts. Then the other fluids in the order listed above. I apply the Super Deep cleaner to the already wet with VZG after one minute then vacuum. Each fluid after that get vacuumed off before the next is applied.

Once a record has been cleaned, I place it in the MFSL Original Master Sleeves. When I go to play them again, I give each side a spin on the record cleaning machine using the VPI fluid. I clean each side just before playing.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that I got tired of just cleaning one record after another. I now decide what I am going to listen to lets say three records in a night and clean them as I go. At one point I had cleaned like 100 records in a day or two, screw that!!! I want to hear the music.

jm1

06-13-2007, 10:45 AM

I forgot to mention that I got tired of just cleaning one record after another. I now decide what I am going to listen to lets say three records in a night and clean them as I go. At one point I had cleaned like 100 records in a day or two, screw that!!! I want to hear the music.
Its funny you should mention this - I was planning on moving things around in the room in order to make the RCM accessible as I am not planning on any more marathon cleaning sessions. The last was 20 records. I can not imagine cleaning 100.

I am liberal with the cleaning solution and rinse but find two revolutions is sufficient to remove all the liquid.

shack

06-13-2007, 10:53 AM

Clean as you go. Sooner or later you will get them all clean. If you have a dirty album that you never listen to...so what?

hearingimpared

06-13-2007, 01:48 PM

I am liberal with the cleaning solution and rinse but find two revolutions is sufficient to remove all the liquid.

You're probably right. I go one more pass just to make sure. For VPI 16.5 users; I've noticed that when the velvet on the vacuum tube starts to wear, it takes more vacuum revolutions to dry the record.

Steve I learned "clean as you go" the hard way. When I first started cleaning the "mold archives," I was cleaning and restoring record after record and by the time it got time to listening, BEDTIME! I've found that it doesn't matter how long the mold is on the record as long as it is dry, it won't cause any damage and the VZG works just fine.

The biggest problem I face is that at least 45 to 50% of the records were sitting in the water caused by the flood long enough where it caused the cardboard jacket to bond, through the sleeve, to the record. Record after record I was able to get the bonded cardboard off and out of the grooves and the records looked mint. However when I played them, it sounded horrible.

On just moldy records the cleaning fluids I use work just fine.

jm1

06-13-2007, 02:24 PM

You're probably right. I go one more pass just to make sure. For VPI 16.5 users; I've noticed that when the velvet on the vacuum tube starts to wear, it takes more vacuum revolutions to dry the record.
Thanks for this tip; I will check the condition of the vacuum tube before cleaning. Next time I am at the local VPI dealer, I will get an extra.

jm1

06-20-2007, 09:08 AM

Until mid July, I will be using a minimalist configuration to listen to my records. Once I am satisfied adjusting the setup, I will report back with my findings on the sonic characteristics.

hearingimpared

06-20-2007, 11:26 AM

Until mid July, I will be using a minimalist configuration to listen to my records. Once I am satisfied adjusting the setup, I will report back with my findings on the sonic characteristics.

Wow an invisible platter and tonearm, it must sound incredibly transparent!:D

TroyD

06-20-2007, 12:47 PM

The tubes have a recommended life of about 200 lps, IIRC.

In the meantime, I clean mine with an old stylus brush.

BDT

hearingimpared

06-20-2007, 01:28 PM

The tubes have a recommended life of about 200 lps, IIRC.

In the meantime, I clean mine with an old stylus brush.

BDT

I use a stiff bristled toothbrush and I rinse it with record wash. I found that if I go the opposite direction of the tube's grain with the toothbrush, I get more use out of it. I am on my fifth tube.

jm1

08-01-2007, 02:57 PM

I have moved most of the LP storage into the listening room. There are now two shelves and four cabinets. It will be nice to have the LPs readily available for listening, but I am unsure I like having the shelves within the room as I do not know how it affects the room acoustics. From my brief listening sessions, all appears to be fine.

I am still waiting on the platter upgrade from VPI. If possible, I would highly recommend not dealing directly with VPI for TTs or parts, but one of the many retailers. The turnaround time with VPI is considerable.

Post #13 (http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showpost.php?p=589259&postcount=13) in this thread details what I use for cleaning records. I had found that the distilled water readily available I use for the rinse is not pure enough and leaves behind a residue. A national laboratory supply company finally has Type I water available for the Canadian market. I found a local laboratory supply retailer for this item and ordered a 4L container. I will now try this for the rinse cycle.

hearingimpared

08-01-2007, 06:46 PM

jm1

08-01-2007, 07:50 PM

I wanted to build oak shelves, but I was directed to unpack the boxes of records ASAP. So, I purchased the selves from Ikea (Expedit) for $99 each. These will do until I can custom build shelves. The only issue I have with these is that they are too deep. Ideally, I would like shelves to be 13” at most as this would not protrude too much into the room.

Yes, I have the guard in place as the TT is not active. I did not use the guard while the TT was active, but I may consider doing this until I get a cover that will protect the entire plinth. I have not had any problems placing/removing the guard when the cartridge is mounted.

The right side of the room was bare before the racks; only the tube traps were along the wall. The traps were rotated so that varying amounts of the diffusive side faced into the room. I might be worrying too much about any acoustical repercussions the shelves may introduce as there is not much I can do about it at this point.

marly421

08-04-2007, 11:07 AM

cmy330go

08-04-2007, 12:25 PM

....(you hate mongers need not PM me...just post your poison here for everyone to see) Marly

You may as well have said that the whole point of your pathetic, mindless post was to stir things up.

Look out everyone!! We've got a clever one on the loose!:rolleyes:

shack

08-04-2007, 01:57 PM

After reading through this tread I'm even more 'put off' by records, LP's and vinyl.

It's strictly an elitist endeavor. The cost is prohibited. The time needed is overwhelming to enjoy any provided benefit but I see NO benefit in the first place.

This is for older people who remember the old days and who can't or won't move on.

If you folks could really listen and hear this old school stuff, you would put this LP junk to bed. Of course you can't as your hearing has retreated to a point of your great, great grandpa's.

Maybe a private blog is where this LP kiss feast could be. But this 'my record is better than yours or better than your CD' is sickening and silly.

You old guys and gals (in age or spirit) need to find better uses of the precious time and money.

The little time you have left on this planet could be used to volunteer your efforts and money to the less fortunate. Now that's saying something.

Now let us click, pop and crackle off to better things.

(you hate mongers need not PM me...just post your poison here for everyone to see) Marly

What an IDIOT. Go crawl back in your hole where you came from. If you don't like vinyl fine...but this response was totally uncalled for. Based on this post I know for a fact there in nothing that you have to offer that would have even a shred of interest to me. The ignore list just gets longer and longer.

Is this a public enough response?

hearingimpared

08-04-2007, 02:05 PM

I would imagine that you will probably be commiting suicide before you get to the "older people" years because you won't be able to deal with some young idiot punk like yourself waving his ass at some people who want to share some really good stuff.

Hate mongering? You seem to have invented the word. Go back to you video games little boy.

engtaz

08-04-2007, 02:33 PM

Before these people speak bad of LP's, they should try listen to a CLEAN record on their newest setups to hear how it sound now. I personally had crap audio setups when I had a record player before. I can listen to LP's for hours with out be bothered by the music. I cannot last a 1/2 hour listening to CD and MP3's.

hearingimpared

08-04-2007, 02:53 PM

It will be nice to have the LPs readily available for listening, but I am unsure I like having the shelves within the room as I do not know how it affects the room acoustics. From my brief listening sessions, all appears to be fine.

I was checking out your pictures again and I was wondering if the tube traps where they are currently placed really makes a difference in the room acoustics.

TroyD

08-04-2007, 04:17 PM

It's strictly an elitist endeavor.

How do you figure?

The cost is prohibited.

First of all, moron....the correct phrase would be 'cost prohibitive'. Second, for reference level sound, I would agree. However, you can spin vinyl at a reasonable level for not a ton of coin. In fact, entry level players are a. very reasonable and b. offer a level of performance that entry level decks of the past couldn't compete with. However, you wouldn't know because you probably haven't done your homework.

The time needed is overwhelming to enjoy any provided benefit

I timed myself, it took me less than 45 seconds to clean an LP and get it spinning. About the same time it takes you to toss off in one of your mother's towels, I suppose. As some unfortunate girl is bound to inform you, that ISN'T a long time.

If you folks could really listen and hear this old school stuff, you would put this LP junk to bed. Of course you can't as your hearing has retreated to a point of your great, great grandpa's

Any time you'd like to compare or let others compare.....I'll bring my pile of shit and you can bring yours and well see who can really listen and hear.

I'd keep going but in the battle of wits, junior, you are competely unarmed and frankly, I'm getting bored.

Why don't you just run along now.

BDT

mulveling

08-04-2007, 04:56 PM

I'm 28, grew up on CDs, drink Bud Light, drive a Honda, and love vinyl's sound quality. There goes another stupid theory :rolleyes:

pearsall001

08-05-2007, 12:40 AM

I think that fellow joined the Polk forum by mistake. I believe he meant to join the BOSE forum. It's a shame he actually believes all the utter garbage that he posted. If he feel's that strongly about it...that's his decision. Just because others have a different opinion & enjoy a different format is what makes this hobby so fascinating. This fellow needs to come to grips with life in general. I think maybe he's a wee bit off upstairs!!!! :eek:

jm1

08-06-2007, 09:50 AM

I was checking out your pictures again and I was wondering if the tube traps where they are currently placed really makes a difference in the room acoustics.
Are you referring to the one between the LP shelves or the overall placement in general?

Yes they do. The tube traps are pressure differential devices and are placed in these areas. Refer to the thread I created on the subject. It also has links to several other sites with additional information.

hearingimpared

08-06-2007, 11:09 AM

Are you referring to the one between the LP shelves or the overall placement in general?

Yes they do. The tube traps are pressure differential devices and are placed in these areas. Refer to the thread I created on the subject. It also has links to several other sites with additional information.

Thanks and yes I was referring to the one between the LP shelves. At my local high end shop they are very big on the traps.

How was your get-a-way?

jm1

09-04-2007, 02:53 PM

engtaz

09-04-2007, 03:10 PM

Pretty

hearingimpared

09-04-2007, 03:29 PM

The major TT upgrades finally arrived and have been installed. At this time, I still can not use the TT as I require some unexpected additional pieces in order to use the new platter.

Looks impressive sitting on the table. Maybe one year I will be able to enjoy this thing and play some of the 2000 records I have.

I am dying to hear your impressions of the platter. I believe you can use VPI's periphery ring on that platter.

PS: if you find yourself not being able to listen to the 2000 records you have, I'll be glad to relieve you of them!:D

madmax

09-04-2007, 03:35 PM

Marly421. I hate this guy, I assume most people do. IMO he's hate filled, mean and an ugly person.
madmax

hearingimpared

09-04-2007, 04:11 PM

Marly421. I hate this guy, I assume most people do. IMO he's hate filled, mean and an ugly person.
madmax

He sure comes off that way.

jm1

09-04-2007, 06:46 PM

I am dying to hear your impressions of the platter. I believe you can use VPI's periphery ring on that platter.

PS: if you find yourself not being able to listen to the 2000 records you have, I'll be glad to relieve you of them!:D

Yes, the periphery ring works on this platter. I almost purchased one, but decided to hold off for now.

I will let you know what I think of the TT if I ever get it up and running. Its been so long I don't remember what a LP sounds like.

If you ever visit my house, you will be frisked at the door before you leave.

Keiko

09-04-2007, 07:08 PM

After reading through this tread I'm even more 'put off' by records, LP's and vinyl.

It's strictly an elitist endeavor. The cost is prohibited. The time needed is overwhelming to enjoy any provided benefit but I see NO benefit in the first place.

This is for older people who remember the old days and who can't or won't move on.

If you folks could really listen and hear this old school stuff, you would put this LP junk to bed. Of course you can't as your hearing has retreated to a point of your great, great grandpa's.

Maybe a private blog is where this LP kiss feast could be. But this 'my record is better than yours or better than your CD' is sickening and silly.

You old guys and gals (in age or spirit) need to find better uses of the precious time and money.

The little time you have left on this planet could be used to volunteer your efforts and money to the less fortunate. Now that's saying something.

Now let us click, pop and crackle off to better things.

(you hate mongers need not PM me...just post your poison here for everyone to see) Marly
Well, this speaks volumes. What's the weather on your planet like? :p

On the flip side...I myself personally enjoy this forum and all it has to offer. Reading thru posts, viewing the systems showcase of some really cool gear. Including but not limited to just the newest gadgets available today. I still like spinning records frequently and even popping in a cassette once in awhile. I like to acknowledge I'm even learning stuff since my discovery of CP. There's alot of cool and interesting people here too and it's been my sincere pleasure. It is unfortunate however having to be subjected to this sort of shallow minded mentality.

hearingimpared

09-04-2007, 09:16 PM

If you ever visit my house, you will be frisked at the door before you leave.

While you're frisking me, I'll have Sal back the truck up to your back door and start loading the LPs!:eek: :D :p

jm1

09-21-2007, 08:47 PM

After three months, I still don't have all the correct parts to complete the turntable upgrade. I am waiting on a new motor pulley as the Scout platter is 11.55" diameter and the new platter is 12.25" diameter. The current 300 RPM motor pulley will not spin the platter at full speed. Everything sounds sssssssloooooooowwwww........

So, I improvised and made the the existing motor pulley larger by adding masking tape. Goofy, but it works. What an experience this has been.

The LP storage problem was solved for several weeks. Now there are over five boxes of LPs requiring a home WITHIN MY ROOM. I guess this will be a cyclical problem.

hearingimpared

09-21-2007, 09:11 PM

jm1

10-02-2007, 01:20 PM

The upgrade process for the Scout has taken over three months and required three separate parts mailings from VPI. All the necessary parts have finally arrived and are installed on the table.

The standard Scout is an excellent turntable. I started with a Dynavector 10x5 cartridge and was content with the results. Wanting more now that I had a taste, I decide to continue along the path with the Scout.

A ZYX cartridge was a significant addition to the Scout. I also added the 300 RPM motor upgrade at this time.

The one comment I have for Scout owners is don’t be afraid of placing a several thousand dollar cartridge on the tonearm. The JMW-9 will embrace the cartridge and reward you with improved sonics from your LPs. As with any tonearm, ensure the cartridge/tonearm are compatible.

The addition of the JMW-9 Signature tonearm and Super Platter has taken the Scout to an entirely different level. All performance characteristics have been improved on. There is more detail and texture within the music. The leading transient and subsequent decays make the music much more believable. Bass has better pitch and definition while the midrange and beyond is smooth as silk.

Some commented it may not be a good idea to spend much money upgrading the Scout and a more expensive table would be the wiser choice. Having been through the changes, I can say without a doubt I have no regrets upgrading this table. The final results speak volumes for themselves.

Any changes from this point forward will be additions to the table. The new platter can accept the periphery ring clamp to hold down records. This would allow me to flatten all but the most stubborn records. As much as I would like to flatten down the records, an electronic speed controller may be the next addition to the TT as this would allow me to make a minor change to very significantly improve the sonic characteristics.

JM

hearingimpared

10-02-2007, 05:40 PM

Great write up John I know you've done a lot of work and tinkering to acheive the level of performance you have and exhibited lots of patience with VPI. When I was looking to improve on my HW 19 MK II, which had the SME V and Dynavector 10 X 5 on it, I was advised to go for a higher end cartridge. But I felt I needed to get more solid performance out of the turntable first. The purchase of an HW 19 Mk IV with the TNT platter, SAMA motor, TNT plinth and sub plinth improved the sound by leaps and bounds mainly in lower noise floor and the extended bass, ticks, pops and surface noise were reduced in volume. Once I achieved that level, I then added a VPI power line conditioner with 33 1/3 & 45 rpm variable transformers . . . needless to say the PITCH is perfect. After that, the next and best move I've made thus far is to purchase the ZYX cartridges. What a breathtaking improvement it is.

On your cue I've started messing around with the belt. I've always hated the belts that required powder to make them perform properly. With a high gloss black plinth and a black platter top it is virtually impossible to keep the powder from showing as little dust spots. I hate the white belt, it is a piece of junk. I've a few bags of the powder that VPI provides with their belts. I have to keep reapplying the powder every four or five plays. I've also noticed that these belts although they are supposed to be better at vibration isolation than the prior HW 19 black belts, they don't last as long. I've been through two belts since I've purchased this platter. I appreciate the research you've done on belts and their alternative. I've written to VPI to find out if there is a different or better belt I can us.

I think the next most important thing I think you can do to improve your Scout is to purchase a better clamp. Screw down clamps just don't cut it in my book and they have no mass to help kill the resounance, stylus charged energy and airborn vibration.

wingnut4772

10-02-2007, 05:50 PM

...powder?:confused:

jm1

10-02-2007, 06:57 PM

...powder?:confused:

I am glad to see you have the black belt. On a side note, if anyone has the clear belt, I would suggest replacing it with a black one from VPI.

The powder is used to lubricate the belt so it does not pinch or grab in the pulley and platter tracks.

- clean your belt using alcohol
- clean the pulley and platter edges (Q-tip dipped in alcohol touched to the pulley while running and glass cleaner on the platter)
- place the belt in a plastic bag along with talcum power (baby power works)
- shake the bag to entirely coat the belt
- remove the belt from the bag and shake the excess power off (outside)
- install the belt.

If you use a resealable plastic bag, you can reuse the power the next time you lubricate the belt.

hearingimpared

10-02-2007, 07:31 PM

I am glad to see you have the black belt. On a side note, if anyone has the clear belt, I would suggest replacing it with a black one from VPI.

The powder is used to lubricate the belt so it does not pinch or grab in the pulley and platter tracks.

- clean your belt with a mild detergent solution and let dry
- clean the pulley and platter edges (I use isopropyl alcohol on the pulley and windex on the platter)
- place the belt in a plastic bag along with talcum power (baby power works)
- shake the bag to entirely coat the belt
- remove the belt from the bag and shake the excess power off (outside)
- install the belt.

If you use a resealable plastic bag, you can reuse the power the next time you lubricate the belt.

I was afraid to use alcohol on the motor spindle so I took a bunch of long wood swabs and increased the speed of the motor to very fast and kept alternating swab side with stick side. It seemed to get all the gunked up powder off the spindle.

BTW Make sure the Windex you use is just plain old Windex not the stuff that stays put or has a fragrance as they leave residue and once on the LP is very difficult to disolve. . . it's almost as bad as getting silicone on the record. . . bad news.

jm1

10-02-2007, 08:17 PM

BTW Make sure the Windex you use is just plain old Windex not the stuff that stays put or has a fragrance as they leave residue and once on the LP is very difficult to disolve. . . it's almost as bad as getting silicone on the record. . . bad news.

Never knew there were different types of Windex. I use the good old plain stuff. Thanks for the heads up.

wingnut4772

10-02-2007, 08:41 PM

hearingimpared

10-02-2007, 08:49 PM

Never knew there were different types of Windex. I use the good old plain stuff. Thanks for the heads up.

Just like every thing else, and this trend was started with beer, there are 450,000 varieties of each product made these days. Remember when you could get Colgate or Crest toothpaste? Now you have to look though four shelves for each brand to find a flavor or one that whitens or one that cleans tartar, all this ad nauseum.

shack

10-02-2007, 08:55 PM

Do I really have to do this? What happens if I don't? (as I start to rebel:p )

To some here on the forum the word "excessive" doesn't even come close to decribing their audio "routines". Ignore them...you will be better for it. ;)

jm1

11-02-2007, 05:05 PM

Maple and slate isolation platforms have been added to the dedicated stand for the TT and SAMA (Stand-Alone Motor Assembly).

The maple platform was placed on the top of the solid oak end table and is isolated by appropriately sized (calculated) Sorbothane feet. The SAMA has been positioned on a piece of slate isolated from the maple platform by sized Sorbothane feet. The TT plinth feet sit on metal footers which sit on oak footers. The oak footers were used to raise the TT plinth to a level matching the SAMA height.

The tonearm and TT IC cables were burned-in for 406 hours as they were taking on a dark characteristic after some LP playback time. If you care to know, this was required as I was ready to return the Signature tonearm (Nordost Valhalla tonearm wire) to have it rewired with the standard VPI wire.

This completes the basic setup. The upgrades and optimizations completed this past year has been an extremely worthwhile exercise and have allowed the Scout to achieve a surprisingly high level of refinement. I can now rest and enjoy some “excessive” audio “routines”.

hearingimpared

11-02-2007, 07:41 PM

To some here on the forum the word "excessive" doesn't even come close to decribing their audio "routines". Ignore them...you will be better for it. ;)

Heeeeeyyyyy I resemble that remark!:D:p

hearingimpared

11-02-2007, 07:44 PM

speakergeek

11-02-2007, 07:49 PM

Very nice set-up!:cool:

reeltrouble1

11-02-2007, 11:47 PM

i would recommend burning everything in for 407 hours........

enjoy.....

RT1

treitz3

11-03-2007, 12:16 AM

Oh come on now! Are we gonna have to start a new debate on how many hours to burn in? I was gonna say to burn it in for 408 hours! It's on! :eek: :p :D

hearingimpared

11-03-2007, 12:18 AM

Listen I have so many new things to burn-in that I'll be 80 years old when they are all burned in!!!

treitz3

11-03-2007, 12:20 AM

Hehe. Congrat's on the TT jm1. Enjoy!

jm1

11-03-2007, 01:48 AM

Listen I have so many new things to burn-in that I'll be 80 years old when they are all burned in!!!

I'll make it substantially quicker for you and send some matches.

hearingimpared

11-03-2007, 02:17 AM

I'll make it substantially quicker for you and send some matches.

Ha ha ha guess what Bro???? The big new toy is being delivered tomorrow, me so excited I could just bust! I will be receiving the MC step - up transformer Monday but I'm still going to run the Spectral phono stage through the new toy!!!:D;):cool:

SCompRacer

11-03-2007, 02:21 AM

The big new toy is being delivered tomorrow....

Let me guess.....something like a view or prospect?:D :cool:

hearingimpared

11-03-2007, 02:31 AM

Three something!

jm1

01-18-2008, 02:37 PM

In a prior post, I eluded to the necessity of adding an electronic speed controller in order to implement a minor change to improve the sonic characteristics of the table. I now have a PS Audio P300 power plant to provide extremely accurate and stable power for the SAMA. The P300 also has a SINE mode which allows the user to vary the line voltage and frequency.

The image focus has improved and offers up new levels of detail. Music is more dynamic with added tautness in the lower octaves. Overall, the cumulative improvements help to create a more realistic experience.

Varying the frequency of the output from the P300 allows me to change the motor RPM. The motor pulley and supplied belt is optimized to rotate the platter at the correct speed at a 60Hz line frequency. Using thread based belts without electronic speed regulation will not rotate the platter at full speed.

I have been trying many different materials as a drive belt. The ones I consistently return to are silk thread and (Spiderwire) mono-filament fishing line. The thread based belt increases the isolation between the platter and motor further lowering the noise floor. More details are present now that the background noise has been lowered. Sounds literally materialize from nowhere and vanish without a trace. The results are quite intoxicating and I can’t get enough.

An acquaintance had lent me a pristine copy of a MFSL 1/2 Speed Mastered Pink Floyd DSOTM LP. I played this LP concurrently along with a digital mastered CD through my Museatex Bitstream DAC. I found the CD playback to be completely unlistenable in direct comparison to the LP. The CD did not have the precise focus of the LP as well as sounding grainy, noisy and harsh. I have experienced and understood the term grainy, but never to this magnitude.

About the only thing left for the Scout is a ring clamp (and matching center weight?). Later this year, I may also move up the ZYX line and get the Airy 3 or an Atmos.

I now hear why I was gently guided toward the path I have taken during this upgrade process. The Scout is capable of much more than many could ever imagine.

hearingimpared

01-18-2008, 07:12 PM

Awesome stuff John. Email coming.

jm1

02-14-2008, 03:06 PM

The intent of this post is to inform Scout owners of the challenges I encountered when upgrading to the Super Platter.

After having a taste of vinyl and wanting additional refinement from the TT setup, I decided to pursue the upgrade path for the Scout TT instead of purchasing a different table. This post specifically illustrates the issues I encountered when configuring the Scout to use the Super Platter.

Prior to the Super Platter installation, the 300 RPM motor upgrade had been installed for use with the 11.55” diameter platter.

Scout Platter

The standard Scout platter is machined from a 12” x 12” piece of acrylic to an 11.55” diameter and has a height of 1 3/8”. This platter is only used on the Scout TT.

Super platter

The TNT platter (used on all current non-Scout TTs) and the non HR-X Super Platter are 12 1/4” in diameter with a height of 1 3/4”. The size difference is significant when compared to the standard Scout platter in several ways and will be discussed below.

600 RPM Motor

The standard motor provided with the Scout SAMA (Stand Alone Motor Assembly) is a 12-pole, 600 RPM unit. The Scout is the only current TT using this motor. The pulley provided with the 600 RPM motor is optimized for use with the 11.55” diameter Scout platter. I am not aware of a motor pulley for use with the larger 12 1/4” diameter platters.

300 RPM Motor

The 24-pole 300 RPM motor is used on all current non-Scout single motor, single motor flywheel, dual motor flywheel and dual motor rim drive SAMA units.

There is an upgrade path for the Scout to replace the 600 RPM motor with a 300 RPM motor. This upgrade includes the motor, capacitor and a new pulley optimized for the 11.55” diameter platter. I would recommend this upgrade regardless.

JMW-9 Tonearm

The Scout, SM (Scoutmaster) and SSM (Super Scoutmaster) series TTs include the JMW-9 tonearm. When the tonearm base is mounted directly on the plinth, the arm wand will be at the correct height when used with the 1 3/8” high platter.

The SM and SSM use the 1 3/4” high platter. In order to span the additional 3/8” height difference between the two platters heights, a 3/8” riser is installed between the plinth and tonearm base.

Method (or Madness)

The Super Platter upgrade is designed to be a simple operation taking several minutes to install. While the physical installation of the Super Platter was easy to complete, the Scout requires several additional pieces in order to be properly configured. This is not mentioned in any literature and the required parts are not referred to nor included even when the Scout plinth is specified as the upgrade platform.

The installation of the Super Platter on the Scout requires a 1” Delrin washer. Some sites mention this. This is required as the Super Platter bearing can not be installed on the Scout plinth without this. This one is a show stopper.

The Scout 600 RPM motor pulley is optimized for the Scout 11.55” diameter platter. If you upgraded to the 300 RPM motor with the Scout 11.55” diameter platter, you will be provided with a motor pulley optimized for the 11.55” diameter platter.

When a 12 1/4” diameter platter is installed, the 600 or 300 RPM motor pulleys optimized for the 11.55” diameter platter will not rotate the 12 1/4” diameter platter to the correct speed; the platter will always rotate slower than the desired RPM.

The 300 RPM motor has two pulleys available; one for the 11.55” platter and one for the 12 1/4” platter. If you previously had the 11.55” Scout platter with the 300 RPM motor, you will need the “SM 300 RPM motor pulley”. This motor pulley has a larger diameter in order to rotate the platter to the correct speed.

If you have the 600 RPM motor, I am not sure if there is another pulley available for the 12 1/4” platter. You will need to contact VPI to inquire about this. If no other pulley is available, you will need to move to the 300 RPM motor (which I would recommend).

The Super Platter (1 3/4”) is 3/8” taller than the Scout (1 3/8”) high platter. You will require the 3/8” riser that is standard issue on the SM and SSM TTs. VPI tried to tell me the JMW-9 will work with the 1 3/4” high platters without the riser. Not! I asked VPI why they put the riser on the SM and SSM TTs if the tonearm works without the riser. A riser was sent in the mail. Please specify you want three longer screws when you request the riser.

The 3/8” riser also includes a platform for the junction box. Remove the junction box from the Scout plinth. The junction box platform installs between the riser and the tonearm base. The junction box then mounts to this platform and keeps the junction box and tonearm at the same relative height.

Closing Thoughts

There is a lot of measurement information in this post and may be somewhat confusing the first (and subsequent) readings. If you believe there are any errors in the provided information, please PM me including the text in question. I will review the information and correct or clarify the post as required. This will make following the upgrade process easier for future reference.

Upgrading to the Super Platter on the Scout TT is a somewhat undocumented process. Now that all the pieces of the process have been identified, the installation should be straight forward. Most of the frustration with the installation was determining that additional parts were necessary and waiting for the mailing to arrive.

TroyD

02-14-2008, 04:13 PM

I'm interested in your thoughts on the new platter. I queried Steve at Quest for Sound as I'm about to pull the trigger on the Scout Master, he said with the SM, it doesn't represent a great return on investment but I wonder with the Scout if it's a different story.

Not trying to poke a hole at the platter, mind you, the TNT platter upgrade on the HW-19 was a HUGE plus.

BDT

jm1

02-14-2008, 08:34 PM

I performed a concurrent upgrade of the Signature tonearm and the Super Platter. It was not possible to isolate the individual characteristics of either due to timing.

The following comments regarding the results of the upgrade are buried within this thread :

The addition of the JMW-9 Signature tonearm and Super Platter has taken the Scout to an entirely different level. All performance characteristics have been improved on. There is more detail and texture within the music. The leading transient and subsequent decays make the music much more believable. Bass has better pitch and definition while the midrange and beyond is smooth as silk.

I have only played with a SM Signature once at a dealer’s showroom with a different cartridge, phono stage and system in a different acoustical environment so I am not overly familiar with its sonic characteristics.

I would check on some of the analog/vinyl forums for SM or SSM owners who upgraded to the Super Platter. IIRC, there were definite performance improvements across the range of TTs. I just can't see performance gains being significant to only the Scout and not all other TTs in their catalog.

PS. I would go with the Signature arm as it has the fine VTF adjustment in the rear stem of the tonearm. This makes dialing in the sound much easier and more precise. The standard arm uses the movement of the counter weight to adjust both VTF and azimuth concurrently. The fine VTF allowed me to really dial in the ZYX cartridge. I will never again buy a tonearm without an independent fine VTF adjustment.

hearingimpared

02-14-2008, 09:06 PM

It is my experience with platters upgrades that the combination of materials, impededance matching and and density all play a significant factor in the improvement of both the staibility/imaging and and bass response of the overall turntable performmance. Unless, a company uses a a complete mismatch of matterials and doesn't take into consideration the the reflective nature of the material involved then it is damned near impossible to screw up the improvements of the a 1 inch thick plus piece of solid or composite materail.

jm1

03-17-2008, 12:35 AM

These are some methods I have been using to optimize the performance of my TT. I hope that others can use or adapt these techniques to configure and refine the performance of any TT.

TT Belt

After experimenting with various materials as a belt for the platter, I have always returned to silk thread. This material provides the isolation I seek with sufficient static gripping force for platter startup and maintaining proper rotational speed. The VPI issued belt has been placed in storage as a quick backup if required.

Please refer to post 111 in this thread for more information.

Azimuth

To set the azimuth on a unipivot tonearm, it is recommended to place a light straight object such as a coffee stir stick on top of the headshell and use this as a guide. The problem I have with this is in order to get a true reading, you need to place the center of the straight object at the center of balance of the headshell. If you do not get the two center points lined up, there will be unequal weight between the two sides.

I have been using an alternate method of setting azimuth. I have a stylus brush which is enclosed in its own wooden case. On a stationary old LP, the case is placed in front of the tonearm with the stylus lowered on the LP playing surface. Ensure the stylus case is exactly parallel to the front of the cartridge, but not touching so not to impede the tonearm balance.

By looking directly at the front of the tonearm, you can determine if the azimuth is set correct by lining up the top of the wooden stylus case with the top of the cartridge or headshell. This has produced the best consistent and easy results for setting the azimuth. The final small adjustment is made by listening.

Please refer to the attached pictures for a visual presentation.

Anti-Skate

I have been playing with the tonearm configuration for some time to fully understand its characteristics. While VPI does not endorse the use of the mechanical anti-skate mechanism, I have found in my setup that performance is significantly enhanced when using this device.

Another method VPI recommend is to place an additional twist to the tonearm wire before connecting to the junction box. At this point, I prefer not to put any additional twists to the Nordost Valhalla tonearm wire.

The attached pictures show the amount of anti-skate I found to work best within my system.

jm1

06-05-2008, 03:12 PM

I have mentioned in my prior ramblings that one day I would like to add the VPI Periphery Ring Clamp to my configuration. I have read this clamp provides additional sonic benefits. That day has finally arrived as the clamp is now in active duty on the Scout.

The clamp is described as:

‘A massive ring designed to sit just outside the lead-in groove, the Periphery Ring Clamp's weight flattens the record onto the platter, eliminating edge warps and more completely coupling the record to the platter.’

The word ‘massive’ should not be discounted nor ignored as I was surprised at the weight of the ring. It really is heavy and should flatten all but the most stubborn LPs.

The ring fits around the outside of the platter and has a ridge on the inside which rests on the outer edge of the LP. The ring is centered by the platter so there are no issues with it ever being off-center. The weight of the ring flattens and couples the outer portion of the LP to the platter. I am using the reflex clamp without the center spindle washer as a center weight to complete the coupling of the LP to the platter. The additional mass around the outside of the platter further improves rotational speed stability.

It was immediately apparent there were significant sonic benefits to tightly coupling the LP to the platter. There is a significant improvement to the depth, weight and tautness of the low frequencies. The mid and upper frequencies are more refined and detailed than I could have hoped for.

I have also noticed a significant increase in the overall clarity and placement of the spatial images along with an increase to depth and layering of the soundstage. I also find there is more ambient information being retrieved which further recreates the illusion live performances. The background noise has also been reduced for some reason??

Had I any indication of what the results would be when adding the ring clamp to this lowly but tricked-out Scout, I would have acquired one earlier. I just can’t believe what I have been missing since upgrading to the super platter which is capable of accepting the clamp. Doh!

The only risk of using the ring clamp I can see at this time is you need to be attentive where you place the needle on the lead in groves. With proper placement during this critical phase, I don’t foresee any future issues.

Herein ends the journey of this Scout.

It has been an interesting experience moving through the various stages outlined in the thread. With approximately 5000ish LPs in and around (literally) the house, I have decided to up the stakes in the analog realm. A VPI Aries TT with a JMW-10.5i tonearm and SDS are in transit as I write. The best of both TTs will be combined and replace current configuration.

Once this process has been completed, the next phase should be to move up to a ZYX Airy 3 or Atmos cartridge. Then …

…
Yeah, this beat goes on

And on, and on, and on
…

JM

DarqueKnight

06-05-2008, 03:19 PM

JM,

Does VPI suggest a belt or motor upgrade to accommodate the additional weight or were the motor and belt designed with the use of the ring in mind?

hearingimpared

06-05-2008, 09:17 PM

John,

Just curious. If you don't use the shim under the reflex clamp to push down on the outer perimeter of the record label won't the perphery clamp cause the LP to bow upwards in the middle tracks?

jm1

06-06-2008, 04:06 PM

DK,

There is no upgrade necessary for the motor or belt when using the periphery ring clamp. The only motor upgrade I would like to perform is to the single motor flywheel unit. I will see how the new setup performs before any further changes.

Joe,

There isn’t enough clamping force exerted by the periphery clamp to cause distortions to the center tracks. It only exerts enough vertical pressure to remove or reduce warps and couple the LP to the platter. The center weight, or in my case, the standard clamp, is only tightened enough to couple the LP against the platter.

hearingimpared

06-06-2008, 11:52 PM

I'm still afraid of the thing. My hands aren't as steady as they once were and I can see the stylus of my Airy 3 getting ripped out by the roots.:eek:

Besides with my clamp and being part of the record flattener consortium I really don't need it. :D;)

I'm glad it is working out for you.:)

jm1

09-05-2008, 08:16 PM

It has been an interesting experience moving through the various stages outlined in the thread. With approximately 5000ish LPs in and around (literally) the house, I have decided to up the stakes in the analog realm. A VPI Aries TT with a JMW-10.5i tonearm and SDS are in transit as I write. The best of both TTs will be combined and replace current configuration.

Previously I had posted that I had purchased a VPI Aries TT with the JMW-10.5i tonearm and SDS. Unfortunately, the Audiogon seller decided to defraud me before the items were even shipped and ended up sending something other than these items.

It has taken three months to unwind the transaction. I have paid return shipping and duty on items and have nothing tangible to show for my efforts.

The seller shipped with UPS and the TT plinth incurred damage while in transit due to shoddy packing. The seller did not realize he had legal possession of the package when he refused to accept receipt of the damaged package back from UPS once claim was rejected. In the end, the TT/tonearm package was flagged as abandoned and destroyed. Now the seller does not have the TT/tonearm.

I fail to understand why someone would try to take this course of action as it only hurts both parties.

At this point, I think I may just hold tight as this configuration provides exceptional results.

To all who order online, make sure you document everything. And I mean everything. Take screen snapshots and persist in some format for future reference. I used MS Word documents. You may also want to brush up on your rights as a consumer and any user agreements with any third party transaction companies. This is important.