Perfect example of why we are losing fidelity.

[ledhed]

Thought a lot of you guys would find this interesting. I read an article dealing with this a few years ago but this makes it much more clear...

A short video showing one of the major problems of the record industry.
<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/3Gmex_4hreQ"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/3Gmex_4hreQ" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gmex_4hreQ


Some more links and information can be found here: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=120637

[TennesseeOutlaw]

That was very interesting.. I really have never noticed that in my music, but Ill put some old and new cd's to the test..

Josh

[SLOCOOKN]

Try old VS new Van Halen...

[shack]

I've been saying for years that current music is produced "too hot". Too much and overbloated bass. Same for percussion.

[TennesseeOutlaw]

Though I listen mainly to very "bass heavy" music, I would much rather have it played as it was recorded.. Although, Id say most of the bass in my type of music was produced by some beat machine; nonetheless, music should be presented the way it was intended... Why do they do this in the first place?

[markmarc]

A bigger problem was pointed out in a recent Stereophile editorial column. Some recording session are compressed from the studio before being sent to headquarters and then off to the factory. The end result is mp3 rather than AAC sound quality. The musicians need to stand up and demand that the original master be transferred in a non-compressed state along each point.

[Early B.]

It's ironic that many musicians don't even know what sounds good.

I think this post is mostly referring to redbook CDs (although many jazz redbooks sound pretty decent). The better (i.e., more transparent) your system becomes, the more you'll likely seek out well recorded music.

[ninerbj]

A very good example of this would be the last Rush album, Vapor Trails.
It was mastered so hot that it's almost impossible to distinguish who is playing what at times.

This all was started to get ones song noticed on the radio by bumping it hotter than the others. Unfortunately, every record company followed suit.

[jdhdiggs]

My brother is currently working both as a musician and a studio producer. I asked him about this and he said that they need to do it to compete and that "loud rules" when it comes to sales. In fact, they do their final master on a POS boombox since that is what a large protion of their audience will be playing it on.

[jkn]

This topic has been floating around the musician focused forums I've hung around for several years now. Rush's Vapor Trails is a great example - someone has an article that goes into detail on that album (I probably have it tucked away at home somewhere). I picked up Nirvana's compilation a year or so ago and almost can't stand listening to the "remastered" versions...

I've read a number of articles on the overuse of compression and the trend towards always louder is always better (ha) - compounding the over-compression problem is radio stations typically compress their signal to smooth things out - making everything amazingly worse. Of course, at one point in the past this wasn't a problem since all recordings weren't already pushed to the wall.

Lack of dymanics, depth, etc... it's very frustrating. And well mastered albums almost can't compete anymore with people who don't appreciate that type of thing - it just sounds too "quiet" to them.


A very good article by Bob Kats on compression is here:

http://www.digido.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=7

[bikezappa]

Music has only two real dimensions
1. Amplitude (Loudness)
2. Frequency (Highs and lows)

This compression or making all the music recorded at the same loudness level sucks. It takes most of emotion and drama out of the music. FM stations have been compressing music for many years because more people will hear the station if it is compressed and played loud. If your in your car and the FM station is playing classical music with a quiet section you may miss hearing it and turn to another station playing compressed loud music. It's about maximizing FM distance range and it makes music suck.

It appears that compressed music is all about the money and not about the quality or emotion in music because it is being taken out. As a musician if you music is not compressed and loud you don't get recorded or played on FM because it has less chance of being sold or heard. Remember that most people wouldn't know good recorded music if it bit them in the ass.

Don't buy these crap CDs and don't listen to comressed FM. The only uncompressed FM that is left is music on NPR stations that play classical, folk and jazz.

We are all circling the drain.

[shack]

One of the reasons I quit listening to FM was due to the local "remix" of music. Stations seemed to think it was cool to add additional material to a track (usually bass or percussion). It made it unlistenable IMO. I buy very little current music because I never hear anything I like (at least not over the airvwaves). XM is the only souce of airplay music I hear and very little of it could be considered "current".

[Lsi9]

I like to listen to Rock, perhaps my fav, but I don't listen to it on the stereo ...for this I prefer Jazz and now classical. I just purchased 2 cds; Mozart's complete requiem and Chopin's Complete Nocturnes. Another type of music I like is African but this genre intermittently suffers from compression. Its not hard to hear.

[Midnite Mick]

My brother is currently working both as a musician and a studio producer. I asked him about this and he said that they need to do it to compete and that "loud rules" when it comes to sales. In fact, they do their final master on a POS boombox since that is what a large protion of their audience will be playing it on.

The problem that I see with this is the people playing the music on the POS boomboxes don't buy cd's anyway. I find this a bit wrong in that the people that don''t really care about sound quality are the people that would be downloading everything for free, thus no revenue from the product. I think if one is to produce a cd that is of the best quality possible, maybe more people that care about it would buy it.

I know I listen to music now that I would have never listened to prior to buliding my system just because I can now see the beauty in it.

Just my .02
Mike

[jdhdiggs]

POS boomboxes don't have AV ins for I-pods though... The fact of the matter is most people DON't care about GOOD sound, they just care if it makes a noise and they can bop their heads to it. They do their recording tracks through $20K studio monitors, but the boom box is the final test. It is sad....

[Midnite Mick]

They still play most downloadable formats, burnt to cd....including mp3.
Yes it is very sad. Hopefully, the future will change.

Mike

[unc2701]

This is actually one of the reasons why LP's sound better- if you try to cut an LP compressed w/ everything hot it goes completely to shit and it's unacceptably bad (although, I have heard some recent LPs where they did do this). On the other hand, any jackass can burn a CD that's compressed all to hell.

The industry trends make CDs sound a lot worse than their full potential.

[danger boy]

this is really sad. that in todays amazing technology advances.. and how far we've come in recorded music in the past 40 yrs since the Beatles took the world by storm.. and we're compressing music so much that this is the best we can do. WTF?

Did recorded music peak in the 70's and early 80's then? It seems for the most part the past 10 yrs with consumers preferring personal audio being a MP3 player.. that we've lost the battle for good hi fidelity. Sad, really sad.

[WilliamM2]

I like to listen to Rock, perhaps my fav, but I don't listen to it on the stereo ...for this I prefer Jazz and now classical.

Just curious, If rock is your favorite, why not listen to it on the stereo?

[Midnite Mick]

Kind of ironic but the better your stereo gets the worse poorly recorded cd's sound.

Mike

[Lsi9]

Just curious, If rock is your favorite, why not listen to it on the stereo?


I tend to listen to rock in the car or on the ipod when using piublic transportation. There are certain cds that I can listen to on the stereo though.

[wingnut4772]

I thought U2's Vertigo album sounded pretty bad - not the music- but the cd sound quality. I wonder if that's just me or if it was also recorded too hot.

[Refefer]

I wasn't aware of this, but it really explains a lot of the reasons that since I built my two channel I've shyed away from Rock music to Classical and Acoustic sessions. In Acoustic sessions, I've found that they tend to do a fairly decent of recording the music without it being "hot". I mean, there's no damn point to recording it hot. As for classical, that would kinda defeat the purpose.

I always knew there was a reason I hated listening to newer Rock on my system, and now I know why I've found it to sound like crap.

It also explains why Bob Dylan was so pissed at the recording industry's recording standards these days.

This is damn scary. I want my audio back!

[Refefer]

Here's a link to the Bob Dylan interview: http://www.rollingstone.com/rockdaily/index.php/2006/08/22/bob-dylan-professional-rabblerouser/

[WilliamM2]

I can't imagine not listening to rock, just because the recording doesn't sound as good as jazz or classical.

Although there are some CD's I prefer, for the quality of the recording, it's the music that matters. Or maybe I am just lucky, I have about 400 CD's, and probably purchased at least 300 of them prior to 1992 or so. Maybe they are better than what is available now.

[ben62670]

Sounds like a marketing ploy to get us to buy SACD's so we can get the quality we used to get in regular Cd's

[hearingimpared]

Music has only two real dimensions
1. Amplitude (Loudness)
2. Frequency (Highs and lows)

The only uncompressed FM that is left is music on NPR stations that play classical, folk and jazz.

We are all circling the drain.

NPR Philly/Wilmington 90.1 FM They play awesome jazz and classical. They even play old, Old, OLD LPs that are scratched and noisy but the music and performances are incredible.

[ledhed]

Sounds like a marketing ploy to get us to buy SACD's so we can get the quality we used to get in regular Cd's

If only, a real ploy would have ALL the Cds I want in SACD.

Also, if you found the perfect reference level, the recording shouldn't be as bad right? Just way too loud to stand probably.

[bikezappa]

NPR Philly/Wilmington 90.1 FM They play awesome jazz and classical. They even play old, Old, OLD LPs that are scratched and noisy but the music and performances are incredible.

In Bosten WGBH plays LIVE jazz in the evenings sometimes and the BSO live on Friday afternoon. You would be amazed at how good the music sounds uncompressed with a good FM tuna and antenna. They play records and it's fun to hear the scratches and pops with the large dynamic range.

These stations I fear will go the way of the dotto bird if we don't support music playing NPR stations. Some of the local college stations play interesting music but the quality of the sound is hit or miss.

I was listening to a local FM rock station at home and they played a great old Beatles tune. I went over and turned it up and it was nothing like the original recording. There were NO dynamics in it. I turned it off. Sad. But maybe they broadcasted this crap to a larger area.

The problem is that FM is compressed and marketed for car only.

[petrym]

I listened some of my daughter's stuff recently and it was so overdone I couldn't listen to it for more than 30 seconds. Back it off you "sound engineers"!

[disneyjoe7]

Is this problem industry wide, ok is just Rock or isn't everything Rock, Country, Jazz? I find this subject interesting due to the fact I have some CD's that sound great others that sound like shit. Sad the ones that sound the best to me are older Rock or newer Country.

[jkn]

It's been a trend for the last decade, I doubt this trend will end anytime soon - especially as music is migrating to mp3 more and more.

The power of the radio station makes a big difference - ironically, for a brief time here there was a station playing mp3's on a fairly weak tower. Sound quality was awful - however, the fact they'd play almost anything made it fun to listen to over the more powerful, but bland repetitive stations. Of course, this station got replaced - and it looks like it was really only a placeholder station anyway while they were rearranging the market.

I know I don't need to say it - but remember that people on this forum have a much higher interest in quality than most people.

I prefer the best sound I can get balanced with convenience and variety - if I really want to "hear" something - I turn on my Mackie's or my AKG phones - however, reality says I spend most of my day at work (listening to cd's on a boombox) and in the car... :-)

We're in the process of looking at speakers for our living room - I can't wait to have decent music out there again!

[zombie boy 2000]

I was listening to some old Johnny Cash recordings last night and I realized something.... wow, slam, and loudness may not be oozing from the speakers, but once your ears grow accustomed to the softer textures -- you begin to realize just how deeply layered the music is.
It doesn't necessarily grab your intention at first, but if you're willing to invest even the slightest amount of effort into really focusing on the music, it becomes a vivid, three-dimensional, organic experience.

It's there and all the more satisfying... you can save your infinite pings and tuneless bass for the Best Buy/Ipod crowd.

[shack]

I was listening to some old Johnny Cash recordings last night and I realized something.... wow, slam, and loudness may not be oozing from the speakers, but once your ears grow accustomed to the softer textures -- you begin to realize just how deeply layered the music is.
It doesn't necessarily grab your intention at first, but if you're willing to invest even the slightest amount of effort into really focusing on the music, it becomes a vivid, three-dimensional, organic experience.
Ironic as well, last night I was listening to Jimi Hendrix, "Band of Gypsys". On the first track "Who Knows", at one point you can hear Buddy Miles literally whispering while still hearing the faint bass of Billy Cox in the background. I know this was a live album but the dynamic range was fantastic and clear as a bell. I can't remember any rock albums of late that pull this off.

[zombie boy 2000]

That's what I'm talking about... it's not about superimposing "crystal-clear" instruments on top of each other to fabricate a performance. It's about the whole -- the subtle cues that may not impress the neighbors, but breathe life into a recording nonetheless.

[bikezappa]

Only amplitude and frequency make music.

Take away amplitude or make it all the same level and you have shit.

[unc2701]

I've got a Pixies vinyl pressing done off the original tapes and you can actually hear where the tape bled through adjacent sections on the reel... anything recorded these days and you wouldn't even notice.

[zombie boy 2000]

Which album?!?

This is so funny you mentioned it because I have a Pro-ject Debut III on order and I told my wife last night the first record I was going to buy would be Doolittle.

[hearingimpared]

I was listening to some old Johnny Cash recordings last night and I realized something.... wow, slam, and loudness may not be oozing from the speakers, but once your ears grow accustomed to the softer textures -- you begin to realize just how deeply layered the music is.
It doesn't necessarily grab your intention at first, but if you're willing to invest even the slightest amount of effort into really focusing on the music, it becomes a vivid, three-dimensional, organic experience.

It's there and all the more satisfying... you can save your infinite pings and tuneless bass for the Best Buy/Ipod crowd.


You hit the nail right on the head, especially with Johnny Cash. I have a few JC recordings and they are incredible, no compression there.

[unc2701]

Which album?!?

This is so funny you mentioned it because I have a Pro-ject Debut III on order and I told my wife last night the first record I was going to buy would be Doolittle.

Surfer Rosa, but I've got Doolittle, too.

[zombie boy 2000]

Both are stellar...
did you see the piece on the Pixies in the latest issue of Stereophile?

Gawd, I must be getting old:D

[unc2701]

huh, come to think of it, I haven't seen this month's stereophile. Wife must have hid it :)

[MacLeod]

That is very eye opening! I never thought of that.

However, the Rush example is dead on! Their late 80's CD's had exceptional SQ with Test for Echo being my favorite. Vapor Trails however wasnt even close to the older ones.

[Lowell_M]

Hmm.. This is the most educational post of the day. I knew that newer CD's weren't good recordings but wasnt' sure why. This is quite depressing.

On a positive note... I recently bought the HDCD remastered John Fogerty Centerfield CD. I was playing it at low volume levels (-45 ish) and was kind of dissappointed in the CD...THEN I turned it up to -20 and wow! the dynamics came alive. I then ripped the CD to the highest quality MP3 setting in Itunes and then plated the MP3 for comparison. What a mess. The dynamics are definately intact in this HDCD recording.

[dragon1952]

I'm sitting here listening to Tom Petty's Greatest Hits through headphones and thinking what an incredible freakin' recording this is. Too bad they're all not like this.

[jkn]

Ironically, I'm listening to a cd that my cousin sent to me - and I'm wondering if he converted it from mp3 to burn the disc... Definitely missing definition even on my Sony boombox. :-( The music is good at least.

Regarding Vapor Trails... there's a fairly famous article discussing the bad mastering. The prorec server where it's hosted seems to be down so I've linked to both the original page and google's cache (the original may just be down for me right now...) - the cache worked fine.


original: http://www.prorec.com/prorec/articles.nsf/articles/8A133F52D0FD71AB86256C2E005DAF1C

cache: http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:RbOJj6KLsO8J:www.prorec.com/prorec/articles.nsf/articles/8A133F52D0FD71AB86256C2E005DAF1C+rush+vapor+trails +compression+analysis&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1

[bikezappa]

Dynamic range

I loved going to the BSO Thursday rehearsal concerts. These concerts we very cheap and no seats were assigned. Usually you got into the symphony hall and put your coat on good seats and left to go out for a quick bit to eat. Well this night they were playing a Mahler’s symphony. Mahler loved to use the dynamic range or loudness of the orchestra to set the mood. During one part of the monment Mahler spends about 10 minutes slowly reducing the volume by slowly peeling away waves of themes from the music. You definitely get lulled into the slowly reduced volume yet the melody is still there. During this part of the music I noticed this woman with two bags of groceries in her lap. She was definitely starting to surcome to the magic of the music and was nodding off. The end of Mahler’s slow quiet passage is the sudden impact of one of the loudest pieces of music ever. It’s like a burst out of a cannon for the orchestra from almost dead quiet. When this blast hits this women her grocery bags go into the air.

Dynamic range works in music.

Dynmaic range in very important to music.

Without dynmaic range there is no music.

[zombie boy 2000]

Incidently, the Stereophile article on The Pixies mentions the loud-soft-loud dynamic for which they are famous. And how many bands (both indie and underground) were directly influenced by their unique approach to rock.

btw Great post Bikezappa.

[Mother Mooch]

IS there a cure?

What about recording a CD to tape, then back to CD? Will the tape "warm it up" again? (yeah i know, but just a thought)

[jkn]

IS there a cure?

What about recording a CD to tape, then back to CD? Will the tape "warm it up" again? (yeah i know, but just a thought)

Not for the issue where the music has been pushed to the limit and all of the peaks have been clipped... there's nothing that can fix that short of going back to the original masters. (well - nothing that I'm aware of at least...)

Some of my friends record heavily on computer and will bounce the digital mix through a reel to reel 2 or 8 track tape recorder to get that more analog sound. It's a very nice technique that bridges both worlds somewhat. Some people run through tube amps to 'warm' things up. Although that's going off on a slightly different tangent from this thread.

bikezappa - I loved that Mahler story.

[Mother Mooch]

Not for the issue where the music has been pushed to the limit and all of the peaks have been clipped... there's nothing that can fix that short of going back to the original masters. (well - nothing that I'm aware of at least...)





Point taken! Now to get a hold of the masters... <Devious smile>

[hearingimpared]

Hmm.. This is the most educational post of the day. I knew that newer CD's weren't good recordings but wasnt' sure why. This is quite depressing.

On a positive note... I recently bought the HDCD remastered John Fogerty Centerfield CD. I was playing it at low volume levels (-45 ish) and was kind of dissappointed in the CD...THEN I turned it up to -20 and wow! the dynamics came alive. I then ripped the CD to the highest quality MP3 setting in Itunes and then plated the MP3 for comparison. What a mess. The dynamics are definately intact in this HDCD recording.


I have the original version of Centerfield from the 80s and it sounds incredible.

[hearingimpared]

Dynamic range

I loved going to the BSO Thursday rehearsal concerts. These concerts we very cheap and no seats were assigned. Usually you got into the symphony hall and put your coat on good seats and left to go out for a quick bit to eat. Well this night they were playing a Mahler’s symphony. Mahler loved to use the dynamic range or loudness of the orchestra to set the mood. During one part of the monment Mahler spends about 10 minutes slowly reducing the volume by slowly peeling away waves of themes from the music. You definitely get lulled into the slowly reduced volume yet the melody is still there. During this part of the music I noticed this woman with two bags of groceries in her lap. She was definitely starting to surcome to the magic of the music and was nodding off. The end of Mahler’s slow quiet passage is the sudden impact of one of the loudest pieces of music ever. It’s like a burst out of a cannon for the orchestra from almost dead quiet. When this blast hits this women her grocery bags go into the air.

Dynamic range works in music.

Dynmaic range in very important to music.

Without dynmaic range there is no music.

Sort of a reversed Ravel's Bolero?

[joeparaski]

Just thinkin'...but....isn't THIS where graphic equalizers and parametric equalizers will come in handy to bring back the "dynamics" of the music??

Joe

[hearingimpared]

Just thinkin'...but....isn't THIS where graphic equalizers and parametric equalizers will come in handy to bring back the "dynamics" of the music??

Joe

Good point Joe, I'm wondering now, if you had say, a 120 band eq, if that would enable you to restore some of the dynamics without it sounding bloated or breathy.

[Lowell_M]

Just thinkin'...but....isn't THIS where graphic equalizers and parametric equalizers will come in handy to bring back the "dynamics" of the music??

Joe

You must be one of those guys who really believes that the CSI Miami guys really can "enhance" the video so that they can read the emblem on the ladies shirt in the blackand white bank security video.

Something out of nothing, bro. The dynamics aren't going to be all in one frequency band.

[joeparaski]

I know there are a lot of purists on this forum that don't believe in tone controls. However, this phenomenon of crappy recordings could be the very reason why I play around with my eq's to change the sound to my liking. Without knowing the technical aspects of sound, am I not bringing back the sound to what my ears think it should sound like, while all along the purists are listening to the "wrong" sound because they have no tone controls.

So what is the reason some of you use no tone controls when the original music is wrong on the cd to begin with? According to the first post on this thread, the dynamics aren't there to begin with.

Joe

[joeparaski]

You must be one of those guys who really believes that the CSI Miami guys really can "enhance" the video so that they can read the emblem on the ladies shirt in the blackand white bank security video.

Something out of nothing, bro. The dynamics aren't going to be all in one frequency band.


Sorry Mattison, I watch very little t.v. and have never seen CSI, but I think I know what you're talking about.

I'm just curious about this issue that's all. After all, eq's were designed for a reason, and if my eq improves the sound I'm hearing, then that must be good thing.

Joe

[Lowell_M]

It is not that some particular frequency is cut down and needs to be louder, which is what an EQ would do, its that the loudest louds and and quietest quiets (in all frequencies) are both raised and lowered so that the music can easily be played "loud" on most systems and you don't "miss" any of the music. The dynamics are gone.

I'm thinking that and EQ would be used to correct a situation in a room where a particular frequency isn't recreated as it should be, so you turn that frequency up. The more expensive subs have built in software to manage this automatically. My H/K does a frequency sweep on all channels and adjusts accordingly automatically.

[Lowell_M]

Sorry Mattison, I watch very little t.v. and have never seen CSI, but I think I know what you're talking about.

I'm just curious about this issue that's all. After all, eq's were designed for a reason, and if my eq improves the sound I'm hearing, then that must be good thing.

Joe

Sorry for being a smart ass. That is one of my pet peaves in those CSI shows.....

[hearingimpared]

I know there are a lot of purists on this forum that don't believe in tone controls. However, this phenomenon of crappy recordings could be the very reason why I play around with my eq's to change the sound to my liking. Without knowing the technical aspects of sound, am I not bringing back the sound to what my ears think it should sound like, while all along the purists are listening to the "wrong" sound because they have no tone controls.

So what is the reason some of you use no tone controls when the original music is wrong on the cd to begin with? According to the first post on this thread, the dynamics aren't there to begin with.

Joe

This to me is another good point Joe. My preamp has no tone controls. . . I would never ever think of having tone controls, until recently. As you know I just got my rig up and running about 2 1/2 weeks now. The rig isn't tweaked out and the room is hot and needs to be treated so I'm not quite liking (sometimes) what I am hearing listening to certain material. The last day or two I have found myself wishing I had a bass tone control to just slightly boost the bass, not much, just a little. It's just a feeling that comes over me. I'm sure that once I get things the way they need to be especially with room treatments, that feeling will become less and less but your point is well taken.

EDIT: One of the reasons that I know it is the room is that when I move off the sweet spot, I hear deep tight bass and crisp clear trumpets and bones etc. but it would be nice that until I get the room treated I had a little leeway with tone control.

[joeparaski]

I didn't know that your H/K can do that. That's what happens when you're out of the loop for so long. I was all into "audio" in the 80's then fell out of it and wasn't in touch with the developing technoligies of the last 10 years at least. So I still think "old school".....seems I got a lot of catching up to do.

But like I hear so often on this forum....."let your ears be the judge".

Joe

[Lowell_M]

I didn't know that your H/K can do that. That's what happens when you're out of the loop for so long. I was all into "audio" in the 80's then fell out of it and wasn't in touch with the developing technoligies of the last 10 years at least. So I still think "old school".....seems I got a lot of catching up to do.

But like I hear so often on this forum....."let your ears be the judge".

Joe

Yea, When I added my ADCOM and recalibrated the room must not have been silent, because, damn!, did I have a mid bass bloat problem. Vocals sounded terrible because the bass in the vocals was over exagerated. I put the dogs in another room, sat really still and recalibrated and everything sounds great. I did manually tweak crossover settings like most with the H/K's do, but am pretty happy with the auto EQ.

[disneyjoe7]

I believe nothing could be done to fix this issue. I think of this like the light bulb in the blender thing.... There's nothing I repeat NOTHING you are going to do to put them back together.

[Lowell_M]

I believe nothing could be done to fix this issue. I think of this like the light bulb in the blender thing.... There's nothing I repeat NOTHING you are going to do to put them back together.

I bet "H" from CSI Miami has a redynamificator machine that he could fix this with.

[disneyjoe7]

I bet "H" from CSI Miami has a redynamificator machine that he could fix this with.


LOL love it. :)