Next step?

[BottomFeeder]

Sitting here, drinking in the sweet sounds of Joni Mitchell's re-mastered Hits, and then it hit me: ok, what's next?

As befits my user name (BottomFeeder), I'm a minimalist looking to score whatever top end stuff I can get for bottom feeding prices. (Can I get an "amen" out there?:) ) I love the sound I've got - so far - but I'd like to get even better sound. (Yes, it looks like I'm officially addicted).

I have an NAD C320Bee (50 wpc) with a NAD C521Bee feeding Polk Audio RTA12C's and DangerBoy got me using Cobalt interconnects. Each of these components has elevated my SQ dramatically. So now I'm wondering, what else will give me equal "bang for the buck" improvment? DangerBoy kindly hooked up his NAD amp w/200wpc & neither of us noticed a big improvment in SQ, so I'm thinking another amp isn't the 1st thing to do.

What drives me nuts is putting on a cd of wonderful music that sounds cruddy because it's been recorded poorly. What interests me (currently) is getting a SACD player. It seems that albums produced on SACD dramatically improve SQ. YES??? I've read here that even inexpensive SACD players like Sony can be excellent. (Do you SACD users have 2 cd players?)

Anyway, enough of my guts for now. What do you think? What's my next step???

Thank you very much for your advice!

[AndyGwis]

I picked up an older Sony SACD player off ebay, I'll let you know how it sounds once I get it hooked up. Had a rotel rcc-945 cdp, but hate not being able to play my few SACDs on the two channel rig.

I think it's the sony C222es or something. Midfi on the cheap, that's what I'm all about. But, I now have too much mid-fi laying around.

[seo]

What? You went to 200 wpc and it didn't change the SQ? :eek:

Don't let certain members of this board hear that. That's heresy!:rolleyes:



Actually, that sounds like a pretty good 2 channel system for the buck.

You're best place for improvement is probably the source. Try an SACD player or upgrade you CD player or maybe a separate DAC.

[Ricardo]

Don't play crappy recordings...

really...there are some bad recordings that won't sound good even if you have the best player/DAC in the world. It's sad, but true. I have some music I like, don't listen to it because the recording is bad. That's part of the price we pay for having mid/high end gear. If we had a boom box, everything would sound the same; I sometimes envy people that enjoy their boom box.......not...not really :)

[pblanc]

I have a low end Sony 5 disc CD/SACD changer I picked up as an open box buy at Best Buy which works just fine. I think SACD really is the medium that Redbook CD should have been. I would say that SACD even on a low-end player sounds better than regular CD on a high-end player. It doesn't make a lot of sense to get an SACD player, though, unless you are willing to invest in at least a modest collection of SACD disks. I'm not using this player at present, and if you are really interested in exploring this medium, send me a PM.

[Refefer]

I would say that SACD even on a low-end player sounds better than regular CD on a high-end player. It doesn't make a lot of sense to get an SACD player, though, unless you are willing to invest in at least a modest collection of SACD disks. I'm not using this player at present, and if you are really interested in exploring this medium, send me a PM.

I don't know if I'd go that far, but SACD certainly has the potential to sound better than regular CDs if you have an adequate player. Go oppo and never look back ;)

[BottomFeeder]

Ok, w/apologies, what's an "oppo?"

[PolkWannabie]

http://www.oppodigital.com

[tonyb]

Ok, w/apologies, what's an "oppo?"

Thats Greek for "cheap but good"
Kinda like your first girlfriend!:)

[hearingimpared]

I don't know if I'd go that far, but SACD certainly has the potential to sound better than regular CDs if you have an adequate player. Go oppo and never look back ;)

You contradicted yourself Brother! Oppo . . . I have one, I like it, but I've never heard an SACD yet and I purchased some SACDs to play on the Oppo, if there isn't a dramatic improvement, then I'll be using the Oppo to play CDs through my high end DAC which makes the Oppo sound wonderful, then I'm going after a quality SACD player. . .no if, no ands, or buts!!!

[dorokusai]

Next step? A firearm.

[DarqueKnight]

As befits my user name (BottomFeeder), I'm a minimalist looking to score whatever top end stuff I can get for bottom feeding prices.

This is generally difficult to achieve unless you run across the angry wife or girlfriend of an audiophile who is selling her significant other's treasures behind his back to spite him for some real or imagined misdeed. Good luck anyway.

I have an NAD C320Bee (50 wpc) with a NAD C521Bee feeding Polk Audio RTA12C's and DangerBoy got me using Cobalt interconnects...DangerBoy kindly hooked up his NAD amp w/200wpc & neither of us noticed a big improvment in SQ, so I'm thinking another amp isn't the 1st thing to do.

Maybe...maybe not. Why do you assume the main determinant in an amp's sound is the rated power output? A 50 watt amp can sound world's better than a 300 watt amp if the 50 watt amp has a better circuit design, uses better electronic parts, and has a superior resonance and vibration damping in the chassis.

What drives me nuts is putting on a cd of wonderful music that sounds cruddy because it's been recorded poorly. What interests me (currently) is getting a SACD player. It seems that albums produced on SACD dramatically improve SQ. YES???

Not if the source material is poorly recorded to begin with. Whether you look at a pile of crap under a 10X or 1000X magnifying lens, it is still a pile of crap.

I've read here that even inexpensive SACD players like Sony can be excellent. (Do you SACD users have 2 cd players?)

You must be very, very careful when using the term "inexpensive" when referring to audio gear. For some people, a $10,000 SACD player is "inexpensive". It is preferable, and more informative for the reader, for you to state a price range or price point when making these kinds of generalizations.

Anyway, enough of my guts for now. What do you think? What's my next step???

Just for starters, spend some time (1) studying the design philosophies of different amplifier circuits, (2) studying the effects of parts quality on sound quality and (3) studying the effects of component synergy on sound quality.

Thank you very much for your advice!

You're welcome.

[danger boy]

with every next step there has to be something with your system that you aren't happy with. I'd be proud to own BottomFeeders set up.. it does sound very good. I'm ready for another demo again.. it's been a few months.. and now I want to see how the Cobalt cables have settled in.

As far as SACD's go... it may not be worth the investment at any level. Fewer hi rez SACD's are becoming available it seems. I have a tough time finding many of them locally anymore.

The two stores that carried them in my area, Circuit City and Hastings both stopped carrying them a while ago. I know, I know.. there are lots and lots of them available online.

That was my hope for DVD-audio years ago.. it just never took off.. and now is more or less considered DOA.

Brent, if anything.. i think you'd have to lay out some mid to high level bucks to increase the sq of your system from where it is now. Going tube amp or tube pre amp may be a logical step..but there again.. you'll be laying out a decent bank roll to take your system up to the next level... which may only be a minor jump.

Invite me over again... and lets swap out those SL2000's ;)

[heiney9]

I would say that SACD even on a low-end player sounds better than regular CD on a high-end player.

Nope.......not true. Don't waste your money an low end SACD player, you won't gain much. Either go with a higher end redbook player or better yet a solid seperate DAC. If you are going SACD go all the way or don't go at all.

H9

[pblanc]

I based that comment on a comparison of hybrid SACD/CDs that I listened to on a Jolida JD100 A (non SACD) player, a Sony NS999ES SACD/DVD/CD player (fairly high-end) and a Sony SCD-CE595 5 disc CD/SACD changer. To my ears, the SACD layers sounded better, even on the low-end Sony changer (purchased for about $100 as an open box buy at Best Buy) than the Redbook CD layers did on my Jolida tube CDP. Did the 999ES sound better than the CE595? Yes, but not by a huge margin. But then of course, your ears may be much better.

[heiney9]

Fair enough.....thanks for the additional supporting info. I'm still in the camp of going all the way with SACD. But each has to decide on their own if it's worth the extra $$$.

H9

[AndyGwis]

Speaking of cheap SACD players, anyone have comments on the Sony C222ES? Is it bottom of the barrel as far as SACD players go?


Ring. . . ring. . . hello, Police, I'd like to report a mini-hijacking.

[BottomFeeder]

Hijack away!

Thanks for all of your advice:
Dorokusai: but on whom/what do I use it first?
Tonyb: how'd you know my first girlfriend?
Refefer: I'm just a 2 channel guy - no home theater attached to this setup - but thanks for playing!
DarqueKnight: thanks for the education!
DangerBoy: Thanks for your input. I forgot about changing out the tweeters, something that everyone's recommended as the first order of business. You know where I'm coming from $ wise, so thanks for your suggestions.

Gracias, mi amigos!

[steveinaz]

High-end audio is a double edged sword---the better your equipment gets, the better it has to be.

[steveinaz]

I would say that SACD even on a low-end player sounds better than regular CD on a high-end player.

Not what I found when comparing an SACD thru a Denon DVD-2910 vs a Redbook thru my CEC/Benchmark combo. But hey, thats me....

[bikezappa]

Well bottom feeder my advice is to remember it's all about the music.
All of the advice from the members is good as to what to spend your money on.

However, I have been buying shit for 30 years, so maybe you need more selections of music to make you happy.

Get a high quality FM tuner and FM antenna. There are many great stations to find new music to listen to for free if you live in a large city, NPR and college staions.

I'm lucky in that Boston has many stations that broadcast uncompressed FM music (even LPs) from jazz to classical, to folk and even Hillbilly music. It's amazing what music is on FM NPR and college stations. Clear channel stations sucks however.

Good FM sound can be had. IF you are interested let me know. I always end up buying new CD's after I have heard them on FM

Happy listening.

Peter

[Refefer]

Hijack away!

Thanks for all of your advice:
Dorokusai: but on whom/what do I use it first?
Tonyb: how'd you know my first girlfriend?
Refefer: I'm just a 2 channel guy - no home theater attached to this setup - but thanks for playing!
DarqueKnight: thanks for the education!
DangerBoy: Thanks for your input. I forgot about changing out the tweeters, something that everyone's recommended as the first order of business. You know where I'm coming from $ wise, so thanks for your suggestions.

Gracias, mi amigos!

The oppo was a suggestion as a 2 channel type of deal. If you look at my sig, you'll notice I use one as well. It offers SACD, DVD-A, and HDCD formats with digital outs for it's processing. If you do a search on the forum, you'll find plenty of people clammoring for it ;)

[BottomFeeder]

Bikezappa:

I have a pretty good vintage tuner (at least I've been told), a Sansui TU 717. I DON'T, however, have an FM antenna. I'd love any advice you can give - about antennas - and about anything else FM related that you'd care to give.

How do you know which stations don't play compressed music? Just call them?

Anyway, nice advice and I'd welcome more!

[hearingimpared]

Bikezappa:

I have a pretty good vintage tuner (at least I've been told), a Sansui TU 717. I DON'T, however, have an FM antenna. I'd love any advice you can give - about antennas - and about anything else FM related that you'd care to give.

How do you know which stations don't play compressed music? Just call them?

Anyway, nice advice and I'd welcome more!

I also have a vintage Sansui . . . I am looking into a roof antenna with an electric rotor. All NPR stations are compression free. I was listening to the local NPR station tonight on the way home and it sounded wonderful on my shitty car system.

[bikezappa]

I'll get back to you later today with FM information.

[bikezappa]

FMtuners@yahoogroups

Not sure how I joined this group but they talk endlessly about tuners. Many of these people have 20 tuners. It is addicting because I had 5 tuners at one time but now I only have two. They have much information and are very willing to help anyone improve FM and AM listening.

http://www.fmtunerinfo.com/

This is the BEST site for checking out tuners and people who fix them. Below is a short review of your tuner which is very nice.

http://www.starkelectronic.com/rotor.htm

You can get good FM antennas and rotors and supplies here by mail order.

Radio S used to sell a nice Yagi FM antenna with I think had 5 or 6 elements. It is discontinued now but can be found for about $25 at some stores.

The complete antenna, mast, wire and rotor assembly for FM will cost about $150, the problem is installing it if you don't like heights.

Here is an example of the review of your tuner.

Sansui TU-717 (1977, $370, front, back, inside, schematic left, schematic right) search eBay
The TU-717 has 4 FM and 2 AM gangs, 4 ceramic filters, and audiophile-caliber sound. Some think the TU-717 and its relatives are among the best-looking tuners, with their sleek black faces and nice lights. When modified with narrower filters in the narrow IF bandwidth path, the TU-717 can be an excellent tuner for DXing while retaining its fine audio quality in the wide IF mode. On the DIY Mods page, our panelist Jim describes how to make the TU-717 even better by rebuilding the power supply and inserting better-quality capacitors in the audio stage. See how one stock TU-717 sounded compared to other top tuners on our Shootouts page. Here are Sansui's instructions on how to replace the dial cord on a TU-717. On eBay, the TU-717 can sell for almost anywhere from the mid-$100s to around $350, with $165-250 being the most common range. The all-time high was $461 in 4/05 for a "new old stock" TU-717. The higher priced 717s sold on eBay have usually had rack mount handles. [BF][EF][JR]


http://www.radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/page?p=maps

This site will tell you ALL the FM stations by your zip code. This site was very helpful for me to locate the wacko college stations in my area. Hope you find them also.

Have a blast.

[BottomFeeder]

Wow! Thanks Bikezappa!

You've given me so much to look into! Thank you. I know your suggestions will take me further in my quest for audio nirvanna!

Thanks again!

[hearingimpared]

FMtuners@yahoogroups

Not sure how I joined this group but they talk endlessly about tuners. Many of these people have 20 tuners. It is addicting because I had 5 tuners at one time but now I only have two. They have much information and are very willing to help anyone improve FM and AM listening.

http://www.fmtunerinfo.com/

This is the BEST site for checking out tuners and people who fix them. Below is a short review of your tuner which is very nice.

http://www.starkelectronic.com/rotor.htm

You can get good FM antennas and rotors and supplies here by mail order.

Radio S used to sell a nice Yagi FM antenna with I think had 5 or 6 elements. It is discontinued now but can be found for about $25 at some stores.

The complete antenna, mast, wire and rotor assembly for FM will cost about $150, the problem is installing it if you don't like heights.

Here is an example of the review of your tuner.

Sansui TU-717 (1977, $370, front, back, inside, schematic left, schematic right) search eBay
The TU-717 has 4 FM and 2 AM gangs, 4 ceramic filters, and audiophile-caliber sound. Some think the TU-717 and its relatives are among the best-looking tuners, with their sleek black faces and nice lights. When modified with narrower filters in the narrow IF bandwidth path, the TU-717 can be an excellent tuner for DXing while retaining its fine audio quality in the wide IF mode. On the DIY Mods page, our panelist Jim describes how to make the TU-717 even better by rebuilding the power supply and inserting better-quality capacitors in the audio stage. See how one stock TU-717 sounded compared to other top tuners on our Shootouts page. Here are Sansui's instructions on how to replace the dial cord on a TU-717. On eBay, the TU-717 can sell for almost anywhere from the mid-$100s to around $350, with $165-250 being the most common range. The all-time high was $461 in 4/05 for a "new old stock" TU-717. The higher priced 717s sold on eBay have usually had rack mount handles. [BF][EF][JR]


http://www.radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/page?p=maps

This site will tell you ALL the FM stations by your zip code. This site was very helpful for me to locate the wacko college stations in my area. Hope you find them also.

Have a blast.

Thanks Bro, I've book marked this post for future tuna reference.

[bikezappa]

The cheapest and simplest thing to do is buy a $6 set of plain rabbit ears from radio shack and use them as your FM antenna. Move the rabbit ears around for the best signal and have fun finding new music.

By the way I haven't found anything worth listening above 95 on the FM dial. The music stations higher than 95 all appear to be very compressed. Let me know if you find this same situation.

[hearingimpared]

The cheapest and simplest thing to do is buy a $6 set of plain rabbit ears from radio shack and use them as your FM antenna. Move the rabbit ears around for the best signal and have fun finding new music.

By the way I haven't found anything worth listening above 95 on the FM dial. The music stations higher than 95 all appear to be very compressed. Let me know if you find this same situation.

I have rabbit ears. . . too much interference in this part of the country. You are correct about stations above 95 although there are some stations in the Wilmington/Phila area who don't compress but they overmodulate the signal.

[bikezappa]

hearingimpared

What do you mean by interference?

What type of tuner are you using?

Have you tried V shaping the rabbit ears and changing the length?

The higher they are the better.

[hearingimpared]

hearingimpared

What do you mean by interference?.

Loads of static. This part of Delaware has a lot of high tension wire in the area. They are not in the immediate area but are close enough to cause AM/FM signals to be very scattered.


What type of tuner are you using?

Sansui TU 777

Have you tried V shaping the rabbit ears and changing the length?

The higher they are the better.


No I haven't tried all the different shapes and lengths yet. The rabbit ears are the ones that used to snap into a hole mount in a TV set. I've had good experience with roof antennas with the rotor for AM/FM in the past and if I am going to stay with this method of radio then that is route I am going to take. In the mean time the tuna is pretty much a conversation piece.