SACD vs Redbook impressions...

[steveinaz]

Equipment used:

SACD: Denon DVD-2910 via Kimber Hero
Redbook CD: CEC CD-3300 transport w/Benchmark DAC1 via Toslink

I have only 1 SACD, Pink Floyd Dark side of the moon, so I used this along with the 24 bit remastered Redbook version to test with. I started both players on track 1, so I could switch between them via my preamp remote.

I could not level match, and this was a problem because the SACD was notably louder than the Redbook at a given preamp level. I attempted as best I could to quickly lower and raise the volume upon switching--but it was difficult.

The SACD came off as sounding a bit softer overall, yet a touch deeper in the bass. Midrange differences were very noticeable as the midrange was more forward through the SACD--almost irratatingly so. I did detect what appeared to be better treble in that cymbals had a more lifelike sound to them--but this was fairly subtle. The forwardness of the midrange made it difficult to hear fine differences however. Probably not a fair comparison using a Denon universal player against a $1600 redbook front-end.

Conclusions? I'm a little disappointed. Again, I think the Denon was probably not up to the task, and a dedicated SACD player would have faired much better. I was really put-off by the midrange; it sounded contrived and over-done. When I would switch between inputs it was like sliding the 3kHz slider on an equalizer up & down---that noticable...strange I thought. Bottom line, I preferred the redbook 24bit remaster thru my CEC/Benchmark combo over the SACD thru the Denon.

Don't get me wrong, the SACD sounded good. It had a very smooth, easy way about it that really got you into the music, and thinking less about the equipment. I just didn't hear enough differences and/or improvements to justify replacing a redbook library---

[heiney9]

Just what I’ve been saying. While the 2910 is no slouch and certainly isn’t an entry level player you need to spend some big bucks on a no compromise SACD to beat out a stellar redbook set-up. Many people on here don’t want to believe that or perhaps aren’t as anal as I am about the nuances of recordings. If you are going to go SACD you need to go all the way. There is nothing wrong with redbook if you know how to assemble a proper source. SACD on a budget is certainly worth entertaining if A) you don’t already have a great redbook player. B) you understand a great redbook set-up will beat it most times.

EDIT: typo on Denon model # thanks for pointing it out RT1

[reeltrouble1]

Denon 2900 and 2910 are different machines and price points. The 2900 was replaced by the 3910 in the line, there is no 3900.

Glad you gave it a try Steve, pretty much agree. I ended up going with a player that could do both extremely well, not cheap but well, its just how I did it. I would never replace my redbook library, I am doing all the sources right now and pretty much loving audio life.

RT1

[Dennis Gardner]

I know you can't A/B compare, but how does the Denon compare CD to SACD on those same tracks?

I find that it is disc dependent on playback of both on my Marantz 8260. Even on a dual disc, the mastering of the two tracks may have been done by separate engineers. There simply isn't enough, difference between the two formats in general for most listeners to care about.

[I-SIG]

Makes me feel better about my Rotel/Kimber/Bel Canto front end. I know several have said the Oppo sounds pretty good, but I think I may hold off on any serious SACD ventures.

Thanks, Steve.

Wes

[shack]

I respect what you have heard and attribute much to the quality of your current setup. It would be interesting to see if a SACD player equal to your current rig would fare better.

On the other hand, I am aware that your setup is 2 channel only, and that being the case, DSOTM is not the SACD I would use to audition the format. SACD is like anything else, the result is only as good as the input. DSOTM was a showcase for multichannel SACD. I have seen several opinions that feel the redbook layer of the disc may be as good, if not better than the stereo SACD layer. The bass is thought to be a bit bloated and the instruments harsh and somewhat "pinched" on the stereo layer of the SACD. (sounds a little like what you've reported) A review I read felt the 2 channel SACD came from a different master than the quad LP which in the reviewer's mind was the pinnacle for the album. He felt the multi-channel SACD layer was definitely remastered from the original muti-channel tapes. DSOTM (as I have often stated on the forum) is the ONLY SACD that I prefer in MC vs stereo. The stereo layer is not bad per se, just no where near as good as the MC layer IMO. This is not the case with any other SACD I've listened to. If your remastered CD was remixed from the better master tapes and was mixed for optimal stereo reproduction, it does not suprise me at all that it will sound better to you. Add the quality of your gear and the result is probably spot on.

You might try the redbook layer of the SACD on your CEC and see how it compares. I am not one to run out and get SACDs of every album I like. In some cases I have purchased SACD copies of a redbook CD that I own and have been blown away by the difference and find they sound better than even a good vinyl copy. On occasion I've been disappointed that the SACD isn't that much better.

Good for you for giving hi-Rez a shot. I don't know that I would come to my final conclusion based on one SACD. Try a couple more and maybe even "borrow" a better quality SACD player. I know you quest for the best sound possible and SACD CAN lead to that. Take it from someone that is not trying to get that last bit of quality sound from his rig (I'm more of a just "enjoy the music" type) but I am a fan of SACD and find it to be a very good format (most of the time). If you never buy another SACD, chances are you will be content with your rig. If you happen across that ONE that blows you away...well...

Enjoy the music! ;)

[schwarcw]

Nice writeup Steve, interesting perspective. I agree that the DSOTM is probably not the best SACD to do an A/B comparison. Like anything, the better the equipment, the more you'll notice a difference. Your system would bring out the best of SACD if you had a mid to low hi end SACD player. The hybrid disks are going to keep SACD around a while. SACD new releases and players continue to be produced. It's not growing like Sony and many audio enthusiasts would probably like. But I think that's a function of our I-Pod generation's choice of music. Hi end audio is a slow growth industry. I think this generation will change as they mature and maybe a new and hopefully better hi rez format will evolve.

[DarqueKnight]

...maybe a new and hopefully better hi rez format will evolve.

Another format? Please, not in my lifetime.:mad:

[venomclan]

Nice write up Steve. I would be curious to know how the 2910 would sound on redbook as a transport with the Dac1. You can then test each units ability as a transport only. If there is a discernable difference from the CEC, that can be a wider margin as to why the Denon underperformed.

I use my 2900 with the Bel Canto Dac 1.1 and I think I prefer that to my Marantz cd player as a transport. I have never tried SACD though.
Venom

[pblanc]

I don't have a huge collection of SACD (about 50) but like shack, I find that the difference in SQ between the SACD/Redbook version or the Redbook layer of a hybrid CD varies a lot depending on the disk. In some cases, there is no great advantage to the SACD version. In other cases, the difference to me is rather stunning. In general, I have preferred SACDs recorded in stereo rather than multichannel. I suspect that some people's dissapointment with SACD is because of the particular disk(s) they auditioned, or the known limitations of bass management that most SACD players have. I have used
small, stereo subwoofers hooked in line with my LSi15s so I am not dependent on the subwoofer channel of the SACD player to provide bass and this works for me.

[steveinaz]

Dennis: I was able to A/B, but had a bit of a level match problem. I had both the SACD verision, and a seperate Redbook 24bit remaster of DSOTM for comparison.

Shackster: The DSOTM SACD I bought has no redbook layer.

Venom: I have tested the 2910 thru the DAC1, although it worked very well, the CEC was better as a transport overall.

I agree that 1 SACD is not enough to make a sweeping judgement call, I guess I was just expecting to be "wowed" and I wasn't. Aside from the midrange anomaly, the differences between the 2 were less than I've heard with a good cable upgrade. Also agree that the 2910 was probably not enough SACD player to make a fair comparison.

[shack]

Shackster: The DSOTM SACD I bought has no redbook layer.

Steve, something doesn't add up. As far as I know, DSOTM was ONLY issued in hybrid form by EMI. I've checked EMI records website, and pinkfloyd.com and there is no mention of any issue that is not hybrid. Is yours listed as multichannel and stereo SACD?

[steveinaz]

I'll have to check it again tonight. I'll try to play it in my CEC. It has no mention of being hybrid and only says SACD on the label.

[reeltrouble1]

Could it have been a Russki booter??? I have the one Shack has, hybrid, and dont have that mid-range pump you are hearing, the disc sounds good both ways to me, for you fans I enjoy Roger Waters in the Flesh, for SACD pink floyd stuff more than DSOTM, I know a bit of sacralige for Floyd purists.

RT1

[SLOCOOKN]

Could it have been a Russki booter??? I have the one Shack has, hybrid, and dont have that mid-range pump you are hearing, the disc sounds good both ways to me, for you fans I enjoy Roger Waters in the Flesh, for SACD pink floyd stuff more than DSOTM, I know a bit of sacralige for Floyd purists.

RT1

How about Roger Waters RADIO K.A.O.S...I love that album!

[snow]

Could it have been a Russki booter??? I have the one Shack has, hybrid, and dont have that mid-range pump you are hearing, the disc sounds good both ways to me, for you fans I enjoy Roger Waters in the Flesh, for SACD pink floyd stuff more than DSOTM, I know a bit of sacralige for Floyd purists.

RT1 AGREED. ROGER WATERS IN THE FLESH IS MY FAVORITE OF THE PINK FLOYD RELATED MATERIAL. IT IS AVALIABLE ON DVD CD AND SACD AND HAS A TOTAL OF 24 LIVE TRACKS, WHICH MAKE IT A BARGIAN IN MY MIND. DELICATE SOUNDS OF THUNDER IS NEXT. FOLLOWED BY PULSE. THEN DSOTM. REGARDS SNOW

[organ]

Thanks for posting your impressions, Steve.
I tried SACD vs redbook too but my universal dvd/sacd/dvd-a player just didn't cut it for me. The same music sounded better on my cd player.
Makes me wonder how much one have to spend on a dedicated player to hear a substantial improvement over rebook.

[hearingimpared]

>>>>>>>>just subscribing to this thread as I want to read it tomorrow . . . going to bed, feeling really sick.

[steveinaz]

Damn, I forgot to check that SACD to see if it was hybrid...

[reeltrouble1]

This thread is going places, well at least I think its an issue to sink your teeth into.

Its just so subjective in the end, yes the science of an SACD says thousands of more samples and millions of more quantization levels resulting in a much decreased reliance on the players interpolaters. Then the issues of the signal path, power supplies, capacitors, resistors, remotes, and so on for each machine to reach that potential.

After all you put the disc in the player sit down and have an experience, maybe just a few minutes or hours away from things, but your time to forget everything and live in that moment.

As far as a dollar amount, well I have a couple of universal players in the racks which had retail price points in excess of 1,000.00, when they were new, in my rooms I have found these players provide a better experience with sacd discs than my hi-end source does with redbook, each rack is different and the gaps in between the formats are different and unique to each rack.

I was actually looking for Redbook source when I bought the MF player as I was pretty happy with the high resolution capabilites of my players but not with the Redbook playback. The MF with the gear in the Shed is great with both SACD and Redbook. That said, there is a significant difference between the two formats when A-B'd on that machine, with the SACD taking the prize, one caveat, it has to be there on the disc or it will sound like, well, it wont sound good.

RT1

RT1

[hearingimpared]

Damn, I forgot to check that SACD to see if it was hybrid...


Okay I'm confused again. Are SACD hybrids any less quality than non-SACD hybrids. I remember asking Jesse this question but his answer slipped my mind because I had asked him a dozen other questions. LOL

[steveinaz]

In the end, I think it all comes down to what we've all said all along...If a CD or SACD are well engineered, either will sound great. I think redbook has, and always has had, the potential to be the end-all do-all format, when executed properly. Having said that, I think SACD has the potential to squeeze a little more performance...the question is, is it enough to expect consumers to replace existing libraries? Sadly, I don't think so. Now if Sony would have pushed a large inventory out there, made prices at or below CD, then later down the road raised prices a little to compensate; they may have been successful--but you gotta throw consumers a bone.

Let's face it, audiophiles are a small niche group. Surely Sony saw this coming. How are you going to introduce a new format that requires that you replace your library, to the 80 percentile who wouldn't know the difference between a coat hanger and Nordost Vahalla speaker cables? It's like Sony had a group of undergraduates come up with the marketing plan for SACD, and that's a shame. Talk about poor execution, it's almost laughable.

In the BEST of circumstances, SACD would have struggled to stay afloat---just for the reasons given above; add to that the marketing debacle, and you have a recipe for disaster.

[heiney9]

In the end, I think it all comes down to what we've all said all along...If a CD or SACD are well engineered, either will sound great. I think redbook has, and always has had, the potential to be the end-all do-all format, when executed properly. Having said that, I think SACD has the potential to squeeze a little more performance...the question is, is it enough to expect consumers to replace existing libraries? Sadly, I don't think so. Now if Sony would have pushed a large inventory out there, made prices at or below CD, then later down the road raised prices a little to compensate; they may have been successful--but you gotta throw consumers a bone.

Pretty much sums up my POV. I don't feel the need or have heard the need to go out spend big bucks on both an SACD player and the music to go along with it when my Redbook set-up is 99% there already. If my current system and cd's were to all go away tomorrow and I was starting fresh, a hi-end SACD player would be a consideration. The amount of $$$ i'd have to shell out at this point for a top notch player and software in no way justifies the better performance I might realize.

I still feel a mediocre SACD/universal player will not compete with a high end Redbook set-up regardless of the software (cd). If you are going to go SACD go all the way and get a nice high end player or don't go at all.

[reeltrouble1]

Well, there are over 4,000 titles on SACD who knows how many really good ones. For the format to shine you need to have really good music with texture, dynamics, rythym and tone.

Enter Classical and Jazz. Music which has stood a much longer test of time than pop/rock. Enter vinyl has the king for many listener's who enjoy the Classical and Jazz genre's. A big competitor for SACD to overtake.

There are some great pop/rock/blues sacd. I doubt there will ever be a huge number, as the material may be lacking and the money boys want their share, but I find enough of them to keep my interest peaked. Most recently I have started exploring the DVD-A side of the coin, all balanced against the anticipated improvements in house servers and so on.

It may very well be the studio's who produce, sell and control things are well aware of the situation and spending alot of time in determining how best to seperate you, me and everyone else from their dollars, as many times as they can.

For me good SACD trumps good CD every single time.

RT1

[shack]

I still feel a mediocre SACD/universal player will not compete with a high end Redbook set-up regardless of the software (cd). If you are going to go SACD go all the way and get a nice high end player or don't go at all.

I will disagree...not from just mere speculation...but from hearing an average SACD go head to head with a very good redbook machine. If the SACD is done well, and an average SACD player does it's job the results can be excellent. Of course this is just my opinion...and that of many others.

As we have discussed many times, SACD will not become maninsteam. MP3 has seen to that. It will probably not go away either. There is a niche market...just like vinyl. There are those who will replace their music library if it is important to them. We all probably know someone who has several different copies of the same album in different formats. The HT crowd has its share of this phenomenom as well. Everyone replaced their favorite VHS tapes with DVDs (and some had already bought the laser discs - only to relace them with DVDs). Some titles were replaced with the "Superbit" copies and now the HD DVD and BlueRay discs will replace many of the old discs.

It really depends on what you want. Redbook can be excellent. If done right, Hi-rez is even better.

[F1nut]

Are SACD hybrids any less quality than non-SACD hybrids.

No.


SACD, to my ears, always sounds better than the redbook counterpart. That's not to say that there aren't great sounding redbook CD's because there are, but if they are mastered to SACD, they become even better. It's much like the difference between average redbook and great redbook, it's not really WOW Holy Shit, but obviously more satisfying. Subtle differences are what hifi is all about.

[heiney9]

I will disagree...not from just mere speculation...but from hearing an average SACD go head to head with a very good redbook machine. If the SACD is done well, and an average SACD player does it's job the results can be excellent. Of course this is just my opinion...and that of many others.

As we have discussed many times, SACD will not become maninsteam. MP3 has seen to that. It will probably not go away either. There is a niche market...just like vinyl. There are those who will replace their music library if it is important to them. We all probably know someone who has several different copies of the same album in different formats. The HT crowd has its share of this phenomenom as well. Everyone replaced their favorite VHS tapes with DVDs (and some had already bought the laser discs - only to relace them with DVDs). Some titles were replaced with the "Superbit" copies and now the HD DVD and BlueRay discs will replace many of the old discs.

It really depends on what you want. Redbook can be excellent. If done right, Hi-rez is even better.

So you are saying a average off the shelf SACD capable player with no special design parameters like dual trans, isolation of circuits, premium parts will better a redbook player with all these advantages? That's what I'm talking about. I have a friend who bought a fairly pricey Sony SACD player (what I'd consider a mid-level player). Nothing fancy as far as build and my redbook set-up trounces it pretty handily.

I'm not really trying to be arguementative, but a mediocre SACD player cannot compete with a well thought out well designed redbook set-up. Head-to-head players with similar build and design, SACD will win (apples to apples).

You can't get something for nothing. One cannot possibly think that you can buy a $300 SACD player and it's going to perform better than a $2-3000 redbook set-up merely because of the SACD format. My only point is so many people on this board are going out buying a very middle of the road SACD capable players and then touting it as being the bomb and a giant killer and so much better than redbook. To me in my experience that's far from the truth. Apples to apples is all I'm saying. :)

[shack]

Yes. We will just have to disagree based on my experience and yours.

[heiney9]

Yes. We will just have to disagree based on my experience and yours.

Respectfully disagree. One last question if you can get such great performance at such low cost then why hasn't the format steamrolled everything in it's path. Hell, if I didn't have to spend 2-3K on a redbook player and I could get better performance from a $300 SACD player I'd be all over it. So would many many others.

I know software is the most obvious debate. But besides that.

[shack]

As has been discussed over and over, the average consumer could care less about good sound and only cares if they can "steal" it over the internet and put it in a little box the size of a credit card. Hi rez has been a sucess in the world of "audiophiles"... ie the number of classical and jazz SACDs and the small independent labels producing the format. The SACD has been much more sucessful in Asia where they may be more fanatical with gear than the West. Review after review of the format on players such as the Sony SCD-CE775, SCD-CE595, and some of the Sony DVD players like the DVP-875V have commented how much the SACD compares favorably with their benchmark redbook players. One problem is that many of the universal players out there converts DSD to PCM which is inferior.

I have never said an average SACD will better a TOL redbook system hands down, but it can be it's equal (and on occasion better) given the right software.

An average SACD player (that does it right) with excellent software will outperform average software on excellent gear IMO. Apples, oranges, bannanas, lemons....whatever.

[pblanc]

I side with shack on this issue with the following qualifications: of course a "mediocre" SACD player is not going to "sound better" than a top notch SACD player for playing Redbook CDs. Not all SACDs are created equally. In some, the engineering masters really capture the potential of the format and its inherent advantages, and in other cases they don't. When they don't, a high end CDP wll no doubt sound better. But when they do, the inherent superiority of the SACD format can more than cancel out the difference in quality of the electronics. Furthermore, even modest Sony SACD players do a pretty damn good job with SACDs.
For myself, I would never now be satisfied with only owning a modest SACD/CD player. I have many more CDs than SACDs. If I had a choice between a "great" CDP and on "OK" SACD/CD or universal player, I would go with the great CDP every time. What I am saying, if someone already has a good CD player, and is interested in exploring SACD, they won't be wasting their money if they buy a modest Sony SACD player.

[SLOCOOKN]

Not that I was expecting a miracle or anything....But I found out mine is PCM...That sucks:(.....Thanks for the good info shack! :)

[heiney9]

Not all SACDs are created equally. In some, the engineering masters really capture the potential of the format and its inherent advantages, and in other cases they don't. When they don't, a high end CDP wll no doubt sound better. But when they do, the inherent superiority of the SACD format can more than cancel out the difference in quality of the electronics.

So magically, inferior electronics can be overcome by a little bit of extra resolution and a knowledgeable mastering engineer :confused: . That's never been my experience.

Shack, I get what you are saying and I am probably taking my bias to the extreme, so our thinking is really more convergent rather than divergent. SACD format is formidable when done correctly and played on a dedicated machine. Most of my comments were for those who believe that SACD is superior to redbook no matter what.

You guys have got my juices flowing so I may go out and get a good mid-level SACD player and some of what is considered better SACD titles and do a very critical shoot-out for myself. Of course finding stellar redbook cd's that correspond to stellar SACD's might be a bit of a challenge.

H9

[shack]

So magically, inferior electronics can be overcome by a little bit of extra resolution and a knowledgeable mastering engineer :confused: . That's never been my experience.

This may be a little of where you are getting hung up. In today's digitalized transistor and chip world the simlarities between the high dollar reference CDP and the average CDP are much greater than the differences. A cap here, a chip set there, a clock here and they are very close. Many of the high end and low production CDPs are based off of Sony and Philips transports and boards. The current be all - end all player seems to be the Oppo which gets raves from every quarter. Granted, a lot is the "look what you get for $150 - $200" stuff but there are those who swear it betters most anything available today. The truth and reality is somewhere in between I guess. I have had several average SACD players go through my rig. Some better that others. I currently have one that cost less than $200 street that with about $100 worth of parts is now a player I would stack up against some of the best I've heard. It's not THE best...but it is pretty damn good.

Like you said...we really are closer than apart in our opinions. I like SACD beacuse it is music that for the most part can sound very good with modest gear and without constant tweeking. I wish there was more of it and take every opportunity to "preach". Maybe one day I'll be in Ted and F1's league and get me one of those really nice SACD players....

[snow]

This may be a little of where you are getting hung up. In today's digitalized transistor and chip world the simlarities between the high dollar reference CDP and the average CDP are much greater than the differences. A cap here, a chip set there, a clock here and they are very close. Many of the high end and low production CDPs are based off of Sony and Philips transports and boards. The current be all - end all player seems to be the Oppo which gets raves from every quarter. Granted, a lot is the "look what you get for $150 - $200" stuff but there are those who swear it betters most anything available today. The truth and reality is somewhere in between I guess. I have had several average SACD players go through my rig. Some better that others. I currently have one that cost less than $200 street that with about $100 worth of parts is now a player I would stack up against some of the best I've heard. It's not THE best...but it is pretty damn good.

Like you said...we really are closer than apart in our opinions. I like SACD beacuse it is music that for the most part can sound very good with modest gear and without constant tweeking. I wish there was more of it and take every opportunity to "preach". Maybe one day I'll be in Ted and F1's league and get me one of those really nice SACD players....well ill throw my 2 cents into the mix. first off i want to say great thread. well thought out replys to questions and comments by all. and hey its even been civil:p i currently have one of the oppo players mentioned earlier. ilistened to several discs this week on it. CD SACD DVDA. some were hybrid . some were not.i used the analogs ins on my lexicon MC-1 pre-pro in 2 channel only through the 2nd room inputs, so there was no extra conversion going on. the first disc was one by the police. of which i have both a cd and sacd version of. my impression was the sacd version was much better than the cd was. the second disc was a dire straits album which had a cd side a sacd side and a hdcd layer all in multi channel. both the cd side and hdcd side sounded much better than the sacd side did. the 3rd disc was an emerson lake and palmer DVDA which sounded great. the 4th disc was roger waters which i have a dvd of and a sacd of the same. i listened to the sacd first i was not impressed it sounded better but not by much. the reason that i think that the sacd disc didnt sound better perhaps is that it was recorded in 5.1 and i listened to it in 2 channel. the police album being recorded in 2 channel sounded much better in comparison on the sacd version than the dire straits and roger waters did. this may be because the oppo multi player didnt do a great job perhaps in trying to downmix multi channel into 2 channel. im not sure. to sum it all up it seemed that some discs sounded better on cd than sacd. others seem to sound better on sacd if played in the recorded format. so at this time im undecided. my guess is that if its the same material and played in the correct format that most times it will sound better on sacd than cd. and that some cds sound better than other sacds. REGARDS SNOW

[F1nut]

I've got Dire Straits BIA on every available redbook release including the Hong Kong only release on XRCD. The SACD version is, by far, the best of the lot. Try it in something other than the OPPO.

[tonyb]

I have Sultans of swing playing right now.Love Dire Straits.Even the redbook is a well recorded cd.Thanks for the tip on the XRCD version.They want 40 bucks for that puppy.I'll dig up the SACD if you say it rocks.

[snow]

I've got Dire Straits BIA on every available redbook release including the Hong Kong only release on XRCD. The SACD version is, by far, the best of the lot. Try it in something other than the OPPO. i will do that. i will also get a pre with 5.1 inputs to test the diffrent layers on with the oppo player to see if the sound improves greatly when played in 5.1 rather than it downmixed to 2 channel to see if thats where the problem lies. REGARDS SNOW

[hearingimpared]

This is a great thread! I'm learning lots. I'm going to have to get me or rent me a good SACD player the check all this out. I just purchased DSOTM and Jazz at the Pawnshop on SACD. After reading this thread the DSOTM disc sounds like it's going to be a bust with the Oppo on 2 ch SACD. I am still really excited to hear 2 ch SACD finally. I will have my turntable up and hopefully running by tomorrow night and can't wait to hear SACD vs vinyl. I realize that the Oppo isn't a high or higher end SACD player. I have a friend (Phil) who is coming over Saturday who has a SACD player that was over the $1k mark who is currently not using it so I'm going to ask him to bring it with him so we can give it a whirl.

[F1nut]

Tony, the XRCD is better than the redbook DDD CD and I was very happy with it until I got the SACD. There's just more there, there.

[Danny Tse]

There's just more there, there.

I agree. It's hard to describe, but a good sounding SACD such as Steely Dan's "Gaucho" or Dire Straits' BIA makes listening more pleasurable....even with modest gear.

[snow]

This is a great thread! I'm learning lots. I'm going to have to get me or rent me a good SACD player the check all this out. I just purchased DSOTM and Jazz at the Pawnshop on SACD. After reading this thread the DSOTM disc sounds like it's going to be a bust with the Oppo on 2 ch SACD. I am still really excited to hear 2 ch SACD finally. I will have my turntable up and hopefully running by tomorrow night and can't wait to hear SACD vs vinyl. I realize that the Oppo isn't a high or higher end SACD player. I have a friend (Phil) who is coming over Saturday who has a SACD player that was over the $1k mark who is currently not using it so I'm going to ask him to bring it with him so we can give it a whirl. the very first sacd i listened to was dsotm on a cheap sony player $250.00 or so retail it took my breath away. i have wanted a sacd player every since. the receiver i had at the time was a sony DA5-ES and Jbl-L100t speakers as mains jbl-L80t3s for sides and jbl-L112s as center and rear surround. decent little home theater system at the time. it will be real interesting to hear your oppinion on the upcoming playoff between the 2 players.i hope you were wowed like i was, when i first heard it on sacd. i have it coming now via amazon now. i will report back then as to how it sounds then on the oppo with a friends adcom 880 pre on 2 channel and multi channel. REGARDS SNOW

[dagame27]

I am curious as to how this thread proceeds, as I have found a significant difference between sacd and redbook. However I have found this difference on the same playerk, a Sony 9000ES. I may rethink my upgrade path if others do not see a significant difference on their systems. I do believe a DAC is in my future, but I am curious if SACD beats redbook CD on high end systems of both ends. If both SACD and redbook are played on high end rigs, is SACD noticeably better?

[F1nut]

If both SACD and redbook are played on high end rigs, is SACD noticeably better?


Yes. See my comments on page one.

[pblanc]

At the risk of being offensive by stating the bloody obvious, I am going to make some comments which might be helpful to those who have never tried SACD. I have found that some of my friends who were dissapointed with SACD really weren't listening to SACD.

First, although SACD has the capability to be a multi-channel format, a good many SACDs are recorded in good, old 2 channel stereo. Second, some disks are hybrid, multilayer recordings that have both a regular Redbook CD layer and an SACD (stereo or multichannel) layer. These disks can be played on either a regular CDP or an SACD player. Third, the output from a Sony SACD player playing an SACD layer is analog only. That means you have to have analog connections to your amp or receiver. If you just have a digital connection, you won't get output from the SACD layer. Fourth, if you just have a stereo L/R analog collection, you can play stereo SACDs but you are going to miss out the extra channel info if you don't have 6 analog interconnects between your player and your receiver, if you play a multichannel SACD. Fifth, you have to set your amp or receiver to "multichannel direct" or "multichannel analog" or "multichannel 5.1 input" or whatever. If you don't, and your SACD player is connected with both 5.1 analog and digital cannections, when you play a hybrid SACD you will be listening to the digital output of the player which will not be the SACD layer. Sixth, most players have the capability to choose to play either the CD layer or the SACD layer. If your player is inadverently set to play the CD layer, you won't be hearing SACD even if you have already done all of the above. Seventh, even if you have balanced all your speakers through your amplifier or receiver, when you hook up your SACD player, you are going to have to go through its menu to teach it your speaker sizes, distances and balance your speaker levels for the player. When you are playing an SACD you are directly outputing the 5.1 analog inputs to your amp section without processing. Last (I know...thank God) SACD does not always do a good job with bass management. If your sub is hooked up via your receiver's LFE output, there may be little, if any info encoded on the subwoofer channel of the SACD. For this reason, I have my full-range speakers set to "large" and I use a pair of small stereo subwoofers hooked up to the L/R front outputs in addition to a larger sub hooked up to the LFE output.

I know most of you know this, but believe me, I have known more than a couple of folks who went out and bought an SACD player, hooked it up with digital interconnects only, or analog stereo interconnects only, didn't balance their speakers, didn't read the instructions, popped in a hybrid CD/SACD, and said "crap, this sounds just like regular CD".

[hearingimpared]

At the risk of being offensive by stating the bloody obvious, I am going to make some comments which might be helpful to those who have never tried SACD. I have found that some of my friends who were dissapointed with SACD really weren't listening to SACD.

First, although SACD has the capability to be a multi-channel format, a good many SACDs are recorded in good, old 2 channel stereo. Second, some disks are hybrid, multilayer recordings that have both a regular Redbook CD layer and an SACD (stereo or multichannel) layer. These disks can be played on either a regular CDP or an SACD player. Third, the output from a Sony SACD player playing an SACD layer is analog only. That means you have to have analog connections to your amp or receiver. If you just have a digital connection, you won't get output from the SACD layer. Fourth, if you just have a stereo L/R analog collection, you can play stereo SACDs but you are going to miss out the extra channel info if you don't have 6 analog interconnects between your player and your receiver, if you play a multichannel SACD. Fifth, you have to set your amp or receiver to "multichannel direct" or "multichannel analog" or "multichannel 5.1 input" or whatever. If you don't, and your SACD player is connected with both 5.1 analog and digital cannections, when you play a hybrid SACD you will be listening to the digital output of the player which will not be the SACD layer. Sixth, most players have the capability to choose to play either the CD layer or the SACD layer. If your player is inadverently set to play the CD layer, you won't be hearing SACD even if you have already done all of the above. Seventh, even if you have balanced all your speakers through your amplifier or receiver, when you hook up your SACD player, you are going to have to go through its menu to teach it your speaker sizes, distances and balance your speaker levels for the player. When you are playing an SACD you are directly outputing the 5.1 analog inputs to your amp section without processing. Last (I know...thank God) SACD does not always do a good job with bass management. If your sub is hooked up via your receiver's LFE output, there may be little, if any info encoded on the subwoofer channel of the SACD. For this reason, I have my full-range speakers set to "large" and I use a pair of small stereo subwoofers hooked up to the L/R front outputs in addition to a larger sub hooked up to the LFE output.

I know most of you know this, but believe me, I have known more than a couple of folks who went out and bought an SACD player, hooked it up with digital interconnects only, or analog stereo interconnects only, didn't balance their speakers, didn't read the instructions, popped in a hybrid CD/SACD, and said "crap, this sounds just like regular CD".

Oh brother!!! I have an Oppo 970HD. I currently have the digital output going to a Timbre DAC and it sounds good for CDs. I have two ICs connected from the Left & Right RCA outs of the Oppo to my tape loop "in" on my preamp in anticipation of receiving my first SACDs. I was under the impression I could just place the SACD in the tray close it and the Oppo will automatically choose the format. I hope I don't have to go through all the gyrations above to listen to an SACD. I don't mind going through all the set up of a turntable / tonearm/ cartridge combo, that's expected to get the best SQ out of that analog front end. Call me old fashioned but with digital mediums I want to plug it in and enjoy it, not have to tinker with it.

As a matter of fact I've been reading a lot about SACD, HT, etc here in preparation for my two HT systems that I am currently building and frankly I find all these gyrations a little intimidating and I'm and electronics guy.

Oh well that is the way it is, no?

[cfrizz]

LOL nice reminder PB! I was one of those people way back when! Audio gear set up has gotten so technical & complicated that unless someone puts it in plain english like you just did, you could very well be missing a step!

[steveinaz]

btw, Shack-master, my DSOTM is a hybrid. The denon was displaying "SACD" while it was playing, so I'm assuming I was hearing the SACD layer. It definitely had a different "character" to the sound vs the 24bit remaster redbook when A/B'ing.

If I had to sum up in 1 word what I heard with the SACD version vs the redbook, it would be "fatter." Almost akin to pressing a "loudness" button on a receiver. Bass was heavier, but not necessarily deeper; midrange more forward; treble (cymbals specifically) a touch more real with the SACD. I will confess the Redbook version was a little more analytical sounding, where the SACD was soft, plump.

Listening again last night, and thinking more about it, I recalled that the Energy C-9 is fairly heavy in mid-bass; and midrange in this speaker is on the cold side of neutral---in SACD's defense. But these characteristics are exactly what help mediocre redbook recordings sound fuller and less 2-dimensional. FWIW.

I think if you had a good quality SACD player, and ran the redbook side into a good external DAC, you'd have a killer combo--if that's what you're after.

[F1nut]

I will confess the Redbook version was a little more analytical sounding, where the SACD was soft, plump.


Ed Z

[Danny Tse]

I was under the impression I could just place the SACD in the tray close it and the Oppo will automatically choose the format.

If you have a multi-channel hybrid SACD, there're at the minimum 3 versions* of the same album on that one disc....the CD version, the hi-rez 2 channel stereo and the hi-rez multi-channel. The player will not automatically know which version you want to play. However, I would imagine the Oppo will allow you to set a "preference" so that when you insert a SACD, it will play the mix you "prefer".

* Since the Oppo can decode HDCD, it may be possible to play the CD layer, if HDCD-encoded, with or without the decoding....which would give you four versions of the same album on one disc....decoded HDCD, undecoded HDCD, hi-rez 2 channel stereo and hi-rez multi-channel. Of course, this is assuming the HDCD decoding can be turned on/off.

[Lsi9]

I am wondering while reading this thread if Multichannel music in general is dying out?

Dvd-A sales are lower so that would let you assume that SACD sales are way up but I guess this is not the case?
You guys think these 2 formats are now or soon to be dinosaurs even though they might have superior sound quality?

I have heard SACD and it sounds great but what turns me off is all the set up as well, I wish they would just do 2 channel discs with no hybrid option and be done with it.

[Danny Tse]

I have heard SACD and it sounds great but what turns me off is all the set up as well, I wish they would just do 2 channel discs with no hybrid option and be done with it.

Sony/Philips mandated that every SACD MUST contain a dedicated 2 channel stereo (or mono) mix. In fact, the CD layer and the multi-channel hi-rez mix are entirely optional. As usual, there are a number of "maverick" labels that release SACDs with no 2 channel hi-rez mixes, but those can be counted on the fingers of one hand (out of over 4,300 SACD titles). Look further and you will also notice that the current top-of-the-line SACD players from the likes of Marantz, Denon, and Sony are all 2 channel only machines.

In regards to whether multi-channel music is dying out, I think there are enough audiophiles out there that certain labels (such as Telarc) and artists (such as Tony Banks of Genesis and Justin Hayward of the Moody Blues) are willing to cater to them. For the general public, multi-channel music usually means concert videos, which to me means a whole different thing from studio recordings/creations. Those who dig multi-channel music, as in studio recordings, will always be in the minority.

I hate the complicated setups myself....which is why I am sticking with 2 channel stereo setups. I have a $150.00 Sony SCD-CE595 SACD/CD changer connected to Grado SR60 headphones (using a Technics Pro-Logic receiver as headphone amp) as my headphone system. A couple of setting on the Sony player and it defaults to 2 channel SACD whenever I insert a SACD into it. And only one pair of analog interconnects in the whole setup.

[shack]

I have heard SACD and it sounds great but what turns me off is all the set up as well, I wish they would just do 2 channel discs with no hybrid option and be done with it.

Problem there is you are limiting the market even more. Some like myself only like stereo SACD, others enjoy the multi-channel. If you limit it to one or the other, the format probably is doomed. If the format does indeed fail sometime down the road, at least with hybrid you have some backward compatability. Playing a SACD is easier than playing a DVD. Set your machine default and you're good to go. I know on the Sonys I own all you do is punch a button on the remote it's 2 channel SACD. Punch another it's multi-channel SACD. Put the disc in a non-SACD CDP and it plays redbook. Really very simple.

[hearingimpared]

Is anyone familiar with the Oppo's setup? I've been using it as a CD transport and have no clue on SACD setup. I'll breakout the user guide. . .I think I remember reading somewhere that it should be connected to a display or a GUI to ease setup.

[snow]

Is anyone familiar with the Oppo's setup? I've been using it as a CD transport and have no clue on SACD setup. I'll breakout the user guide. . .I think I remember reading somewhere that it should be connected to a display or a GUI to ease setup. yes hook it up via component or hdmi for video. then choose the setup button on the remote. hit the select button when the general set up page appears, use the down arrow button to get to sacd priority. then hit the large select again to select 2 channel. then hit the right arrow button to get to the speaker set up page. hit the large select button again it will light up on down mix. hit the select button again. choose stereo for sacd. turn the center side and rear speakers off with the same method. then choose the right arrow again to get the audio set up page. select digital output to raw. lpcm rate to 192. when you hook up the analog outs. use the mixed L-R outputs rather than the front L-R outputs on the 5.1 outputs also. if you are using an hdmi cable i believe you can output both sacd and DVDA through the hdmi. i dont have that option available myself so i cant say for sure. i hope this helps. REGARDS SNOW

[reeltrouble1]

Joe,

you will see 6 hole looking things coming from the back of the player, if you want multi-channel plug six connects into the holes then plug the other end of the connect to the receiver/pre which has six corresponding holes. Then run speaker wire to each speaker, they have holes too, well some bind, some spring, so its a hybrid hole. If you only want stereo you only need to worry about the holes for front left and right.

really its about the holes.

Holy Cow.

RT1, and SACD is great.

[hearingimpared]

yes hook it up via component or hdmi for video. then choose the setup button on the remote. hit the select button when the general set up page appears, use the down arrow button to get to sacd priority. then hit the large select again to select 2 channel. then hit the right arrow button to get to the speaker set up page. hit the large select button again it will light up on down mix. hit the select button again. choose stereo for sacd. turn the center and rear speaker off with the same method. then choose the right arrow again to get the audio set up page. select digital output to raw. lpcm rate to 192. when you hook up the analog outs. use the mixed L-R outputs rather than the front L-R outputs on the 5.1 outputs also. if you are using an hdmi cable i believe you can output both sacd and DVDA through the hdmi. i dont have that option available myself so i cant say for sure. i hope this helps. REGARDS SNOW


Whooooo there Kimosabe. . . I have a regular TV with no component or hdmi ports. I was hoping to be able to plug my stereo RCA ICs into right & left jacks and go to the tape loop of my preamp and place an SACD in the tray and listen. . . it's not that easy is it.

The projector is in the box and the room is not ready for the HT rig yet in the media room. Only the 2 ch rig is running. The flat screen is a pipe dream right now for me and my wife and won't be in the living room HT rig for a month or two yet.

Thanks Snow for all your help.

[hearingimpared]

Joe,

you will see 6 hole looking things coming from the back of the player, if you want multi-channel plug six connects into the holes then plug the other end of the connect to the receiver/pre which has six corresponding holes. Then run speaker wire to each speaker, they have holes too, well some bind, some spring, so its a hybrid hole. If you only want stereo you only need to worry about the holes for front left and right.

really its about the holes.

Holy Cow.

RT1, and SACD is great.

Holy Mixup Batman Which Hole Do You Prefer???

[snow]

Whooooo there Kimosabe. . . I have a regular TV with no component or hdmi ports. I was hoping to be able to plug my stereo RCA ICs into right & left jacks and go to the tape loop of my preamp and place an SACD in the tray and listen. . . it's not that easy is it.

The projector is in the box and the room is not ready for the HT rig yet in the media room. Only the 2 ch rig is running. The flat screen is a pipe dream right now for me and my wife and won't be in the living room HT rig for a month or two yet.

Thanks Snow for all your help. Your welcome joe. i (assumed) that your current display had component or hdmi inputs. in the current set up plug into the regular video output on the oppo. hook the stereo L-R jacks to the mixed L-R outputs not the L-R outputs on the standard 5.1 outputs this way when you get to the options mentioned earlier. it will downmix all 5.1 material to 2 channel stereo and output it through those outputs. i think you can simply plug and play if you wish. but to achieve the best sound its best to go through the setup options mentioned in the first post. of course now through the regular video output. versus the component or hdmi output options. REGARDS SNOW

[tonyb]

Holy Mixup Batman Which Hole Do You Prefer???

Now if that ain't a loaded question.......

[heiney9]

Holy Mixup Batman Which Hole Do You Prefer???

Since we are talking audio I'd say the one in the rear..........we are talking audio right :eek:

[reeltrouble1]

Holy Mixup Batman Which Hole Do You Prefer???

Waaaaaaaaa, Joe you are wide open, but I will not do it.

I prefer the holes marked Stereo, ie R and L, most machines auto sense an SACD just hook the connects for the fronts, read your manual and see how to set your machine to default to the stereo layer.

RT1

[TN_Polk_Lover]

Wow! This is a great thread. I don't own an SACD player, but have often thought about getting one. I've really learned a lot from this thread. I love this forum! Thanks guys!

[TN_Polk_Lover]

I should have said "Thanks guys and gals!" Didn't mean to come across as too sexist.

[hearingimpared]

Your welcome joe. i (assumed) that your current display had component or hdmi inputs. in the current set up plug into the regular video output on the oppo. hook the stereo L-R jacks to the mixed L-R outputs not the L-R outputs on the standard 5.1 outputs this way when you get to the options mentioned earlier. it will downmix all 5.1 material to 2 channel stereo and output it through those outputs. i think you can simply plug and play if you wish. but to achieve the best sound its best to go through the setup options mentioned in the first post. of course now through the regular video output. versus the component or hdmi output options. REGARDS SNOW


Hey Bro how about if I don't have a display in the room with the Oppo can I use the display on the front of the player to do the setup?

[snow]

Hey Bro how about if I don't have a display in the room with the Oppo can I use the display on the front of the player to do the setup? no it wont display the menus on the player itself. i suggest bringing the player to wherever the nearest display is. setting it up, then taking the player back to the room where it will be used. the settings will remain where you left them at until you change it again. REGARDS SNOW

[hearingimpared]

First off I can't play SACDs on my Oppo until I hook it up to a TV and do a setup. I'll have to do what Snow sugggested and bring it to the TV in the living room. . . I don't have any high end video as of yet.

Phil (peasall001) came over to today to check out my rig, brought over a cheapy $150 Sony CD/SACD changer. We played two SACDs; Pink Floyd, "DSOTM" & Proprius: Arne Dominerus Group, "Jazz at the Pawnshop (JATP)." without an A/B against the same titled redbook CD.

I was completely blown away. The best way for me to describe what I heard was that there was more information, clarity, detail and downright punch just like the audiophile LP versions of the same titles. The imaging was pinpoint accurate especially with the JATP as I am very very familiar with this recording and where the musicians are positioned on the stage as per descriptions and pictures by Gert Palmcrantz the audio engineer who recored these live sessions. When I played those titles with the redbook CDs (w/Marigo stabilizing mat) with the Oppo connected to my $4000 Timbre DAC with a digital cable there was no comparison the SACDs kicked butt. Now granted the Oppo isn't a high end player but after all I am just using the transport directly to the expensive great performing DAC.

Now I've been reading the two threads "God I love SACD" & this one and I have seen a few people say that their expensive redbook front end beats SACD. Based on what I heard today on those two recordings, I have to say that my first experience with SACD today on a cheapy SACD changer made me a believer in SACDs as the much better performer than the redbook CDs.

I listened to those recordings several times using both formats. . . there is simply no comparison. Now I don't know if I could possibly agree that SACD is as good as or better than vinyl. . . that remains to be seen and I willl know that better when I get my turntable up and running.

I'm wondering if I will notice the same differences and improvements with other recordings on SACD.

I don't know about the sound of a high end SACD player but I was very impressed with SACD on Phil's cheapy Sony.

Joe

[ben62670]

Now only if the record companies would try to actually market the higher quality of SACD then maybe just maybe they would sell a couple of them.

Ben

Oh yeah I just bought DSOTM today also.. very nice very nice indeed.

[snow]

im glad you liked it joe. its funny because i would buy an album of something i really dont like of hi res music, to hear the instruments. but i would never buy a cd of the same. its too bad you couldndt turn off the vocals at times.:D
REGARDS SNOW

[cfrizz]

I'm glad you enjoyed your first taste of SACD sound Joe. DVD-A's are just as good.

[snow]

I'm glad you enjoyed your first taste of SACD sound Joe. DVD-A's are just as good. emerson lake palmer- brain salad surgery on DVDA is incredibile. REGARDS SNOW

[hearingimpared]

I'm glad you enjoyed your first taste of SACD sound Joe. DVD-A's are just as good.

ATTA GIRL get me obsessing over something else . . . My wife is already doing the wind up because she heard me tell Phil that I'm going to have to replace the redbooks with SACDs!!!!

[shack]

What have I been trying to tell you Joe. Sony gets it right when it comes to SACD. Sure there are better...but the bang for the buck quotient is high.

[ben62670]

What have I been trying to tell you Joe. Sony gets it right when it comes to SACD. Sure there are better...but the bang for the buck quotient is high.

I love my Sony SACD player, and I have a pretty hi res system. Its not what a lot of guys have here, but its way better than anything you would buy in BB or CC. I was listening to Allison Krause (I can't spell) and her vocals just gave me goose bumps. Then my friend walked in and it gave him goose bumps, and then this girl who doesn't say much, or smile that much walked in, and she just had a big o'll smile on her face.

Gotta love it.

Ben

[snow]

I love my Sony SACD player, and I have a pretty hi res system. Its not what a lot of guys have here, but its way better than anything you would buy in BB or CC. I was listening to Allison Krause (I can't spell) and her vocals just gave me goose bumps. Then my friend walked in and it gave him goose bumps, and then this girl who doesn't say much, or smile that much walked in, and she just had a big o'll smile on her face.

Gotta love it.

Ben agreed on all counts, sony makes nice SACD players and allison krauss is awesome.allison krauss and union station live. has to be heard to be believed. she is one of those rare talents that when she sings it looks effortless. its like honey for the ears.:D REGARDS SNOW

[SCompRacer]

I don't know about the sound of a high end SACD player....
Joe

How would you like to find out with a used modded SACD player? Like a one week trial thing, then I put it up for sale.

[reeltrouble1]

over 4 times the sample rate and millions more bit quatization levels for dynamics, it can't help but be better, because it is better software, many times better.

It just has to be there on the master tapes then transfered correctly to the disc.

I think it was F1 who said when done correctly SACD is Glorious.

Better than vinyl, well, eye of the beholder and all that, I cannot decide, sometimes I favor one over the other for a bit, they are just different. If you cannot stand the occasional pop or click, stay with the SACD.

waaaaaaaa, one week trial, evil Rich, devilishy evil.....Joe has got it bad.

RT1

[hearingimpared]

How would you like to find out with a used modded SACD player? Like a one week trial thing, then I put it up for sale.

For real???

[ben62670]

allison krauss and union station live. has to be heard to be believed. she is one of those rare talents that when she sings it looks effortless. its like honey for the ears.:D REGARDS SNOW

Sweet sweet sweet. When they heard it they couldn't believe how good it sounded, and then I told my friend it was live he nearly crapped a brick. He is a musician himself (he definately is no A.K.)

[hearingimpared]

Okay I hit a snag here. I got the Oppo set up to detect and play SACDs when in the tray. BUT THIS IS PISSING ME OFF!!! I put my new SACD copy of DSOTM. Ya know the first five tracks how they blend into each other. . . not so here. Every time the track changes to the next there is a slight stoppage of the music it switches tracks then continues on. I've heard this before on bad burn jobs on CDs but this seems to be the Oppo.

Anyone have any thoughts?

[snow]

Okay I hit a snag here. I got the Oppo set up to detect and play SACDs when in the tray. BUT THIS IS PISSING ME OFF!!! I put my new SACD copy of DSOTM. Ya know the first five tracks how they blend into each other. . . not so here. Every time the track changes to the next there is a slight stoppage of the music it switches tracks then continues on. I've heard this before on bad burn jobs on CDs but this seems to be the Oppo.

Anyone have any thoughts? yes its a problem that the player has with a few discs. DSOTM is one of them. go here to get a fix. it is the latest firmware upgrade in beta form. http://www.oppodigital.com/dv970hd/dv970hd-firmware-4a-1220.html it should fix that problem. REGARDS SNOW

[shack]

Okay I hit a snag here. I got the Oppo set up to detect and play SACDs when in the tray. BUT THIS IS PISSING ME OFF!!! I put my new SACD copy of DSOTM. Ya know the first five tracks how they blend into each other. . . not so here. Every time the track changes to the next there is a slight stoppage of the music it switches tracks then continues on. I've heard this before on bad burn jobs on CDs but this seems to be the Oppo.

Anyone have any thoughts?

It is a glitch in the machine. Oppo has inserted a 2-3 second pause beteen tracks on ALL SACD playback. Not in any other format. Supposedly there is a beta firmware upgrade that will eliminate the problem. It should be available on the machines in a couple of months.

[snow]

It is a glitch in the machine. Oppo has inserted a 2-3 second pause beteen tracks on ALL SACD playback. Not in any other format. Supposedly there is a beta firmware upgrade that will eliminate the problem. It should be available on the machines in a couple of months. here is the fix for it. http://www.oppodigital.com/dv970hd/dv970hd-firmware-4a-1220.html REGARDS SNOW

[shack]

I don't need a fix. I don't own one. Don't want one. Not going to get one.

[snow]

I don't need a fix. I don't own one. Don't want one. Not going to get one. ok.:D

[hearingimpared]

I don't need a fix. I don't own one. Don't want one. Not going to get one.


I do need a fix. I have one. Have no choice. Wife really fed up with the spending.:mad: :rolleyes:

PS: she broke balls tonight after Phil left because she thought that he brought over a very high end SACD player today and heard me raving about the sound. She of course assumed that I was going to spend another K on this hobby. I assured her that I absolutely wasn't going to do something like that. The question is how do I do something like that without lying to her.:rolleyes: :p

[reeltrouble1]

wattayouwantforafranklinortwo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Its a video machine that plays high rez., not the other way around.

You just have to hum to yourself for the little 2-3 sec. break, use your imagination my good man, tap your foot a few times and I am glad you found the holes.

Besides forwards or backwards its an oppo, its confused. It was built by committee, including members of the bean counters, not an audio nut like you who knows this pause is incorrect.

Breathe, Breathe in the air..........

RT1

[snow]

for any who want the fix here it is for the 3rd time. lmaoooo. http://www.oppodigital.com/dv970hd/dv970hd-firmware-4a-1220.html

[SCompRacer]

For real???

For real. I should have it back next week. It is a ModWright Sony 999ES with Platinum Level Signature Truth Mods and clock upgrade. Platinum Level includes the AC and Slipstream Bybee filters. The power supply for the tubes is SS. The tube power supply umbilical cord is copper by Acoustic Zen. Try it and let me know what you think.

I sent it back to Dan late December because it had a sticky drawer I wanted repaired or replaced. I was also going to upgrade to the tube rectified power supply which significantly improves detail and seperation. He was getting ready for T.H.E. Show and offered me deal I could not refuse on a 9100 demo. He allowed me to cancel the tube PS and put the money towards the 9100. Only drawback was waiting for it.

[hearingimpared]

for any who want the fix here it is for the 3rd time. lmaoooo. http://www.oppodigital.com/dv970hd/dv970hd-firmware-4a-1220.html


Thanks Snow I saved the link in my favorites folder in my upgrades subfolder.

Unfortunetely you have me confused with a guy who has a CD burner. Oh wait a minute that's what that silly thing in the new computer I have is. How come there is only one tray???

[hearingimpared]

wattayouwantforafranklinortwo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Its a video machine that plays high rez., not the other way around.

You just have to hum to yourself for the little 2-3 sec. break, use your imagination my good man, tap your foot a few times and I am glad you found the holes.

Besides forwards or backwards its an oppo, its confused. It was built by committee, including members of the bean counters, not an audio nut like you who knows this pause is incorrect.

Breathe, Breathe in the air..........

RT1


Oh maaaaannnnn! I knew this wasn't going to be a good $150 spent despite Chris Martens stellar review in TAS.:mad: Once again, I should have listned to Jesse!:o

[reeltrouble1]

Joe,

Do not lie to the wife, give her a big hug and tell her thank you for everything. She digs the hobby, enjoy it with her and the offer to demo from Rich on the Sony.

RT1

[hearingimpared]

Joe,

Do not lie to the wife, give her a big hug and tell her thank you for everything. She digs the hobby, enjoy it with her and the offer to demo from Rich on the Sony.

RT1


TED I have never lied to her . . . well one white lie and I have been regretting that since I did it. Sometimes it really drives me nuts so I know as I know that the Lord is right here with me that I will never lie to her again not a white one nor any color.

[Danny Tse]

Oh maaaaannnnn! I knew this wasn't going to be a good $150 spent despite Chris Martens stellar review in TAS.:mad: Once again, I should have listned to Jesse!:o

By all indications I've read, the Oppo firm does fix the problem of putting gaps in between tracks.

[reeltrouble1]

Oppo needs Joe on their staff, I am glad they want to fix the problem, its a good thing that their are affordable entry level units for all areas of audio.

On the other end, I see where NAIM has introduced a Redbook only player for 28,000, wow.

RT1

[pblanc]

It must not be an issue limited to Oppo. My Sony 999ES also pauses for less than a second between chapters on the multichannel SACD layer of that disk.

[hearingimpared]

Oppo needs Joe on their staff, I am glad they want to fix the problem, its a good thing that their are affordable entry level units for all areas of audio.

Unfortunately if I worked for Oppo their $150 entry level unit would end up costing $1500 and it would cost the company $15000 to make it.;) :D :p

On the other end, I see where NAIM has introduced a Redbook only player for 28,000, wow.

RT1


My wife said I could buy the NAIM when she gets done decorating.:D

[SCompRacer]

My wife said I could buy the NAIM when she gets done decorating.:D

Does she really think your nards will fetch that much on ebay?:D

[pblanc]

Clever. Very clever. Everbody knows wives never finish decorating. Have you finished buying electronic gear?

[pblanc]

I can see it now: "FS: Husband's left testicle, used. No Reserve! See my other auctions for Husband's right testicle, and other body parts"

[hearingimpared]

Clever. Very clever. Everbody knows wives never finish decorating. Have you finished buying electronic gear?

And there in lies the Catch 22!!!

[hearingimpared]

I can see it now: "FS: Husband's left testicle, used. No Reserve! See my other auctions for Husband's right testicle, and other body parts"


I thought that was a possibility but now I've been assured that the jewels will only be super-glued to the right leg. Ouch!!!:eek:

[hearingimpared]

I just read all the instructions for the firmware upgrade. Has anyone actually used this? There seems to be a catch and it can cause other problems so I would rather wait to do this until I hear back from someone who has actually used this patch on an Oppo DV 970.

Thanks,
Joe

[cfrizz]

Snort, choke, WAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!:D Tread veeeery carefully Joe!:eek: :D

Quote:
Originally Posted by pblanc
I can see it now: "FS: Husband's left testicle, used. No Reserve! See my other auctions for Husband's right testicle, and other body parts"

Quote:
Originally Posted by hearingimpared
I thought that was a possibility but now I've been assured that the jewels will only be super-glued to the right leg. Ouch!!!

[hearingimpared]

Snort, choke, WAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!:D Tread veeeery carefully Joe!:eek: :D

Quote:
Originally Posted by pblanc
I can see it now: "FS: Husband's left testicle, used. No Reserve! See my other auctions for Husband's right testicle, and other body parts"

Quote:
Originally Posted by hearingimpared
I thought that was a possibility but now I've been assured that the jewels will only be super-glued to the right leg. Ouch!!!


Back in the early 1980s a woman in Northern PA was arrested for assault with intent to maim. She had superglued her husbands full package to his thigh for cheating on her. I think she got a slap on the wrist and a ATTA Girl from the judge.

[hearingimpared]

Okay back to the SACDs. I did the Oppo firmware upgrade and did a critical listening session with DSOTM. I'm absolutely sold on SACD if this is what I can expect. I played a couple of tracks from the redbook DSOTM and found it sounding like someone threw a light blanket over my speakers. In a nutshell, SACD seems to extract every bit of information and reproduced what is on the master tape.

It sounds excellent on this entry level Oppo player, I can only imagine what it would sound like on a Class A player. I can't wait to get my TT rig up so I can do a comparison there.

[ben62670]

Okay back to the SACDs. I did the Oppo firmware upgrade and did a critical listening session with DSOTM. I'm absolutely sold on SACD if this is what I can expect. I played a couple of tracks from the redbook DSOTM and found it sounding like someone threw a light blanket over my speakers. In a nutshell, SACD seems to extract every bit of information and reproduced what is on the master tape.

It sounds excellent on this entry level Oppo player, I can only imagine what it would sound like on a Class A player. I can't wait to get my TT rig up so I can do a comparison there.

I listened to it twice today on my sony SACD changer. Once in 2 channel, andonce in 5.1. This is one of the few SACD's that I have found to be very entertaining in 5.1.

[hearingimpared]

I listened to it twice today on my sony SACD changer. Once in 2 channel, andonce in 5.1. This is one of the few SACD's that I have found to be very entertaining in 5.1.


Actually yesterday when Phil was here with his Sony SACD changer he didn't know that he had it set to 5.1 and when we listened to the first few moments of "Money" some of the cash register was missing. . .I was telling him if this is what SACD can do then I don't but then we rectified the problem and I was sold.

I would bet that DSOTM is awesome in 5.1 but I can't see just regular performances being good in multichannel. I've heard and watched a DVD of Dianna Krall "Live in Paris" and while she is really breathtaking to look at, I liked the way the music sounded better in the two channel rig.

[snow]

Okay back to the SACDs. I did the Oppo firmware upgrade and did a critical listening session with DSOTM. I'm absolutely sold on SACD if this is what I can expect. I played a couple of tracks from the redbook DSOTM and found it sounding like someone threw a light blanket over my speakers. In a nutshell, SACD seems to extract every bit of information and reproduced what is on the master tape.

It sounds excellent on this entry level Oppo player, I can only imagine what it would sound like on a Class A player. I can't wait to get my TT rig up so I can do a comparison there. glad it worked out for you on the firmware upgrade. and yes i think your right it should be a real treat on the modded sony 999ES mentioned earlier or some similar high end player. the oppo sure isnt going to beat one of them. but a $150.00 it gets you able to listen to more music. REGARDS SNOW

[Danny Tse]

I would bet that DSOTM is awesome in 5.1 but I can't see just regular performances being good in multichannel. I've heard and watched a DVD of Dianna Krall "Live in Paris" and while she is really breathtaking to look at, I liked the way the music sounded better in the two channel rig.

I am not familiar enough with DSOTM to say how it would sound in multi-channel. On the other hand, I have often read that the real "star" of the DSOTM SACD is the multi-channel mix.

[pblanc]

In general, I prefer SACD recorded in two channel. Multichannel can be good for live performances if the surround channels are only used to enhance the ambiance a bit. I agree that it really doesn't sound that natural if all of a sudden a sax comes in from your side (or, God forbid, your rear).

[hearingimpared]

Holy Mixup Batman Which Hole Do You Prefer???

.....:D

[Toka78]

hearingimpared,

Is your DSOTM the hybrid disc or were you comparing two different (ie, SACD-only and redbook) discs?

[hearingimpared]

hearingimpared,

Is your DSOTM the hybrid disc or were you comparing two different (ie, SACD-only and redbook) discs?

It is a hybrid. I compared it to the redbook copy that is from the box set Shine On.

[shack]

hearingimpared,

Is your DSOTM the hybrid disc or were you comparing two different (ie, SACD-only and redbook) discs?

There is no SACD only DSOTM disc. As stated earlier in this thread it was only issued as a hybrid. Steveinaz compared the 2 channel SACD mix of the SACD and a 24 bit redbook remaster.

[Toka78]

It is a hybrid. I compared it to the redbook copy that is from the box set Shine On.


Gotcha. I wanted to make sure you weren't comparing it to the redbook layer on the SACD, which is very poorly (accidentally? on purpose? both?) mastered.

[hearingimpared]

Okay, I did a semi blind taste test with my wife today (get your minds out of the gutter you perverts, not that).

With her in the recliner (sweet spot) with her eyes closed, I played the first track of DSOTM redbook then quickly switched to the SACD. Almost immediately when the SACD was playing she said, "oh wow, there is so much more there on the second one." So just to jazz things up I played the SACD again. She was still liked that version. I then played "Money" with the SACD, when it was finished, I put on the redbook and she said that it sounded like there was a sheet over the speakers and there were lots of things missing. Most notably the doubling WAWA of the guitar midstream.

Her biggest observation was that there was more information and details. She said that she could clearly here what was being said down to, "I've been working my bum off," all this she could not here clearly with the redbook.

So as to give this a fair shake, I played Jazz at the Pawnshop, "Lady Be Good" because she doesnt' like jazz and is not familiar with the material. She gave the same descriptions with one addition, she said with the SACD on she felt more like she was mingling in the audience.

My cheapy Oppo playing SACD kicks the stuffing out of my $4000 DAC with the Oppo as a transport. My son (the older) heard it yesterday, my wife today. . . these are people who would be happy listening to compressed music from an IPOD and I got the same response from both. My wife asked that I not replace all my CDs at one shot. . . LOL

The defense rests. . . .

[cfrizz]

Nice writeup Joe, & I think it is beyond cool that your wife is just as much into audio as you are!

Anyone that has fully working ears will quickly notice that the "sheet over the speakers" has been removed when they are listening to a SACD.

[hearingimpared]

Nice writeup Joe, & I think it is beyond cool that your wife is just as much into audio as you are!

Anyone that has fully working ears will quickly notice that the "sheet over the speakers" has been removed when they are listening to a SACD.

I only have one fully working ear and it sounded like a blanket was removed. I was just blown away that she said that, I thought that was one of our sayings.

[reeltrouble1]

There is no SACD only DSOTM disc.

There also is no Dark Side of The Moon. :D

RT1

[hearingimpared]

There also is no Dark Side of The Moon. :D

RT1

It's all DARK :p

[Danny Tse]

There is no SACD only DSOTM disc. As stated earlier in this thread it was only issued as a hybrid.

You guys are going to hate me for this....especially given that many of you own universal players.

Dark Side of the Moon is also available on DVD-A (http://www.highfidelityreview.com/reviews/review.asp?reviewnumber=12583627) ;) :eek:

[hearingimpared]

You guys are going to hate me for this....especially given that many of you own universal players.

Dark Side of the Moon is also available on DVD-A (http://www.highfidelityreview.com/reviews/review.asp?reviewnumber=12583627) ;) :eek:

My wife just asked me today not to replace all the CDs with SACDs at once. Now THIS:rolleyes: ;)

[snow]

My wife just asked me today not to replace all the CDs with SACDs at once. Now THIS:rolleyes: ;) grant her, her wish. do 50% SACD and 50% DVDA :D
REGARDS SNOW

[F1nut]

DVD-A is dead, DualDisc killed it.

[steveinaz]

Maybe my DAC just does a really good job with redbook, I just found the differences very subtle---and heard none of this "blanket over the speakers" characterization--if anything, the SACD was smoother/less forward in the treble.

[hearingimpared]

Maybe my DAC just does a really good job with redbook, I just found the differences very subtle---and heard none of this "blanket over the speakers" characterization--if anything, the SACD was smoother/less forward in the treble.

I think your description of, "if anything, the SACD was smoother/less forward in the treble" can be applied to vinyl. CDs tend to make treble very hot. Even with my Timbre DAC I sometimes have trouble with some CDs that have that hot treble.

[AndyGwis]

I picked up the Eric Clapton 461 Ocean Blvd SACD. Not familiar with much outside his popular singles, but this is really good bluesy music.

Not a bad addition. Haven't even listened to the whole thing, and already very happy with the purchase.

[snow]

I picked up the Eric Clapton 461 Ocean Blvd SACD. Not familiar with much outside his popular singles, but this is really good bluesy music.

Not a bad addition. Haven't even listened to the whole thing, and already very happy with the purchase.nice album i have it on CD in a 5.1 DTS form. i think its kind of rare because i have never seen another like it. REGARDS SNOW

[venomclan]

My wife just asked me today not to replace all the CDs with SACDs at once. Now THIS:rolleyes: ;)

Change them all then, except for one :)
It will work even better if she is an attorney. Be literal.