Music Should Sound Like Glass

[Early B.]

A few months ago, I was wondering what my system was missing. After going to a couple of high end audio stores and hearing very expensive gear in rooms with acoustic dampening, it occurred to me that the sound was like glass. Meaning -- it was absolutely crystal clear. The blackest background, tremendous detail and clarity, holographic, blah, blah, blah...Hell, it almost sounded too good.

Then I'd come home and didn't hear the sound of glass on my own system, so it was time to upgrade. Of course, the room makes the biggest difference, so I moved my 2-channel system to a larger room, changed speakers, sold my tube int. amp, bought an amp and preamp, and switched out interconnects. In essence, I changed everything except the source.

I thought I could only get the glass effect with high dollar gear, but now my system is glassy and I didn't spend very much money to get it there. It sounds better than I ever imagined it could, even with my room limitations and smallish budget.

Two lessons re-learned:

1. Price doesn't mean a damn thing in audio to get great sound. You simply have to do a lot of research and learn from others; and

2. If it don't sound right, buy better gear ("better" doesn't always imply more expensive).

You have to get your system to the point where it doesn't make sense to upgrade your components anymore because, in your opinion, you have the best sounding gear money can buy (within your budget, of course).


There's no real point to this thread. Just thought I'd share.

[Ricardo]

There's a point on this thread, and that is you are enjoying the music out of your system. Isn't that the whole point? ;)

Congrats; we are all counting though...since you said "this is my last pair of speakers" :)

[tonyb]

There's a point on this thread, and that is you are enjoying the music out of your system. Isn't that the whole point? ;)

Congrats; we are all counting though...since you said "this is my last pair of speakers" :)


Yeah.....till Early gets a windfall of dough in his hands,then we shall see.:)

[AndyGwis]

Like glass. . . gotcha. . .

Okay, I just sprayed my entire systems with Windex. I thought it would clean up the sound, but I still can't hear a difference.


Terrible pun 100% intended.

[Early B.]

Congrats; we are all counting though...since you said "this is my last pair of speakers" :)

Dammit, how long do you plan on remembering I said that?:p

[zombie boy 2000]

I'm thinking "forever":D

[reeltrouble1]

sound was like glass. Meaning -- it was absolutely crystal clear. The blackest background, tremendous detail and clarity, holographic,

excellent, the only caveat I have found is the detail of the poorer recording's, they sound so bad compared to the good ones as level of detail goes up.

RT1

[heiney9]

Great insights. I'm at a point where I will need to really spend some $$$ to take that next step. I am throughly delighted with my current set-up. One thing that is annoying is all my recordings sound so different on my system. A recording can make or break the listening experience at this point. I find if I listen to many lesser recordings I start to feel my system isn't cutting it. Then, I pull out the best recordings I have and listen to those and I get a big smile again. The experience can be so real and life-like.

Also in today's money I really have very little invested in my system vs. performance, so that makes the satisfaction even greater.

[Early B.]

Great insights. I'm at a point where I will need to really spend some $$$ to take that next step. I am throughly delighted with my current set-up. One thing that is annoying is all my recordings sound so different on my system. A recording can make or break the listening experience at this point. I find if I listen to many lesser recordings I start to feel my system isn't cutting it. Then, I pull out the best recordings I have and listen to those and I get a big smile again. The experience can be so real and life-like.

You gotta buy good recordings and toss the poorly recorded stuff. Sounds hardcore, but think about it -- if all you had in your CD collection was well recorded material, then your system would always sound great. That's the sacrifice we have to make for being "audiophiles."

Believe me, you won't miss those poorly recorded CDs, even if it's some of your favorite music.

[steveinaz]

I've found the best/most satisfying changes came with speaker upgrades, so my next pair (last pair) will be in the $3k-$5k/pr category.

Changing lanes; I've only had 2 CD's that were so poor, I trashed them:

Yes-Live
Nazareth- Hair of the Dog

[zombie boy 2000]

Early - you had me thinking on this a couple of nights ago. I really, really see where you're coming from. I promise, I do. But good music trumps good sound reproduction every time in my book.

I'm with you to a point only because I can think of numerous times that I have popped in some of my favorite albums -- only to cringe at what I was hearing. The thing is... I realized my dissatisfaction was with the gear and not the music.

I hate to sound all hopelessly romantic and shit.. but the music is what matters in the end. Otherwise, we're stuck listening to ruler flat test tones.
Of course, nothing (and I mean nothing) beats having the best of both worlds. Stop Making Sense by the Talking Heads instantly comes to mind...

[AndyGwis]

I am a big RATM fan, but their stuff doesn't sound good at all on any system I play it. Maybe it's just not GOOD sounding music. . . but their CDs are fine for the Bose system in the Acura.

[heiney9]

I've found the best/most satisfying changes came with speaker upgrades, so my next pair (last pair) will be in the $3k-$5k/pr category.

Agreed. The Lsi's have transformed my system once again. 2 most significant changes were

1) addition of seperate DAC about 4 years ago
2) moving up the line in speaker performance with Lsi's.

Next I'd like to move into some Pass Labs stuff and a particular Monarchy tube/line stage DAC as far as electronics. Speakers, I'm not sure because I really want to spend more time with the Lsi's.

Thing is, the synergy in my current system is so good right now there is no reason other than 'upgraditis' to spend the $4-6K to take the next step upgrading electronics. At some point I will, life is too short.

[heiney9]

You gotta buy good recordings and toss the poorly recorded stuff. Sounds hardcore, but think about it -- if all you had in your CD collection was well recorded material, then your system would always sound great. That's the sacrifice we have to make for being "audiophiles."

Believe me, you won't miss those poorly recorded CDs, even if it's some of your favorite music.

I agree 100%, but how does one always know what is a good recording vs. adequate vs. poor. I have so many cd's I don't listen to because they don't meet my standard. Soemtimes I run across a gem that really suprises and other times what should be a good recording based on the artist's past releases is disappointing.

Led Zep is my fave of all time, but I find the remasters to be less than optimal but I'm not giving up my Zep. Some early Sabbath is the same way.
One odd thing is most of the Hendrix stuff I listen to is done pretty well.
Todays recording and mastering engineers do a very poor job most of the time. It's all part of game and all part of the reward when you find a really nice sounding recording. Sometimes the hunt is fun sometimes the hunt is tedious.

[Early B.]

I'm with you to a point only because I can think of numerous times that I have popped in some of my favorite albums -- only to cringe at what I was hearing. The thing is... I realized my dissatisfaction was with the gear and not the music.

What I do is look for digitally remastered versions of my favorite old school music. They are usually better sounding, but not always. Sometimes the live albums are more listenable, but not always.

Also depends on how you listen to music. Critical listeners like me sit down and listen, while other people play music mostly for background while they're doing other things. Makes a big difference.

[zombie boy 2000]

I'm rowing that boat with you EB... I can hardly do anything else when music is playing. Usually I'm rooted to the spot -- another reason why I love this hobby second and music first.
I suppose that classifies me as a "critical listener of music". Though you and I can both agree there is another type of "critical listener" out there.

I love finding digital remasters of my favorite recordings. Some are better than others... Even better, I love finding a favorite recording re-released in HDCD.

btw I see the passive is working its magic in your system. "Crystal clear" is no accident...

[strider]

Despite being in the more formative stages of my audio journey I agree how disappointing poorly recorded material can be. I've been swapping components in and out and listening a bit more as of late, and some of the music I've loved in the past just doesn't cut it anymore. An example is Stevie Ray Vaughan Live at Carnegie Hall. Great selections, Roomful of Blues horns, Jimmy Vaughan ,etc etc, but since my system sounds better then ever the recording sounds like crap. I used to love that recording. I'm still fighting the urge to not like Band of Gypsys on Capital. Guitar sounds great, but the vocals sound like they were recorded off of an AM transitor radio.

heiney9- what Hendrix do you find to sound the best?

[Early B.]

btw I see the passive is working its magic in your system. "Crystal clear" is no accident...

Yes, I consider it a revolutionary change. That's part of the reason I talk so much about price. Several people have favorably compared the $400 Promitheus TVC to $6,000 preamps. Great sound doesn't always come with a huge price tag.

In terms of crystal clear, when I turn on my system and place my ear to either speaker, I hear absolute dead silence. No humming or buzzing whatsoever. Gotta love it.

[zombie boy 2000]

Yes, I consider it a revolutionary change. That's part of the reason I talk so much about price. Several people have favorably compared the $400 Promitheus TVC to $6,000 preamps. Great sound doesn't always come with a huge price tag.

In terms of crystal clear, when I turn on my system and place my ear to either speaker, I hear absolute dead silence. No humming or buzzing whatsoever. Gotta love it.

That's awesome... the only reason I moved away from my passive was because I felt it somewhat hindered the dynamics of my set-up. Then again, I believe your passive is on a whole other level -- so this probably isn't even an issue. Especially since your speakers probably excel in this area. That being said, I also lost a bit of detail when I moved away.
Sometimes we take one-step back to take one-step forward. It ultimately comes down to what you value.

Unfortunately, a passive isn't for everyone - in that nearly all of your components have to fall into place for it to work its magic. System synergy takes on a whole new meaning when a component is effectively "removed".

btw the bane of my system's existence (the eternal Achille's heel, if you will) is my high-noise floor. Ironically, the fact that my amp is sensitive enough to work well with a passive only adds to this problem.

[danger boy]

do you have any before and after pics there Early? I wanna see if you do. thx

[heiney9]

Not speaking about Early B and his experiences, but I've found the same thing with passive pre's. Many lack that last degree of dynamics and the oomph I (and most of us) are so used too. One in particular that is a top notch pre is the Adcom GFP-750. Stellar <$2000 pre-amp that can be both active or passive. I prefered the active setting to passive. Doesn't mean one is better than the other I just prefered the dynamics offered in active mode. Passive had a tad bit more openess and detail. Perhaps one could get used to a passive pre because of other areas it excels at. I suspect it may have sounded more open because of the slight lack of dynamics.

Strider-I'll get back to you on the Hendrix.

[Early B.]

Not speaking about Early B and his experiences, but I've found the same thing with passive pre's. Many lack that last degree of dynamics and the oomph I (and most of us) are so used too. One in particular that is a top notch pre is the Adcom GFP-750. Stellar <$2000 pre-amp that can be both active or passive. I prefered the active setting to passive. Doesn't mean one is better than the other I just prefered the dynamics offered in active mode. Passive had a tad bit more openess and detail. Perhaps one could get used to a passive pre because of other areas it excels at. I suspect it may have sounded more open because of the slight lack of dynamics.

I can agree that the last bit of dynamics may not be present with my passive. But since it excels in virtually everything else, I don't miss it.

[Early B.]

do you have any before and after pics there Early? I wanna see if you do. thx


Before (Sept. 2006) and After (today):

[steveinaz]

On the passive vs active discussion, I've found both have their pluses. I ran my system direct for a couple of weeks and really liked the neutral/tonal balance of everything--pristine. On the other hand, the extra punch my MF pre provides has it's pluses as well.

I've entertained the idea of the Monolithic active/passive preamp many times, but never pulled the trigger on it as I'm afraid to mess with success at this point.

[heiney9]

On the passive vs active discussion, I've found both have their pluses. I ran my system direct for a couple of weeks and really liked the neutral/tonal balance of everything--pristine. On the other hand, the extra punch my MF pre provides has it's pluses as well.

Yep. That's what appeals to me about the Adcom is it can be run in either depending on source material and my mood. Both definetly have thier pluses and it sounds like Early is really enjoying his set-up. :cool:

[steveinaz]

That Adcom would be a great idea---switch to active mode for rock/jazz, switch to passive mode for classical. That would be sweet.

[heiney9]

That Adcom would be a great idea---switch to active mode for rock/jazz, switch to passive mode for classical. That would be sweet.

Not to mention it's a really great sounding pre. I'm trying to get my brother to let his go, but it's not going too well. :D Ever since I demo'd it I really like the way it sounds or actually the way it doesn't sound. Talk about an affordable pre that really adds nothing even in active mode.

I'm not sure i'd have the guts to go completely passive, so being able to switch between the 2 would be the ideal compromise. Perhaps I need to re-think my upgrade path.:confused:

[pblanc]

The only time I can really hear glass is when it breaks.

[strider]

Strider-I'll get back to you on the Hendrix.
Thank you. I'm enjoying listening to what you guys have to say. Sorry for the mini hijack. :D

[steveinaz]

I'm not sure i'd have the guts to go completely passive, so being able to switch between the 2 would be the ideal compromise. Perhaps I need to re-think my upgrade path.:confused:

That's the beauty of the Monolithic pic above---it's passive until the 12 o'clock position, then it goes into active for about 13dB of gain.

[zombie boy 2000]

Like I said though, it's not simply an issue of whether or not you prefer a "passive sound". Most set-ups don't mate well with this type of pre. An active preamp with a 20db gain in my set-up won't allow me to go past 9 on the volume dial. Send me a passive with fries and a large drink.

If you're already pushing toward 1 or 2 o'clock with an active, you may want to reconsider. Short interconnects also play a factor.

edit: Steve - I think that's a brilliant feature on the Monolithic.

[steveinaz]

On my MF A3CR, it's rare that I go past the 11:00 o'clock position, with the exception of a couple of music DVD's that have really low output levels and I'm wanting to rock out.

One track is Shania Twain's superbowl performance of "We're gonna rock this country" (I think). That one I listen to at 3:00 o'clock! It's awesome, it makes me want to breed.

[Early B.]

Like I said though, it's not simply an issue of whether or not you prefer a "passive sound". Most set-ups don't mate well with this type of pre. An active preamp with a 20db gain in my set-up won't allow me to go past 9 on the volume dial. Send me a passive with fries and a large drink.

If you're already pushing toward 1 or 2 o'clock with an active, you may want to reconsider. Short interconnects also play a factor.

There are differences between a typical passive preamp and a TVC that mitigate many of these concerns. I don't know the technical mumbo jumbo, so you may want to research it. Just google "transformer volume control."

[zombie boy 2000]

My Monarchy/Dared combo won't let me get past 9/9:30 tops:D I'm fine with it, but I know it raises the noise floor quite a bit and probably hinders channel separation in theory (though my center image is always rock solid, so I don't know if this is entirely true)....

Give me an affordable tube pre with about 10db gain and I'll be as happy as a big in slop:)

[zombie boy 2000]

There are differences between a typical passive preamp and a TVC that mitigate many of these concerns. I don't know the technical mumbo jumbo, so you may want to research it. Just google "transformer volume control."

And this is why the TVC interests me greatly:D

[heiney9]

Many times passive's don't play well in a system and you need to experiment. Certainly isn't soemthing to rush into lightly. I run my Nak pre between 8 and 11 o'clock. By the time I get to 11 o'clock it's right below clipping for normal source material. It's a high gain pre that for super hot recordings doesn't give me much volume flexibility at times. Some ultra-hot recordings have me 2 notches from zero and that's plenty loud for normal listening. Damn recording engineers :mad:

[heiney9]

But I also should add that a typical DAC in the loop will increase/ boost the signal as well.

[zombie boy 2000]

Tru dat H9...
I absolutely relish softer recordings. Gives me a chance to "crank" it to 10:00:D

Just don't let Early read that it may actually matter to me how something is recorded:p

[zombie boy 2000]

But I also should add that a typical DAC in the loop will increase/ boost the signal as well.

fwiw My Lite Audio DAC AH-M1 did so minimally. I've read the unmodded version boosts the signal significantly.

[Early B.]

fwiw My Lite Audio DAC AH-M1 did so minimally. I've read the unmodded version boosts the signal significantly.

I don't wanna hijack my own thread, but did you ever post your thoughts on this DAC on this board? I'm interested.

[heiney9]

fwiw My Lite Audio DAC AH-M1 did so minimally. I've read the unmodded version boosts the signal significantly.

Somewhere on Monarchy's page C.C. Poon explains the reason for this. Something to do with S/N ratio is better, or something. It's not a bad thing, but if your pre is already high gain you really notice an increase.

Tru dat H9...
I absolutely relish softer recordings. Gives me a chance to "crank" it to 10:00.

That's why I love that Talking Heads-Stop Making Sense cd. Absolute awesome transfer and recorded at sane levels with all the dynamics intact. :D

[zombie boy 2000]

I don't wanna hijack my own thread, but did you ever post your thoughts on this DAC on this board? I'm interested.

I'm going to give myself some more smoking jacket/pipe sessions before I give my impressions. Suffice it to say that at its $240 pricepoint, it's a steal.

[zombie boy 2000]

That's why I love that Talking Heads-Stop Making Sense cd. Absolute awesome transfer and recorded at sane levels with all the dynamics intact. :D

Oh now Early is really going to have ammunition, but what the hell:D ...

Stop Making Sense in HDCD is one of my all-time favorite recordings for precisely the same reasons you gave.

[Lsi9]

I lived with the Lsi9s for awhile and loved them but I never really drove them with the right power. Now I have the Focal 826v which are rated at 8ohm and everything has opened up for me, in every aspect. Ironically tomorrow I am getting the amp that the 9's wouldve loved (Sunfire x5) I just cant imagine how my Focals will sound with amp upgrade as well as the Bada coming here in a week or two. What really made my day a week ago was reading the excellent review of my speakers in Sound & Vision as well as being on the front cover.
Sometimes what we need is to appreciate a different sound, you get bored with the same old sound. I am set for awhile and the only way I would replace my 826v is by getting better Focals @ double the cost, but I can assure that won't happen for a long time!