My New System... Mono!

[madmax]

I've been thinking of setting up an all mono audiophile system. I'm guessing that getting rid of the "mix" could be one step closer to audio perfection. I have no real idea what considerations were made back when people did this.

Tubes are an obvious necessity. (because I like tubes). Maybe one of the amps in the closet like a jolida 60W or a Houston 75W or the McAlister which I haven't yet repaired. (needs speaker posts replaced).

Some sort of speaker. Could be bi or tri-amped. Should probably be big and most likely DIY. Active or passive crossover if bi or tri-amped?

Subwoofer or just a real big bass speaker, not sure. I don't think they used to use "subwoofers".

A source. A CD player and a somewhat cheap turntable to start.


Any input is appreciated! If you know how it used to be done that is a plus but any ideas will get me started.

madmax

[Shizelbs]

Are you talking about using a system that top to bottom uses monoblocks or other components in a dual-mono setup? Or real mono. One speaker / one channel type mono. If thats the case you've lost your mind.

[reeltrouble1]

Oh no, he is very serious.

Getting sound out of vinyl is a true labor of love, however, when done properly, digital just cannot keep up, afterall, digital is an interpolation of the actual analog wave which vinyl takes sampling to infinity, you just have to battle all sorts of anomalies.

Chuck, I will leave the mono rig to you, I still have nightmares about a transistor radio, the top ten countdown and the beatles doing Twist and Shout. Have fun building it though. The mono Pet Sounds is pretty good as far as digital. Get your groove on with the 78's.

RT1

[beardog03]

I too am going to go mono when cash permits..

I am also looking for the answers, but have decided on Cary mono`s , a Cary 98 F1 pre and some Sonus Amati`s..the speaks are waaaaaay outta reach, so I`ll just stick with the 9`s until I hit the lotto

[RuSsMaN]

Chuck, are you doing one speaker, or two?

I've got good mono gear out the wazoo, but it's all vintage.

[madmax]

I'm talking one channel. It may have several amps for different frequency ranges but true mono. It's planned to be an audiophile quality system as well. From what I understand people used to do this because they would rather put a large amount of $$ into a single channel of higher quality rather than dividing it up into 2 channels. Of course I'll just be moving some components around and maybe building a speaker to try it out, nothing lost.

I just want to see if there is some magic that comes out once you eliminate the mix. I'm sure there may be some tradeoffs there. I'm also pretty sure the room becomes an even more important part of the system. I hope Ken S chimes in on this one.

Earlier today I got to thinking I have one of those old Voice of the Theater speakers downstairs with no drivers that I have been wondering why I ever acquired it. That might be THE speaker cabinent to use. Too bad I sold a great JBL bass driver that would have worked perfectly in it...

My goals: Big sound that fills the room, realism, quality sound without weird ques to throw my brain off.

And yes, I have truely lost my mind. :)
madmax

[shack]

And yes, I have truely lost my mind. :)
madmax

That was a given...and the fact that you have waaaaaaay too much time on your hands.

[RuSsMaN]

I ask, because a lot of people just invest in a good mono cartridge, and install a second table in their system, or another arm on their current table if it has the capacity.

I've got a few JBL 12 inch, I might have a JBL 15. The only thing I ever setup true mono was a single corner horn, and used a recapped Bogen 6v6 mono amp, with a Sherwood mono tuna, and a generic Sony CDP with the outputs y'd together. You really have to be back a bit, but right in front of a single speaker setup for it do anything for you.

Now when I brought a second corner horn into the mix, it was really wild how great it imaged with two speakers, even though it was still mono.

[AndyGwis]

I think I know what you're talking about. Here's a sketch of my "concept" mono audiophile TT system :)

[AndyGwis]

Also, isn't this thread in the wrong section? Do we need to petition for a 1-channel forum?

[Ricardo]

Now when I brought a second corner horn into the mix, it was really wild how great it imaged with two speakers, even though it was still mono.


There...I just can't imagine a good system without the imaging and the soundstage that comes from two speakers....but maybe that's just because I've never heard a one speaker system??

[RuSsMaN]

Here is my Superbowl XL setup - ran 5.1 one for XLI......

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37383

[madmax]

Also, isn't this thread in the wrong section? Do we need to petition for a 1-channel forum?

That would go over great... I can see Matt in a meeting saying "What we need to do is get these people buying one speaker instead of 5 or 7. :D

I was hoping Ken would see it here.
madmax

[F1nut]

The thing about Chuck is that he's always on the cutting edge.

[madmax]

The thing about Chuck is that he's always on the cutting edge.

Or at least the chopping block. :D
madmax

[ohskigod]

great, I build a 2 channel rig, and now Mono will be the "purist" way to go?.......FABULOUS :D

Go get em Chuck. I'm gonna stay with 5 and 2 channel for now. I'll admit, my interest is piqued though

[Dean guitar pla]

This may sound stupid but my stepfather was big into the mono only sound. He used a huge modified Lesley cabinet w/ a 15" woofer only. The amp he eventually settled for and we still have it somewhere is an old Carver that looked like a huge cash register. It had something like 12 or 15 tubes??? I think it was called a Silver 7 or something like that. I hated the way it sounded but it was way cool when I plugged my Gibson Les Paul into the system, used to shake the house and really pi$$ my Mom off. My stepdad just laughed, he was pretty cool God rest his soul :D

I plan to go up to NY to pick the stuff up this summer as it is in storage. I am really after the Nackamichi Dragon cassette deck he had!!! I think the preamp he used was an old Dynaco but I do not remember for sure

There also is a huge reel to reel and other cool gadgets

[Kenneth Swauger]

Hello,
I remember when I got my first job selling audio equipment, in 1971, I was convinced I knew everything there was to know about audio. One of my first customers said that he preferred the sound of a monophonic recording. I thought to myself, "This guy is from the stone age, he's crazy, everybody knows that stereo (multi-channel) is the way to go". He was very patient with me and took a pencil and paper and proved that no stereophonic record could possibly have realistic bass information since a stereo phono cartridge would reduce the monophonic bass information by 3dB. He said stereo was a compromise (sound familiar?) solution and that more research should have been done before picking the final parameters.
Everytime I'm listening to a well recorded mono recording and I hear the richness of the bass, how "real" it sounds, I remember him. There is some undefinable "rightness" about a well made monophonic recording, there is less of the wondering if the image is correct. It just "is". I set up a few audio systems with Mitchell Cotter, once, and he began tuning every ststem by using monophonic recordings. He said not to even try working with a stereo recording until you got mono sounding right.
Ken

[steveinaz]

The thing about Chuck is that he's always on the cutting edge.

Chuck is eccentric, that's what out dig about him. Never afraid to try something off the beaten path.

[treitz3]

Well, I gotta say...this is definitely off the beaten path.

If it improves the bass, but [as I would imagine...] kills the soundstage imaging, what have you gained?

But if you are off the beaten path, why not try the lower frequencies in mono, and leave the rest in Stereo? I wish you luck in your "off the beaten path project"!

[Lsi9]

You guys are real audiophiles, good to see the different directions people can go with audio.

Speaking of Mono I was in the coffee shop today before work and I heard Van Morrison's Brown eyed girl on the store's radio, but it sounded different sort of like a remix. I looked for the source and see its one of those small Tivoli radios with one speaker built in. It sounded darn good for what it was doing. Then it dawned on me that the song was not in fact a remix but instead it was just lead vocals, bass and some drum and thats it! The radio was MONO! and apparently playing only one of the two stereo tracks.
I thought that was odd, wouldn't the designer make it so FM at least combined the L/R channels through the one speaker? But now I guess mono should remain mono and if one was to seek a pure mono experience wouldn't it be wiser to seek out mono recordings? I seriously doubt that anything significant would be heard/not heard. I am sure there are people out there(Robert Crumb?) that will only play mono recordings on their mono rigs.

[halo]

This may seem like a stupid question but I'll put it out there anyway...would a big bad a$$ center channel speaker be "just right" for this application?

[treitz3]

..................No.

[cmy330go]

I once played around with mono recordings through two speakers, (but never an entire single channel rig) and was shocked at how good it sounded. I was never certain why it was so pleasing to the ear before, but it would seem Ken's comments just shed a little light on that.

I'm very anxious to hear your thoughts on it.

[madmax]

If it improves the bass, but [as I would imagine...] kills the soundstage imaging, what have you gained?

If that is what it turns out to be then it was an overall loss. My hopes are that taking out the stereo mix will produce a more realistic image. If you had a small band playing in the front middle of your room what would they sound like and why? I think their sound would fill the room and sound like stereo is supposed to. Of course there is a little space between instruments. Could it be that you need a speaker the size of the group? Or maybe an omnidirectional speaker to utilize the room acoustics? I'm not sure of the answers here. I can say that just firing up one standard speaker normally placed for stereo (or a pair set to mono) doesn't do much, at least nothing I want to listen to.

There is a bunch of mumbo jumbo out there about the pitfalls of having two seperate speakers and all the stuff done to help eliminate the problems. It mostly seemed reasonable to me as I read through some of it but I don't know much about this area of theory. In any case, I guess I'll figure out something by the time I'm done. :D

madmax

[steveinaz]

Exactly Max. People talk like mono would destroy everything--not true, what do you think you're hearing when you listen to live music? If you've ever ducked into a small jazz bar in New Orleans, where many of these bands play minus any amplification/mixers, etc., you're essentially listening to a mono source. Sure there is space between instruments/performers---but a single speaker can capture/recreate this if properly designed.

[beardog03]

WOW !

you guy`s are making perfect sense !

never thought of it like that before.....or maybe that`s why I want to go to mono blocks...to take out the "stereo" effect

[shack]

what do you think you're hearing when you listen to live music? .....If you've ever ducked into a small jazz bar in New Orleans, where many of these bands play minus any amplification/mixers, etc., you're essentially listening to a mono source.

I disagree....it is anything BUT mono. It is multichannel at it's purest. To absolutely, accurately recreate that sound you would have to have a speaker for each instrument. Anything less is a compromise. What you have in mono is the sound that one might hear in any single loacation as recorded by the mike. It may be able to record what the sound is at that location but I'm not convinced a single speaker can totally reproduce what the mike picks up.

[steveinaz]

I don't know how so? Sure, a speaker per player would be the most accurate representation, but I don't see why a speaker with good soundstaging characteristics couldn't come very close. You're still listening in a specific direction (point source), with 2 ears and reflective cues---these same cues could theoretically be reproduced given the right speaker placement and reflective surfaces, no?

[shack]

I don't know how so? Sure, a speaker per player would be the most accurate representation, but I don't see why a speaker with good soundstaging characteristics couldn't come very close. You're still listening in a specific direction (point source), with 2 ears and reflective cues---these same cues could theoretically be reproduced given the right speaker placement and reflective surfaces, no?

A mono recording is multiple sources pinpointed at a single location. Mono reproduction is a single source trying to recreate multiple sources. I'm not saying a single source can't reproduce it adequately...but it is still a compromise. I have no issues with multichannel music as long as all the channels are IN FRONT of the listener. If music was recorded in 3 channel, 4 channel and so forth...I have no problem (my issue with mc music is the use of rear channels for stuff that should be coming from the front). The more the front channels, the more accurately the music is being produced. IMO stereo is better than mono.

[madmax]

But in stereo, if you had only two trumpets, each on the opposite side of a stage, both playing the same line, wouldn't it end up coming from the center if you played back a recording of it?
madmax

[shack]

But in stereo, if you had only two trumpets, each on the opposite side of a stage, both playing the same line, wouldn't it end up coming from the center if you played back a recording of it?
madmax
Not necessarily. Two trumpets playing the same line may have slightly different pitch or tonal quality that would allow one to discern the location of the sound. In real life, if you hear two trumpets playing the same line on different sides of the room, does it sound like it comes from the middle or can you hear the difference? It should be the same "effect" whether recorded or live.

[cmy330go]

Not necessarily. Two trumpets playing the same line may have slightly different pitch or tonal quality that would allow one to discern the location of the sound. In real life, if you hear two trumpets playing the same line on different sides of the room, does it sound like it comes from the middle or can you hear the difference? It should be the same "effect" whether recorded or live.

Shack nailed this one. Even if they are playing in sync with one another. They will never be perfectly matched in pitch and phase allowing you to distinguish them. Even if all else were equal you would still likely here a difference just due to positions in the room.

Just as an example I have some friends that perform in a small band. In a couple of songs they use two sax players that at certain points will play in sync, but never at anytime does it sound like there is a single sax in the middle of the stage.

[madmax]

It should be the same "effect" whether recorded or live.

I don't think it is. What you would end up with from a recording and stereo speakers is that everything that matched on the left and the right would be in the center. The variences would be off to the left and right. It is different in real life because you hear the room ambience clearly. Of course if your stereo speakers are set up properly you will not hear the room ambience the speaker makes within the room. In other words you will hear the room ambience as recorded (right or wrong) only. It is different than having the real sound originating at the left and right.
madmax

PS: I'm only working through these thoughts, not saying you OR I are right or wrong.

[RuSsMaN]

So which is better, a stereo recording using one mic, or a mono recording using three mics?

;)

[shack]

So which is better, a stereo recording using one mic, or a mono recording using three mics?

;)

A stereo recording using multiple mikes....

[madmax]

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaa......

[madmax]

I wonder what this single mono speaker looks like?

I like the idea of a couple 12" or 15" woofers which will dig deep enough that a seperate sub would not be necessary. What kind of midrange and tweeter?

Then again, maybe it needs to be a high efficiency full range driver with a super tweeter and a sub for the real low stuff? Maybe the sub is an open chamber sort, board is the only enclosure?

Does it use off axis pointing drivers to utilize the room or maybe it is just forward firing with the mid and tweeter offset towards the back to make more time coherent?

Big full open sound which utilizes the room while still retaining acuracy is the goal.
madmax

[jfb4548]

I wonder what this single mono speaker looks like?

I like the idea of a couple 12" or 15" woofers which will dig deep enough that a seperate sub would not be necessary. What kind of midrange and tweeter?

Then again, maybe it needs to be a high efficiency full range driver with a super tweeter and a sub for the real low stuff? Maybe the sub is an open chamber sort, board is the only enclosure?

Does it use off axis pointing drivers to utilize the room or maybe it is just forward firing with the mid and tweeter offset towards the back to make more time coherent?

Big full open sound which utilizes the room while still retaining acuracy is the goal.
madmax


When I was growing up my father had his hifi in the basement rec. room. He had a great collection of the music of the day. Lots of jazz and all of the Kingston Trio. This brings back alot of fond memories. Anyway his gear was all English made. Amp and pre were from a company called PYE. For the speaker he had a single full range 12 driver in a custom built cabnet. If I remember correctly the speaker was made by Goodman.

A while ago I talked to McAlister about the amp and he said it was better then most for its age. Oh and a Thornes TT.

[treitz3]

What kind of midrange and tweeter?
Have you looked at (or heard, rather) a ribbon, inverted dome tweeter, like a TNC.....or even a pure buryllium tweeter?

A "wall" (entire wall) mono speaker I'm sure would be a fun project.

Someone had mentioned earlier on about having a speaker for each player or instrument.........That could get very expensive when listening to an orchestra!

[Bill Ayotte]

Welcome to the forum brother! (Bill from Carver)

[treitz3]

WWaaaaaaazzzzzzzzzzzzzzuuuuuuuP!:D

[SKsolutions]

Think in Horns. Room should be large and live. Any thought to a Mono array with horns on top. Sounds like a sundae. You could fold the woofer in a horn, or use smaller drivers with a horizontal dispersion pattern. If the room is under 20 feet, you could even go bipole. . . .since we are talking insanity.

I've heard a corner loaded Klipschorn that was powered well and run mono in a treated room at the medialab at MIT, and I still remember it being an experience almost visceral in magnitude. That was 15 years ago. I was like a kid in a playpen.

[madmax]

I'm pondering the use of a pair of Carver Amazings currently in storage. I'm thinking they fit the idea of a mono rig because they utilize the room. Both the woofers and tweeters use rear reflections. This should make them sound big. I'm guessing they would sit side by side with no toe in, tweeters together. Good idea or bad??

[treitz3]

In theory it still splits the signal, defeating true mono, right?

[madmax]

You mean because there is more than one driver? I'm guessing it would look like a single channel with 8 woofers and two tweeters. The other alternative is to use one with 4 woofers and one tweeter.

[treitz3]

You mean because there is more than one driver?
Yes, I did. But I just re-read the whole post and the 3dB loss is when you split the Mono into stereo. I wouldn't think that there would be a loss when you take a mono source and supply to a dual speaker system. You are just amplifying a signal, right? Russman might know, he's got some experience.....

[gidrah]

Sounds like a good opportunity for a single 901.

[madmax]

Sounds like a good opportunity for a single 901.

Ha ha, I have a pair of those and was thinking the same thing. I'd want to use them as a semi full range deal without the equalizer so I'd still need a good woofer and super tweeter. Pretty much use the 901 for the midrange.

A little testing happened last night. I have a mono record player with a detachable speaker. One of those school transcription ones which plays the 16" broadcast records. The detachable speaker has a 10" bass driver housed in an open back box with 4 piezo tweeters. Not hi-fi quality but completely up to the job it was meant to do.

Anyway, I tried several placement options with the detachable speaker and found that if I put it about 2' away from the short wall, center in the room and listen in the listening position I get really nice bass and a big open sounding stage. Just the right amount of the room acoustics mixing in. I was very happy listening to it. I think I'm onto some good placement here. I had to sit there and go over in my head whether or not missing the spatial cues from stereo was a loss or not. That says something, not sure what.

Now, to do it with good equipment!

madmax

[steveinaz]

Sounds like a good opportunity for a single 901.

Absolutely.

[edbert]

I know someone mentioned the Tivoli radio in the coffee shop. I got one a couple of years ago and it is great! The sound is really good considering it's size. I have it at work and hook up my iPod to it and it sounds great. Basically taking a stereo source and converting it to mono. I would be interested to see what a high end mono system would sound like. I'll be curious to see the end result of what you decide to go with.

[madmax]

I guess you found another way to get quick and dirty mono. Still mono gives you spatial cues, just not the ones highlighted and doctored by stereo effects.
Sona

Yes, I had already tried setting my stereo system to mono and listening with the two speakers where they normally sit for stereo. I also tried just one of them where normally sitting. Both ways sucked. I can only assume that mono speaker placement requires a different reasoning than stereo speakers.

My main stereo speakers are SDA-SRS and do not lend themselves to being moved all around. (180 lbs each, 5' tall etc.)

[Mix-no-mo]

When I am mixing a show, I will do nothing but Mono, but the Stereo advantage in a reference system is undeniable. With Mono, you just can't get the same imaging and depth of field that you can with Stereo.

[hearingimpared]

I've been thinking of setting up an all mono audiophile system. I'm guessing that getting rid of the "mix" could be one step closer to audio perfection. I have no real idea what considerations were made back when people did this.

Tubes are an obvious necessity. (because I like tubes). Maybe one of the amps in the closet like a jolida 60W or a Houston 75W or the McAlister which I haven't yet repaired. (needs speaker posts replaced).

Some sort of speaker. Could be bi or tri-amped. Should probably be big and most likely DIY. Active or passive crossover if bi or tri-amped?

Subwoofer or just a real big bass speaker, not sure. I don't think they used to use "subwoofers".

A source. A CD player and a somewhat cheap turntable to start.


Any input is appreciated! If you know how it used to be done that is a plus but any ideas will get me started.

madmax

Chuck there is a guy in Canada who has an ebay store (http://stores.ebay.com/Hear-The-Difference_W0QQssPageNameZstrkQ3amefsQ3amesstQQtZk m)(don't hold that against him) his name is Don D'Afonso his email address is hearthedifference@sympatico.ca He has as far as I know three very high end systems in his home. One of them is a mono system which from what I recall he has a few thousand mono recordings.

I correspond with him from time to time and I'm sure he'll be happy to help you out with any questions about a mono setup and good mono recordings .

You can drop my name if you please. As a matter of fact he is the fellow from whom I purchased my Timbre DAC and dozens of recordings.

[candyliquor35m]

There must be something to this mono revival. If I'm reading this right, here's a benz mono cartridge on a'gon for $1300

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgcart&1178237191

[hearingimpared]

There must be something to this mono revival. If I'm reading this right, here's a benz mono cartridge on a'gon for $1300

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgcart&1178237191

Chuck this is right up you alley!!!!

[madmax]

Chuck this is right up you alley!!!!

Man, I'm still trying to get the room sorted out to get the speakers in. :D

But I bet thats a sweet cartridge. :)
madmax

[madmax]

I just thought I would post the final outcome of the "mono system" I built.

It turns out I didn't have to build my own speaker or even change the system very much. Although two standard speakers used in mono operation normally don't sound right for mono I found a pair that does. The Dahlquist DQ-10's. In my room they are awesome for mono sources. The two speakers totally disappear and a very wide sound emerges from the center. Most speakers give you a center image but all I have heard seem somewhat narrow with a real mono signal. The SDA's were exceptionally narrow. Other than that it is the standard stereo system.

What this system does well is play all types of older music very well. It is somewhat more defined than the SDA's and more open (mono wise). It also has a much quieter backround. The music just appears.

The best part of this system is that old stuff sounds great! No more listening to all the audiophile cues I tend to look for. Even poor recordings seem to come through as intended rather than sounding like a very poor recording being played on a very good system. Stuff that normally sounds great sound very good but not great. Overall, this is a system where most poor recordings sound good.

madmax

[steveinaz]

Sounds cool. Do you have the speakers sitting together, or are they spread out?

[madmax]

They are in the standard stereo configuration sitting on the floor where my 1.2 SDA's used to be. This turned out really well because they do stereo pretty well too. I am using a little polk powered sub with them but it is turned way down. The whole system doesn't reach too low but plays bass notes very musically. I find myself following the bass line (mostly from the DQ-10's) quite a bit which is something I've never really done before.
madmax

[hearingimpared]

Very cool stuff MM. I have a whole **** load of mono records that I've either haven't heard in many years or haven't heard at all. I would love to hear a really good mono rig.

I just acquired two very heavy boxes of old, very old record albums that I want to clean up and play. I just don't know what speed they are and I'm almost positive they are mono.

[rskarvan]

Madmax, I've heard tube-mono through an electro-voice 15" speaker. It sounded VERY GOOD.

I think you are absolutely on the right track.

We have two ears. But, they are designed to hear one source.
Having two speakers just complicates and confuses things.

The music wasn't played in stereo.
The brain and ears weren't designed to hear two different sources.
The guitar, piano, drums, voice, etc... none are stereo.

You definitely are on the right track to audio purity.
I would even recommend going one step further and listening through a single driver - eliminating the crossover, tweeter, and bass woofer.
The sound will be more true.

[JimBRICK]

mono eh.......................dont start me on another hunt

[Yashu]

I am intrigued by this idea of mono with "imaging".

Are you saying that with a recording done just right, a single speaker could "trick" the ears into hearing a soundstage? I am not sure it works that way.

Something tells me that it would work in a similar way to a picture of something, vs. actually being there to see it with your two eyes.

Let me put it another way:

Mixing anything down to mono... whether it is a recording done with one mic, or a mixdown of something... you are taking the information stored in the form of perspective and threading it through a single point. Listening in mono is not going to give you a 3d-like image no matter how it is recorded, it is going to let you hear what it might be like to see a live show with one deaf ear. What makes matters worse, is that your speakers are going to be standing still... this means that, unlike, say, someone blind in one eye, motion will not be able to be used to offer multiple perspective, meaning you are going to hear all the sound, no matter what kind it is, come from one single spot dead center. Why would you want to thread an entire band or orchestra through a pinhole?

[beardog03]

I disagree..

I have heard mono systems that were so ......how do I put this..?
Imaged?...that I was blown away..

It does take placement to a different level though..

1 & 1 does make two....I imagine that the recordings make a huge difference though

[madmax]

To get image it takes the proper room. Think of a trumpet player playing in a room. It sounds a certain way and is what we expect. Let that trumpet player play outside with nothing for the sound to reflect off of. It will not sound as we expect in a room. Now, a single speaker would sound pretty bad if it were sitting outside but in a room it will have reflections. We like to think our stereo systems do not use the room much but they do. A mono speaker must certainly use the room to have an image as far as I can tell. The key seems to be getting enough of an image without everything sounding the same because of the room. As you can probably tell, I'm still working my way through many of the concepts. I haven't found much info on the internet to guide me. I guess back in those days they just hooked up a speaker, sat it in a place that sounded good and left it at that.
madmax