New Polks versus Old Polks [Archive]

Aaron

08-19-2002, 06:06 PM

Or the RT55, showing just how far Polk has come from those yukky vintage models, eh Aaron?

Since you can't seem to leave that comment in context, let me help you.

I'm probably going to offend the RTA-11T owners here, but you asked for it. I don't feel that these speakers do anything particularly well. My RT55's are superior in every respect except for deep bass extension. The 11T's are not detailed in the mids or the highs. The speakers sound hallow, like something is missing from the midrange (kind of Klipsch-like). The mid bass is fairly weak, but the low bass can be strong at certain frequencies. The bass seems to have nodes that are caused by the different tuning of the passive radiators. This creates for very uneven bass response. The RT55's have smoother and tighter bass. This speaker makes it clear how far Polk has come in the past 10 years. By the way, the 11T's were being driven by a 425W Carver amp.

I didn't see any mention of SDA's in there, did you? In my opinion the RT55's kick butt all over the RTA-11T's. Of course, that doesn't help Luc with his SDA question now does it?

Aaron

TroyD

08-19-2002, 06:07 PM

Don't worry, Aaron gets mad then gets glad.

BDT

RuSsMaN

08-19-2002, 06:08 PM

Not unless he has a Sony and Yammie amp to bi-amp with.

Where was this demo, in the old plaster-walled building you lived in at college, or the 7ft basement with a crooked neck?

I leave you with one final quote 'This speaker makes it clear how far Polk has come in the past 10 years'

Cheers,
Russ

nascarmann

08-19-2002, 06:09 PM

I wouldn't go so far as to say that the new ones are 'better' or 'worse', just different.

I think BDT is on to something here.....

TroyD

08-19-2002, 06:15 PM

body blow......body blow......

BDT

HBombToo

08-19-2002, 06:33 PM

Aaron, I just bought a pair of 55 and am not real impressed yet. I hope its a breakin thing... My RTA8T a damn good speaker.

TroyD

08-19-2002, 06:42 PM

I'm with you H-Bomb........I've been listening to the RTA12's all friggin day and just am digging them.

Different strokes for left handed people I always say.

BDT

Aaron

08-19-2002, 08:48 PM

Aaron, I just bought a pair of 55 and am not real impressed yet. I hope its a breakin thing... My RTA8T a damn good speaker.
You also have RT800's, right? What aren't you impressed with? How do you think your RTA-8T's compare to your 800's and 55's?

Aaron

mantis

08-19-2002, 09:15 PM

Wow,
all that over someones opnion.GE
You see Aaron they just don't have anything better to add to the poor guys post,just kick you in your ball bag, throw acouple of my quotes and there you have it.

I got something to add to this post other then the usual joking around.
OK,
speaker's really don't get outdated.New ones come out all the time, but the sound quality is I feel a personal one.I like the way some of the older Polk speakers sound over most of the new ones.Like the older Ls90's they where killer.The monitor 10b's verynice for the money.Then there is the Sda 2b's..I owned them and really didn't care for them.Then I felt that my Rt1000p's had there way with them.
The New Lsi lines I fell out of all the Polk's I have heard, they are more detailed and refined then anything they made in the past.....but thats just my ears.The rta8tl,rta11tl, and the mighty rta15tl's where all outstanding sounding speakers.I personally liked them alot.The 15's where kinda manly looking if you ever got a chance to see a pair..lots of drivers.
At one fine moment that went sour,I had a chance to buy the rta15tl's off a customer of mine,but he wouldn't allow it to happen,he didn't find his new speaker to replace them with yeat and wanted to keep them untill.......so He still owns the Polks as far as I know.
But there all good in there own way, you have to like the sound coming from them.
My Uncle has my Sda 2 b's and likes them, but his monitor 10b's are his babies.....I don't know why but he loves them more then any other speaker he has owned including the Sda's I gave him,and my rt100p's B&Ws and a long list of different speakers.
But He just sits there and enjoys the sound.....It brings back memories of Yesterday.......
Dan

jlitz

08-20-2002, 01:10 AM

I have a pair of Monitor 10's. I haven't had the pleasure of hearing any of the srs's but of what I have heard I think my 10's are the greatest speakers ever made. I am going to seek out the latest models such as the LSi's and the RT3000's so I can compare. I've heard some of the smaller Rt's at Circuit City and they just don't stand up to my 10's. They sound like they are missing something. Now maybe it is the fact that I am listening to them in Circuit City.

Speaking of CC. They just built a new one in my town and closed the older one. The new one doesn't have an enclosed room for sampling speakers. You have to contend with all the store noise as well. What morons.

I would like to know from someone with experience with them how the SRS's compared to the Monitors. I have always thought that the Monitors were kind of the SRS's little brothers but maybe not. What about Monitor vs. LSi?

Thanks,
Jason

HBombToo

08-20-2002, 11:45 AM

Aaron, I am impressed with the Bass on the 55's and have tried to listen for the difference you and RonP stated between the 800's and I think I know what your saying. I can't express what I hear the way you guys do but from a rookie I sense the 800's are a boom boom base and the 55's really tighten up from there. I'll keep boom boom up front with the sub and leave the 55's as surrounds during breakin.

As for the overall sound clarity of the 55, right now, I think I prefer the RT8. This may be just a breakin which I referred to and I have removed the RT8 from the system to give it a good breakin but the RT8 seem very clear and detailed and sensitive to even the sightest impulse. I have always had a really nice image from the RT8 and maybe I'm just being stubborn.

Just my rookie response in trying to explain what I hear.

trubluluc

08-22-2002, 02:14 AM

So far I've heard no strong reason to pursue the past, so, think I'll just keep what I have.
Less work to move around as well.

-Luc

mantis

08-22-2002, 07:18 PM

You havent heard a strong reason...funny I can't hear anything.......I guess I don't have my listen on.

nascarmann

08-22-2002, 07:38 PM

OK......I have not heard the LSi's so can't compare them to SDA's. One would think the LSi's are more accurate. But, the LSi's will not do things the SDA's will, just from sheer size they can't. I can tell you for me.....my SDA's will be staying in my house for a long time. IMO, the RTi's don't even come close to the SDA's and even Aaron's RT55's advanced speaker is no match in any way :rolleyes: One thing I will tell you, SDA's love all the power you can give them. They sound very good with lower levels of power, but to make them shine you need to pump them with lots of power.

F1nut

08-22-2002, 07:50 PM

Yeah....what he said.

mantis

08-22-2002, 10:20 PM

The Kingwannadothings has spoken!!

I was wondering though,
what things??Sheer size?Good things don't come in small packages?

Common man I know it took alot to post that post of yours but can you be alittle or should I say SHEER SIZE more acurate?

F1nut

08-23-2002, 12:32 AM

Sure they come in small packages...CRS+ and keep on growing. The first thing that comes to mind is the wide open soundstage, perfect placement of instruments/vocals, smooth highs and powerful bass.

mantis

08-23-2002, 08:27 AM

The Lsi 15's got it covered with a refined sound and deadly acurate.

mantis

08-23-2002, 08:27 AM

And with the right amp. lots of control.

TroyD

08-23-2002, 09:01 AM

just my .02 on the whole subject...

It would seem that there is a school of thought here that a speaker has to be the last word in definition and detail to qualify as a good speaker. I don't quite buy that or else we would all be listening to horn loaded speakers. I understand that once folks listen to the metal dome tweets etc. that WOW that is what a speaker HAS to sound like but, again, that's only one piece of the puzzle.

BDT

Aaron

08-23-2002, 10:32 AM

It would seem that there is a school of thought here that a speaker has to be the last word in definition and detail to qualify as a good speaker. I understand that once folks listen to the metal dome tweets etc. that WOW that is what a speaker HAS to sound like but, again, that's only one piece of the puzzle.
I'm of the definition and detail school of thought. The speaker has to do a few other things for me like image and throw a decent soundstage. I would also lump accuracy and transparency with detail and definition. After those things are attained I'll look for bass performance. Further down the list is presence. For me, to attain good definition/detail, imaging, and a large soundstage you'll have to spend $2000-3000. To add good bass performance to that list you'll jump the price up to $3500-5000 (or more). Lastly, to achieve presence and effortless power you'll probably have to spend $10,000+. Don't forget that amplification requirements jump accordingly as well.

I'm sure most of you are falling off your rocker about now and thinking that I'm crazy. Well, that may be. However, this is the level of performance that I'm looking for. This certainly doesn't apply to everyone, or most people for that matter. If a speaker can't meet my first set of requirements (particularly detail/definition), I don't care what else it does. So the speaker can play effortlessly loud with gobs of bass and have a sheer prescence unrivaled by most speakers, so what! If I'm not happy with the fundamental sound, those other performance parameters are meaningless to me.

I don't quite buy that or else we would all be listening to horn loaded speakers.
BDT
Huh?

Aaron

TroyD

08-23-2002, 10:51 AM

Let me clarify, as I'm not judging who is right or wrong as I don't believe it is a right or wrong question. Nor do I think that whatever floats ones boat is crazy.

What I meant by the horn reference, if you want detail, I think that is one of the selling points of the horn.

BDT

F1nut

08-23-2002, 07:08 PM

I'm not saying the Lsi isn't a good speaker (Mantis) but, I'd bet that in 10 years you can't get 2/3's of the original cost like you can with the SDA's! That my fine friend speaks volumes as to how well the SDA performs. I don't think your uncle is having "memories of Yesterday", he just knows a good speaker when he hears it. As for detail....I can hear the singers spit hit the mike when listening to my SDA's, how much more detail do you need!?!

mantis

08-23-2002, 11:13 PM

Allright,
I have heard most Polk speakers over the past 10 years or so.I think Polk has progressed in sound quality with The Lsi's over any other speaker to date.The older Ls90's where fantastic......not Lsi's.The Sda 2b's where at best a nice sounding speaker...again Not a match for Lsi.The Awesome SDA 2.3's are manly....not Lsi's.

But thats just my opnion.Everyone has a way they want there speakers to sound.I like older Polk sounding speakers.They have been doing a good job for years.I feel the Lsi 15's are the very best sounding speaker they ever made.

I'm more with Aaron on this then any other time.Speakers gain a level of clarity and detail not able at lower price points.Sure there are alot of great sounding speakers,I like alot of them, but to achive a level of Dynaudio Contour 1.8's or 3.0's you going to have to lay down some serious cash.Then the amp ,pre amp,wire and source all need to come together.10k easy drop in that line.25k not very hard.

Speakers and gear are all where we can get into,if you play your cards long enough maybe you can achive a level your looking for.Right now I have achived a level I was looking for.And I couldn't be happier....................for now!!

F1nut

08-23-2002, 11:39 PM

I'll be happier when I get some mono blocks for the manly speakers....:D

Chief CW4

08-26-2002, 01:50 PM

Hi guys,

What I was seeking was a sound setup that would do this:

Imagine a person sitting in great 4th row seats of a symphony hall listing to say a series of concert perfomances ranging from YoYo Ma in a cello/violin/piano trio to a full orchestra performance of 1812 overture complete with large tympany drums and/or actual cannons. This person is magically transported (a la Star Trek) into my living room couch, at the precise moment of my playing the CD's or better, DVD recordings of the identical perfomances at the precise time. The individual, if blindfolded, should be unable to tell whether he is in the actuall symphony hall or my living room. All sounds, width of stage image, volume and exact tonal reproduction (transparancy?) should precisely reproduce the live performance. No added (or diminished ) bass, sound levels just the same, etc. If listening to a recording of a small jazz club band, done in a small jazz club, that ambiance and sound should also be reproduced. I am not sure how that translates into some of the audiophile jargon I have seen here. Will a few of you pitch in and translate what I have said so I can get a better feel of some of your comments? Thanks. Oh, and will Monitor 10 B's in front, a 100 watt Polk sub woofer and R15's in back come close to this goal?

Karl/Chief

F1nut

08-26-2002, 08:06 PM

Karl,

The short answer....no!

What will get you what you're looking for.....how much money do you have?

MxStYlEpOlKmAn

08-26-2002, 08:26 PM

sounds like he needs some wilson audio...lol

TheOneRod

08-26-2002, 09:57 PM

One quote I used to say back in my "audio sales" days still applys:

"If it sounds good to you now, it will always sound good."

Something may come along that you like better, but a good sound is always in, no matter what era the equipment hails from. I have a Crest FA901 amp with the smoothest mid and highs you ever heard and it's probably ten years old now.

TroyD

08-26-2002, 10:07 PM

well said, amigo, well said.

BDT

mantis

08-27-2002, 12:49 AM

That is the question isn't it..........can I recreate it here, in my living space...........The answer is.......all you...nobody in here including myself can tell you different.

I say this alot and don't want to sound like a broken cd but you need to feel it,experience it.If the Monitor 10's are what your feeling....go with it....if there is a sound your lookin for....go find it.....understanding is experiencing......reading is a real good place to get focused.

My posts all come from experience not some mag I read or thing I read online.You'll get there,It's so hard to keep up with all the terms.......

Aaron

08-27-2002, 10:09 AM

My posts all come from experience not some mag I read or thing I read online.
And don't forget about all those reps that don't have a clue..... :rolleyes:

Aaron

nascarmann

08-27-2002, 10:14 AM

And don't forget about all those reps that don't have a clue.....

He He He a Ha Ha Ha......funny stuff Aaron...funny stuff... http://www.camelhigh.com/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif

TroyD

08-27-2002, 11:59 AM

You know Aaron, George would say, "It's okay you think SH sucks. What I think sucks, is that you'll have to spend all that money and still not come close to the Amazing's performance. Now THAT sucks." Yup, that's what George would say.

BDT

TroyD

08-27-2002, 12:08 PM

freakin' Holiday Inn Express, I tell ya.....

BDT

deq15

08-27-2002, 12:09 PM

Guys, The SDA's have the imaging - they have great presence - detailed response hi and low - superior powerhandling (my complaint with the rt55i's) and they have IMAGING - nothing holds up. There are plenty of great sounding speakers out there and you can have all that sonic holography you want - it doesnt hold up to a good set of SDA's

Aaron

08-27-2002, 12:14 PM

"What I think sucks, is that you'll have to spend all that money and still not come close to the Amazing's performance. Now THAT sucks."
It all depends what performance variables you value.

Aaron

Aaron

08-27-2002, 12:23 PM

"If it sounds good to you now, it will always sound good."

Something may come along that you like better, but a good sound is always in, no matter what era the equipment hails from.
I wish this were true for me, but it just ain't so. Haven't you ever experienced something that is so superior to what you're used to that when you go back to it you're acutely aware of how inferior it is?

Aaron

TroyD

08-27-2002, 01:20 PM

You can dance around all you like. those Amazing's were lumped in with Apogee Diva's, Wilson's, The big $ Martin-Logan's, and Duntechs. Except the Amazings are a tiny fraction of the cost of the others, and hold their own against them.

So what are the performance variables? Those things image like nobodys business, and do deep bass like nothing else. You didn't like the color?

BDT

Aaron

08-27-2002, 01:44 PM

So what are the performance variables? Those things image like nobodys business, and do deep bass like nothing else. You didn't like the color?
Refer to my post on the first page of this thread for my brief discussion of the performance variables that I value and the order in which I value them. Image like nobody's business? Pfft. Turn off the SH and see what happens. They hardly image in that room. The speakers are only 4' apart, and that room is really narrow. I'm sure they'd do better in a wider room. Bass performance and presence was very good; there's no disputing that. I wasn't that impressed with their detail and transparency. Sure, they're better than my Polks, but they don't compare to the $2000 Revel bookshelf's in those departments, let alone Martin Logans or Wilsons.

You can dance around all you like. those Amazing's were lumped in with Apogee Diva's, Wilson's, The big $ Martin-Logan's, and Duntechs. Except the Amazings are a tiny fraction of the cost of the others, and hold their own against them.
The Carver's are a good speaker for the money, no doubt, but they can in no way compare to Wilson or Martin Logan (unless you're talking about the cheap models). What are you smoking, Troy? Do you know what good sound is? Do you???

Aaron

Janusch

08-27-2002, 02:05 PM

Hi,
New to the Board and new to Polk. After reading some of the threads on the different kinds of speakers I'm wondering if I made a mistake.
The Great Indoors by me were clearancing out Polk RTI series speaker so I bought a set of them (4) RT55I (1) CS400I (2) FX50I and I picked up a receiver they were discontinuing. They did not have the LSI series in to demo. Know I'm afraid to go back because they will blow away the speakers I just bought and I'll have to return these, buy the new ones, and my wife will file for divorce.
So my question how much better are the new LSI9 compaired to the RT55I. How much more would you be willing to spend on them ( I got a decent deal of the the RTI speakers)?

Aaron

08-27-2002, 04:09 PM

The RTi line of speakers is great for the money. The LSi's are significantly better, yes, but they do cost twice as much. Since you got your RTi's on clearance, the price difference further widens. The other thing to consider is that the LSi speakers demand much better amplification. So, unless you have separates or a very good receiver, you're going to have to upgrade that as well. The bottom line is you get what you pay for. It seems that Polk offers an excellent speaker at all their price points, be it RTi or LSi. It just depends on your budget and expectations.

Aaron

TroyD

08-27-2002, 04:55 PM

No Aaron not the cheap models. The EXPENSIVE models. George showed me a review of the Carver Amazing's, from the Boston Audio Society. Now the Boston Audio Society has been listening to, and reviewing equipment, longer than you have been alive. Their findings JUST MIGHT be consistent with the truth, and they don't advertise in their periodical, so the reviews can't be "bought".

Bottom line was, " Spend up to $100,000 on the Wilson's, Apogee Diva's, the big Martin-Logans, or the Infinity Reference Standard. Don't think for a minute that by purchasing these you will surpass the Carver's. NOT TRUE! The Carver's are "just as good, a hair better, a hair inferior, but right there at $2,700/pair!"

I'll pass YOUR findings along to the BAS. With all your experience, I'm sure they'll run right out and retract their findings (and watch out for that winged pig).

BDT

nascarmann

08-27-2002, 05:11 PM

With all your experience, I'm sure they'll run right out and retract their findings (and watch out for that winged pig).

Help me out of the floor.......http://members.aol.com/nightdog35/images/smiley_rotflmao.gif http://members.aol.com/nightdog35/images/smiley_rotflmao.gif

Janusch

08-27-2002, 05:49 PM

Thanks Arron
But for safty reason I think I'm going to stay away form listening to the LSI's until the option of taking the RTI back is done with (30 Days) that way I will not be tempted into swaping. Just think this all started for me because I wanted to get a Bose Home theater system to make my new DVD player sound better. Where does this stuff end.

burdette

08-27-2002, 05:52 PM

Originally posted by trubluluc
Guys-

Been seeing alot of older SDA's on ebay and have to say, they are very impressive looking with all those drivers and tweeters.
Are they outdated?
How do they compare in sound to the new stuff?

-Luc

Just curious, and I know this is one of those questions without a real answer... you SDA guys here seem to LOVE these speakers... the ads on E-bay always have a lot of great stuff to say... and from what I understand SDAs are relatively rare.. so.. why are they for sale so often?

nascarmann

08-27-2002, 06:09 PM

In the last year I have seen 3 pair off "true" SDA SRS 1.2tl's for sale on ebay. I have seen 4-5 pair of "true" SDA SRS 2.3tl's in the last year or so and about the same number of the older SRS and 2.3's. I have seen 100-150 pair of used RT-55's in this same time frame.......why are they for sale so often?;)

RuSsMaN

08-27-2002, 06:14 PM

The show how far Polk has come in 10 yrs, or some such.

TroyD

08-27-2002, 06:16 PM

The WIVES are selling the big speakers. The mice are just along for the ride. (George's words, not mine)

BDT

TroyD

08-27-2002, 06:34 PM

Man, how did I get so smart all of a sudden?? Maybe there really IS something magical in the "imitation" magic closet.

BDT

RuSsMaN

08-27-2002, 06:38 PM

This is creeping me out man, its like that brylcreme soaked mofo Tony Rome bought the farm, and you are our 'medium' to speak to him....

Thats it, Im leaving the forum.

TroyD

08-27-2002, 06:39 PM

He's moving my lips!!!!

BDT

RuSsMaN

08-27-2002, 06:42 PM

I've decided to return to the forum, it feels good to be back.

TroyD

08-27-2002, 06:42 PM

you know, I've been eyeing this REALLY juicy looking 86 Caprice Classic of late.......

BDT

RuSsMaN

08-27-2002, 06:45 PM

PLEASE don't tell me its gun-metal grey with a black sock waving from the antenna....

Aaron

08-27-2002, 07:18 PM

No Aaron not the cheap models. The EXPENSIVE models.
The Ascent, which is a mid-line model, will handily outperform the Amazings in all categories but bass output. The Amazings have an edge in presence, but that's primarily due to their bass output.

George showed me a review of the Carver Amazing's, from the Boston Audio Society. Now the Boston Audio Society has been listening to, and reviewing equipment, longer than you have been alive. Their findings JUST MIGHT be consistent with the truth, and they don't advertise in their periodical, so the reviews can't be "bought".
One thing to point out is that we're talking about a review which is probably 10+ years old. Also, I'm comparing those speakers to the ones of today which is definitely a disadvantage for the Carver's. Yet another thing to consider is that George is using a Carver separates system and an inexpensive CD player while the systems I've been listening to have much more expensive gear. Again, an unfair advantage.

Bottom line was, " Spend up to $100,000 on the Wilson's, Apogee Diva's, the big Martin-Logans, or the Infinity Reference Standard. Don't think for a minute that by purchasing these you will surpass the Carver's. NOT TRUE! The Carver's are "just as good, a hair better, a hair inferior, but right there at $2,700/pair!"
The bottom line is I've heard better performance in detail, transparency, imaging, and soundstaging from a speaker for $2000. I don't need to spend $100k to surprass the Carver's in every aspect; I could do that for under $20k, and it would be embarrassing.

I'll pass YOUR findings along to the BAS. With all your experience, I'm sure they'll run right out and retract their findings (and watch out for that winged pig).
It is entirely possible that they've updated their opinion in the last 10+ years.....

Aaron

Aaron

08-27-2002, 07:20 PM

I have seen 100-150 pair of used RT-55's in this same time frame.......why are they for sale so often?;)
There are two really good reasons for this. One, Polk's are way more prevelant today than they were in the late '80's and early '90's thanks largely to CC. And two, there are a lot of people that sell the RT/RTi speakers new on eBay.

Aaron

nascarmann

08-27-2002, 07:32 PM

Try reading it again Aaron......

Aaron

08-27-2002, 07:47 PM

Were they really used or just on eBay? The primary reason is the first one, though.

Aaron

Janusch

08-27-2002, 07:50 PM

Aaron,
You also forgot to mention they are Cheap so more people are willing to try them and if they do not like them it is not a big lose to sell them. If you payed more for your speakers, even ten years ago, you would rather keep them then lose that much on your investment

Aaron

08-27-2002, 08:06 PM

Doh! I missed the obvious.

Aaron

TroyD

08-27-2002, 08:30 PM

If the obvious looks like a boat.... yup you missed it! You need to dis-accustom your ears to those world class surrounds you are reknowned for, and start smelling the coffee.

Last time I looked, George had a $1,600 heavily modified cd player. I realize you have expensive tastes (and a beer pocket), but $1,600 is not inexpensive. That is JUST the point I'm trying to make here though. You keep on equating "expensive" equipment, with fantastic performance. This is HARDLY the case, and it's much more fun to find the giant-killers.

You state that some type Martin-Logan's will HANDILY outperform the Amazing's. What access (on a regular basis) do you have to these items that you can make a statement like that? You have Amazing's? Logan's? Or do you try and remember what you've heard on past occasions. We, as humans, have about a 4 hour sonic memory.

The only thing that is enjoying an advantage here, is the voice of experience, and it doesn't sound like yours.

You scrape $20K together, build a home for your Bose.

BDT

TroyD

08-27-2002, 08:35 PM

Of course this is a PURELY opinion based topic but I'll chime in with my 2 cents.......

I reject the notion that just because something is not made in the last couple years, that it is inferior OR because something is of newer vintage, that it has to be better. That, IMO, is flawed logic.

I also believe that the products of Bob Carver, though wildly popular were vastly underrated. I have a threory that may have something to do with the fact that Carver didn't pander golden ear reviewers. Might have something to do with the fact that he proved that these same folks couldn't reliably distinguish between a Carver amp and a Levinson or Rowland amp (I believe it was Levinson or Rowland, I MIGHT remember later) so IMO, I'd also question just how much better the associated electronics effect is.

Further, expressing my opinion in a friendly fashion, is one pair of speakers better than another? Who freakin' cares? If YOU like your rig, that's all that matters, no?

I still say that the Amazings aren't too shabby for dried up ribbons that are almost monophonic due to thier placement. I'll go on record saying that George has got the most impressive rig that I've actually seen and is all the more impressive that it's actually in someones home, not a hifi shop demo room.

BDT

Janusch

08-27-2002, 08:43 PM

I'm a beer loving guy, and the RTI was a better sounding system then the Bose for the same price. Actual was a little cheaper. But if I went out and fell in love with the LSI I would not hasitate to sell them and lose a few hundered dollars. Where as I Bought the LSI and found something better I would be reluctant to loses a thousand.

MxStYlEpOlKmAn

08-27-2002, 10:09 PM

aaron has expensive tastes...he has blose cubes for surrounds...lol

no offense...lol

i think if someone goes out and buys a 5 piece system with a sub and a dorky lookin cd player receiver thing for 3000 dollars..have got to be out of their mind...lol

(after people can read all the reveiws about how the system sounds hollow and it didnt sound good at all in newayz...they still buy it...that makes it worse...lol)

but newayz im sure ur surrounds sound....umm great..lol

mantis

08-27-2002, 10:42 PM

TroyD,
I just want to know .....not arguing your points on the Carvers, but....how many pairs or demo's have you had with them?Do you own a pair?

With that being said...how many pairs of Wilson Watt Puppies have you listened to????
What about Martin Logan..ever hang around with the Prodigies or Monolith's????
What about Dynaudio Evidence Tempations or Confidence c7's????

I read your post and not once you stated you own personal opnion on these extreme speakers......2700 dollar hanging in there with the class above...real hard to believe.

I personally have had many hours listening to all except the Carvers.Do they still make them? Who sells them?Who uses these unbelievable speakers that I have never laid eyes on nor have had any of my clients..which are mostly rich audiophiles,even breathe a word about how good anything from carver is????????

Can you fill a brother in on what he is missing out on??????

mantis

08-27-2002, 10:43 PM

I say eff what

mantis

08-27-2002, 10:43 PM

I say eff what THEY SAY I want to read what YOU SAY!!!!!!!!!

RuSsMaN

08-27-2002, 10:52 PM

Dan, your 'good buddy' George owns Amazings, or did you not know that? You know, the George you said you enjoyed talking to on the 'old forum'......

Cheers,
Russ

George Grand

08-27-2002, 11:40 PM

Girls, girls, girls! Listen up now. Here you go, word for word, from the Journal of the Boston Audio Society:

"The speaker I have admired most is the Sound Lab A-1, a large, full range electrostatic, whose detail and transparency was unmatched until the Carvers."

" ...you are transformed by a listening experience that relegates the (ordinary) stereo world to the dark ages...it is your ticket to listening through to the actual performance-- you are there."

"The detail revealed by the Carver after break-in, is stunning."

"It has a wide soundstage, just right for a large orchestra, but maybe too big for a combo." (nobody said small Aaron, and I also doubt they were using a Hologram Generator).

"What you get with the Amazing is not only the best and least colored bass I have ever heard, but a clarity and stereo localization matched by only a few speakers."

"The Carver Loudspeaker Platinum Edition is my loudspeaker of choice. It can play loudly without strain, and the clarity and transparency are UNMATCHED by most commercially available speakers. It is one of the few loudspeakers I know of that does not require a subwoofer."

Saving the best for last ( and for Dan):

"Consider the most exalted ultrahigh-end loudspeaker systems in the world: the Infinity IRS and IRS Beta, the TOP-OF-THE-LINE Martin-Logans, the Sound Lab A series, the Wilson Audio WAMM, the Thiel CS-5, the Duntech Sovereign, the Apogee Diva, the B&W
Matrix 800, and others in that general bracket. Don't for a moment imagine that any of them is strikingly or overwhelmingly better than the Carver "Amazing Loudspeaker" Platinum Mk.IV, that stepping up to one of them from the Carver is to step into another world. NO WAY. The Carver is right up there--almost as good----better by a hair---not really as good, or what have you, but in there--at $2199 the pair!"

THESE GUYS DON'T DO ADVERTISEMENTS! They have NOTHING TO GAIN BY MAKING THESE STATEMENTS! Does Stereophile (lover of Logans, and Thiels and Wilsons) accept ads? You bet!! They also hated most Polks until their readership nosedived and all of a sudden the 25i was listenable. Go FIGURE!!!

I can't speak with certainty Dan, but I would venture your customers are hardly audiophiles. They sound like the typical "I got a lot of cash and need to flaunt it" club. Audiophiles letting someone else do their installs? I don't think so. You work with nice and expensive equipment. This doesn't mean someone else can't competently design and bring products in for a lot less than what you're installing.

If there is any of the above you guys can't fathom, bug somebody else about it. These things were the steal of the century, and maybe the best audio deal ever. Even at full price (let's not forget I paid $1100 for them, delivered to my door). You guys didn't get in on the audio deal of the century? Tough nuts. Go pay a lot more for a lot less.

While you're doing that, I'll go listen to some of the best speakers ever made. I think I'd rather do that, than listen to people with a limited amount of practical experience take apart the BAS' findings. I know you're an installer Dan. I started collecting hi-fi when I was about 15, started selling hi-fi professionally about 30 yrs ago, and still don't think it makes me an expert. Just a hobbyist.

George Grand (of the Jersey Grand's)

mantis

08-28-2002, 12:18 AM

George that really you???after all this time?????

You still in NJ???

Have you ever made the trip to Soundex?I worked there for awhile Installing,and It was the best audio/video experience on my professional quest.
I have heard some of if not the very best audio has to offer.I regret I never heard the Carver Amazings.I'd like 2.But..........in your entire post(ripping like old times)I didn't read much about how you actually feel and why.I say Eff that read good as it maybe.I don't buy into writing hype.....I buy into what I hear and feel when a system moves me.

I'll tell you what moves me Old friend......A pair of Krell 300 mono blocks running the NEW AND AMAZING Dynaudio Confidence c7's,wired with Transparent.I was so moved by the sound...NOT THE PRICE TAG OR WHAT THE GUYS HAD TO SAY.

As far as my customer then.....god damn right they had tons of cash.......to say none of them aren't audiophiles????you dead wrong!Some of them would come into the store just to hang out and talk audio.Be audio.Love audio as much if not more then the next guy.Some of those rich guys can afford Krell,Wilson Audio and Dynaudio,Mark Levinston and Transparent.

George welcome back to the forum........things have changed a bit.Polk is Polk........hey did you get a chance to listen to the new Polk line??the Lsi's???Like to hear your thoughts if you did.

O the expert thing????Being in sales......maybe true dude.....modest you are......hobbyist we all are my man,Just some of us still make a living on our Hobby.

liv4fam

08-28-2002, 12:29 AM

George reviews are reviews nothing more. Someone elses ears and views on audio, does it make the be all end all?NO! Stereo review said that the LSI 15's were not embarrased by the Dynaudio Evidence Temptations, and I would have to strongly disagree with that statement because I have heard both and it's not fair to compare two things that aren't even in the same universe.

liv4fam

08-28-2002, 12:46 AM

hey grandpa grands I think you need a hearing aid and some real world listening. Stop quotting other peoples sh*t and think of your own stuff to say and form a real opinion

mantis

08-28-2002, 12:48 AM

it must be the old age.......how can we compete with that????

hoosier21

08-28-2002, 12:55 AM

speachless..Almost

liv4fam you are a child, your only here to cause shit, do you know George Grand? who the hell are you say that shit?

From what I have seen in your posts you KNOW NOTHING. You are a little smartass son of a bitch that works at Tweeter, and like all the employees of that company and Circuit City, you don't know shit.

mantis

08-28-2002, 01:28 AM

hoosier21,
do you know liv4fam?he don't know shit huh!!!

I'll tell you what go head to head with him and see who doesn't know shit.

Dude I don't remember anyone ripping on you or did I miss something?

This is nothing that TroyD and Russman have done in here plenty times in the past.

I never met George but in the past have posted back and fourth with him........he's a cool dude from what I remember.That post he wrote needed to be addressed.Poking some fun isn't out of character in here.What you just said makes you just as bad if not worse.

Think alittle before you insult people personally.That post you just made was alittle raw my man!!!

George Grand

08-28-2002, 07:55 AM

Mr. Liv4FAM, and dunderheads such as he, are precisely the reason I avoid this forum. You want a quote there sonny?

"I throw away more good equipment than you'll ever see."

It also dawned on me, that if the stuff I presented was regarding Polk, you'd never question a thing. You'd be throwing dollars at the nearest dealer. But they didn't come from Valhalla, so you guys get bent out of shape.

Don't get on Hoosier, he's only acting like an adult. As far as the age thing, you're right, there's NOTHING you can do about it. All you can do is sit back and wait. And hope that with the age comes a LITTLE wisdom.

It wasn't nice being back.

George Grand (of the Jersey Grand's)

mantis

08-28-2002, 08:29 AM

Come on George all in good fun dude!!!

You can't speak that way for me though.Polk or not Polk speakers,I feel it's just a hard claim to believe without hearing the speakers personally.

Alot of guys around here post more about what they read then what they hear.I expected more from a personal note from you.Don't get mad,It would be nice to post with you again, As I remember correctly,you have alot of experience and could share some of that wisdom you have,Old man or not(LOLOLOL).

By the way if you know a better forum could you fill a brother in??
Dan

TroyD

08-28-2002, 08:41 AM

you know, this REALLY stinks.......It was GREAT having George around. Say what you want but about him (say anything mean about him and Wendi will break your legs!) but George knows his stuff.

Regarding the BAS findings on the Amazings, why would they lie? Riddle me this, they accept no advertising so they can't be bought and they kind of had to figure that what they printed about the Amazings would be scoffed at, so why print it? Maybe because it's true? EFF that 'read' if you want, but I'd put more stock in what they have to say than what any of us have to say here.

I also believe that he is correct about hard core audiophiles letting someone else set up thier rigs. I'd venture to say that a true audiophile would say to a pro installer (no disrespect to them)...'set 'em over there boys and I'll take it from there'
Hence the boxcutter reference.

Opinions are opinions and that is true....but George has been dealing with hifi.....oh, I'd guess, 35 years or so? Hifi salesman, DJ etc etc.....so as far as experience goes, yeah, I'd defer to his opinion. Not to mention, he has been listening to those Amazings, oh, for 10+ years.

As far as gear goes, I'll bet you that George will never bother to hear the LSi's. Why? because the old coot has has, oh, 4 pairs of speaks that I can think of (2 of which aren't even in USE) that I think are better than the LSi's so why would he bother?

Sheesh, you think that Russ and I are disrespectful? Man.....I think George is owed an apology however, I doubt he will be around to read it and that is OUR loss.

Troy

TroyD

08-28-2002, 08:54 AM

To me, the GREATEST tip of the hat to the Amazing is this:

The Lovely Wendi (who not so secretly LUSTS after George) sat in on a demo of the Amazings. Mind you, Wendi could care LESS about audio, and she was totally blown away. Now, she has listened to my rigs countless times and has not even given them a second thought. In fact, she was actually disappointed on our latest visit that she didn't get to listen to them.

Now, IMO, THAT is a testimonial to the Amazings.

BDT

nascarmann

08-28-2002, 09:35 AM

BDT.....I here where your are coming from. I wouldn't waste my breath (fingers) on the "Pro's" anymore.

It's too bad that maybe George was ready to come around again and it took the "Pro's" 5 min. to turn his stomach of this forum again.... :rolleyes:

RuSsMaN

08-28-2002, 11:27 AM

I'm so sick of the friggin retard parade, it used to be amusing, now it just gives me tired head.

Aaron

08-28-2002, 11:34 AM

It's pretty much pointless to debate which speaker is generically "better." Now if we're talking about which speaker is better "to me," then that's a different story. To me, there are much better speakers than the Amazings. That's not to take anything away from them, but the claims that they compare to virtually any speaker at any price is ridiculous from my experience. I would venture to say that they do more things right than most speakers at their price point, but they're still a trade off speaker. Just a random note, I prefer the sound of the Amazings to the SDA SRS-1.2's I heard.

It's true that just because something is expensive doesn't mean that it's good. Was this claim ever asserted? I've listened to many speakers at the $2000 price point, and it blows me away how much difference there is between them. You could take the best speaker at that price point and compare it to some speakers at twice its price. I bet it would outperform some $4000 speakers, but you also have to believe that there is a speaker at that price point that is a steal at its price and can compare to much more expensive speakers, let alone the one at $2000.

It's also true that just because something is newer doesn't mean that it's better. However, it would be naive to think that the state of the art in loudspeakers, or electronics in general, hasn't advanced in the past 10+ years. It seems that the high end is constantly being pushed, and the trickle down technology is reaching the average consumer making affordable speakers even better. My point being, the context of that review versus what I'm listening to today is completely different. I agree with Dan regarding reviews. I feel they are an excellent place to start your search, but in the end it comes down to what you like.

George, maybe the Amazings do image well and throw a decent soundstage, but I'll never hear it in your narrow room. Again, not a knock on your speakers, but they need a wider room. A $1600 CD player? I'll have to take your word on that.

Sonic memory only lasts for 4 hours? I guess it depends on what your definition of sonic memory is. I can describe with good accuracy the sound of the speakers that I've demoed. If two speakers are very close, then I would agree that it would be tough to make a call given a long amount of time between demos. However, when the speakers aren't close in performance, it is much easier, as is the case with the Amazings.

Aaron

RuSsMaN

08-28-2002, 11:51 AM

Originally posted by Aaron
It's pretty much pointless to debate which speaker is generically "better." ...............................

.............................

However, when the speakers aren't close in performance, it is much easier, as is the case with the Amazings.

Aaron

THAT makes sense, you are absolutley right, thanks for setting us all straight. What were we thinking?

TroyD

08-28-2002, 12:07 PM

OK, let me pose this then, and I say this as a matter of discourse, not who's right and who is wrong.....

OK, I agree that reviews written are a great place to start. I'd also agree that no two folks are going to hear things the same. However, in terms of credibility, what is written by the BAS holds a lot of water in my book, moreso that what is written in other publications as they don't accept advertising. Granted, it is an opinion but I think that whoever wrote it, probably has more experience than anyone here on the forum. Does it mean that it is absolute? Certainly not, but, in my book, it carries a good deal of weight. While, I certainly wouldn't dismiss the opinion of someone who's experience with a speaker is fairly limited (point in case, me and the Amazing) I would TEND to be more inclinded to be swayed by the opinion of a seemingly non-biased journal and the opinion of someone who is intimately familiar with said item.

As far as high end.....I'd agree that there is a significant trickle down effect in terms of the lower end beign raised up......however, it is my contention that the true 'high end' being much improved in the last 10 yrs....I don't know if that is true, IMO it's about the rate of diminishing returns. Coupled with the fact that basic speaker design hasn't changed all that much. I'm sure there are improvements but in terms of absolute improvement, my theory is that the gains are not as great as one might think. That's just my theory for what it is worth.

In the end, as I've said before and as Aaron said, there is no 'right' or 'wrong', just opinion.

BDT

burdette

08-28-2002, 12:08 PM

Originally posted by TroyD
He's moving my lips!!!!

BDT

I think the question is.. where is is hand?

TroyD

08-28-2002, 12:14 PM

burdette...

don't make me side step and attack the attack!!

BDT

mantis

08-28-2002, 12:18 PM

TroyD,
you seem to have a beef with the Lsi line....Is it because I own it?Thats how I take it.Whatever I do you just find your own twisted way to down it.............I never kicked anything you own my man.

Those speakers you like so much I have heard other in there lines but not sure I heard your model.I have good resources to get that to go and when I come across them I will give you my Honest opnion of them.

The Carver thing I already have an opnion.....they suck to me.I never liked there amps untill they released the Sunfire Tube amps.They sound pretty damn good.The Carver's of yesteryear I felt lacked punch and strong high's...like the range was cut off at the very top.

But thats ok for you to own what you like.......leave myt shit alone.I just so happen to like what I have and if you have a problem with it,don't beat around the bush,just say what you want and be done with it.

As far as George is conserned,I think he would make a nice add on tho the forum, if he leaves.....he leaves whatever.Id like him to stay.
You on the other hand is another time and placed..........story.

RuSsMaN

08-28-2002, 12:28 PM

blah blah blah blah

TroyD

08-28-2002, 12:30 PM

Dan, I'm certainly not kicking the LSi.......my demo with them was GREAT. Don't misunderstand that....if you think that I was saying that I don't like them, I apologize. They are on the list of speakers that I want.

What I AM saying is that as much as I like them, I think the DQ-10 is a better overall speaker. I has greater presence, much better soundstaging, more transparent ......the LSi, at high volumes has a bit smoother top end and my go a bit deeper in the bass department but I think the DQ rolls off more smoothly.

As far as your Rotel amp? I think, that Rotel is a great company. I don't have much experience with them other than the odd demo but I have never heard anything negative. I do subscribe to the theory that if you can bridge it that it isn't a true dual mono design but I could be wrong and in the end, it doesn't matter.

As far as Carver? Well, certainly your opinion is valid, my experience with Carver doesn't agree with your thoughts, but that's fine.

As far as the DQ-10's are concerned, I'd bet that if you polled 100 true 2ch audiophiles what the best 10 designs of all time were, that the DQ-10 would appear in the vast majority of them.

Anyone that would like to hear them, come on by, you are all welcome.

BDT

mantis

08-28-2002, 12:32 PM

Thats fine dude just wanted to end all this.

The forum doesn't need it if thing's raide up again just e mail me and keep it off the forum..I'll do the same.

TroyD

08-28-2002, 12:34 PM

More to the point Dan, I don't need to do it in private.....I don't have a problem with you or your gear. Period. Point out where I said the LSi's suck, I haven't. Matter of fact Micah can tell you that I was drooling, full on drooling over them

As far as the rest of the petty crap, I haven't attacked you or your gear, plain and simple. I've been (other than some good natured using of your quotes etc.) very cordial and intend to remain that way. Quote where I was rude or whatever, email it to me and I'll post it word for word with an apology.

BDT

TroyD

08-28-2002, 12:37 PM

What the forum doesn't need?

Check the post in OT that starts "We are the Mother******"

That's what the forum doesn't need.

BDT

RuSsMaN

08-28-2002, 12:38 PM

Mental friggin retardation.

Period.

burdette

08-28-2002, 03:44 PM

Maybe this thread has run its course.. but reading through on the stuff about the .. shit.. what was it.. Boston Audio Society? Anyway... as to their 'credibility' and no advertising... I still think any group can have their internal biases.. a consistent 'like' or 'dislike' of something or some style.

When I first got into audio in the early 80s, I'd read about the different 'sounds'.. west coast sound.. east coast... the 'new england' types of loudspeakers... one of the earliest lessons I was taught by my mentors at the time was "regardless of what else you buy, whatever brand, buy *only* American loudspeakers.. Japanese speakers suck and European speakers play only classical music well." That may or may not have been true... but what I wondered about in reading this thread was whether a group like the BAS (or Sterophile mag or whatever) could have a consistent bias for or against some "style" of sound or perhaps against certain companies.. I don't know.. thats why these are questions...

Also, just out of curiosity, do you think there still exists certain "styles" of speakers like west coast or east coast? I don't mean differences like the fact the Cerwin Vega speakers play LOUD and do a decent job on rock/pop/metal... I mean.. do certain companies voice their speakers a certain way that others would find displeasing.. or do you think there is a more consistent desire for 'neutral' that some companies simply do better?

TroyD

08-28-2002, 04:08 PM

I think that each company designs thier speakers, in part by preference of the designer but more prominently by what they believe will sell to thier target audience. Marketing by demographics if you will. I think that sound associated by geographic location isn't as prevalent now as it once was. Purely my opininon though.

BDT

TroyD

08-28-2002, 04:14 PM

I was thinking about something else? Anyone else heard a Sunfire tube amp? I wasn't aware that there was one.

BDT

Aaron

08-28-2002, 04:28 PM

I don't know about an amp, but they do have a 2-channel tube preamp.

Aaron

hoosier21

08-28-2002, 04:30 PM

Its a preamp right?

http://www.sunfire.com/products/index.html

Only seen the reviews at the site and audioreview.

TroyD

08-28-2002, 04:32 PM

yeah, I know about the preamp, but I wasn't aware of a tube power amp.

BDT

hoosier21

08-28-2002, 04:43 PM

Is there one?

shack

08-28-2002, 05:13 PM

I think burdette makes an excellent point. Even the Boston Audio Society has biases. Why would they make these statements since they don't have advertisers to answer to ect... WHY NOT...it is all subjective anyway and who knows what their point of reference is? To them this speaker meets the criteria to make their claims. The only thing a statement from the BAS might do for me is to get me interested to find out more. The BAS holds absolutely no credibility to me because I have no idea who they are. For all I know they could be a bunch of rednecks from Tennessee. I'm not going to buy anything on their recommendation only. I might go listen though.

A good point is that I really want to upgrade to some LSi9s but based on a recomendation from a friend and some things I've read I hope to listen to some B&W DM602 S3 (maybe the entire 600 series 3 line) and DM303s this weekend. Would I buy these or the LSi9s based on rave reviews from anyone without a listen? NO! But I'll give them a listen. Who knows!

TroyD

08-28-2002, 05:38 PM

Shack, I agree with what you are saying. My point is that, not that they are unbiased, but thier opinions are pretty credible. If they were a bunch of crackpots they wouldn't be published at all. The point is that their opinion and that of someone intimately familiar with a product carries more weight with me than the opinion of someone who doesn't have those credentials. Again, I'm not ridiculing anyone or dismissing anyones opinion but let's just say I'd find the opinions of the former more compelling than those of the latter.

BDT

TroyD

08-28-2002, 05:40 PM

hoosier, I don't know.....I wasn't aware of one but Dan said that he never liked Carver products until the release of Sunfire Tube amps. It just made me curious as I didn't even know there were Sunfire Tube amps.

BDT

RuSsMaN

08-28-2002, 05:41 PM

http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/

(tidbit from their welcome letter)

Dear Audiophile:

The Boston Audio Society is a 100% member-supported organization devoted to the exploration and enjoyment of all aspects of audio. For 27 years it has offered informative and thoughtful non-commercial commentary on the audio scene. Some of our contributors have gone on to professional prominence in the audio industry.

More than just a local society, the BAS speaks to the worldwide community of audiophiles. Society members range from the novice enthusiast to the technically sophisticated. All are devotees-- audiophiles in the best sense of the term -- and tend to be technically aware, informed about the marketplace, and keenly interested in the scientific method in a field dominated by myth and hyperbole.

For a sampling, check out the article from Tom Nousaine, for a good read....

http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/bas_speaker/wishful_thinking.htm

Aaron

08-28-2002, 05:53 PM

The thing that gets me is how some people hold this conspiracy theory about Stereophile (and others) and its advertisers. I can see them possibly not ripping up a piece of equipment that wasn't the best, but rather giving it a lukewarm, go-audition-it-for-yourself review. However, I think when they rave about a product, it's genuine. Also, I have a fair amount of faith in their "Recommended Components" list, but obviously I don't take it for the gospel.

Aaron

shack

08-28-2002, 05:59 PM

If they were a bunch of crackpots they wouldn't be published at all.

BDT - you might want to rethink that statement!!!

Aaron

08-28-2002, 06:07 PM

Agreed.

Aaron

burdette

08-28-2002, 06:07 PM

To be clear... I wasn't slamming nor singling out the BAS... my point was and is that regardless of where you are seeking advice, you are well-served by understanding any potential undercurrents or biases of the advice giver. When I was 15 and getting into audio, my mentor thought ill of Japanese speakers, and I took that to heart with nary a critical listen - just never ever again considered any Japanese speakers. I *still* carry that bias, and have never even listened seriously to a Japanese speaker when I was in the market to buy. Hell, maybe Yamaha and Pioneer make some kick-ass loudspeakers... but no one who has ever asked me FOR advice has heard anything except "buy American."

TheOneRod

08-28-2002, 10:29 PM

Bias'

(Bias's... Biases... :rolleyes: ...Bias - plural!)

are almost built into being human, it seems. On the sales floor selling pro audio gear (the stuff that records what's played on home gear) I heard lots of them:

The British sound is dry but accurate.

The American sound it dynamic but colored.

The Canadian ear leans toward bright, almost brittle (RUSH - MOVING PICTURES).

Japanese love the glitchy frills, the POP sound.

Germans love warmth... most of their gear is still tube driven (which COULD be not so bad).

These aren't MY observations. These come from the studio owners and techs. These guys will use these ideas to guide them, and when you're about to plop down $60,000 on that new Soundcraft, Neve, or Yamaha console more than a handful will listen to what they say.

Does that make them right? I don't know. If the musicians don't like what they hear they won't get any business, though.

It's rough on a guy to know what to do. It's input overload.