Hey! Still think that Prius is all it's cracked up to be?

[Jstas]

Just saw this article on another site.

Kind of puts it all in perspective.


http://clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/editorial/editorial_item.asp?NewsID=188

[PhantomOG]

I agree that most people tend to ignore the energy used to create hyrid vehicles.

However, I wonder about this part:

The Prius costs an average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles - the expected lifespan of the Hybrid.

The Hummer, on the other hand, costs a more fiscal $1.95 per mile to put on the road over an expected lifetime of 300,000 miles. That means the Hummer will last three times longer than a Prius and use less combined energy doing it.

Does the all Prius cars explode at 100,000 miles? I just wonder why they choose 100,000 miles as the end life. Does the electric battery die at that point? I know Hybrid's haven't been around that long, but I'm seriously surprised to see a statement saying they only last 100,000 miles. If so, that's a serious negative point going against buying one.

[RuSsMaN]

Same thoughts here. Any Toyota I've been around is just about broken in at 100K and running like a champ.

[PolkThug]

I think there is a similar arguement for building wind-powered power plants. It takes more resources to build one, than what it will produce.

[Jstas]

I think that's just how long Toyota is expecting them to survive. I'm told the batteries only last about 80K-100K miles and since they are critical to the operation of the car and insanely expensive, it will likely cost more to replace the batteries than the car will be worth at 100K miles.

You can't think of a car as a mechanical thing only when discussing things like this. They are an investment that requires maintenance and repair. Therefore they have an economical impact to the owner. They also depreciate in value and it may or may not be worth it to fix. So, if after 100K miles the battery goes bad and it costs $12K to replace the batteries and the car is worth $9K at best, it's in your best economical interests to get yourself a new car. That would be a "lifespan".

Also, because of the hazardousness of the batteries, Toyota may refuse to service the car any longer after the batteries are spent due to the environmental impact a broken or improperly disposed of battery can cause.

[strider]

I agree that most people tend to ignore the energy used to create hyrid vehicles.

However, I wonder about this part:



Does the all Prius cars explode at 100,000 miles? I just wonder why they choose 100,000 miles as the end life. Does the electric battery die at that point? I know Hybrid's haven't been around that long, but I'm seriously surprised to see a statement saying they only last 100,000 miles. If so, that's a serious negative point going against buying one.

The main battery has a life expectancy of 10 years, which is how long they are warrantied for. Nobody I talked to had heard an estimate of how many miles they're expected to last.

[Shizelbs]

A nice read. I won't believe it as the gospel, but I'm sure there is a lot of truth to it.

[liordra]

Does the all Prius cars explode at 100,000 miles? .


there is a Canadian Taxi driver who drove 410,000 KM (250,000 miles).
http://www.hybridexperience.ca/index.html#hybridtaxi


Prius Myths and their Rebuttals
http://priuschat.com/index.php?showtopic=26909

[madmax]

"So, if you are really an environmentalist - ditch the Prius. Instead, buy one of the most economical cars available - a Toyota Scion xB. The Scion only costs a paltry $0.48 per mile to put on the road."

That is exactly what I did and have not looked back. Given the purchase price, maintence and gas mileage I'm expecting to get off with around 25 cents per mile. And that includes throwing it in the trash at 100,000 miles, which I really don't think I will have to do.
madmax

[cmy330go]

300,000 miles out of a Hummer? I'm sure most will have been crushed and recycled LONG before that number.

[Danny Tse]

I heard Toyota's warranty for the batteries of the Prius is 10 years/150,000 miles (whichever comes first). However, here's the Prius warranty (http://www.toyotaownersonline.com/warranty/#prius) as stated on Toyota's website.

I found the below at this link (http://cartalk.com/board/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=hybrid&Number=198901&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1)....

If you live in California, Maine, Massachusetts, New York, or Vermont, the hybrid battery pack is covered separately under the added California emissions warranty. The Hybrid Battery Warranty in these states is 120 months (10 years) / 150,000 miles.

[tonyb]

Yada...Yada...Yada.....who cares?? Do you guys really see our future of driveing around in a souped up golf cart ? Not me...still an addict to the combustion engine.Don't think any alternative fuel ideas are going to sell unless they can put out the same power as a gasoline engine.Maybe some of you will feel better cause your " SAVEING THE PLANET " by buying a hybrid.
Sure would like to see a Hummer go 300,000 miles though.

[sucks2beme]

The real issue is more than battery life. What runs the batteries?
You got it, electricity. NOT FREE. It's just robbing Peter to pay
Paul. Good common sense in vehicle choice and usage will go much farther
than these stupid gimmicks.

[audiobliss]

Quite interesting, indeed.

[liordra]

The real issue is more than battery life. What runs the batteries?
You got it, electricity. NOT FREE. It's just robbing Peter to pay
Paul. Good common sense in vehicle choice and usage will go much farther
than these stupid gimmicks.

Green energy is not a about FREE or not. it is about the planet's survival.
in addition fossil fuel engines are utilizing roughly 40% of the fuel they consume . the rest is just poluting (and of course you pay for it).
the Prius battery is charged by using energy that would otherwise be lost (breaking) so you don't pay for it.

the real issue for me, is that the world is running out of (fossil) fuel. even if alternatives are more pollutant (and the Prius is not) they are at the very least worth exploring.
what I am saying is that there are two absolutes:
1. Fossil fuel won't last forever
2. Vodka.

both will eventually give you a headache.

[ohskigod]

I wonder if those mpg numbers are true if you drive a prius over 55 (like a more reasonable 80 on the highway). if it actuaaly drops to 45, thats only 7 mpg more than Dave and I got out of his Yaris on the way to polkfest (our best run was 38 mpg, and I think our worst was like 35)

[Demiurge]

Green energy is not a about FREE or not. it is about the planet's survival.
in addition fossil fuel engines are utilizing roughly 40% of the fuel they consume . the rest is just poluting (and of course you pay for it).
the Prius battery is charged by using energy that would otherwise be lost (breaking) so you don't pay for it.

the real issue for me, is that the world is running out of (fossil) fuel. even if alternatives are more pollutant (and the Prius is not) they are at the very least worth exploring.
what I am saying is that there are two absolutes:
1. Fossil fuel won't last forever
2. Vodka.

both will eventually give you a headache.

Yes, the planet won't last if humans don't save it.

How arrogant.

If we manage to nuke eachother into oblivion I guarantee the planet will live on just fine.

[shack]

Yada...Yada...Yada.....who cares?? Do you guys really see our future of driveing around in a souped up golf cart ?

ABSOLUTELY!

Don't think any alternative fuel ideas are going to sell unless they can put out the same power as a gasoline engine.

http://media.popularmechanics.com/images/Tesla-Roadster.jpg

The Tesla Roadster

0-60 in 4 seconds and top speed of 130 mph. I'd keep my golf clubs in the trunk of this car anyday. I am a cetified car nut (just ask Barry Meguiar) and would own one of these in a heatbeat. Nothing would please me more than to NEVER buy another drop of feul that comes from OPEC or the oil companies.

The comeback may be what about power/torque? Two words...Electric Locomotive. Electric motors can produce as much power as you want.

I am hoping in my lifetime to see high powered, long lasting electric vehicles at reasonable prices with the electricity to charge them being generated by nuclear fusion powerplants so we can tell all the oil producers to go to hell.

[ND13]

300,000 miles out of a Hummer? I'm sure most will have been crushed and recycled LONG before that number.


The 300K quote is most likely only good for the H1 diesels. I doubt that the light-truck based H2 or the Trailblazer based H3 have that life expectancy.

[madmax]

I wonder if those mpg numbers are true if you drive a prius over 55 (like a more reasonable 80 on the highway). if it actuaaly drops to 45, thats only 7 mpg more than Dave and I got out of his Yaris on the way to polkfest (our best run was 38 mpg, and I think our worst was like 35)

Here is the problem with gas mileage numbers. If you are used to cars with 15 to 20 mpg then a lot of things like quick acceleration, not driving efficiently, idling etc do not draw much attention to gas mileage. Lets say you normally get 20 but if you drive hard, let it idle a lot etc you may get 17. You never notice that. BUT, a car that gets 60mpg can drop off a lot of mpg's just because you let it idle a few times because it doesn't take much more fuel when going 55mph than it does to idle.

My blazer got 15 to 16mpg no matter how I drove it. My xB ranges from 29 if I drive it hard to 35 if I drive normally. Basically, I can notice 6mpg difference but not 1mpg difference.

[MillerLiteScott]

I get 11.2 MPG at best.

[strider]

ABSOLUTELY!



The comeback may be what about power/torque? Two words...Electric Locomotive. Electric motors can produce as much power as you want.

I am hoping in my lifetime to see high powered, long lasting electric vehicles at reasonable prices with the electricity to charge them being generated by nuclear fusion powerplants so we can tell all the oil producers to go to hell.
Amen to that!
Ever seen the torque curve of an electric motor? No curve at all, it's just there. The Prius is computer limited to prevent you frrom being able to burn the front tires off the wheels. They actually have really good pick up.

I don't think it's fair to saddle the Prius with that $3 dollar per mile spec. I do believe that the car is very expensive to produce, when a technology is new that's typically the case. What I don't believe is that the consumer pays the $3 per mile; the Prius has been sold at a loss to Toyota since it was brought out.

[madmax]

I don't think it's fair to saddle the Prius with that $3 dollar per mile spec. I do believe that the car is very expensive to produce, when a technology is new that's typically the case. What I don't believe is that the consumer pays the $3 per mile; the Prius has been sold at a loss to Toyota since it was brought out.

I read awhile back when I was researching cars that the prius actually costs something like $67K to build. (I couldn't find it now). I'm sure it is an investment in toyotas mind, not a loss.

As for power, you can't beat an electric motor for acceleration. :eek:

[madmax]

I get 11.2 MPG at best.

Suburban? :D
madmax

[strider]

I read awhile back when I was researching cars that the prius actually costs something like $67K to build. (I couldn't find it now). I'm sure it is an investment in toyotas mind, not a loss.


I think I heard something close to that number when they came out. I imagine it's turning out how Toyota wanted, think about all the publicity they've been getting frrom having the Hollywood crowd driving them. Now they've got the Camry and Highlander in a hybrid, I've also heard talk of them coming out with a hybrid version of the Tundra in the next few years. Supposed to have a flip up quarter panel with enough outlets to power a small job site. That is what I'm waiting for.

[cmy330go]

I think the Prius and like hybrids have their place. However if I had to rush out and buy an econ box right now. I would head straight for the VW dealership. The Jetta TDI gets fuel mileage that rivals the Prius, plus it is actually still fun to drive.

[jwhitakr]

A nice read. I won't believe it as the gospel, but I'm sure there is a lot of truth to it.

Dangerous...very dangerous. Why would you believe that there is any truth to that article? The author does not cite a single source for any of his "data" used in the argument. The web allows anyone to publish their thoughts and ideas, which is both the greatest thing about the web and, at the same time, the most dangerous.

[madmax]

I got to thinking about these cost per mile values this article spits out. I'm thinking they are way off. I analyzed my vehicle and came out with less than half what they said an xB costs. Their cost was .48 per mile, mine came to .23 per mile. I calculated insurance, gas, full list price of the vehicle plus sales tax and all other fees, registration, gasoline, maintainence, tires, repairs, brakes, cleaning, and inspections. What else is there? There is no way I'm off by over $50,000 in my calculations. ??
madmax

[PhantomOG]

Come on, you didn't know that the staff writer for Central Connecticut State University newspaper is the certifiable expert on lifetime vehicle economics?

But really, the article was just rehashing the CNW Dust to Dust (http://cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveenergy/) study as quoted.

If you want an article discussing it with a bias in the other direction read here: The Prius snob strikes back (http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2007/2/12/115426/732)

According to this person, CNW states:
The database used for the Excel spreadsheets is proprietary to CNW and will not be released.

When trying to discuss the lifetime energy cost of a vehicle there are countless factors that must be taken into account. Until they at least try to justify their results they don't mean a hill a beans to me. That said, I don't drive a hyrbid and probably never will. There are "snobs" on both sides of this argument and we'd all be better off just doing what's best for ourselves instead trying to tell everyone else what they should be driving.