Can some one explain this?

[bikezappa]

Carriles plotted the 1976 bombing of a Cuban jetliner that killed 73 people.

Why doesn't Bush use the Patriot Act and make him an enemy combanant?

Why?

Anti-Castro militant freed from custody
Awaits trial on immigration fraud charges
By Laura Wides-Munoz, Associated Press | April 20, 2007

MIAMI -- Anti-Castro militant Luis Posada Carriles, a former CIA operative suspected in a decades-old Cuban airliner bombing, was released from US custody yesterday and flew to Miami as he awaits trial on immigration fraud charges.

Breaking News Alerts Posada was released from a New Mexico jail after posting bond and will stay at his wife's house in Miami, said his lawyer, Felipe D. J. Millan. He was required to post a $250,000 bond and his wife, daughter, and son were required to post a $100,000 bond to secure his release.

Justice Department spokesman Dean Boyd said Posada was required to report to pretrial services immediately upon his arrival in Miami. There, he will receive an electronic monitoring device.

Posada was accompanied by US marshals, said officials with Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

Posada, 79, is awaiting a May 11 trial on allegations that he lied to immigration authorities while trying to become a naturalized citizen.

Earlier this week, an appeals court in New Orleans rejected the federal government's bid to keep Posada jailed until his trial. The release order puts him under 24-hour house arrest and stipulates that he wear an electronic monitoring device.

Posada is wanted in his native Cuba and in Venezuela, where he is accused of plotting the 1976 bombing of a Cuban jetliner that killed 73 people.

A judge ruled that he could not be deported to those countries because he might be tortured, and no other country has agreed to take him.

Attorneys for Venezuela have argued that under international law, if the United States decides not to return Posada to Venezuela, it should try him on the bombing charges.

Under the conditions of his release, Posada must try to find a country willing to take him, ICE officials said.

Posada has been jailed since March 2005, when he was caught in Miami and sent to El Paso to face immigration charges.

Posada's return was hailed by some in Miami who view him as a freedom fighter.

"He's quite old and in bad health. We believe he should be with his family and will not be a risk," said Angel De Fana, who heads a Miami-based group that supports political prisoners in Cuba and wrote a letter in favor of Posada's release.

Cuban media have been filled in recent days with condemnations of Posada's possible release, saying President Bush would be ultimately responsible if the anti-Castro fighter went free. In a written message last week, the Castro government accused the Bush administration of deciding "the liberation of the monster beforehand."

President Hugo Chávez of Venezuela, a Castro ally, yesterday called Posada's release proof of US hypocrisy in its war on terrorism.

"They say they fight against terrorism, [but] there it is! Their mask keeps falling off," Chávez said. "The US empire will end up being a paper tiger, and we will be tigers of steel!"

© Copyright 2007 Globe Newspaper Company.

[Demiurge]

What needs to be explained? Do you support Communism?


Posada is wanted in his native Cuba and in Venezuela, where he is accused of plotting the 1976 bombing of a Cuban jetliner that killed 73 people.


....by a pair of dictators. :rolleyes:

[jdhdiggs]

Use the Patriot act to lock him up? Did I miss the part where he was threatening and fighting against the US? I don't know if I even get the point you're trying to make.

[bikezappa]

OK I think I get what you are saying.

Am I to understand that you are saying it's OK to blow up a jet liner and kill 75 innocent people.

He was and is a terrorist.


This has nothing to with politics. Terrorism is terrorism.

[Demiurge]

OK I think I get what you are saying.

Am I to understand that you are saying it's OK to blow up a jet liner and kill 75 innocent people.

He was and is a terrorist.


This has nothing to with politics. Terrorism is terrorism.

Oh, it has everything to do with politics. It always does. You're also missing the part that he was accused, not guilty. We're not in the business of turning people over to rogue nations.

Anyhow, I see what you're trying to do here. How does it feel to align yourself with Hugo Chavez and Fidel Castro?

[ohskigod]

I would say the bombing of a plane is wrong either way, but was this guy ever tried? who has the evidence that he did it?

and....suffice it to say.... since he seems to be no threat to the US on a terrorism standpoint, the patriot act does not apply.

enemy combatants are the ones trying to kill us.......lets not lose focus here :confused:

[bikezappa]

Look in the mirror.

[read-alot]

How does it feel to align yourself with Hugo Chavez and Fidel Castro?

That was the impression I was getting, or should I say am.

[bobman1235]

Look in the mirror.

As others have said, he's ACCUSED by a Communist country that has probably one of the top five worst relationships with this country.

What is this, 1690's Salem, MA? The McCarthy trials? Anyone can yell "j'accuse" and have someone else arrested for being a witch / communist / terrorist / racist (Imus)?

Maybe the guy should be tried in the US, but it sounds like he's on death's door anyways, who really gives a shit what happens to an 80-year old man?

Bikezappa kills babies. Someone arrest him.

[jdhdiggs]

Exactly... Should we go on a worldwide man hunt for anyone who stands accused of any act of terrorism? Even ones committed by foreigners against foreigners over foreign soil? Really? Wow, so you really do want the US to control and police the whole world? If there was any chance of the guy getting a fair trial in either of those countries he would be handed over. That's all the US involveent should be.

BTW: What we we interrogate him on? How to apply ointments? Best denture cleaner? What?

The only thing I find interesting is they might actually deport someone for breaking the law....

[Bill Ayotte]

The only thing I find interesting is they might actually deport someone for breaking the law....
That is what I was thinking....There aren't enough cameras around all of the other people that enter this country illegally to actually do something about it.

[bikezappa]

As others have said, he's ACCUSED by a Communist country that has probably one of the top five worst relationships with this country.

What is this, 1690's Salem, MA? The McCarthy trials? Anyone can yell "j'accuse" and have someone else arrested for being a witch / communist / terrorist / racist (Imus)?

Maybe the guy should be tried in the US, but it sounds like he's on death's door anyways, who really gives a shit what happens to an 80-year old man?

Bikezappa kills babies. Someone arrest him.

This guy worked for the CIA.

It appears that he gets a free pass to kill 75 people in a jet.

I thought the president said that figthing terrorism was a world wide problem.

Why do we protect this man? Because he worked for the US.

Or to quote from 1984 by Orwell. "2+2=5 and he loved big brother".

I now understand why he is protected by our government based on everyone replies.

Thanks.

[read-alot]

It appeared like the whole Duke Lacrosse team was guilty too.

[Demiurge]

This guy worked for the CIA.

It appears that he gets a free pass to kill 75 people in a jet.

I thought the president said that figthing terrorism was a world wide problem.

Why do we protect this man? Because he worked for the US.

Or to quote from 1984 by Orwell. "2+2=5 and he loved big brother".

I now understand why he is protected by our government based on everyone replies.

Thanks.

Are you oblivious to facts or something? You keep stating things as fact that aren't proven. I mean, I really appreciate you trying to link this to George W. Bush (what this post is all about) in the attempt to prove a long shot of a point, but the man was accused by a communist country and a dictator for a plot in 1976.

He's also not being protected. He's just not being turned over to Cuba or Venezuela.

I'll never stop getting a chuckle out of moral relativists.

[bobman1235]

Can you just not read, zappa?

A) the guy is awaiting trial right now, so he obviously doesn't just "Get a pass" for being a CIA operative
B) he is ACCUSED by an ENEMY FOREIGN government of a crime which you in all your infinite wisdom have already convicted him of

Just because you don't like our country or what the CIA does or anything doesn't mean you can convict someone without a trial. Go hang out at the peace pole at Mack's Apples and talk about the big mean evil government.

[ohskigod]

This guy worked for the CIA.

It appears that he gets a free pass to kill 75 people in a jet.

I thought the president said that figthing terrorism was a world wide problem.

Why do we protect this man? Because he worked for the US.

Or to quote from 1984 by Orwell. "2+2=5 and he loved big brother".

I now understand why he is protected by our government based on everyone replies.

Thanks.



Go away BABYKILLER.....LOL :D

look dude, plain and simple, when someone is labelled a terrorist by Hugo and Fidel, we dont exactly put it to the top of the priority list. If it was....say england saying they wanted to try him, we'd probably deport him in 2 seconds, but Cuba and Venezuela? no.

My standpoint, if he did blow the plane, he's a scumbag plain and simple. but making it a defcon 1 emergency based soley on the words of a murderous dictator and Hugo "eff you gringos" chavez. We just dont put too much weight to it. and the american people, while not fans of people blowing up planes, might not be quick to judge because Fidel says so

[shack]

bikezappa must have ALL the pertinent information that clearly details both sides of the issue and that information clearly indicates that his view is the correct one. I'm sure he wouldn't start this thread for any other reason...like bashing one side of the political spectrum.

[bikezappa]

Cubana Flight 455 was a Cubana de Aviación flight departing from Barbados, via Trinidad, to Cuba. On 6 October 1976 two timebombs variously described as dynamite or C-4 planted on the Douglas DC-8 aircraft exploded, killing all 73 people on board.


Declassified FBI report that reads "[a confidential source] all but admitted that Posada and [Orlando] Bosch had engineered the bombing of the airline." [3]Investigators from Cuba, Venezuela and the United States traced the planting of the bombs to two Venezuelan passengers, Freddy Lugo and Hernán Ricardo Lozano. Both men were employed by Posada at his private detective agency based in Venezuela, and they both subsequently admitted to the crime. A week after the mens' confessions, Luis Posada and Orlando Bosch were arrested on charges of masterminding the attack, and were jailed in Venezuela.[19] Several Miami residents and Bosch met in the Dominican Republic shortly before the bombing and issued a statement declaring their intention of waging a terrorist campaign against Cuba.[7] National Security Archives reveal documents outlining that Posada warned the CIA months before the 1976 bombing that fellow exiles were planning such an attack.[20]

Posada escaped from prison with Freddie Lugo in 1977, turning themselves in to the less than sympathetic Chilean authorities. He was immediately extradited, and served a further eight years before escaping again dressed as a priest.[16] According to Posada, the escape was planned and financed by Jorge Mas Canosa, by then head of the Cuban American National Foundation, a group with close ties to the Reagan administration. [21] Mas then helped Posada settle in El Salvador, where he joined the White House-directed operations in the region. [21]

[bikezappa]

More data from our government.

I just happen to hate people/terrorists that put bombs on planes.

Do you?

Washington D.C. May 10, 2005 - Declassified CIA and FBI records posted today on the Web by the National Security Archive at George Washington University identify Cuban exile Luis Posada Carriles, who is apparently in Florida seeking asylum, as a former CIA agent and as one of the "engineer[s]" of the 1976 terrorist bombing of Cubana Airlines flight 455 that killed 73 passengers.

The documents include a November 1976 FBI report on the bombing cited in yesterday's New York Times article "Case of Cuban Exile Could Test the U.S. Definition of Terrorist," CIA trace reports covering the Agency's recruitment of Posada in the 1960s, as well as the FBI intelligence reporting on the downing of the plane. The Archive also posted a second FBI report, dated one day after the bombing, in which a confidential source "all but admitted that Posada and [Orlando] Bosch had engineered the bombing of the airline." In addition, the posting includes several documents relating to Bosch and his suspected role in the downing of the jetliner on October 6, 1976.

Using a false passport, Posada apparently snuck into the United States in late March and remains in hiding. His lawyer announced that Posada is asking the Bush administration for asylum because of the work he had done for the Central Intelligence Agency in the 1960s. The documents posted today include CIA records confirming that Posada was an agent in the 1960s and early 1970s, and remained an informant in regular contact with CIA officials at least until June 1976.

[shack]

Lot's of "it appears" and "all but" and suppositions it those releases....

It "appears" he is going through our legal system as one would have the right to do. The government has asked for things to happen and the courts have ruled. More "apparently" to follow. Too many so called news agencies want to become accuser, prosecutor, judge and jury when "reporting" something. You don't think they may have an agenda do you?

[Demiurge]

What are the sources on those 2 posts before I continue?

[bikezappa]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_Posada_Carriles

[Sami]

Maybe the same reason why Saddam was executed and Pinochet only served in house arrest. Saddam worked on the wrong side while Pinochet worked on the right side (pun intended).

Another mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist. That's the old truth and nothings going to change that. Russia considered Afghan rebels (mujahideen) terrorists, Carter & Reagan administrations considered them freedom fighters. When they turned against USA on 9/11 they turned to the wrong side so they became terrorists instead of freedom fighters. Russians must have been saying "I told you so". Well maybe not since I'm sure they know all about the hypocrazy surrounded on who is a terrorist and who isn't.

[bikezappa]

From Nation Security Archive

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB153/index.htm

You can call me names and say this and that about me but how would you feel if you had a friend on that plane?

Who cares if the man is old? He did it.

Show me some data that this man was innocent of this terrorist act. I may be wrong.

Goverments do bad things sometimes for good reasons. I just don't understand how Bush can say we all, that is the world, need to fight terrorism and give this guy a free pass, that is bail.

If you think he should be sent home that's ok. it's your decision and I won't call you names. Why do you need to call me names. Can't I express outrage that someone who killed 75 people is set free.

[Demiurge]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_Posada_Carriles

From the top of the page:


This article or section needs to be updated.

Parts of this article or section have been identified as no longer being up to date.

Please update the article to reflect recent events, and remove this template when finished.


The neutrality of this article is disputed.
Please see the discussion on the talk page.

For what it's worth, you or I could have written all of that. In fact, I could go in and change something right now if I wanted to.

In any event, Shack is right on. There's a lot of accusation and very little fact. There's no doubt he was involved with the C.I.A., is not a U.S. Citizen, is currently going through the U.S. judicial system, and did not bomb a plane.

The only accusation is that he helped plot an attack, and that accusation comes from:

http://www.masnoticias.net/fotos/fidel%20castro%208.gif

COMMUNIST DICATOR FIDEL CASTRO -- CUBA

and

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/images2/hugo_chavez2.jpg

COMMUNIST/SOCIALIST 'PRESIDENT' HUGO CHAVEZ -- VENEZUELA

If you want to apply U.S. standards to him he is then innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

That would not happen in Venezuela or Cuba. He would be summarily executed for crimes which he may or may not have commited.

I have far more respect for the man you're trying to go after with this post than I do for Fidel Castro, a man who has tortured, killed, and improsoned thousands of people without a trial.

Still want to try and compare the U.S. to Cuba and Venezuela....? :rolleyes:

[Demiurge]

From Nation Security Archive

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB153/index.htm

You can call me names and say this and that about me but how would you feel if you had a friend on that plane?

Who cares if the man is old? He did it.

Show me some data that this man was innocent of this terrorist act. I may be wrong.

Goverments do bad things sometimes for good reasons. I just don't understand how Bush can say we all, that is the world, need to fight terrorism and give this guy a free pass, that is bail.

If you think he should be sent home that's ok. it's your decision and I won't call you names. Why do you need to call me names. Can't I express outrage that someone who killed 75 people is set free.

First, it happened in 1976 -- so how on earth are you linking this to Bush? Second, Bush isn't a judge, he doesn't give bail. Judges do. We have checks and balances for exactly this reason. I'm going to wager a guess, but he probably doesn't know much about this at all. Wouldn't be at the top of my list. He's not an enemy of the U.S.

We're not going to extradite someone to a country who is going to kill a man without a trial and is also an enemy of the United States.

You've now called this man guilty in several posts. Where is your proof he is guilty? Why is the burden on us to prove his innocence? Aren't you innocent until proven guilty in this country? You're the one who needs to provide proof of guilt.

[Sami]

You've now called this man guilty in several posts. Where is your proof he is guilty?

Demi, there is a lot of evidence against him and that's not limited to the airline bombing. Letelier murder for one, which actually happened on US soil in Washington, DC and also took a life of his american assistant.

[read-alot]

"Letelier was killed by a car bomb explosion on September 21, 1976, in Sheridan Circle, along with his American assistant, Ronni Karpen Moffitt; her husband Michael Moffitt was injured but survived. Several people were prosecuted and convicted for the murder. Among them were Michael Townley, a DINA U.S. expatriate who had once worked for the CIA; General Manuel Contreras, former head of the DINA; and Brigadier Pedro Espinoza Bravo, also formerly of DINA. Townley was convicted in the United States in 1978; Contreras and Espinoza were convicted in Chile in 1993. General Augusto Pinochet, who died on December 10, 2006, was never brought to trial for the murders, although Townley implicated him as being responsible for them."

[Demiurge]

Demi, there is a lot of evidence against him and that's not limited to the airline bombing. Letelier murder for one, which actually happened on US soil in Washington, DC and also took a life of his american assistant.

You're guilty of a murder in Nebraska in 1985. You're guilty because I said so. There's a lot of evidence and you'll just have to take my word for it.

[bikezappa]

I don't understand why most people in this group think he is a good guy and not responsable of blowing up a jet.

I ask only ONE thing.

I googled him and could not find one article that says he is innocent.

Show me any credable report that says he is innocent of organizing the bombing the jet that kills 75 people.

I said Bush should declare him an enemy combatant that's all. Many other people have been declared this status with much less information.

I don't care when he organized the bombing, a terroristy is a terrorist.

I never compared the US to any other country.

I never said I hated this country.

I challenge any one to read our national security archive post about him.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB153/index.htm

A little data from our government about him may be informative.

[Sami]

You're guilty of a murder in Nebraska in 1985. You're guilty because I said so. There's a lot of evidence and you'll just have to take my word for it.

You can choose to ignore the evidence, that's fine.

[Sami]

"Letelier was killed by a car bomb explosion on September 21, 1976, in Sheridan Circle, along with his American assistant, Ronni Karpen Moffitt; her husband Michael Moffitt was injured but survived. Several people were prosecuted and convicted for the murder. Among them were Michael Townley, a DINA U.S. expatriate who had once worked for the CIA; General Manuel Contreras, former head of the DINA; and Brigadier Pedro Espinoza Bravo, also formerly of DINA. Townley was convicted in the United States in 1978; Contreras and Espinoza were convicted in Chile in 1993. General Augusto Pinochet, who died on December 10, 2006, was never brought to trial for the murders, although Townley implicated him as being responsible for them."

Carriles himself has said he was part of the plot to kill him.

Also from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letelier_case :

"In 1978, Chile agreed to extradite Townley to the United States. During his U.S. trial, Townley confessed that he had hired five anti-Castro Cuban exiles to booby-trap Letelier's car. According to Jean-Guy Allard, after consultations with the Coordination of United Revolutionary Organizations (CORU) leadership, including Luis Posada Carriles and Orlando Bosch, those elected to carry out the murder were Cuban-Americans José Dionisio "Bloodbath" Suárez, Virgilio Paz Romero, Alvin Ross DÃ*az, and brothers Guillermo and Ignacio Novo Sampoll [1][2]. According to the Miami Herald, Luis Posada Carriles was at this meeting, which formalized details that led to Letelier's death and also the Cubana bombing two weeks later."

[jdhdiggs]

Bike: You can't prove that he's GUILTY either! And several people have answered your question...

For the sake of argument, lets say that the mountain of evidence was overwhelming and he was guilty and we all knew that.

Why the hell should Bush declare him an enemy combatant? Did he attack the US? Has he engaged in conduct to undermine the US or it's interests in any way? If not, he can not by any stretch of the imagination be called an "enemy combatant". Hell, he could set of a nuke in Tehran or North Korea or Pakistan, or Sudan, or Kenya, or any other number of countries that we really don't give a rats ass about and not be an "enemy combatant".

He would be arrested and tried if he did any of that, but he still wouldn't be an enemy combatant.

So until he commits and attack, physically or verbally, against the US, its interests, or citizens, GW Bush won't give a crap about calling him an "enemy combatant"

I do love the people using wiki as a factual datasource... Hell, you can find out that 9-11 was a GW bush conspiracy to enter into a war with Iraq and to make oil money too!

[Sami]

Why the hell should Bush declare him an enemy combatant?

He shouldn't, but he should treat him for what he is, a terrorist. Otherwise he is making the whole meaning of a terrorist a double standard.

[read-alot]

Carriles himself has said he was part of the plot to kill him.

Also from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letelier_case :

" According to the Miami Herald, Luis Posada Carriles was at this meeting, which formalized details that led to Letelier's death and also the Cubana bombing two weeks later."

So he's guilty because a newspaper said so?

[Ricardo]

I did not want to get in this, but I feel I must.

1.- Posada was found guilty and went to prison in Venezuela; this was many many years before Chavez was democratically elected as president. I hate seeing myself writing this, but it's the truth. Chavez is not a dictator. I don't like him, and hate what he is doing to my country, but this is how it is.

2.- He escaped from prison (twice as I see).

3.- Many years later he was arrested in the U.S. for some immigration issues.

4.- Venezuela issued an extradition request to bring him back to make him pay for his crime.

End of story with the facts I know. Why the U.S. does not want to send him back, if it is related to his relationship to the C.I.A., or because they don't like Chavez, is a different story and I don't know it.

[bobman1235]

I don't understand why most people in this group think he is a good guy and not responsable of blowing up a jet.

I ask only ONE thing.

I googled him and could not find one article that says he is innocent.

Show me any credable report that says he is innocent of organizing the bombing the jet that kills 75 people.

I said Bush should declare him an enemy combatant that's all. Many other people have been declared this status with much less information.

Not one person said he was a good guy. Not one. Everyone said he's innocent until proven guilty. That's it. Beyond that, expecting the US to extradite ANYONE, regardless of circumstance, to an enemy country is ludicrous. He's being tried here for crimes he may have committed. Chances are he'll die before the trial's over, because he's an old man, but... he's being tried. What more do you want? Why did this guy get such a bug up your ass? All the bombs that kill hundreds of people a year in Israel are equally awful, you're not putting out a witch hunt for the perps of those atrocities.

[jdhdiggs]

Exactly. Again, Assuming he's guilty, he does not qualify as an enemy combatant. Your argument is completely disjointed and misguided.

I think your real question is why we don't just hand him over to Venezuela or Cuba for execution right?

[read-alot]

Exactly. Again, Assuming he's guilty, he does not qualify as an enemy combatant. Your argument is completely disjointed and misguided.

I think your real question is why we don't just hand him over to Venezuela or Cuba for execution right?


Nah Jd I think the real intent ( or question) was to blame George Bush.

[shack]

Nah Jd I think the real intent ( or question) was to blame George Bush.


Surely not! :rolleyes:

[jdhdiggs]

Nah Jd I think the real intent ( or question) was to blame George Bush.

For an airline bombing in '78?!? That's a hell of a stretch. Heck, Clinton forgave Osama in 6 years, and here he is holding a grudge for 30? :rolleyes:

[Demiurge]

I did not want to get in this, but I feel I must.

1.- Posada was found guilty and went to prison in Venezuela; this was many many years before Chavez was democratically elected as president. I hate seeing myself writing this, but it's the truth. Chavez is not a dictator. I don't like him, and hate what he is doing to my country, but this is how it is.

2.- He escaped from prison (twice as I see).

3.- Many years later he was arrested in the U.S. for some immigration issues.

4.- Venezuela issued an extradition request to bring him back to make him pay for his crime.

End of story with the facts I know. Why the U.S. does not want to send him back, if it is related to his relationship to the C.I.A., or because they don't like Chavez, is a different story and I don't know it.

He was as democratically elected as Saddam Hussein was in Iraq.

If I point a gun to your head and tell you to vote for me or I pull the trigger, am I still democratically elected? That's why I put his title in quotes. He's a member of the communist party in Venezuela.

Comparing the Venezuelan and Cuban justice system to the United States justice system is a complete joke.

Anyhow, read-a-lot already nailed what this thread is all about.

[Ricardo]

He was as democratically elected as Saddam Hussein was in Iraq.

If I point a gun to your head and tell you to vote for me or I pull the trigger, am I still democratically elected? That's why I put his title in quotes. He's a member of the communist party in Venezuela.

Comparing the Venezuelan and Cuban justice system to the United States justice system is a complete joke.

Anyhow, read-a-lot already nailed what this thread is all about.

You are way off here Demi; there has been no gun pointing to get people to vote. It is too complex of a story to tell it in a few words, but let's say that he has been wise enough to take advantage of weak points of previous governments, and has literally bought a huge sector of the country to his side.

[bikezappa]

[QUOTE= Why did this guy get such a bug up your ass? .[/QUOTE]

Because he was the first person to plan and organize the bombing of a plane in N America.

And he is now at home with his wife on bail.

That pisses me off.

And I were the president of the US I wouldn't allow that and I would use my powers to confine him as an enemy combatent. He has also been involved with other killings and bombings.

[read-alot]

That's just the point, he wasn't our enemy.

Be pissed of at Bin Laden or someone who is trying to kill you, as Ben Stein would say "there are plenty out there".

[bobman1235]

Luckily you will never be president, because even after three pages of this thread, you don't understand one of the most basic tenets of our Constitution - "innocent until proven guilty."

You also seem to not understand the phrase "enemy combatant" as it pertains to enemies of a nation. Nor do you understand that nations who are not in good relations do not tend to negotiate criminal exchanges between each other.

I understand being mad at someone you think may have killed lots of innocent people. But just try a LITTLE BIT to be reasonable and remember that you don't know as much about this case as you probably think you do, and that just because YOU and many others htink this man is guilty, doesn't mean he is.

[Demiurge]

You are way off here Demi; there has been no gun pointing to get people to vote. It is too complex of a story to tell it in a few words, but let's say that he has been wise enough to take advantage of weak points of previous governments, and has literally bought a huge sector of the country to his side.

Way off? You've proved exactly my point. The gun pointing is a figure of speech.

[Ricardo]

No. You compared Chavez to Saddam, which is very different. But you always win, right? :rolleyes:

[Sami]

Luckily you will never be president, because even after three pages of this thread, you don't understand one of the most basic tenets of our Constitution - "innocent until proven guilty."

He has been proven guilty.


You also seem to not understand the phrase "enemy combatant" as it pertains to enemies of a nation.

I think he is basing that on GWB's stance on terrorists. His "war on terror" = all terrorists are enemies of this nation.

[Sami]

He's being tried here for crimes he may have committed. Chances are he'll die before the trial's over, because he's an old man, but... he's being tried.

For what? Illegally entering US? He is not on trial here for his terrorist acts, and on top of that he is on bail.

[Sami]

So he's guilty because a newspaper said so?

No, Townley, the man who was found guilty.

[Sami]

Way off? You've proved exactly my point. The gun pointing is a figure of speech.

So you are saying there are no democratically elected leaders in this world? All are dictators? Both him and GWB are elected leaders, both are extreme wing politicians but on the different ends of the spectrum, both believe they are doing what's best for their country (or themself and their buddies), and both are (IMO) wrong.

Well, Chavez is a little more extreme than Georgie boy, and tried to take the country by force early on but who is counting? Just because he is against your political ideology doesn't make him a dictator, although everyone on the right wing side tries to believe that.

[jdhdiggs]

Can you point to the trial where he was found guilty? Oh wait, someone who was convicted for the crime said that he did it...

"Um, I know I was convicted of killing my wife but it really was Sami who set the whole thing up, ARREST HIM!!!"

[bobman1235]

He has been proven guilty.

This is getting tiring.

I know you all want to throw something on Bush here, and call him a hypocrite. The current "war on terror" is against people who are terrorist threats to the world TODAY. An 80-year old man who may or may not have bombed a plane DECADES ago, an atrocious and terrorist act, is not a threat to anyone. So just get rid of that idea.

I'm not trying to defend this man, he's most likely not the greatest person. But to say that anyone on death's door who committed a terrorist act 30 years ago should be this government's priority over those who intend to do the world harm TODAY is just ludicrous. LUDICROUS.

[bikezappa]

Luckily you will never be president, because even after three pages of this thread, you don't understand one of the most basic tenets of our Constitution - "innocent until proven guilty."

I don't think this killer should be on bail. He is a hired gun who can kill anybody. Would you allow a person with his record, see the Nation Archive site, to be on bail? I wouldn't. Do you like terrorists?

You also seem to not understand the phrase "enemy combatant" as it pertains to enemies of a nation. Nor do you understand that nations who are not in good relations do not tend to negotiate criminal exchanges between each other.

Bush has said many times it is the world against terror, that's why many nations sent troops to get that killer Ben laden. You can't pick and choose your terrorist. I just surprised that so many people on the thread are so sympathtic to this person. Why?

I understand being mad at someone you think may have killed lots of innocent people. But just try a LITTLE BIT to be reasonable and remember that you don't know as much about this case as you probably think you do, and that just because YOU and many others htink this man is guilty, doesn't mean he is.

And you do know much moreabout this. I never said I know every thing about this case. I know from the documents at many sites this guy is a terrorist. You think he is not guilty, why? What is your data to support that. What data do you have that any enemy combatants are guilty?

People on this thread have called me a communist and other things because I want this guy behind bars. Why do you want to defend him? What is your agenda?

I think it's reasonable to be afriad of some one that has been involved and planned a plane bombing to be kept in jail, not at home with his wife.

Isn't anyone suspisious of this man and fearful of what he has done and can do? Maybe we should give a pension and a cottage. Get real and use your brain.

[Demiurge]

So you are saying there are no democratically elected leaders in this world? All are dictators? Both him and GWB are elected leaders, both are extreme wing politicians but on the different ends of the spectrum, both believe they are doing what's best for their country (or themself and their buddies), and both are (IMO) wrong.

Well, Chavez is a little more extreme than Georgie boy, and tried to take the country by force early on but who is counting? Just because he is against your political ideology doesn't make him a dictator, although everyone on the right wing side tries to believe that.

No.

No.

Do you understand the difference between a constitutional republic and socialism? :confused:

What does any of this have to do with the original post?

[Demiurge]

And you do know much moreabout this. I never said I know every thing about this case. I know from the documents at many sites this guy is a terrorist. You think he is not guilty, why? What is your data to support that. What data do you have that any enemy combatants are guilty?

People on this thread have called me a communist and other things because I want this guy behind bars. Why do you want to defend him? What is your agenda?

I think it's reasonable to be afriad of some one that has been involved and planned a plane bombing to be kept in jail, not at home with his wife.

Isn't anyone suspisious of this man and fearful of what he has done and can do? Maybe we should give a pension and a cottage. Get real and use your brain.

You're motives are so transparent.

[aaharvel]

Well, Chavez is a little more extreme than Georgie boy, and tried to take the country by force

Sorry but that speaks volumes on Chavez's ability to decide who is and who isn't guilty of terrorism. Neither he or Castro have credibility on the subject, especially if someone was never convicted of a crime in a court of law to begin with. Guilty or innocent - who cares. It was before my time and the guy probably has to wake up 10 times a night just to take a piss.

[Sami]

Can you point to the trial where he was found guilty?

I checked what HTRookie said, and he was not convicted, he escaped prison while waiting a trial. So he is not convicted but he is a fugitive. This was in '85, three years before Chavez came to power. US has an extradition treaty with Venezuela: http://www.oas.org/JURIDICO/MLA/en/traites/en_traites-ext-usa-ven.pdf.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB153/index.htm

"In 1985, Posada escaped from prison in Venezuela where he had been incarcerated after the plane bombing and remains a fugitive from justice. He went directly to El Salvador, where he worked, using the alias "Ramon Medina," on the illegal contra resupply program being run by Lt. Col. Oliver North in the Reagan National Security Council. In 1998 he was interviewed by Ann Louise Bardach for the New York Times at a secret location in Aruba, and claimed responsibility for a string of hotel bombings in Havana during which eleven people were injured and one Italian businessman was killed."

[Sami]

Sorry but that speaks volumes on Chavez's ability to decide who is and who isn't guilty of terrorism.

It's been said quite a few times that this dates back to pre-Chavez era.

[aaharvel]

sure- but wasn't it stated in the original post that Castro government officials and Chavez are condemning the US now? Again, both Castro/Chavez aren't exactly "men of the people" themselves.

[Sami]

sure- but wasn't it stated in the original post that Castro government officials and Chavez are condemning the US now? Again, both Castro/Chavez aren't exactly "men of the people" themselves.

Well, poor people think Chavez is their man. Rich people not so much. Chavez is a socialist but he is hardly the same as Castro.

I think the whole argument is around the possible double standard there is if he isn't extradited. A good read if you can ignore the left wing tone of the article and take it with grain of salt.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1505793,00.html

http://www.handsoffvenezuela.org/cut_diplomatic_ties_us240505_4.htm

[bikezappa]

I think this article from the Boston Globe is a fair summation of Carriles situation.

The reason this bothers me is that we are the little guys, the guys in the planes. We don't have and never will have access to private jets. I just wish that all governments are doing their share to prosecute anyone suspected of blowing up a plane from anywhere. I don't think politics have any place in this situation. Just my opinion.


GLOBE EDITORIAL
Cubans can be terrorists, too
April 21, 2007

THE BUSH administration, which revels in its no-holds-barred approach to fighting terrorism, is treating one accused terrorist with extraordinary gentleness. Luis Posada Carriles worked for the CIA in the '60s and '70s, ran guns for the US-backed Contras in Central America in the '80s, and has many supporters among Cuban exiles. But he still is accused of masterminding the murder of 73 passengers and crew members on a Cuban airliner in 1976. He needs to be brought to account.

The Cuban government would like to get hold of Posada as well, but as a sign put up in Havana suggests ("Cuba Declares Him Guilty"), he couldn't expect a fair trial. The plane was flying from Caracas to Havana, so Venezuela is the logical venue. The two men who planted the bomb on board were tried there in the 1970s and have served their sentences. Venezuela has applied for extradition, and that request should be granted.

But instead Posada has just been released on bail for an immigration violation, and is now with friends and relatives in Miami. The administration is treating this case with delicacy, perhaps because of the CIA connection. Who knows what dirty dealings he might reveal? And the administration doesn't get along with Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez's increasingly authoritarian regime.

Yet justice for the deaths of 73 people should outweigh any concerns about ancient CIA revelations or about acceding to a request from Chávez. In any event, the administration has dealt with more repressive governments to combat terrorism.

Politics is also playing a role. Lenient treatment for Posada appeases the most extreme element of the exile community, a bulwark of Republican power in Florida. Seventeen years ago, the first President Bush approved the release of Orlando Bosch, an alleged conspirator with Posada who also had fled Venezuela for the United States. That administration was lobbied by Florida Republicans -- including Jeb Bush, son and brother of presidents, who became governor of the state with strong Cuban-American support.

Since his release Bosch has been living quietly in Florida. Posada is suspected of involvement in bombings at Cuban resorts in the 1990s and in an attempt to kill Castro in a room full of Panamanian students in 2000. Now age 79, he is slowing down, but with that past anyone without his Cuban exile connections would be a prime target for the US anti terrorism apparatus.

Venezuela is the most logical place for Posada to face trial. Failing that, the United States should comply with a 1971 international convention, under which any nation that refuses to extradite a suspect in an airliner attack is obligated to try that person itself. Either in the United States or Venezuela, Posada should be subject to a fair and comprehensive hearing on the murder charges, not the trivialities of an immigration offense.

© Copyright 2007 Globe Newspaper Company.

[mrbigbluelight]

I do love the people using wiki as a factual datasource... Hell, you can find out that 9-11 was a GW bush conspiracy to enter into a war with Iraq and to make oil money too!

Of course, we all know that we entered into a police action in Iraq to help bring democracy to that country.

[George Grand]

Peter, the first rule of showbiz is to KNOW YOUR AUDIENCE!!!!!!!

You get your ass verbally kicked everytime you do this. Why extend the opportunity? Don't answer that, just think about it.

[ohskigod]

die thread..............................DIE :p

[aaharvel]

i saw a killer national geographic special on poisonous snakes today. :D

[ohskigod]

i saw a killer national geographic special on poisonous snakes today. :D


if a poisonous snake bit this thread, it STILL wouldnt die!!!!! :D