I love the hip hop community!!

[ohskigod]

the logic here just blows my mind. this is a great little read :rolleyes:

http://www.drudgereport.com/flash1.htm

[zombie boy 2000]

I think it is infinitely telling when he states:
"It's about business, but it's still also a code of ethics."

I guess even morality is all about the Benjamins.

[Early B.]

I agree, in many ways, with the rapper. Eff the police! (except Darla).

Don't trust them at all. (A cop recently robbed, on several occasions, the bank branch where I do my banking.) Besides, the street is like the wild west -- you handle your own business and you protect what's yours. To many youth, cops are simply another gang. 'Eff 'em, I say.

[Face]

Typical piece of shit. I deal with mutts like this all the time.

[Demiurge]

I agree, in many ways, with the rapper. Eff the police! (except Darla).

Don't trust them at all. (A cop recently robbed, on several occasions, the bank branch where I do my banking.) Besides, the street is like the wild west -- you handle your own business and you protect what's yours. To many youth, cops are simply another gang. 'Eff 'em, I say.

Watch The Departed one too many times?

[shack]

I agree, in many ways, with the rapper. Eff the police! (except Darla).

Don't trust them at all. (A cop recently robbed, on several occasions, the bank branch where I do my banking.) Besides, the street is like the wild west -- you handle your own business and you protect what's yours. To many youth, cops are simply another gang. 'Eff 'em, I say.

What a sad statement.

[jdhdiggs]

I agree, in many ways, with the rapper. Eff the police! (except Darla).

Don't trust them at all. (A cop recently robbed, on several occasions, the bank branch where I do my banking.) Besides, the street is like the wild west -- you handle your own business and you protect what's yours. To many youth, cops are simply another gang. 'Eff 'em, I say.

I sincerely hope you're being sarcastic....

[schwarcw]

Sorry if I insult anyone, but I got to ask, would they squell on a white person?

[ohskigod]

judging from the statement, probably not. looks like no contact with the police under ANY circumstance.

so basically, if you live in the wrong neighborhood, you have NO RIGHT to police protection. Heck, I might even feel there stance if they did a better job of policing there own affairs

[jabrax]

Am I the only one lost in this thread.....start with an article between obama and lettereman and end up with hip hop and eff the police debate..

Dazed and confused lol

[ohskigod]

link's bringing you somewhere else I guess. Here's the article

---------------------------------

PLATINUM SELLING RAPPER TELLS '60 MINUTES': WOULDN'T HELP POLICE CATCH EVEN A SERIAL KILLER BECAUSE IT WOULD HURT HIS BUSINESS AND VIOLATE HIS 'CODE OF ETHICS'
Thu Apr 19 2007 12:47:1 ET

Rap star Cam'ron says there's no situation -- including a serial killer living next door -- that would cause him to help police in any way, because to do so would hurt his music sales and violate his "code of ethics." Cam'ron, whose real name is Cameron Giles, talks to Anderson Cooper for a report on how the hip-hop culture's message to shun the police has undermined efforts to solve murders across the country. Cooper's report will be broadcast on 60 MINUTES Sunday, April 22 (7:00-8:00 PM, ET/PT) on the CBS Television Network.

"If I knew the serial killer was living next door to me?" Giles responds to a hypothetical question posed by Cooper. "I wouldn't call and tell anybody on him -- but I'd probably move," says Giles. "But I'm not going to call and be like, ÔThe serial killer's in 4E.' " ( For an excerpt of Giles' interview, click here

Giles' "code of ethics" also extends to crimes committed against him. After being shot and wounded by gunmen, Giles refused to cooperate with police. Why? "Because...it would definitely hurt my business, and the way I was raised, I just don't do that," says Giles. Pressed by Cooper, who says had he been the victim, he would want his attacker to be caught, Giles explains further: "But then again, you're not going to be on the stage tonight in the middle of, say, Raleigh-Durham, North Carolina, with people with gold and platinum teeth and dreadlocks jumping up and down singing your songs, either," says Giles. "We're in two different lines of business."

"So for you, it's really about business?" Cooper asks.

"It's about business," Giles says, "but it's still also a code of ethics."

Rappers appear to be concerned about damaging what's known as their "street credibility," says Geoffrey Canada, an anti-violence advocate and educator from New York City's Harlem neighborhood. "It's one of those things that sells music and no one really quite understands why," says Canada. Their fans look up to artists if they come from the "meanest streets of the urban ghetto," he tells Cooper. For that reason, Canada says, they do not cooperate with the police.

Canada says in the poor New York City neighborhood he grew up in, only the criminals didn't talk to the police, but within today's hip-hop culture, that's changed. "It is now a cultural norm that is being preached in poor communities....It's like you can't be a black person if you have a set of values that say ÔI will not watch a crime happen in my community without getting involved to stop it,'" Canada tells Cooper.

Young people from some of New York's toughest neighborhoods echo Canada's assessment, calling the message not to help police "the rules" and helping the police "a crime" in their neighborhoods. These "rules" are contributing to a much lower percentage of arrests in homicide cases -- a statistic known as the "clearance rate" -- in largely poor, minority neighborhoods throughout the country, according to Prof. David Kennedy of the John Jay College of Criminal Justice. "I work in communities where the clearance rate for homicides has gone into the single digits," says Kennedy. The national rate for homicide clearance is 60 percent. "In these neighborhoods, we are on the verge of -- or maybe we have already lost -- the rule of law," he tells Cooper.

Says Canada, "It's like we're saying to the criminals, ÔYou can have our community....Do anything you want and we will either deal with it ourselves or we'll simply ignore it.' "

[Strong Bad]

Just waiting to see if Sharpton and Jackson reply to the 60 Minutes interview. My guess is if they do, it won't be close to the pounding they did on Imus. Heaven forbid, those brave courageous Rutgers girls survived that unholy attack he performed on them! :rolleyes:

[zombie boy 2000]

Actually....
Sharpton and the hip-hop community are engaged in a lil' lover's spat.

http://www.nydailynews.com/gossip/2007/04/17/2007-04-17_war_of_words_for_rev_al__rap_execs.html

[shack]

Just waiting to see if Sharpton and Jackson reply to the 60 Minutes interview. My guess is if they do, it won't be close to the pounding they did on Imus. Heaven forbid, those brave courageous Rutgers girls survived that unholy attack he performed on them! :rolleyes:

Seems no one is referring to their situation as a "tragedy" anymore. Interesting how perspective changes, isn't it?

[Early B.]

Imagine, for a moment, growing up in this rapper's neighborhood. There are two major dynamics going on when dealing with cops. First, there's the issues of police brutality, harassment, excessive force, imprisoning innocent victims, cops as criminals, etc., that are rampant throughout every major city in the country. Because of this, the lack of trust of police officers is the norm in the 'hood. No doubt. Then there's the issue of retaliation for "ratting" on anyone. In other words, you literally put your life on the line (and the lives of your family) if you snitch. In fact, you have to be extremely careful about being seen talking to a cop. So if both of these dynamics were operating in your neighborhood, what would you do?

[AndyGwis]

Watch The Departed one too many times?

and maybe listening to a little too much NWA as well. . .

Speaking of NWA, was staying "street" a good business decision for Eazy-E (dead), or selling out like Ice Cube (Oshea Jackson) and making millions for cheesy Hollywood movies?

I think Ice Cube being alive and very rich probably shows that "selling out" is the way to go.

[Demiurge]

I'd do what's right and then I'd move, and yes, it is possible.

[MSALLA]

It's a big jump from ratting on a friend to not helping with a serial killer. Everyone hates a cop till they need one.

[engtaz]

Well said

[jflail2]

Eesh, what an idiot.....Good thing he's a platinum artist spreading and perpetuating those "words of wisdom" in front of a national audience :(

For clarification Andy, Eazy E died from AIDs, not from "being gangsta." Last time I checked AIDs doesn't just afflict gangstas, gheys and drug addicts......

I understand what you're trying to say, but to blame an AIDs death on "da street" is ridiculous. I'm sure you can correlate the 2 in a roundabout way (ie: lack of education+ always chasin "hos"+no condom use b/c of lack of education= AIDs) but not directly....

Anyhoo.

[shack]

It's obvious that the "rapper's neighborhoods" will only continue their downward spial when the so called role models who are able to get out because of their success do nothing but perpetuate the climate of hate and lawlessness.

Of course it is that perpetuation of the "norm" that makes them their money.

[Face]

http://a597.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/00903/69/53/903503596_l.gif

[Sherardp]

I like Cam'ron, not sure if I agree with everything he says from an intellectual stand point. I guess when you grew up like allot of these rappers you feel like there is a code to the streets. So in a way I can relate, I wouldnt rat on anyone either. So from his point of view on life, he just makes money, drive murcielagos, and wears 200 million in diamonds. Dipset all day.........check out his music.

[wingnut4772]

If they don't want to help the police and the murders are increasing in their neighborhoods with no closed cases due to lack of cooperation...? I am not really seeing a growth industry here.

[Early B.]

If they don't want to help the police and the murders are increasing in their neighborhoods with no closed cases due to lack of cooperation...? I am not really seeing a growth industry here.

Agreed.

It's also a cop-out (pun intended -- haha) to blame the victim because that doesn't solve the problem. So what do you offer people who appear trapped in a hopeless situation? Ah, my friend, the answer lies in the question...

[Bill Ayotte]

If they don't want to help the police and the murders are increasing in their neighborhoods with no closed cases due to lack of cooperation...? I am not really seeing a growth industry here.

Hopefully all the "gangstas" will take them selves out sometime soon......For some reason, a bunch of rich suburban kids now think it is cool to act like a thug....Tell me the commercialization of that lifestyle had nothing to do with it...It is a shame to see how much people set themselves back....

Eesh, what an idiot.....Good thing he's a platinum artist spreading and perpetuating those "words of wisdom" in front of a national audience :(

For clarification Andy, Eazy E died from AIDs, not from "being gangsta." Last time I checked AIDs doesn't just afflict gangstas, gheys and drug addicts......

I understand what you're trying to say, but to blame an AIDs death on "da street" is ridiculous. I'm sure you can correlate the 2 in a roundabout way (ie: lack of education+ always chasin "hos"+no condom use b/c of lack of education= AIDs) but not directly....

Anyhoo.

I don't think he was blaming it on "da streets"........I think he was referring to what you said in the last couple of sentences of your post.....No education is a bullshit excuse in my opinion, when he was "bangin hos" the AIDS scare was rampant and promoting safe sex was everywhere, not just in school. His death was also portrayed as "gangsta", he went out "thugin it up and bangin hos", not being used as an example of what can happen to you living that type of lifestyle........

[ohskigod]

Agreed.

It's also a cop-out (pun intended -- haha) to blame the victim because that doesn't solve the problem. So what do you offer people who appear trapped in a hopeless situation? Ah, my friend, the answer lies in the question...



wouldnt call it a cop out. if the "victim" is not taking proactive steps to get out of the situation (i.e. MOVE!!!!!), then he is responsible for it.

I dont believe in counting on other people to get me out of trouble. The onus of my well being and safety rests ultimatly with me. Not that the Police and what not arent effective tools (at least in my eyes) to assist me in that quest, but if you solely count on the government for your safety and well being, then your effed. plain and simple.

the "victims" will do what they have to do if the juice is worth the squeeze so to speak. If there content living in that situation, then there not going to move (or at least go through what is certainly an immense task to do so)

[aaharvel]

'hiphop community' is an oxymoron. :rolleyes:

[Maurice]

I'd luv to jump in this one, but I'll shut the hell up.;)

[MacLeod]

I remember when NWA and the likes were first coming out. Me and all my friends couldnt figure out how one song was talking about the cops always harassing them, then the next song was about dealing drugs, shooting up malls and killing people. Sounds like the cops are "harassing" the right people!!

[TroyD]

What a bunch of crap.

I am SO sick and goddamn tired of the POLICE being blamed for the actions of a bunch of lowlife f&*king scumbags.

It's a crock of shiite. 95% of the population is able to live in relative peace and we want to rationalize and defend the actions of a bunch of barbarians? Bullshit. I'm sorry, the world ain't friggin' fair. It's less fair to some than others. That's the way it is, I'm sorry but you know what? Get over it. LOTS of people do and don't use it as an excuse to live like barbarians. Lots of people overcome obstacles of all sorts and better thier situation.

If we ever want to solve problems we need to stop whining. Stop crying, stop blaming. Take responsibility for YOU and yours.

Early, it's people who think like you that guarantee that things won't improve for some people. If you don't believe that people can be better and just accept the status quo, you need to pull your head out of your ass.

BDT

[wingnut4772]

'hiphop community' is an oxymoron. :rolleyes:

The key here is 'moron'.

[F1nut]

So if both of these dynamics were operating in your neighborhood, what would you do?



Move!

[TroyD]

..and while I'm in a mood.

You've got chuckleheads calling for the head of Don Imus who is guilty of nothing more than not being funny.....yet, zipperheads like this guy are making a FORTUNE for being capable and willing to do things that ACTUALLY hurt people.

I'm sorry, that's f*&ked up thinking. Yet it would appear that there is a segment of the population that is willing to accept that premise lock stock and barrel.

The power of stupidity never ceases to amaze me.

BDT

[wingnut4772]

One of the greatest books ever written.. that and Origin of the Species.

[TroyD]

Atlas Shrugged IS a great book. Ayn Rand had it going on.

BDT

[Maurice]

What a bunch of crap.

I am SO sick and goddamn tired of the POLICE being blamed for the actions of a bunch of lowlife f&*king scumbags.

It's a crock of shiite. 95% of the population is able to live in relative peace and we want to rationalize and defend the actions of a bunch of barbarians? Bullshit. I'm sorry, the world ain't friggin' fair. It's less fair to some than others. That's the way it is, I'm sorry but you know what? Get over it. LOTS of people do and don't use it as an excuse to live like barbarians. Lots of people overcome obstacles of all sorts and better thier situation.

If we ever want to solve problems we need to stop whining. Stop crying, stop blaming. Take responsibility for YOU and yours.

BDT

While I agree with your statements, its never quite that simple. First, this rapper does not speak for his entire community, let alone all black communities. Though his statements are very jaded and silly, they come from a basic truth within many communities. As a black man, I grew up in this type of situation and as you stated, did what I had to do to put myself in a much better position in life. I'm now a business owner, live in a beautiful home in the suburbs, the whole nine. Yet, because of all the things I have seen, even I still have a very deep seeded mistrust of law enforcement. Though I understand the need for them, and that most of law enforcement officials are upstanding, MY reality is that most of the law enforcement I have ever dealt with were scumbags. My point is this, your location shapes your perception.

This is where the rub is. For instance, anytime there is an outcry about police corruption, the first thing in response is usually "what about the good ones". Problem is, we're not talking about the good ones, but have issue with the bad ones that needs resolving. Its a lack of understanding on both sides of the fence. It never ends. What I've learned is when I'm talking to someone about something that they have experienced (and I have not), take their word for it rather than judging their opinions from a place of ignorance on my part. Even if I cant relate to their experience, I can gain understanding about issues I have never faced, and maybe even offer a possible solution.

just my .02, over and out.

[jabrax]

God I love these debates.............Confirms my thinking...Each and everyone of US isprejudice!!!! (didn't say racist or that it is a bad thing) Its just what it is hahaha

Our views coming from our past to formulate our opinions and thinking. You can almost pick each persons life situation from their response in this post.
Fasinating read

[TroyD]

Everyone has predjudiced in some way. I don't say that in a negative way, but we all have them about certain things. Someone who says they don't is full of shit.

I'm just tired of people making excuses and rationalizing behaviors by blaming someone else.

Now, are there bad cops? You betcha. Does that mean that because there are bad cops that it's ok to break the law? Advocate violence against cops? Glorify drug dealers / thugs as heroes? Hell no.

People, like Maurice shows, CAN break the cycle if they make that choice. Life is all about choices and I'm sick and tired of people trying to blame someone else for THIER bad choices.

BDT

[cfrizz]

Troy & Maurice, EXCELLENT posts!

[TroyD]

While I'm at it, here is another thing that I want to throw out there.

I understand that, for example, I don't know what it's like, for example, to grow up black in a poor black neighborhood. However, we all have our crosses to bear. So, I grew up dirt poor. I choose not to let those circumstances define who I am.

Just because I didn't grow up in a certain circumstances, I'm wholly unqualified to make an assesment? Respectfully, I disagree. Because the folks, in this example, who are bashing the cops (literally and figuratively) are doing just that. They certainly haven't walked a mile in a cops shoes. They see what they want to see as well. Also, I disagree that I can't judge a criminal because I haven't walked a mile in thier shoes. BS. If you are a criminal, you made that choice. Sorry, I don't buy it.

Everyone has thier particular issues. We all have to figure out a way to overcome them. Some have a taller order and while I have empathy, that's not an excuse. No one ever said life was easy or fair.

BDT

[Early B.]

Let's examine this situation objectively. We've all heard the phrase, "You are a product of your environment." Every psychologist, sociologist, social worker, criminiologist, or cultural anthropologist will attest to this statement. Unfortunately, many people are not tolerant of others unlike themselves or lack the understanding of the role the environment plays in shaping beliefs and behavior. There are words for this problem --- xenophobia, ethnocentrism, or plain ol' arrogance.

[aaharvel]

Let's examine this situation objectively. We've all heard the phrase, "You are a product of your environment." Every psychologist, sociologist, social worker, criminiologist, or cultural anthropologist will attest to this statement.

I have a BA in Soc, so yes that's true. That was hammered in my head for four years. Yes, you are a product of your environment - BUT you can also become an instrument of change, whether it's in your environment or not. And if you're lucky, you can change the environment as you go along. My problem with the hip-hop community (in general) is that they'd rather preach about injustice and in the process they end up making it worse for themselves as well as others around them through stigmas and stereotypes that are justified and celebrated in the actual songs they put out to impressionable young people. It's gotten to the point that doing something about it is akin to merely "selling out" and that helps nobody. Just my .02.

While I've always understood their argument to a point, it's things like the Duke rape case and the Imus aftermath that help me to see that yes, you are a product of your environment... and it's also much, much more complicated than that and simply putting a period at the end of that phrase is taking the easy way out. IMO.

[Early B.]

I have a BA in Soc, so yes that's true. That was hammered in my head for four years. Yes, you are a product of your environment. But you can also become an instrument of change, whether it's in your environment or not. And if you're lucky, you can change the environment as you go along. My problem with the hip-hop community (in general) is that they'd rather complain about injustice and in the process make it worse for both themselves and others around them than actually "sell out" and do something about it. Just my .02.

Yeah, hip-hop is horrible, but their messages are certainly not representative of their community any more than any other form of "artful" expression from any other sub-culture.

I also agree that you can change your environment and your thinking, but unfortunately, those who do are the exception rather than the rule.

[hearingimpared]

Imagine, for a moment, growing up in this rapper's neighborhood. There are two major dynamics going on when dealing with cops. First, there's the issues of police brutality, harassment, excessive force, imprisoning innocent victims, cops as criminals, etc., that are rampant throughout every major city in the country. Because of this, the lack of trust of police officers is the norm in the 'hood. No doubt. Then there's the issue of retaliation for "ratting" on anyone. In other words, you literally put your life on the line (and the lives of your family) if you snitch. In fact, you have to be extremely careful about being seen talking to a cop. So if both of these dynamics were operating in your neighborhood, what would you do?

You are kidding right? So what you are preaching along with that rapper is anarchy? Yep, that is a real good way to live.:rolleyes:

[jabrax]

Soooo, what is hip hop? Maybe, people are talking about different things.

Are you talking about hiphop the generation/culture (which I feel it is), or hiphop in terms of gansta rap music. I get the feeling people are speaking from what their perspective of what they view hiphop as.

Are we talking about the few artist who's comments give people a spot to pounce on the culture and consider that hiphop...Sorry, but hiphop is much larger than that.

Interesting how this persons comments are linked/considered to be the thinking of the whole hiphop community.

This thread has gone through an interesting evolution from a rappers comments, to poor black kids trying to get ahead. Last I checked, hiphop wasn't black. Most popular artist are, but the culture isn't (like it or not).

Tried to enjoy thread without commenting, but I had to throw in juuuusst a little.

Great thread and thanks for keeping the dialogue mature!!!!!

[cfrizz]

Again, I agree Troy.

The problem is how people are raised. If you are raised with parents who have low expectations, no goals, rant & rave about this that & the other thing & how you aren't allowed by whomever to get out of it & are not encouraged by your parents by word or example to get out of it, where are you going to end up?

Environment has less to do with how these people turn out than the examples set before them by the most important people around them!

My brothers & I didn't exactly grow up in the best of environments. But that didn't stop my father from working 2 jobs while he got his Masters degree in music. It didn't stop our parents from insisting that we pay attention, obey our teachers & get good grades in school or suffer a sore ass if we didn't!

It didn't stop them from teaching us that if we work hard, treat everyone with respect, and that there are good & bad people in all walks of life & all colors. So don't put everyone into one catagory.

Most of all they taught us to think for ourselves, that it was better to NOT go along with the crowd & to do what is right for any given situation. Not what everyone else thinks should be done.

In so doing this, we removed ourselves from a less than adequate environment as soon as financially possible. And we have suceeded because our parents set & had higher expectations for us.

While I'm at it, here is another thing that I want to throw out there.

I understand that, for example, I don't know what it's like, for example, to grow up black in a poor black neighborhood. However, we all have our crosses to bear. So, I grew up dirt poor. I choose not to let those circumstances define who I am.

Just because I didn't grow up in a certain circumstances, I'm wholly unqualified to make an assesment? Respectfully, I disagree. Because the folks, in this example, who are bashing the cops (literally and figuratively) are doing just that. They certainly haven't walked a mile in a cops shoes. They see what they want to see as well. Also, I disagree that I can't judge a criminal because I haven't walked a mile in thier shoes. BS. If you are a criminal, you made that choice. Sorry, I don't buy it.

Everyone has thier particular issues. We all have to figure out a way to overcome them. Some have a taller order and while I have empathy, that's not an excuse. No one ever said life was easy or fair.

BDT

[hearingimpared]

Most of all they taught us to think for ourselves, that it was better to NOT go along with the crowd & to do what is right for any given situation. Not what everyone else thinks should be done.

Of all the things you've ever noted about life Cathy this is the single most important thing that my parents instillled in my sister, brothers, and I (good work ethic is in there too). DON'T FOLLOW THE CROWD and that is exactly the opposite that this greedy rapper is perpetuating. . . do as we say . . . eff the cops, society is out to get you. Bad business for black kids, white kids, oriental kids, Hispanic kids, all kids in this country who listen to that rotten message of hate and distain for anything outside of that sick culture they are preaching.

[Early B.]

Environment has less to do with how these people turn out than the examples set before them by the most important people around them!

The majority of people growing up in this kind of environment, regardless of race, don't have hard working parents who eventually get their Master's degrees. Furthermore, the most important people around them are not often their parent(s), who may be in jail, hooked on drugs, or whatever. So what happens is that young people perceive the most important people are those in their environment who have the most money. Guess who that is?

[aaharvel]

"Environment has less to do with how these people turn out than the examples set before them by the most important people around them"

aka - One's environment.

[cfrizz]

Fine, whatever. The point is, if you know your environment is bad...GET THE HELL OUT! Don't just sit there & blame everyone else for it.

[shack]

Fine, whatever. The point is, if you know your environment is bad...GET THE HELL OUT! Don't just sit there & blame everyone else for it.

Are you trying to tell us that people should take responsibility for their own lives rather than blame almost everyone else for their problems? Maybe even get educated, work hard and don't expect a handout or break from anyone, much less the government? As I understand what is being said...the ENVIRONMENT is such a strong force, it prevents any of that from happening. Silly woman....:rolleyes:

[jdhdiggs]

No Shack, it's your fault, and mine, that their parents and communities suck. Don't you know that? It can't be because they haven't done much to better their situation. No, couldn't be that...

[aaharvel]

#43. re-read (or just read). ;)

[Early B.]

#43. re-read (or just read). ;)

Then re-read #44.;)

[cfrizz]

So sorry Shack & JD. I don't know what I was thinking!:eek: What I stated worked for me & mine, so I figured it could work for anyone. I guess we just got lucky:rolleyes: :eek: :D

[aaharvel]

Then re-read #44.;)

HA!!

[jabrax]

So sorry Shack & JD. I don't know what I was thinking!:eek: What I stated worked for me & mine, so I figured it could work for anyone. I guess we just got lucky:rolleyes: :eek: :D

Yes, you were fortunate, kinda...There are many who do....I being a product of a very similar situation running with a very strong gang. Fortunately, I was naturally good with academics (not the case with everyone). I could sit in class high every day, roll with the crew in and out of school and still pull grades. It would be foolish of me to think that everyone I rolled with would/could do that and fortunatly for me my parents never being home (a trickle problem of have to work so much) because they were out busting their asses had no idea of the shit I was into. On the other side, when you see the parents who were busting their asses constantly being beat down trying to compete for scraps, maybe you can see why they say f this or that and makes it even tougher for their siblings who have to see and hear it everyday.

Lets face it....for the 40 year old generation....Our black and white grandparents probably don't like (i said probably) each other. The children of these grandparents (especially black) were taking ass whoopings for opportunity to vote (example.) So how many opportunities in that era were there to get out. Not saying it is an excuse, it is a fact that they are still alive and their children (my genaration 40's) had more opprunities to make right. My children have even more oppronuties as the generations go through cycles. Still, there is only so much room to get out at a time. Economics just isnt set up for it. As Troy D so eloquently stated (kinda) earlier, there will always be haves and have nots. We may not agree with the perception of the have-nots, but you put a mic in there face and say speak about what you have dealt with and feel, and we wont always like what we hear, agree or disagree.

Damn, I just reread what I was typing and I was all over frigging place. Couldn't type fast enough to keep up with the thoughts. I tried to cut the points short, but it is leaving wholes in thoughts. So I will just leave as is and close on the topic.

Again, fascinating read :cool:

Jeff

[hearingimpared]

Yes, you were fortunate, kinda...There are many who do....I being a product of a very similar situation running with a very strong gang. Fortunately, I was naturally good with academics (not the case with everyone). I could sit in class high every day, roll with the crew in and out of school and still pull grades. It would be foolish of me to think that everyone I rolled with would/could do that and fortunatly for me my parents never being home (a trickle problem of have to work so much) because they were out busting their asses had no idea of the shit I was into. On the other side, when you see the parents who were busting their asses constantly being beat down trying to compete for scraps, maybe you can see why they say f this or that and makes it even tougher for their siblings who have to see and hear it everyday.

Lets face it....for the 40 year old generation....Our black and white grandparents probably don't like (i said probably) each other. The children of these grandparents (especially black) were taking ass whoopings for opportunity to vote (example.) So how many opportunities in that era were there to get out. Not saying it is an excuse, it is a fact that they are still alive and their children (my genaration 40's) had more opprunities to make right. My children have even more oppronuties as the generations go through cycles. Still, there is only so much room to get out at a time. Economics just isnt set up for it. As Troy D so eloquently stated (kinda) earlier, there will always be haves and have nots. We may not agree with the perception of the have-nots, but you put a mic in there face and say speak about what you have dealt with and feel, and we wont always like what we hear, agree or disagree.

Damn, I just reread what I was typing and I was all over frigging place. Couldn't type fast enough to keep up with the thoughts. I tried to cut the points short, but it is leaving wholes in thoughts. So I will just leave as is and close on the topic.

Again, fascinating read :cool:

Jeff

The way I see it, to black people it is a white & black issue. I'm 1st generation Italian and IMHO it is not a black & white issue. Italians, Irish, Germans etc are all "white" and each has had their fair share of trying to get up and out. Now I am not saying they had to overcome slavery issues but it is not as easy as saying black & white.

[George Grand]

Early, stop using your money for stereo stuff. Sell it all, and either move out of your neighborhood, or use the money to get some help.

[TroyD]

Ok, this is sort of aimed at both Jeff and Early...

Yes, the elder generations did go through trials and tribulations. However, for the most part, it's not THEM out there selling drugs, producing a generation of children without parents, advocating violence against police etc...now is it?

There is discrimination out there. Against women, Asians, Latinos, Jews....etc etc etc. There is discrimination everywhere. It just is and most of the time, it's not neccessarily intentional. So, if the roadblocks are there, a decision must be made.....either find a way around or give up and use it as an excuse for failure.

Now, the segment of the population that uses it as an excuse for failure....that's bullshit even worse is to glorify that excuse and wear it as a banner for all to follow. As far as being a product of your environment, to an extent, ok. However, we don't live in a damn vacuum, there is enough media and exposure to different things that I don't buy that people can't see there way out. It's a friggin' cop out.

See and to me this is the difference. People like me are seen as callous and uncaring. That's absolutely not true. I want everyone to succeed. However, I think that patronizing people, telling them it's not thier fault that they are fuckups and giving them a handout is the answer. To succeed requires sacrifice and it's going to be harder for some. For those that choose to be a vicitm of circumstance, they get no such sympathy from me.

Beyond that, I also see ZERO reason, regardless, why it's such a stretch to expect people to abide by the laws and be civil. There is NO excuse why there are some places you need an armored brigade to go through certain neighborhoods. There is NO excuse for that sort of shit.

BDT

[jdhdiggs]

The way I see it, to black people is a white & black issue. I'm 1st generation Italian and IMHO it is not a black & white issue. Italians, Irish, Germans etc are all "white" and each has had their fair share of trying to get up and out. Now I am not saying they had to overcome slavery issues but it is not as easy as saying black & white.

What about the Chinese/Orientals? They were slaves as well and, for the most part, have worked themselves out of that situation. The Irish and Jewish settlers were abused just as bad, if not worse, than the freed slaves. Mexican immigrants are currently worse off than their contemporary black communities. I just really don't get the "we're victims" mindset.....

Cathy: I don't think you were lucky, you just realized that it took some work to get out of the "trap". For once, i whole heartedly agree with you. :D

[PolkThug]

Ya think this rapper got the publicity he was looking for out of this?

[Demiurge]

That would imply his core audience could read and above a 3rd grade level. So....I'm not sure.

[shack]

#43. re-read (or just read). ;)
Being just a little condescending aren't we?

Then re-read #44.;)

I actually read what has been written before I post...and my reading comprehension skills are quite good.

While both post #43 and #44 had some recognition that the environmental pressures can be overcome...both end with a resounding "BUT".

All you are doing is what society as a whole is doing...giving them the "out" to maintain the status quo. When society quits accepting the excuses and demands that people take advantage of the opportunities available to them (and regardless of what anyone says...there are the resources available to ANYONE willing to use them) then and only then will the cycle be broken.

[RuSsMaN]

.............

[mrbigbluelight]

One of the greatest books ever written.. that and Origin of the Species.


I don't know; promoting hard work, self-reliance, and other such aspects ....
....is that a good thing ? :rolleyes:

[jabrax]

This dialogue is wonderful...The twist, turns, implications.

Hearingimpaired - My fellow philly boy, who said anything about this being black and white? And where the hell did slavery come from? (sarcasm yes - truely curious tho) LOL. Also interesting is how some immediately latched onto that comment as if that has to do with anything we are talking about. The whole whisper a secret syndrome in full affect :)

I admitted my post was all over the place, but let me tie my comments for you. I mentioned our grandparents and parents (not slaves) who are possibly still with us......have and have-nots...struggling parents away from home trying to make ends meet..those trying to get it.....ITS ABOUT THE ECONOMICS, NOT BLACK OR WHITE. Now tie in your environment, things you see and are exposed to and the desire to get yours. That is where the tough decisions are made. Some make some reeeeeally bad ones, but I understand how. Kinda like the collegue athlete who takes money while still in school. When you poor ass grows up eating mayonaisse sandwiches for dinner, someone dropping stuff in you lap is really tempting :)

Troy D - I am about as 0 tolerant/hardline as you can get. Noone ever said the comments were proper. Pretty f'd up if you ask me, but that doesn't mean I close my eyes to what could possibly cause someone to feel that way. Education is key to understanding, and I'm not talking about just text books.

All the rah-rah about working hard, goodthings will happen for you is excellent moral standing to live by (worked for me), but if you think just because someone works hard, good things will happen to them, you are friggen trippen. There is only so much room to get out at one time. If every highschool senior scores 1500, sorry sombody aint gettin in. So who gets in and who doesn't?

Our society is based on economics and standing. It has to have rich and poor. Some are born into situations with inherent advantages and piss them away, while others have to scrape and "hustle". Not an excuse, its a fact of life. So when some stupid ass makes a comment like he did about police, I can disagree with it, but I attempt to understand it. To close our eyes to the reality of it all, makes us no better.

In the end the asswhole may be the biggest punk walking, but the media puts it out there. So who really gets paid? (Think Hard)

Ya think this rapper got the publicity he was looking for out of this?

Hmmmmmm LOL

Finally - probably no more comments from me

Still noone has answered my initial question - What the hell does his comments have to do with HipHop? :)

and how is that association made...a whole new topic for another thread lol

Bye, and thanks for the stimulating dialogue.

[jabrax]

HearingImpaired, where ya from. We are still in fairly good proximity, we need to do a couple of cold ones sometime and shoot the shit about it :)

[Demiurge]

Still noone has answered my initial question - What the hell does his comments have to do with HipHop?

and how is that association made...a whole new topic for another thread lol

Why? Well, he's a hip-hop artist.

The most saturated aspect of the hip-hop world is the gang culture. That may not be your choice, but it is what it is. Young black kids aren't listening to Chet Atkins when their homeboys aren't around. If a guy like this is preaching this crap to an impressionable young kid with parents who don't care or aren't involved -- then it has everything to do with hip-hop.

There are some artists out there who are responsible, but they're few and far between and not vocal enough.

Bottom line is that this is a problem the black community needs to solve for itself. If every time a Bill Cosby speaks out the community drowns him out -- well, then not a damn thing is going to change.

I can't wholly blame a kid for getting involved with a gang. It's feast or famine and the thugs prey on the week. Better to be giving than receiving when it comes to that. It starts with the parents, and if they're not around what is a kid supposed to do?

Stop being afraid of the PD. It's not the 1960s. I see blacks arresting blacks, nothing racial about that.

[Sherardp]

Dipset is definitely in the building........................

[hearingimpared]

This dialogue is wonderful...The twist, turns, implications.

Hearingimpaired - My fellow philly boy, who said anything about this being black and white? And where the hell did slavery come from? (sarcasm yes - truely curious tho) LOL. Also interesting is how some immediately latched onto that comment as if that has to do with anything we are talking about.

You brought up the black and white Bro. I brought up the slavery thing only because taken in context what I was saying was that Italian, Irish, German white people went through the same problem of having to overcome to get up and out but they didn't have the "slavery" part in their past at least not here in America. See below.

Lets face it....for the 40 year old generation....Our black and white grandparents probably don't like (i said probably) each other. The children of these grandparents (especially black) were taking ass whoopings for opportunity to vote (example.)

The whole whisper a secret syndrome in full affect
:)
I don't know what the above statement means?/:confused:

I admitted my post was all over the place, but let me tie my comments for you. I mentioned our grandparents and parents (not slaves) who are possibly still with us......have and have-nots...struggling parents away from home trying to make ends meet..those trying to get it.....ITS ABOUT THE ECONOMICS, NOT BLACK OR WHITE. Now tie in your environment, things you see and are exposed to and the desire to get yours. That is where the tough decisions are made. Some make some reeeeeally bad ones, but I understand how. Kinda like the collegue athlete who takes money while still in school. When you poor ass grows up eating mayonaisse sandwiches for dinner, someone dropping stuff in you lap is really tempting :)

Troy D - I am about as 0 tolerant/hardline as you can get. Noone ever said the comments were proper. Pretty f'd up if you ask me, but that doesn't mean I close my eyes to what could possibly cause someone to feel that way. Education is key to understanding, and I'm not talking about just text books.

All the rah-rah about working hard, goodthings will happen for you is excellent moral standing to live by (worked for me), but if you think just because someone works hard, good things will happen to them, you are friggen trippen. There is only so much room to get out at one time. If every highschool senior scores 1500, sorry sombody aint gettin in. So who gets in and who doesn't?

Our society is based on economics and standing. It has to have rich and poor. Some are born into situations with inherent advantages and piss them away, while others have to scrape and "hustle". Not an excuse, its a fact of life. So when some stupid ass makes a comment like he did about police, I can disagree with it, but I attempt to understand it. To close our eyes to the reality of it all, makes us no better.

In the end the asswhole may be the biggest punk walking, but the media puts it out there. So who really gets paid? (Think Hard)



Hmmmmmm LOL

Finally - probably no more comments from me


and how is that association made...a whole new topic for another thread lol

Bye, and thanks for the stimulating dialogue.

Still noone has answered my initial question - What the hell does his comments have to do with HipHop? :)

That's kind of like saying what does John Lennon's quotes on Jesus Christ have to do with the Beatles. Average white American Joe thinks HipHop is a black thing. No? Isn't it? When the average Joe looks at Allen Iverson, he thinks hiphop gangster and then basketball player, no? You see where I am going Bro?

[hearingimpared]

You were nabbed Bro, I got the email before you edited:

HearingImpaired, where ya from. We are still in fairly good proximity, we need to do a couple of cold ones sometime and shoot the shit about it :).

Well I just recently moved from Philly (thank God) to Newark Delaware. I don't drink but I would love to get together and shoot some audio shit. We just had a get together at Phil's in Magnolia, NJ this past Saturday. Check out this thread. http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52002

BTW I am hearingimpared. . . not to be mixed up with what seems to be a defunct member HearingImpaired.:)

[TroyD]

Jabrax,

Flush out your headgear. I'm not under any sort of Polyanna type illusions. I AM saying that there is no excuse to be a thug. I don't care what your environment/background is. There is no justification for being a criminal.

BDT

[Jstas]

That's kind of like saying what does John Lennon's quotes on Jesus Christ have to do with the Beatles. Average white American Joe thinks HipHop is a black thing. No? Isn't it? When the average Joe looks at Allen Iverson, he thinks hiphop gangster and then basketball player, no? You see where I am going Bro?

Just some insight here. Hip-hop is a type of music. Music belongs to the ages. There is no age, color, race or creed to music. It just is. Music is a universal communicator. A group of society cannot really "own" music but origins can be traced back to different cultures where environement has shaped that music over time. As the music transcends borders, it picks up influences of other music and they blend together to form new music.

Hip-hop is not black. It is music. However, the "ownership" of hip-hop is propagated and fueled by racially charged stereotypes. One of the biggest ones I have heard my entire life is that "white boys ain't got no rythm". Want to see what I'm talking about? Look at a black comedian like Eddie Griffin when he discuss and mocks a stereotype of white guys being country club jerks. Or better yet, Carlton Banks from The Fresh Prince, How many times on that show was he referred to as the "whitest black dude"? I won't go into what I believe is the hypocrisy behind modern television in regards to race on all sides.

Then again, it goes the otherway too. While I think Jeff Foxworthy has a good act and he has done well while promoting clean comedy, he does contribute to the stereotype that country music and being a redneck are a white guy thing. Not by his own fault but by the stupidity of the media that will skew the perception of his target audience as being "in-bred, white, country hicks". Foxworthy however says "We all have a little redneck in us!" and doesn't limit it to "white folk".

The reason people think hip-hop is a black thing is not only because of racial stereotypes and inaccurate perceptions but also the environment that has shaped that music.

As a polar opposite, look at grunge rock. That had angst-ridden, teenage suburbanite written all over. Since the majority of those suburbanites were white kids, grunge rock addressed alot of the culture issues in those environments. Even more so, it's musical base is heaviliy influenced by another predominatly white, cultural phenomenon...hippies.

[jabrax]

You were nabbed Bro, I got the email before you edited:



Well I just recently moved from Philly (thank God) to Newark Delaware. I don't drink but I would love to get together and shoot some audio shit. We just had a get together at Phil's in Magnolia, NJ this past Saturday. Check out this thread. http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52002

BTW I am hearingimpared. . . not to be mixed up with what seems to be a defunct member HearingImpaired.:)

Cool, sounds like plan. Man, its turning into friggen zoo over there.

You brought up the black and white Bro. I brought up the slavery thing only because taken in context what I was saying was that Italian, Irish, German white people went through the same problem of having to overcome to get up and out but they didn't have the "slavery" part in their past at least not here in America. See below.


I don't know what the above statement means?/:confused:

?

Another hole that needs explanation to the economic thing - The elder generation still exist and many of them are decision makers who have heavy influence on the generations after them (so on and so on) of today and do have an influence on who does what. The corrolation (sp)to slavery or what any other nationality went through really isnt there for the context that I speaking. Hope its a little clearer.

Why? Well, he's a hip-hop artist.

The most saturated aspect of the hip-hop world is the gang culture. That may not be your choice, but it is what it is. Young black kids aren't listening to Chet Atkins when their homeboys aren't around. If a guy like this is preaching this crap to an impressionable young kid with parents who don't care or aren't involved -- then it has everything to do with hip-hop.

There are some artists out there who are responsible, but they're few and far between and not vocal enough.

Bottom line is that this is a problem the black community needs to solve for itself. If every time a Bill Cosby speaks out the community drowns him out -- well, then not a damn thing is going to change.

I can't wholly blame a kid for getting involved with a gang. It's feast or famine and the thugs prey on the week. Better to be giving than receiving when it comes to that. It starts with the parents, and if they're not around what is a kid supposed to do?

Stop being afraid of the PD. It's not the 1960s. I see blacks arresting blacks, nothing racial about that.

Demi...Thank you so much for your honest opinion. But, in my opinion it displays what I view is truely a problem (not downing yours or anyone elses opinions, they are just somewhat different than mine)

I am taking your response as written, my interpretation may be wrong. Because he is a hiphop artist, he represents the hiphop community. No way. Does a racist black or white, speak for his whole race (hypothetical, but some idiot will probably say yeah). Example, do black people all agree with how Imus was handled. Not to shock, but I would say no. Why, ask them lol. But they have the mic shoved in their faces soooooo... you get where I'm going.

Sorry, but hiphop is much/much larger than gansta rap. Its the shit put out there for the money that people pounce on without understanding. Personally, I don't like hiphop music (not my generation), but there are many, many, many that if you are not into hiphop, you don't know. Nephew has hipped me to some pretty creative underground stuff. Not my cup of tea, but very creative.

Don't villify all of the good kids because the decision makers push that crap in the front because they think that is what people want to here and buy (sorta like seeing someones ass in a movie, what the hell for, because some jackasses at the top believe that is what people want to see). What we hear on the airwaves is a very small sample. Sorry, but I feel your comments expose how much influence certain avenues have on ourlives to shape our predjudices. See my very first post in the thread.

Hmmmm, hiphop is a black thing? Top artist maybe...Sorry, I beg to differ, but that was brought up in another thread...

Yes, I love Bill, he is speaking to the black community...Not HipHop :)

I think I really am done this time.

Peace to you all

[jabrax]

Jabrax,

Flush out your headgear. I'm not under any sort of Polyanna type illusions. I AM saying that there is no excuse to be a thug. I don't care what your environment/background is. There is no justification for being a criminal.

BDT

I know bro - believe it not....many of our views our the same. Just expressed differently

Jeff

[hearingimpared]

Just some insight here. Hip-hop is a type of music. Music belongs to the ages. There is no age, color, race or creed to music. It just is. Music is a universal communicator. A group of society cannot really "own" music but origins can be traced back to different cultures where environement has shaped that music over time. As the music transcends borders, it picks up influences of other music and they blend together to form new music.

Hip-hop is not black. It is music. However, the "ownership" of hip-hop is propagated and fueled by racially charged stereotypes. One of the biggest ones I have heard my entire life is that "white boys ain't got no rythm". Want to see what I'm talking about? Look at a black comedian like Eddie Griffin when he discuss and mocks a stereotype of white guys being country club jerks. Or better yet, Carlton Banks from The Fresh Prince, How many times on that show was he referred to as the "whitest black dude"? I won't go into what I believe is the hypocrisy behind modern television in regards to race on all sides.

Then again, it goes the otherway too. While I think Jeff Foxworthy has a good act and he has done well while promoting clean comedy, he does contribute to the stereotype that country music and being a redneck are a white guy thing. Not by his own fault but by the stupidity of the media that will skew the perception of his target audience as being "in-bred, white, country hicks". Foxworthy however says "We all have a little redneck in us!" and doesn't limit it to "white folk".

The reason people think hip-hop is a black thing is not only because of racial stereotypes and inaccurate perceptions but also the environment that has shaped that music.

As a polar opposite, look at grunge rock. That had angst-ridden, teenage suburbanite written all over. Since the majority of those suburbanites were white kids, grunge rock addressed alot of the culture issues in those environments. Even more so, it's musical base is heaviliy influenced by another predominatly white, cultural phenomenon...hippies.


John while I agree with you much of the time and I do agree with you here for the most part, I must say one thing. Stereotypes are real!!! No matter how people twist and turn it, they are real.

I have no problem saying that Italian guys have black hair, heavy beards, talk with their hands and tend to be momma's boys, say hey yo and a whole lot of other stuff. My point is I like pasta as do most Italians but I know Italians who don't eat pasta but for the most part Italians eat pasta. Is that a stereotype.

I remember in school a liberal one at that, they were trying to teach us that stereotyping was done out of ignorance. I say bullshit!. It is not out of ignorance. Every race, every nationality has their own particular or even peculiar, to some, ways and customs and traits this is not stereotyping this is observing and stating facts.

If someone uses a stereotype to put someone down then I would consider that person to be an ignorant person.

PS: most white boys don't have rhythm!!!

[aaharvel]

hate to say it but hearing hit it on the head: in most cases Stereotyping is real. It has to come from somewhere, and usually it isn't ignorance, but set patterns of behavior within a certain social circle. that's just reality.

[DarqueKnight]

Young black kids aren't listening to Chet Atkins when their homeboys aren't around.

Some young black kids listen to Chet Atkins and other country music artists. There are other young black kids who prefer jazz, classical, rock, etc. I am not so sure that most young black kids even have "homeboys" and that they embrace ghetto/thug/gangsta rap culture. If rappers had to depend on black consumers for their livelyhood, they would starve. Two-thirds of the domestic consumers for rap music, particularly gangsta rap music, are white teenagers. Of course, when you consider the international market for rap music (Europe and Asia), the number of black consumers dwindles to next to nothing.

Bottom line is that this is a problem the black community needs to solve for itself.

Where is this so-called "black community" that I keep reading about and hearing about in the media? I don't think it exists...any more than a "white community", "Chinese community", "rich peoples community", or any other stereotypical "community" exists. This is merely a label that is used to paint a large, diverse group with a stereotypical, all-encompasing brush stroke. While somewhat inconvenient, it is really not that difficult to grasp the concept that black people are just as diverse in their interests and lifestyles as any other group in this country.

Are rich white people, as a group, interested in solving the social problems in poor white communities? Do middle class and upper middle class white people, as a group, share a "kinship" and feel a sense of responsibility to help alleviate the economic and social suffering of their less fortunate white bretheren? If the son of a white fortune 500 CEO brings home a white lady of good character and sound mind, but who comes from an economically, educationally, and socially disadvantaged background, would said CEO likely be pleased? Why shouldn't he be pleased? After all, they are all members of the "white community" aren't they? Can't they "take in" her and her family the way that Milburn Drysdale "took in" Jed Clampett, Granny, Ellie Mae, and Jethro?

Do you really think that a Wall Street investment banker, who happens to be black, gives a rat's ass about what some ignorant, functionally illiterate rapper, athlete, or entertainer says? Do you really think that a high school math teacher, who happens to be black, identifies with the likes of Snoop Dogg, Cam'ron, or Mike Tyson? Do you really think that Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton (who the media whores love to run to in order to gauge what the so-called "black community" thinks about a particular issue) represent the values and aspirations of middle and upper middle class black Americans?

If every time a Bill Cosby speaks out the community drowns him out -- well, then not a damn thing is going to change.

Not a damn thing is going to change for ANY "community" whose constituents do not embrace the concepts of education, hard work, and sacrifice as a means of bettering their condition and station in life. If there has ever been an instance where Bill Cosby has been drowned out in a particular "community", I would bet my entire investment portfolio that he was speaking to a "community" who had different values from his and who really didn't want to hear what he had to say. I would not expect Bill Cosby to get the same welcome from a predominately black gang-infested south central Los Angeles "community" as he would get from a predominately black middle class "community" in Atlanta. Bill, like most people, always receives a lot of love as long as he stays on his side of the tracks.

[Maurice]

.............


I cant believe you did that. lmao!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Where's the pic????

[Bill Ayotte]

Russ......That is the greatest picture ever....

[cfrizz]

Great post DK!

[Demiurge]

Some young black kids listen to Chet Atkins and other country music artists. There are other young black kids who prefer jazz, classical, rock, etc. I am not so sure that most young black kids even have "homeboys" and that they embrace ghetto/thug/gangsta rap culture. If rappers had to depend on black consumers for their livelyhood, they would starve. Two-thirds of the domestic consumers for rap music, particularly gangsta rap music, are white teenagers. Of course, when you consider the international market for rap music (Europe and Asia), the number of black consumers dwindles to next to nothing.

There's a some in any group. Unfortunately the majority tends to rule the roost. The minority speaking out and not being afraid to do so would go a long way. I also realize many have given up, and to an extent I can't blame them for doing so.

Maybe my perspective is from being a white guy going to an inner city school for a while. I got along with most everyone there for the most part, but I saw the weak get preyed upon with dire consequences. The violence there was insane compared to the suburban schools I went to, where other minorities also attended. They excelled in academics and made something of themselves. A lot of that was having parents who gave a crap about them and their own drive to get away from that inner city culture.

I believe this part of the discussion got started with respect to the inner city, where the majority of crime takes place in this country. Would you deny that? Would you deny that blacks are the main perpetrators of these crimes -- some petty, some as serious as murder?

It is what it is, and whites and other blacks don't want to say it because they're afraid of being called a racist or an Uncle Tom.

So yes, you're right that it's not blacks that are solely purchasing this asshats music. Where you're off is the suggestion that the influence isn't the deepest on the inner city communities, which are made up of mostly African Americans.


Where is this so-called "black community" that I keep reading about and hearing about in the media? I don't think it exists...any more than a "white community", "Chinese community", "rich peoples community", or any other stereotypical "community" exists. This is merely a label that is used to paint a large, diverse group with a stereotypical, all-encompasing brush stroke. While somewhat inconvenient, it is really not that difficult to grasp the concept that black people are just as diverse in their interests and lifestyles as any other group in this country.

I couldn't tell you where it is. I've watched grass roots efforts here in Milwaukee (on of the most violent cities in America, sadly) fall flat on their face. I've watched a fellow political activist, Vienna Jordan, lose an election to a racist, feminizing, violent thug.

Part of her biggest obstacle was trying to get the vote of nearly the entire district that adapted the proverbial Oath of Silence in regards to police matters. This was an African American community, like it or not.

The community is there, and it's broken. The only time the majority of African Americans are going to assimilate into the rest of society like minority of their ethnic brothers and sisters is when they get off their asses and start caring for one another and holding some standards for themselves. The problem is that they have too many excuses to stay where they are. That topic about government assistance is another subject all together so I won't even go there.

As mentioned before, stereotypes exist becuase they have an aura of truth to them. Knowing many successful black men from the cigar shop they have all said that they're the most angry with these thugs. They obviously don't dwell on it, but an anger exists. I've heard it with my own to ears. They don't let these thugs speak for them, but the realize that they're going to get lumped into the stereotype whether they like it or not.


Are rich white people, as a group, interested in solving the social problems in poor white communities? Do middle class and upper middle class white people, as a group, share a "kinship" and feel a sense of responsibility to help alleviate the economic and social suffering of their less fortunate white bretheren? If the son of a white fortune 500 CEO brings home a white lady of good character and sound mind, but who comes from an economically, educationally, and socially disadvantaged background, would said CEO likely be pleased? Why shouldn't he be pleased? After all, they are all members of the "white community" aren't they? Can't they "take in" her and her family the way that Milburn Drysdale "took in" Jed Clampett, Granny, Ellie Mae, and Jethro?

Most poor whites aren't killing one another. Most are not robbing people, dealing drugs, stealing cars, and fathering illegitimate children en masse. There are excepetions to everything, just like within the inner city culture, but the deeds of the majority stand out.


Do you really think that a Wall Street investment banker, who happens to be black, gives a rat's ass about what some ignorant, functionally illiterate rapper, athlete, or entertainer says? Do you really think that a high school math teacher, who happens to be black, identifies with the likes of Snoop Dogg, Cam'ron, or Mike Tyson? Do you really think that Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton (who the media whores love to run to in order to gauge what the so-called "black community" thinks about a particular issue) represent the values and aspirations of middle and upper middle class black Americans?

Well, yes, I do. You may be different, but I only have three black friends and common aquaintances. One runs his own insurance business, the other is a lawyer, and the last is a doctor. All three have some deep resentment about these types of debris. They don't let them water down their accomplishments, but the do recognize it's not good for society as a whole.

Also, Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton don't give a good God damn about the black community. They make money by this kind of crap festering.

My solution is to embrace standards accross the board. Blacks are by and large stuck in neutral, which is why it's a black problem. Is it your problem as a black man? No, but I would hope you'd offer a helping hand to a kid that expressed the desire to straighten himself out.

There are no standards in the inner city and there are no standards becuase there are very few parents who actually care. They're children themselves in many ways and are only contributing to the cycle.


If there has ever been an instance where Bill Cosby has been drowned out in a particular "community", I would bet my entire investment portfolio that he was speaking to a "community" who had different values from his and who really didn't want to hear what he had to say. I would not expect Bill Cosby to get the same welcome from a predominately black gang-infested south central Los Angeles "community" as he would get from a predominately black middle class "community" in Atlanta. Bill, like most people, always receives a lot of love as long as he stays on his side of the tracks.

Bill Cosby got constantly thrown under a bus. If he was speaking to a "community" with different values than his own then the problem is with that "community". The entire point I was trying to make. It's not whites, it's not Chinese, it's not Mexicans, it's not Japanese, it's blacks.

There are exceptions, but Cam'Ron's stupid ass comments will be embraced by many young black impressionable young males who have absent fathers and cracked out or just plain uncaring mothers.

[read-alot]

Local Greensboro police run down a drive by shooter, the passenger gets out and runs with his bullet proof vest on, the driver resists arrest and bites the police officer. The TV crew shows up and interviews a bystander who says that the police used excessive force to cuff the guy. WTF is going to happen when the officers finally say the hell with risking my life for these asswipes and then the news they do real good making it look like a racial thing.

[exalted512]

First off, I cant remember when such a controversial topic as this has come up on this forum and after 3 pages, its still being discussed maturely...Anyone else notice this?


Hip-hop is not black.
I see where youre coming from, but I disagree.
Taken from dictionary.com
"A popular urban youth culture, closely associated with rap music and with the style and fashions of African-American inner-city residents."

I associate music with artists. The only white hip hop group i can think of is eminem. I'm sure theres more, but hes the only one I can think of off the top of my head. I'm not a big country fan, but again, the only artist I can think of that is black is Neil McCoy. Genres like pop are mixed and you get a lot of people of many different 'colors' But genres like country and hip hop are primarily white and black respectively.

I dont hate all hip hop, theres actually a good amount I'll listen to, primarily the 90s era. But heres an example of the stuff I absolutely cant stand, this is one of the most popular hip hop songs out now.


This is why Im hot
This is why Im hot
This is why (this is why)
This is why Im hot
[x2]
I'm hot cuz im fly,
You ain't cuz you not,
This is why (this is why)
This is why Im hot
I'm hot cuz im fly,
You hate cuz you not (M.I.M.S.!)
This is why (this is why)
This is why I'm hot.

[Verse 1:]
This is why I'm hot, I don't gotta rap
I could sell a mil. sayin' nothing on the track
I represent New York, I got it on my back,
Niggas say that we lost it, so imma bring it back.
I love the Dirty Dirty, cuz niggas show me love
The ladies start to bounce as soon as I hit the club.
But in the Midwest, they love to take it slow,
So when I hit that shit, I watch em (get it on the flo')
And if you need it hyphy, I'll take it to the Bay,
'Frisco to Sac-Town, they do it everyday.
Compton to Hollywood, soon as I hit LA,
I'm in the low-low, I do it the Cali way.
And when I hit the Chi', people tell me that I'm fly.
They like the way I dress, they like my attire.
They love how I move crowds from side-to-side,
They ask me how I do it, and simply I reply:

[Chorus:]
This is why Im hot
This is why Im hot
This is why (this is why)
This is why Im hot
[x2]
I'm hot cuz im fly,
You ain't cuz you not,
This is why (this is why)
This is why Im hot
I'm hot cuz im fly,
You hate cuz you not (M.I.M.S.!)
This is why (this is why)
This is why I'm hot.

[Verse 2:]
This is why I'm hot, catch me on the block,
Every other day, another bitch, another drop,
16 bars, 24 a pop,
44 a song, nigga gimme what chu got.
I'm into drivin cars, fresh up off the lot ,
Im into shuttin stores down, just so I could shop.
If you need a bird, I could get it chopped,
Tell me what chu need, you know I get em by the flock.
I call my homie Black, meet me on the Avvve.
I hit Wash. Heights with the money in the bag.
We into big spendin', you see my pimpin' never drag,
Find me with different women that you niggas never had.
For those who say they know me, know I'm focused on my green
Playa you come between, you better focus on the beam.
I keep it so mean, the way you seen me lean,
And when I say Im hot, my nigga this is what I mean

[chorus:]
This is why Im hot
This is why Im hot
This is why (this is why)
This is why Im hot
[x2]
I'm hot cuz im fly,
You ain't cuz you not,
This is why (this is why)
This is why Im hot
I'm hot cuz im fly,
You hate cuz you not (M.I.M.S.!)
This is why (this is why)
This is why I'm hot.

[verse 3:]
This is why im hot, shorty see the drop
Asked me what I paid, and I say yeah, I paid a guap.
And then I hit the switch, that take away the top,
So chicks around the way, they call me Creame of the Crop.
They hop in the car, I tell em “All aboard”
We hit the studio, they say they like how I record.
I gave em Black Train and I Did You Wrong,
So everytime I see them, they tell me that's their song.
They say I'm the bomb,
They love the way the charm,
Hangin from the neck, and compliments the arm,
Which compliments the ear, then comes the gear,
So when I hit the room, the shorties stop 'n stare.
Niggas start to hate, rearrange they face,
But little do they know, I keep them thangs by waist
Son I reply, nobody got to die,
Similar to Lil' Weez cuz I got the fire.

[Chorus:]
This is why Im hot
This is why Im hot
This is why (this is why)
This is why Im hot
[x2]
I'm hot cuz im fly,
You ain't cuz you not,
This is why (this is why)
This is why Im hot
I'm hot cuz im fly,
You hate cuz you not (MIMS!)
This is why (this is why)
This is why I'm hot.

[ninerbj]

Music does not influence anyone. Hip Hop and the artist that make it do not influence anyone!
Now excuse me while I put on some Ted Nugent and naw on this raw liver.

[jabrax]

Demiurge - WOW!!! - Much respect for your opinions (even tho i disagree, i do respect)

I can't fully respond to the post right now, at work and will take my slow ass too long type, edit, retype lol.

I will say this now and expand on later - maybe.

Your peception of minority and majority are backwards. I do understand how your perceptions could be drawn based on the background you present. (THAT perception I believe is what the TRUE black majority has a problem with). Somehow the bad pockets in inner cities is what people associate with all black people... natural I guess being that is what makes headlines or whatever...black middle class usually not in the news.)

Stereotypes = ultra truthes (in there lies a huge problem in my opinion) especially if you don't consider the source. Remember stereotypes tend to have some hints of "truths to them,", but decisions based on stereotypes built perceptions is what pushes predujuce across the racist line. Honestly guys/gals, you see me (black man) drive through your neighborhood, how many of you call the cops? LOL - gotta keep it relaxed - Up until this point never said I was black, but I'm sure most assumed :)

Bill Cosby - Funny how different races (most probably) view his comments. White hears one thing (all black people, blacks hear another (problem areas in certain black communities).....(fascinating)

Love this thread, really wish I could meet you guys to break bread and talk shit

[hearingimpared]

Your peception of minority and majority are backwards.

I can't wait to hear how you explain this one cause I think Demi is right on the mark.

Stereotypes = ultra truthes (in there lies a huge problem in my opinion) especially if you don't consider the source. Remember stereotypes tend to have some hints of "truths to them,", but decisions based on stereotypes built perceptions is what pushes predujuce across the racist line.

Stereotypes don't have "some hint of 'truths to them'" they are very, very true. . . many have just been exagerated past the truth so I don't think it is accurate to say "some hints of truth."

Bill Cosby - Funny how different races (most probably) view his comments. White hears one thing (all black people, blacks hear another (problem areas in certain black communities).....(fascinating

Love this thread, really wish I could meet you guys to break bread and talk shit

It doesn't just come to Bill Cosby and whites hearing one message and blacks hearing another. When a Liberal politician speaks, the liberals hear one thing the conservatives hear another. That is the way humanity is. . . preconceived notions lead to hearing messages differently.

Yea Bro I thought you were a black dude and was glad of it so I could hear an opinion other than a white guy's on this topic.

Yes Bro you will break bread with the local Polkies when we have our next get together to BS about the universal language, MUSIC!!! To listen to the universal language on some good gear, to argue about if analog is better than digital, to compare the gear that plays the universal language, MUSIC!!!:)

[jdhdiggs]

Hehe, currently I live nest door to about the two extremes of the black community. Across the street the guy owns his own business, has a nice house, 2 cool little kids, as friendly as can be.

My neighbor on the other side lives in his house 20 days a year so he can collect retirement from PA and MA states as he claims residences in both, his yard is crap, he has a freaking dirt pile that's been sitting there for 18 months that will be permanently picked up "next week". Weeds have taken over the yard, etc...

These two FIGHT every time the one guy comes around and it's hilarious to watch. "You've become whitey, don't opress me!" (Yes, and actual quote from their more recent argument). I can't even talk to the slacker guy because, well, I don't think he speaks English (or at least a version I understand) and all I get is him lecturing me on something... (how the government is screwing him, how I'm screwing him, how nobody gets his issues, etc...) rather than acting like a neighbor.

Anyways, neither here nor there, but I think the comparison is very interesting.

[Gaara]

I am so confused, the link in the first post is of some guy cutting off his wanker in front of a bunch of people.

"And then there’s the corrosive effect of hip-hop music. I enjoy a lot of it, but after hearing three tracks I have an urge to slap a ho. That can’t be healthy, especially for the ho."

[hearingimpared]

Hehe, currently I live nest door to about the two extremes of the black community. Across the street the guy owns his own business, has a nice house, 2 cool little kids, as friendly as can be.

My neighbor on the other side lives in his house 20 days a year so he can collect retirement from PA and MA states as he claims residences in both, his yard is crap, he has a freaking dirt pile that's been sitting there for 18 months that will be permanently picked up "next week". Weeds have taken over the yard, etc...

These two FIGHT every time the one guy comes around and it's hilarious to watch. "You've become whitey, don't opress me!" (Yes, and actual quote from their more recent argument). I can't even talk to the slacker guy because, well, I don't think he speaks English (or at least a version I understand) and all I get is him lecturing me on something... (how the government is screwing him, how I'm screwing him, how nobody gets his issues, etc...) rather than acting like a neighbor.

Anyways, neither here nor there, but I think the comparison is very interesting.

I have the same problem here except one is a white hillbilly the other is an older gentleman (white) who gives a shite about his the appearance of his property.

[hearingimpared]

I am so confused, the link in the first post is of some guy cutting off his wanker in front of a bunch of people.

"And then there’s the corrosive effect of hip-hop music. I enjoy a lot of it, but after hearing three tracks I have an urge to slap a ho. That can’t be healthy, especially for the ho."

The Drudge report updates their links almost daily, the guy cutting off his canolli seems to be the latest in what Matt Drudge finds interesting.