My 1st Venture into Tubes

[Ern Dog]

I have to admit that I was expecting a more dramatic improvement going from my HK as a preamp to an entry level tube preamp. There is an improvement but it is subtle. Most notabley, the mids feel smoother and there is more bass extension (had to readjust my sub). There is a touch more warmth all over the spectrum. The highs sound a tad harsh at moderate volume levels, this was also true with my HK. I was hoping that this would mellow out, but it hasn't after 100 hrs of use. I also notice greater separation/clarity of different instruments. Each instument holds its own space more than before. Overall, I'm pleased with the upgrade, again, all these differences were subtle.

The Soundstage Vacuum II Tube preamp came stock with these tubes: JAN 6922 x 2 Philips NOS/NIB (6/86)

In a few weeks I think I'll be ready to role some different ones. Any suggestions for tubes that would help smooth out the highs more?

Thanks, Ern Dog

[Early B.]

The first thing you'll want to consider when adding a new "upgrade" is to look at the weak links in your system. For instance, if you are using a budget DVD player as your source, you may be stiffling the preamp's capabilities.

[RuSsMaN]

Agreed, the Phillips JAN are great tubes, look for improvement elsewhere.

[Ern Dog]

Dang, I was hoping you wouldn't say that, although I know its true. The $180 Onkyo universal DVD/CD player is a black hole stiffling all the goodness that the tubes have to offer.

My birthday is this month, so I'm puttin' a new cdp on my list. A carousel/changer is a must for me. It's hard enough having a preamp w/out a remote much less a single cdp.

[candyliquor35m]

My sunfire sounded nominal until I put some old stock gold pin Siemens E188CC's in it aka 7308/6922's. They don't come up everyday on ebay but they do come up. A good price is $50 each but a more average is $75 each.

I've dealt with rockside02 before. I bought his last pair for $100 but this pair he wants $150. I can't say for sure you'll like them but I was having the same problem as you and was thinking about selling the sunfire until I tried these.

http://cgi.ebay.com/NOS-SIEMENS-E188CC-7308-MATCHED-PAIR_W0QQitemZ280111401762QQihZ018QQcategoryZ64629 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[Early B.]

My birthday is this month, so I'm puttin' a new cdp on my list. A carousel/changer is a must for me. It's hard enough having a preamp w/out a remote much less a single cdp.

Forget about a carousel/changer. Do you want high fidelity or not?

[tonyb]

Sick 'em Early......This has potential...Have to go get
the popcorn ready.:p :)

[pearsall001]

Forget about a carousel/changer. Do you want high fidelity or not?

Early's right, using a carousel/changer as your source is not going to get you where you want to go. With that being said, I also have an Onkyo CD carousel/changer (not a DVD/CD combo player) that I use strictly as a transport in line with my CJ tube preamp & AVA Ultra DAC. The result is superb. I wouldn't have it any other way. It is so nice to be able to load up with 6 CD's & have complete control w/ the remote. Maybe I'm showing my age:D but I love it!!! Think about an outboard DAC if you want to keep your carousel/changer.

[riglehart]

I bought the Soundstage One (tube pre + 25w SS) a couple months ago. My Jolida 202 (all tubes) sounds way more "tuby" than my Soundsage+NAD2200 combo. I base this on using my vintage Fisher 500c as a baseline of what a tube system historically sounds like.

I like the Soundstage. I don't know where else you can get a new tube preamp for $320. I opened it up to replace a fried transistor (never short the speaker posts, there's no overload protection) and the parts on the PCB were your run-of-the-mill quality.

[Ern Dog]

I'm stickin' with a changer. There is only a limited selection of quality ones, so I'll be looking toward these: NAD, Rotel & Marantz.

[Ern Dog]

Early's right, using a carousel/changer as your source is not going to get you where you want to go. With that being said, I also have an Onkyo CD carousel/changer (not a DVD/CD combo player) that I use strictly as a transport in line with my CJ tube preamp & AVA Ultra DAC. The result is superb. I wouldn't have it any other way. It is so nice to be able to load up with 6 CD's & have complete control w/ the remote. Maybe I'm showing my age:D but I love it!!! Think about an outboard DAC if you want to keep your carousel/changer.

This is also another good option. There's nothing like loading up my favorite 6 CD's.

[hearingimpared]

This is also another good option. There's nothing like loading up my favorite 6 CD's.


DAC is definitely the way to go. Just take your time and listen to them. Some are leaps and bounds better than others.

[Schwingding]

The changes you describe sound like more than just subtle things to me. Tubes will bring out weaknesses in your system's source components, as I have discovered. I started to question my Denon 2910 - a very good CDP after a few months with my Onix SP3 and upgraded to a 3910 with great results.

Also, simply for lack of another player, I was running an old Panasonic CDP against my Jolida tube amp and was GREATLY disappointed. Everything sounded, literally, terrible. Put the 2910 in its place and things came back to life.

I would not look to upgrade that tube amp without looking at the source.

Also, I don't really like the external DAC idea. I'd prefer to feed the amp a direct analog signal from the CDP. Just personal pref.

[hearingimpared]

Also, I don't really like the external DAC idea. I'd prefer to feed the amp a direct analog signal from the CDP. Just personal pref.

I'm curious as to why you feel that way.

I feed my DAC with the digital out of my digital front end thus just using the transport, then I connect my DAC via the analog outs with ICs to my preamp's aux port. I think if you buy a cheap CDP that has a good transport and put the bulk of your money in a DAC and that is all the DAC is made for, digital to analog conversion, you would have to get a better sounding result than if you spent the same money on a full blow CDP that costs the same as the DAC, IMHO.

[Early B.]

Also, I don't really like the external DAC idea. I'd prefer to feed the amp a direct analog signal from the CDP. Just personal pref.

Yeah, me, too.

I like to keep it simple -- having "extra" components like tube buffers, DIPs or DACs as part of the signal path allows more oppotunities to screw up the sound, IMO.

Ern Dog, if you insist upon having a CD changer, a DAC is the answer, not another CD changer. If you like what you already have, keep it.

[hearingimpared]

Yeah, me, too.

I like to keep it simple -- having "extra" components like tube buffers, DIPs or DACs as part of the signal path allows more oppotunities to screw up the sound, IMO.

Ern Dog, if you insist upon having a CD changer, a DAC is the answer, not another CD changer. If you like what you already have, keep it.

EB have you heard any of the DACs out now-a-days. . . very startlingly natural, non-digital, sounding. I've heard a couple of tubed CDPs and wasn't impressed as a matter of fact they were down right to bright and edgy. When passed through my DAC bypassing their internal DAC the music took on a more natural, analog sounding texture.:)

[W WALDECKER]

My preference has always been a high quality one box Redbook CD player with its own internal DAC. Seperate Dac's require you to ad more cables and connections.WCW III

[Early B.]

EB have you heard any of the DACs out now-a-days. . . very startlingly natural, non-digital, sounding. I've heard a couple of tubed CDPs and wasn't impressed as a matter of fact they were down right to bright and edgy. When passed through my DAC bypassing their internal DAC the music took on a more natural, analog sounding texture.:)


Oh, I don't doubt what you're saying at all. In fact, I had a DIP and DAC hooked up to my system once, and it sounded fantastic.

For me, it's just a preference thing. As I said, I like to keep it simple.

[stereo_luver]

Welp...you made the move to Tubes. Congrats all around my friend. Now the fun and games begin. Have a good time rolling and enjoying the world of tubes. You'll find many combinations of Tube & SS equipment have various results. IMO all Tube sounds wonderful!!! I like my music clear, defined and as pure as I can find. This is said with consideration of the need for the pounding clarity that SS can deliver. Have fun with Tube rolling and consider a lesser shared secret of Tubers. Play with the bias of your tubes as well as the combo of Tubes. Lower plate voltage at higher volume levels for some tubes sounds better than higher plate volts at lower levels for other tubes.

You'll see what all the fun is my friend.

[Ern Dog]

What's a DIP?

I trust my experience more than anything else, and hearing other people's experience helps. It seems that most people agree that I should focus on upgrading my source or add a DAC before rolling tubes. The only thing I know to do at this point is to get one into my rig and see what it sounds like. I've never heard a DAC.

[hearingimpared]

What's a DIP?


Where I come from, an idiot, i.e. DIP SHIT!!!

[Bill Ayotte]

Where I come from, an idiot, i.e. DIP SHIT!!!

I prefer goof-tard.:p

[Ern Dog]

Oh, I don't doubt what you're saying at all. In fact, I had a DIP and DAC hooked up to my system once, and it sounded fantastic.



I'm talking about this kind of DIP!

[Schwingding]

I'm curious as to why you feel that way.

It boils down to personal preference. I believe that a high quality CDP can provide the DAC equal to a dedicated DAC, with fewer power cords, remote controls, and cables. If I had concrete evidence I would have provided it with my initial response.

[SCompRacer]

If I had concrete evidence I would have provided it with my initial response.

You'll never convince anyone anyway regardless of who says what. Only way is for them to hear it, and most folks that are against it won't buy to try. I believe you though, because I have put some good DAC's against my ModWright modded player and it is still here and the DAC's are not.

[reeltrouble1]

yes, trying to "prove" your point is senseless, state it, absolutely. You have to try things, I tried a tube buffer and it worked for the piece of gear I mated with it, what its mean in the end, squadoosh. Except that I like it.

RT1

[sucks2beme]

There are quality changers out there. Not many. I messed up last month
when a Arcam MCD6 was for sale used for $250.
I was out of town when it came up, and waited till the end of the next day to go for it. Missed it by 15 minutes. :mad:
Normal changers are not that great, and prone to breaking. That's
why there are so many 300 disc changers in pawn shops.
Always "as is"!

[candyliquor35m]

Play with the bias of your tubes as well as the combo of Tubes. Lower plate voltage at higher volume levels for some tubes sounds better than higher plate volts at lower levels for other tubes.

I had great results with lowering the bias on my 100 watt golden tube se100. I had the bias plate replaced because a tube was wearing out prematurely and the repair guy said this amp should be biased with a minimum of .40 instead of .48-.52 like the manual recommended but that I might notice a decrease in volume. Crap it could be my imagination but it seems to have more power now at .40 then it did at .50. I'm not saying this will work for all amps but he said it depends on how much voltage is being fed to the bias plate and in my amp the bias plate was getting a high voltage and based on that reading, he calculated my minimum bias setting.

Might be worth a trip to your repair shop if you're lucky enough to have one and have your bias plate voltage checked.

[AndyGwis]

Sony's ES line has some very decent changers. Get one with SACD capability as well. Anything starting with SCD and ending with ES should do the trick.

[MillerLiteScott]

I had great results with lowering the bias on my 100 watt golden tube se100. I had the bias plate replaced because a tube was wearing out prematurely and the repair guy said this amp should be biased with a minimum of .40 instead of .48-.52 like the manual recommended but that I might notice a decrease in volume. Crap it could be my imagination but it seems to have more power now at .40 then it did at .50. I'm not saying this will work for all amps but he said it depends on how much voltage is being fed to the bias plate and in my amp the bias plate was getting a high voltage and based on that reading, he calculated my minimum bias setting.

Might be worth a trip to your repair shop if you're lucky enough to have one and have your bias plate voltage checked.


I know the higher you bias is based upon the Manufacturers recommendation means doody sound.


What does lowering the bias to a degree do? Does it mean better sound and less tube life? I believe if bias is to low you may blow up your tubes?

[candyliquor35m]

I know the higher you bias is based upon the Manufacturers recommendation means doody sound.


What does lowering the bias to a degree do? Does it mean better sound and less tube life? I believe if bias is to low you may blow up your tubes?

That's why I wouldn't recommend doing it arbitrarily. Take it to someone who knows tube amps like the back of their hand and get their opinion. My amp is sounding better and running cooler. For my amp I think it was right thing to do.

Edit: The manual says to bias my amp with no input or speaker cables connected to it but the repairman said to ALWAYS have speakers connected to it when it is powered up. He also said it is ok to have input cables hooked up to it but no volume of course and he said to bias it after 10 minutes of use/warm up.

[stereo_luver]

I can't say lowering the plate voltage / bias will prematurely end the life of your tubes. I can say this. During a recent call to Jolida concerning the issue of using short plate 12AX7's in my 801 led to talk of tube rolling with this amp. It was recomended that I lower my bias from between .45 - .55 volts to .40 - .45 for KT88's. This would extend the life of the KT88's (Gold Lion to be exact). I have noticed that by lowering the bias voltage on "some" amps results in a cleaner, well defined and more dynamic soundstage. Its like I'm not driving the tubes as much as before when the bias was set at a 1/2 way point between recomended voltage. I've also heard people here say that the "sweet" spot for most amps is reached at a 12 o'clock position for the volume knob. I find mine located somewhere around 1:30 - 2:00. But, my bias is set lower than spec'd.

[hearingimpared]

See, all this stuff you guys are talking about is the reason I stay away from tubes. I love tinkering with my analog rig but all the stuff related to tubes to me is for the birds. I leave my preamp and amps on 24X7 (barring any storms), I clean my records and get them spinning or on a whim place a CD in the tray, sit in the sweet spot and away I go.

[Ern Dog]

There are quality changers out there. Not many. I messed up last month
when a Arcam MCD6 was for sale used for $250.
I was out of town when it came up, and waited till the end of the next day to go for it. Missed it by 15 minutes. :mad:
Normal changers are not that great, and prone to breaking. That's
why there are so many 300 disc changers in pawn shops.
Always "as is"!


I'll keep my eyes peeled for this Arcam. Didn't know they make changers. A quick check on the Bay and 'Gon shows one for $500.

Andy-
I've got a personal hang up with buying Sony gear, so I won't be looking in that direction.

[Ern Dog]

So after this post I purchased a refurb NAD T572 which is an older dvd/cd changer and it ended up being defective, so I ordered another refurb and this one lasted a couple days before it died. I have to admit that before it died it sounded awesome! It sounded more refined and warmer than my old Onkyo. A night and day difference. For the first time in a long time, I felt very pleased and content with the sound of my rig because the harsh brightness was totally GONE! Finally. I always thought that it was the Rti's that made my rig so bright, but found out that my cheap source was the biggest factor.

Instead of ordering a third refurb, I decided to order a New NAD C542, which is a dedicated single cdp. I figured that if a 4 year old refurbished DVD changer sounded that good then this newer model cdp with a Burr-Brown 24-bit, Sigma Delta DAC will be un-holly. It arrives next week.:D

Wanted to say thank you all for your help especially Early B and Russman.