More Ramblings from a Fellow 'Phoole

[Early B.]

Although I’ve only been an audiophoole for a short time, I thought I’d share a few opinions and lessons learned. Hopefully, someone new to audio can gain something from it and the veterans can teach me something, as well. Feel free to disagree. Here goes:

1. Tone is everything. It is what every audiophile strives to hear, whether he/she realizes it or not. Every "upgrade" should improve tonal quality; otherwise, get rid of it and try something else.

2. The secret lies in the source. I realize we’ve had this debate here before, but I look at it from two perspectives – my common sense tells me that if the music starts out at a source ill defined, there’s no amount of high end equipment behind it that can salvage the sound. My limited experience tells me, thus far, that upgrades or modifications to the source yield major improvements if the downstream equipment “stays out of the way” and lets the signal flow (relatively) unimpeded.

3. Cables rule! You gotta experiment with them.

4. CDs suck, but we’re stuck. Most CDs are poorly recorded. The more revealing your system becomes, the more you’ll wanna make Frisbees out of your favorite CDs.

5. Go through all of your CDs. Compile a list of reference music tracks. These aren’t necessarily your favorite tunes, but the music that sounds the best on your system. This list will prove beneficial when showing off your equipment and when you’re in the mood to listen to the best cuts you’ve got. It’s also a good list for examining changes and tweaks to your system.

6. Buy the best gear. Yes, you can afford it. There are tons of “giant killers” in every category. These giant killers are usually “off the beaten path.” The key to finding them is to do plenty of research and to be patient. Another hint is to look at what isn't selling. If you hardly find a used "Widget Audio 3000" for sale, or they are sold within hours of being listed at close to their retail price, it could be a winner.

7. Audiophile friends are essential. You gotta be able to try out new things on someone’s system other than your own. This helps tremendously with the learning curve and allows you to gain more confidence in using your own ears.

8. Here’s one to stir some controversy -- It’s gotta be pretty. Yeah, I said it. Beyond the WAF thing, I like my components to look nice. Hell, I’ve even gone as far as performing major cosmetic surgery on my CDP and painting my pre. It’s a psychological satisfaction thing – if it looks good, it sounds good. It’s kinda like a golf club – it’s gotta look good and feel good to me in order for it to work well.

9. Buy it used, but not abused. Why buy new when you can get the same item, often in MINT condition for half off retail or better? Most audiophiles take care of their gear, so it’s a good investment.

10. Forums like this one are invaluable.

11. Finally, your system is never good enough, but there’s gotta be a point at which you stop flipping gear every 6 weeks (at least for your reference system) and work with what you’ve got. Then tweak the hell out if it and enjoy the music.

Rambling complete...(until the next post).;)

[tonyb]

I think you need a cup of java and a jelly donut this morning.:)

Good points btw.

[fatchowmein]

#8 is not controversial. I see it as Pride in Ownership. Plus, you've got rule #1 and #6 to keep you out of trouble.

Nice list.

[george daniel]

#2 cannot be overemphasized,,, followed by numbah 6 :)

[engtaz]

george we think alike. +2

[Mike Reeter]

I agree with all of your points,especially #2...and #8.

I currently have three pieces of Blackface and two pieces of Silverface gear in the rack...and it's driving me nuts:D

I will never be quite happy with the "look" of things,until everything matches.

How petty is that ?

[steveinaz]

Good points Early. I'm a form follows function kinda guy, so physical appearance doesn't matter to in as far as colors/finishes. When it comes to condition, I'm seriously anal. I take very good care of my equipment and can't stand having a knick or scratch on anything.

One I'd like to add is an old one, from audio 101: Concentrate the majority of your money on your speakers. Sure, you want a good source--no doubt--but nothing has such a drastic effect on overall tone, than speakers. Try to "get by" on compromise speakers, and you'll end up chasing your audio tail.

Note: If you find yourself listening to the equipment, and not the music--something is wrong.

[WilliamM2]

All that rambling, and you failed to mention one of the most important things. The ROOM.

Room treatments will yield much greater improvement than any equipment upgrade.

And Steve is right on about listening to the music, not the equipment.

[F1nut]

Bravo, especially #1 and 2.

#4, I would point out applies to all formats, not just CD's.

[schwarcw]

Great words of wisdom! I would agree with all points. I like that your message applies to all types of equipment. It's not CD vs vinyl, or solid state vs tube. All your experience is relevant to all audio hobbyists, no matter what level of experience or investment. Thanks for the thoughtful post.:)

[Yashu]

I agree with just about all of that!

Also, about reference tracks and bad recordings, sometimes a bad recording can make a good reference. I have one Billy Cobham record that sounds harsh on all but the best systems, it is a good way for me to test things out quickly... if those symbols are harsh then whatever I just did/bought is no good!

I wish I had more audiophile friends... that would be cool... The friend I do have that is closest to an audiophile is more into HT and can't understand why I spend so much on "just stereo".

[Early B.]

All that rambling, and you failed to mention one of the most important things. The ROOM.

Agreed. But for many people, including myself, room treatments beyond the typical throw rug, drapes, etc. aren't feasible. I can't put bass traps in the corners of my den, or hang acoustic panels on the wall or suspend them from the ceiling.

[reeltrouble1]

Great words of wisdom! I would agree with all points. I like that your message applies to all types of equipment. It's not CD vs vinyl, or solid state vs tube. All your experience is relevant to all audio hobbyists, no matter what level of experience or investment. Thanks for the thoughtful post.:)

Yes Carl but just to avoid any little confusion......TUBES RULE;) :D

I always Enjoy Early's posts, he tries things out with such an open mind.

Good Points Bro.

Steve as well.

[Neskahi]

#4. So just how does one assure thay are purchasing
a quality recording? One that comes to mind is my son's
Led Zepplin Greatest Hits. Sounds like crap, it's old stuff
but muddled and zero stage effect. Eagle's Greatest Hits is
wonderful.

[cfrizz]

Precisely! Some artists took great care throughout the entire process of the album & some didn't. You won't find a bad cd of any Eagles album. The cd is a great medium for music. If you get a muddled one, blame whoever transferred the music to the cd!

#4. So just how does one assure thay are purchasing
a quality recording? One that comes to mind is my son's
Led Zepplin Greatest Hits. Sounds like crap, it's old stuff
but muddled and zero stage effect. Eagle's Greatest Hits is
wonderful.

[reeltrouble1]

So your letting that one pass Frizz??........gave up finally.......did ya...

Agreed, Eagles Desperado is awesome.

RT1

[hearingimpared]

Great rant EB. . .I like every point especially the CD are horrible one. However I do have some CDs that are real gems so I have to throw in with the some, not all, CDs are horrible camp, although they don't have the same depth of image that LPs have.

I have the Led Zepplin box set and it is awful but then again I just listened to the LP of Led Zepplin III, great, great music that sounds like pure diarrhea.

Tube rule huh!!! Well RT1 I can't argue cause I ain't heard any tubes in 20 years and back then the only thing they ruled was the trash can, noisy, microphonic messes.:p Not entirely true, I've heard Phil's CJ tube pre and it does sound sweet. I've also heard some tubed CDPs and they were awful.

I have to admit though I've never heard a fully tubed system and look forward to the experience.

[Early B.]

#4. So just how does one assure thay are purchasing a quality recording?

There are companies that produce high quality CDs such as Mapleshade, MSFL, Concord, Chesky, and a few others. Also check out www.stevehoffman.tv.

Most jazz recordings from folks like Blue Note are mastered fairly well. It's the commerical stuff (pop, rap, rock, etc.) that usually sounds horrific.

[hearingimpared]

There are companies that produce high quality CDs such as Mapleshade, MSFL, Concord, Chesky, and a few others. Also check out www.stevehoffman.tv.

Most jazz recordings from folks like Blue Note are mastered fairly well. It's the commerical stuff (pop, rap, rock, etc.) that usually sounds horrific.

Yep thems what I was talking about!

[Yashu]

I listen to a lot of electronic music. Abstract, IDM, minimalist, ect... and some of these albums take the medium of digital and turn it completely on it's head. Think about it... an album that may not have a single analog source or instrument, one crafted entirely in the digital realm... Autechre, are one of the artists that comes to mind, where the music can be so abstract, that you don't even have a reference point with which to compare, to find out how it is "supposed" to sound.

I enjoy these types of records A LOT because I am not listening to "find fault", I am listening to experience... and system tweaks and changes become more about finding the sound that gives you the most pleasure. It is kindof anti-audiophile but still a lot of fun. These albums also make great test CDs, because of the surgical detail and insane dynamics, to use along with "analog" music.

As digital becomes more "analog" (like with re-mastering, upsampling, SACD, ect...), I still think that it is kindof a cathartic experience to listen to a digital disc with 0% A/D conversion and associated perils.

[tonyb]

O % A/D conversion????
Somewhere along the chain,you still have A/D conversion going on before it hits your speakers.

[Yashu]

Not true.

Take Autechre's EP7 album. If I play it on a redbook transport that goes right to a good DAC and then out to my amp and then speakers, there is NO A/D conversion happening at all... the album was made digitally and the only conversion is the final D/A conversion, which is a totally different animal, since that is something that YOU can control, unlike how the album was recorded, mastered, transferred at the studio.

You can't fix a bad recording, you can only try to mask it's flaws, that was my point. With some electronic music, the recording is essentially "perfect", giving your system total control of the final sound.

[tonyb]

I get what your saying,but since all speakers are an analog device,playing anything digital will have to be converted.AS far as a/d conversion goes,you may be right,but d/a is always happening.Exactly how do you control the dac?
just curious.Point being,almost impossible to play something digital and hear it as such thru speakers that are analog,without some sort of coversion going on.


Btw- digital is not really perfect,all depends on the studio recording it to their taste.
Perfect to me is live music.

I guess I was confused,you ment a/d not d/a

[cfrizz]

There is nothing to give up on Ted. Your kind are an extinct species!:p ;) :D

So your letting that one pass Frizz??........gave up finally.......did ya...

Agreed, Eagles Desperado is awesome.

RT1

[tonyb]

I think the word your looking for Cathy is...unique.
Nothing like makeing dear 'ol Ted seem old by useing the word extinct.:)

[hearingimpared]

IPerfect to me is live music.



. . . unamplified live music at that. I've heard some extremely well done live performances recorded.

[madmax]

Although I’ve only been an audiophoole for a short time, I thought I’d share a few opinions and lessons learned. Hopefully, someone new to audio can gain something from it and the veterans can teach me something, as well. Feel free to disagree. Rambling complete...(until the next post).;)

Very well written! Although I somewhat agree with the general outline of your ramble, at least for most people, my general outlook is a little different. Below are some of my alternate thoughts.

1. Tone is everything. I found "tone" quite some time ago and truely believe it is #1. It can be had for high or low dollar amounts and is the real reason I like audio. When you hear all the different sounds of each instrument it is something wonderful.

2. Source? Gotta dispute this one. Synergy is the key, not the source. With synergy you can have a very low dollar setup which outperforms the highest priced (quality) setup.

3. If you got the wrong cables you will never get where you are going.

4. The worst CD's are better than the worst vinyl. However, the best vinyl just can't be beat for tone. Sure, there are different methods of comparison and if #1 for you is quietness or convienience, then CD's win hands down. If tone is #1, look towards vinyl.

5. Compile your best sounding tracks? Nah, only the novice does that. I used to. Forget what others think and play the piece of music that you think sounds cool, not the best. We all want to share that piece of heaven we found and have others agree but in reality, they will hear it differently anyway.

6. Buy the best gear? Absolutely correct. Trick #1 is knowing it will not necessarily cost the most or look the coolest. Trick #2 is knowing what the best is and how to listen for it. I'm still working on #2.

7. Right there with you on this one. Hearing the best out of other systems is absolutely necessary to figure out where you missed the boat. Believe me, you missed it somewhere.

8. Pretty? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It doesn't have to be stinkin' pretty. Give me the ugliest you got if it sounds the best. I can appreciate a classy looking system but at the end of the evening, it either sounds exceptional or it doesn't.

9. Buy used. Oh yea, let someone else take a 50%+ loss. I'm only interested in the sound, not what came out last week.

10. +10 on the forums.

11. Flip gear for awhile until it synergizes, then tweak the hell out of it.

At least those are my opinions.
madmax

[Early B.]

Very cool, Max. You got a good point on #2 re: synergy. Problem is -- you don't know you have synergy until you realize the gear you just bought sounds worse, then you gotta re-purchase the old stuff or sell the stuff you just got. The point at which you think your system starts to click is just the beginning. That's the dilemma audiophiles constantly find themselves in. On top of that, the baseline constantly changes. What you thought sounded great last week sounds like crap this week.

[hearingimpared]

Very cool, Max. You got a good point on #2 re: synergy. Problem is -- you don't know you have synergy until you realize the gear you just bought sounds worse, then you gotta re-purchase the old stuff or sell the stuff you just got. The point at which you think your system starts to click is just the beginning. That's the dilemma audiophiles constantly find themselves in. On top of that, the baseline constantly changes. What you thought sounded great last week sounds like crap this week.

Yep I'm absolutely with the synergy thing. I've really lucked out so far with synergy and I do have the week to week problem but I found that if I'm not in a good mood to stay away from the rig because a rotten mood leads to the rig sounding like somebody put horseshit in the drivers.

[Yashu]

Cables! Yes!

You never know how important they are until you try a bunch of them. Cables are a great way to "tune" your system after you have found your basic synergy. I never used to buy into this either until I started to swap cables after getting a good set of speakers that could reveal the differences. I have ICs that sound best with "dark" speakers, and ICs that sound best with "bright" speakers... I think as far as cables go, it is probably money better spent on interconnects than speaker wire... I am not sure why, but ICs seem to make greater sound differences.

Before I got into this, the natural assumption was to assume that speaker wire made the biggest difference... but some good extention cord wire, cat5 cable, or some halfway decent oxygen free radioshack stuff will work fine, but try to use any old RCA cable and your system can sound like puke.

[Early B.]

Before I got into this, the natural assumption was to assume that speaker wire made the biggest difference... but some good extention cord wire, cat5 cable, or some halfway decent oxygen free radioshack stuff will work fine, but try to use any old RCA cable and your system can sound like puke.

Keep tweaking. Speaker cables make an equally huge difference, too.

[MGPK]

All that rambling, and you failed to mention one of the most important things. The ROOM.

Room treatments will yield much greater improvement than any equipment upgrade.

And Steve is right on about listening to the music, not the equipment.

You hit the nail on the head. Besides speakers, your room is the second most important component. This is what I believe to be the hierarchy of an audio system in order of importance:

1. Speakers
2. Room (acoustical treatments)
3. Source components
4. Amplification
5. Cables

[GV#27]

This what I believe to be the hierarchy of an audio system in order of importance:

1. Speakers
2. Room (acoustical treatments)
3. Source components
4. Amplification
5. Cables
I agree mostly,I might give 1 and 2 equal #1 status.
A good speaker in an excellent room may well sound better than a excellent speaker in a poor room.

[W WALDECKER]

Numbers #2 #6 and #11 especialy ring true with me ,:D thanks for a Great Topic Early B....WCW III

[Polkitup2]

#3 - Just replaced my source to pre interconnect and pre to amp interconnects with audioquest Viper and Diamondback respectively. I had been using Outlaw Audio interconnects and some cheaper Transparent interconnects. After I bought them and I was driving home I was thinking like what an idiot I am for spending money on new cables when my existing cables should be just fine. After listening, it was much more of an improvement than I expected and I felt the money was well spent.

[reeltrouble1]

#12 get some tubes.:D

RT1

[mulveling]

A corollary to #2 and #4: Get a good vinyl rig! Do it right. Fund it by selling existing gear, if you have to. Go vinyl hunting! It's fun, and once you're all set up you'll have an severely enhanced ability to enjoy music, not just analyze it.

[Yashu]

Or on the flip side of that coin I would put my rule #13:

A PC, when set up properly, competes with the best transports out there, yet you can have every album you own right at your fingertips. I look at the PC (as a source) sortof like a TT... there is a certain combination of science, art, and luck (and money)... it is a tweaker's paradise.

[F1nut]

A PC, when set up properly, competes with the best transports out there, yet you can have every album you own right at your fingertips. I look at the PC (as a source) sortof like a TT... there is a certain combination of science, art, and luck (and money)... it is a tweaker's paradise.



I think not.

[madmax]

I look at the PC (as a source) sortof like a TT...

Look at it as a source if you must but please, not like a TT. :eek:

More like an audio library. I've heard sources such as FM, XM radio etc described this way. The PC fits right in. :)

madmax

[Yashu]

You cannot compare a PC to low-fi sources like XM and FM (even indie FM) radio. With PC audio you can tweak so many things with so many varying qualities that, like it or not, are analogous (pun intended) to a phonograph. Just like a TT, every tiny little detail makes audible differences, there are a million and one ways to get from point A to B, and it can get very expensive very fast if you are not careful.

I am not knocking vinyl at all, I am saying that just because PC audio is digital, doesn't make it any less difficult or rewarding to pursue. I have both a TT and a PC in my hifi, and both require just as much planning and effort to get the most out of them.

I love my TT, but besides a few nitche audiophile pressings, good vinyl just isn't being made anymore... and if you ever do find some modern music on vinyl it is either made for DJs, or some "nostalgia" pressing that, at best, is going to sound only as good as it's redbook counterpart.

But that is not what I was talking about anyway, as I said, PC audiophilia can be a rewarding effort, and is worth consideration, especially if you love to tweak.

[hearingimpared]

Or on the flip side of that coin I would put my rule #13:

A PC, when set up properly, competes with the best transports out there, yet you can have every album you own right at your fingertips. I look at the PC (as a source) sortof like a TT... there is a certain combination of science, art, and luck (and money)... it is a tweaker's paradise.

There is no way on God's Good Green Earth that you can even consider or even make a comparison "sortof like a TT". :eek:

[markmarc]

A PC, when set up properly, competes with the best transports out there, yet you can have every album you own right at your fingertips. I look at the PC (as a source) sortof like a TT... there is a certain combination of science, art, and luck (and money)... it is a tweaker's paradise.

Convience, absolutely. Tweaking opportunities, you bet. Transport quality, not even close. Too much vibration, electronic noise, output connection, etc. etc.

While I'm a firmbeliever in synergy, quality source componentry still trumps it, but not by much, IMHO. The key is finding the best of both worlds. That to me requires patience, and the ability to listen to the experiences of the various forum(s) members.

[hearingimpared]

I love my TT, but besides a few nitche audiophile pressings, good vinyl just isn't being made anymore... and if you ever do find some modern music on vinyl it is either made for DJs, or some "nostalgia" pressing that, at best, is going to sound only as good as it's redbook counterpart.



That is soooooo not true. I can name several great recordings that are new by pretty new bands and are excellant vinyl examples. I'm no DJ just the average Joe LP purchasing dude.

I will pit my copies of Maroon 5's "Songs about Jane," The Shins, "Wincing the Night Away," "Chutes Too Narrow," & Arcade Fire "Funeral" against their redbook counterparts and the LP blows the CD away with ease. I would have to agree with you when it comes to Red Hot Chili Peppers "Stadium Archadium" but that is only because whoever did the engineering and mix for the LPs of this album completely compressed the music so much that the CD sounds way better. Even the Killers "Sam's Club" is better on vinyl that the CD. Other than that one example of RHCP I totally disagree with you.

Don't you find it interesting that newer bands starting way back with Pearl Jam had their music put to vinyl. Why do you think that is?

[madmax]

You cannot compare a PC to low-fi sources like XM and FM (even indie FM) radio.

Sure I can. As a matter of fact, I think I did. :D

It is a convienient source of countless songs, video, information etc. They are going to be of all qualities from AM radio class to CD class. A library of media at your fingertips with countless ways to manipulate it.

Now if you want to add super quality outboard dacs and some mastering software with a bunch of live recordings to mix down and play at super high bit rates (in the realm of SACD) then we are talking something else, something more than mere convienience and mass storage.

madmax

[reeltrouble1]

maybe a tubed PC, oh wait, we already did that in 50's.................

our generational diversity continues to widen at Club Polk.

The digital age is going to save high end audio, like all formats it may have problems but as things get ironed out you will have access to more material than we ever thought possible at very high resolution, first the masses then the hobbiest/audiophile.

I am all for the future, especially the tubed future........

RT1

[madmax]

Don't you find it interesting that newer bands starting way back with Pearl Jam had their music put to vinyl. Why do you think that is?


Not to mention Alison Krauss, Tom Petty, Marilyn Manson and way too many more to think of. Of course these people are into sounds, not a collage of noise.

Mark my words, within the next decade vinyl is going to go mainstream again. (said with the shakey voice of an old grey bearded man with a cane).

madmax

[Yashu]

Even your pearl jam example, I had lumped into my "nostalgia" pressing pile... and as far as modern vinyl sounding better than the CD? The vinyl version is going to be limited by the Master... the same master that is used to make the CD. I guess it would depend on where in the chain the vinyl version was made... if the album was mastered in 20 bit and the vinyl was made from that point, then there is a chance at better dynamic range, but if the vinyl was cut from the same 16bit master that the CD is cut from, then all you are getting on the record is all the downside of reading a groove mechanically with none of the upside over the CD.

I don't listen to pop music, so maybe I am biased, so I am sure you are right about many of the more popular artists, if they have competent engineers that cut the vinyl from the high rez master, it can sound better than the CD. (yes I agree about RHCP, their last album was even worse, even the CD sounds thin and dimentionless)

It's too bad that the high rez digital formats didn't catch on as well...

[madmax]

if the album was mastered in 20 bit and the vinyl was made from that point, then there is a chance at better dynamic range, but if the vinyl was cut from the same 16bit master that the CD is cut from, then all you are getting on the record is all the downside of reading a groove mechanically with none of the upside over the CD.



Its my understanding that most artists who are into sound still use 2" tape and those who choose digital for convienience are mastered at a minimum of 24 bit.

madmax

[Yashu]

quality source componentry still trumps it, but not by much, IMHO.

Not even the BEST real time redbook playback and error correction can beat the accuracy of ripping a CD to your HD... Ripping a CD with max error correction can take hours, and once it is done, you have a bit perfect copy that is going to play perfectly every time. Real time playback can't match this. The PC gives one the *potential* to have better digital playback than even the best CDP, and at a fraction of the cost. That is the key for me, anyway... even compared to vinyl, your money can go farther in the digital world.

All these hipsters embracing vinyl is more of a "cool" factor than fidelity.

As far as FM and XM, FM does not have the dynamic range of redbook or vinyl, and XM/Sirius are compressed and are closer to MP3 format than redbook digital. HD radio... well... until decent (EG non-payola) indie stations start using that format, it is useless except for NPR.

[treitz3]

Yashu, were gonna have to agree to disagree on that one.

[Yashu]

Don't get me wrong... this is the first time since the CD was released in '82 that digital can truly give vinyl a run for it's money... That alone should be a testimant to the enduring quality of mechanical recording.

The guy that said Tubes and PCs... hehe... well the latest FAD in the PC audiophila world are tubed DACs with built-in USB support.

[madmax]

Don't get me wrong... this is the first time since the CD was released in '82 that digital can truly give vinyl a run for it's money...

So what is this piece of breaking technolgy you are talking about?

[Yashu]

I am talking about the current state of digital... We are only now getting the full potential from redbook CDs, it has taken 20 years or so but digital as a hi fidelity medium that can transport you to the "performance"... that has finally arrived and is within reach of the average audiophile.

Vinyl has been able to do this now for half a century, well... it has had the capability anynow, the rest of the components had to catch up, but when the CD came to the scene in 82, vinyl was where digital is at today... mature.

I don't think vinyl is the long term answer to what we are searching for, however. It may come back (and it has somewhat, I have seen more TTs for sale at big box stores now than in the 90's) to a point, but digital is only going to become more ubiquitous with higher resolutions and increasing quality. Hopefully there will be a standard high rez format that we can settle and work on in the way we have done with redbook CD over the last 25 years.

The only other thing, though, is nothing so far beats the "fun" of playing a record, watching it spin, the delicate needle threading through 40 minutes of groove... ever notice that when playing vinyl you are more apt to sit and listen to the music intently, and with digital you may want to pick up a book or magazine, or surf the web... still enjoying it, but not really zoning out as much to the music. Tape was cool too, I miss making mix tapes on a good deck with a good metal bias cassette...

[mulveling]

All these hipsters embracing vinyl is more of a "cool" factor than fidelity.

Haha :D
So I hope you have extensive experience with vinyl and high end downstream gear to back that statement up. My digital reference points are a Meridian G08 for redbook and a Sony SCD1 for SACD. For both fidelity & musicality, I prefer my turntable over either.

[hearingimpared]

... ever notice that when playing vinyl you are more apt to sit and listen to the music intently, and with digital you may want to pick up a book or magazine, or surf the web... still enjoying it, but not really zoning out as much to the music. Tape was cool too, I miss making mix tapes on a good deck with a good metal bias cassette...

You rested my case!!!:D

[markmarc]

Yashu:
Every format has it's advantages, as well as its low points. The problem with PC recordings (I'm not talking Olive Music Servers but true PC's) is that the componetry is not designed for audio, period. Way too much noise is emitted from the power supply. Even if the unit is sent to an outboard DAC, that garbage interfers with the end result. Secondly, hard drives are not a perfect medium either, plenty of coded info gets garbled or lost. Error correction is an endless task of any computer.

Respectfully, I'll stick my Jolida redbook cd player against any PC, I'll win every time. Why, it's designed for musical reproduction, not Bill Gate's latest version of Office.

But you are right about zoning out with tape and vinyl, there is something truly organic and wonderful. I can kick myself now for selling my 125 albums in college, some 90% that had only been played once for a buck a piece to finance my first dozen cd's in 1985.

[reeltrouble1]

wow, vinyl can sound better than digital, stop the press............

Yashu no offense but you do realize this is the Advanced Two Channel forum???

I can only think of Sherlock Holmes telling Dr. Watson, elementary......

The Meridian company mentioned above is envisioned and driven by Robert Thomas, Meridian invented a whole high resolution process called MLP, the best you can find in DVD-A, you really think some machine designed to process data can match the circuitry design of this machine specifically designed to do MLP playback?

Someday maybe it might approach some level, however, any multi functional machine is a compromise to convenience over quality. First digital will capture the masses, well in fact it has, then quality over quantity will eventually take place and bring a whole new generation of audiophoole's to bear. Moving digital formats along the path with them.

RT1

[hearingimpared]

First digital will capture the masses, well in fact it has, then quality over quantity will eventually take place and bring a whole new generation of audiophoole's to bear. Moving digital formats along the path with them.

RT1

Very well said, vinyl spinner.;)

[schwarcw]

Great discussion guys! I need more popcorn:D

[tonyb]

No doubt digital has room to improve on the quality side.But quality is not where the money is...quantity is.Thats why the hi-rez formats have stalled.Your typical age bracket of 12-20 yr olds don't give a hoot about quality.It's all about the cool factor and convenience.Only when you rippen to the age of Jesse or Ted,will you start to yearn for quality.I should talk,eh?:)

[Yashu]

I agree that most younger people don't give a crap about quality, hell I am not even that young and most of my friends laugh at me when they find out my system is "only stereo".

[engtaz]

That was said when we were kids.

[madmax]

Great discussion guys! I need more popcorn:D


Fine, you can have more popcorn but PLEASE use one of those older microwaves with the simple analog knob timers to make it in. You know, the ones with the bell that dings when its done. No need to get into digital algorithms with the new fangled microwaves that listen to how many pops in a given time period and check moisture in the air to determine when it is all popped. That is just too much technology and doesn't work as well as listening for yourself. :)
madmax

[cfrizz]

:D I don't like popcorn, but I'll take a glass of wine & pull up a chair.

Max...WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!:D :D :D

[zombie boy 2000]

These kids today. What with their hippity and a'hoppin. And their beepin' and a'boppin'. I remember back in aught'4 walking twenty miles uphill through a blizzard just to change the volume on my rig.

[hearingimpared]

These kids today. What with their hippity and a'hoppin. And their beepin' and a'boppin'. I remember back in aught'4 walking twenty miles uphill through a blizzard just to change the volume on my rig.

I had to do that with mine but I had to walk uphill through the blizzard both ways.:D

[engtaz]

:D I don't like popcorn, but I'll take a glass of wine & pull up a chair.

I prefer Sangria as my wine of choice.

[madmax]

Yashu has some good points. I believe the top few geeky pc enthusiasts (who just happen to be audiophiles and understand electrical noise considerations as well) could put together a pc system that would satisfy a lot of our needs. I think its a lot further away than he would like to think though.

One day when I have more cash on hand I'm going to put together a high quality pc sound system. Some nice external dacs, modified power supplies, separate linear supplies for the analog stuff, separated grounding, lots of shielding, dedicated software etc.

madmax

[reeltrouble1]

Well, as far as the young ones coming up my best analogy are my two sons, in their teens and early twenties all they cared about was how loud their car systems could play, you know hear it from two blocks away, boom boom boom, sony transport was not bad, but sounded like ass. I let them be, after a while of this, suddenly it was not about the loudness, but the sound, oh, now the type of amp, speaker, soundproofing yada yada, I feel this is a typical progression.

Viva Digital, Viva Vinyl, the more folks doing audio in any form the better. Whether mass or niche market there is something for everyone in this hobby, man has been making music since Adam opened his eyes and saw Eve.

He wrote the first love song, I believe BMG/Sony has the copyrights.

RT1

[Yashu]

I am a geek for sure... I was an audiophile and a computer geek seperately for years... and linking the two together came pretty naturally once companies started to take PC audio seriously. It has only been in the last couple years that it has become competitive; it is still a new idea with many different approaches.

With any luck, the greedy corporate payola-driven RIAA will continue to piss the kids off that crap and into our world where they can discover real music as it was meant to be heard...