Does the cables really matter??? Or it´s just good marketing?

[charliez]

Hi, I´m switiching to a serious AVR and just wondering if I must to invest in upgrade the speaker cables.
When I got my first receiver bought a reel of RCA 12 gauge cable and serve up today very well.

So, if I change to Monster or any other better brand. My performance will improve?

Ansiously waiting for your comments.

Thanks!

[McLoki]

It is my opinion that your performance will change. No guarantee if it will be better or worse though. If you are starting with 12guage cables, I would not worry about it unless the rest of your system is pretty stable and you do not plan to change much of anything in the near future.

While cables do sound differently from each other, I would consider them more a final system tweek rather than a place to start.

[MGPK]

When it comes to speaker cable, you don't need to break the bank to get the best out there. You can usually get good 12 AWG speaker wire for about a buck a foot. Forget about that time aligned crap that some manufacturers use to embellish their products and how other manufacturers say that their cables actually improve the sound. Any improvement that they claim is usually a colouration of sound.

[wingnut4772]

Yes. They matter. How much depends upon the cable. Just do your homework. The best cable I have found so far for the money is Dh Labs Q10. It is on par with the big buck guys for a lot less.

[F1nut]

The only way you will know is to try different cables for yourself.

[louthewiz]

Read this and remember that 12 ga monster cable and zip cord are all made the same way,:

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#wiretable

[F1nut]

Read this and remember that 12 ga monster cable and zip cord are all made the same way,:

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#wiretable

So, you'd believe something that someone wrote over your own ears? Not much of a wiz in my book.

[shack]

I think they matter a lot based on my own experience. I really don't care if anyone else thinks the same way or not.

HOWEVER, can't you "cables don't matter" guys come up with something besides that tired old "Roger Russell article"? :rolleyes:

[janmike]

The only way you will know is to try different cables for yourself.

BINGO. And it really does depend on what type of gear you have.

[louthewiz]

The reason I gave "Charliez" the speaker wire link was to illustrate the proper wire gauge to use in his application lengthwise ,
As for the wire it is mostly made by the same factory which is Carol cable and Leviton distributors , And this information is a know fact since I worked in the electrical contracting business for 25 years and the wire all comes from the same companies that distribute worldwide and then companies like monster AR and rca brands put their names on the insulation.

[F1nut]

If you believe that, I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you.

[louthewiz]

No I don't want to get stuck with the one you bought...

[F1nut]

You couldn't afford it anyway.

[danger boy]

your sound will improve as long as you stay away from Monster speaker wire. there wire that is the same. for less than half the price monster charges. buy something other than monster and you'll be fine.

[Polk65]

If you don't have problems with buying used, look around at the various auction sites like ebay or audiogon http://buy.audiogon.com/cgia/fsb.pl?cablspkr

Try cables out for a few weeks with familiar music, sell them and move on to other cables until you find the ones that you enjoy.

[liordra]

I think they matter a lot based on my own experience. I really don't care if anyone else thinks the same way or not.

HOWEVER, can't you "cables don't matter" guys come up with something besides that tired old "Roger Russell article"? :rolleyes:


The article says nothing about "cables don't matter", it clearly acknoledges that cables makes a sonic difference. How ever it claims that it is thickness and resistance that matter, and not neccacerily the BS major brands's salespeople say.

The article also mentions other acceptable sources.

but most importently the article proves that retailers deliberately mislead buyers when demonstrating high end cables. there is a pic taken in Circuit City demoing Monster cable with Polk Mon 40. they use 50 ft of Monster, very think cable, and 50 ft of "Generic" speaker wire, only it is very very thin.

Now, they could have used the same thikness of coper wire, and that would be an honest comparison, but I guess that unlike me, they know how to sale speaker cable.

That aside, who said good, informative articles have an expiration date ?

[F1nut]

Since wiz can't afford my bridge, how about you?

[fatchowmein]

My vote is yes they matter but upgrade all your other components first and work on speaker/sub placements and think heavily about the room acoustics (and room treatments) before you start tweaking with cables but that's my 2 cents. Cable management will help too.

Of course, if you start with very cheap sub-par cables then at the very least get them up to some sort of decent standard. I'm a married guy so every $ counts so I'd rather spend on speakers and electronics. Once I'm happy with them I'll start upgrading my cables if I'm having issues (speakers humming) or I'm bored (I like to tinker).

[tonyb]

Trial and error determined by your own ears.The better your gear,the more cables will make a difference.

Jesse's got bridges..? I want one!!:D

[mantis]

Depending on the level of gear you own will decide what level of cables you should look into. Go to high and you will not benefit from them go to low and lose performance.

Cables like any other part of your system matters. If you want to buy nice gear and wire it with lower end cables, thats your bussiness but know your system will not perform to the best of it's ability.

You can put any kind of tires on your car.............

[MGPK]

Depending on the level of gear you own will decide what level of cables you should look into. Go to high and you will not benefit from them go to low and lose performance.

Cables like any other part of your system matters. If you want to buy nice gear and wire it with lower end cables, thats your bussiness but know your system will not perform to the best of it's ability.

You can put any kind of tires on your car.............

So, what would you suggest that the ratio of hardware to cables be, and would that ratio work for systems of any price?

I believe that if you do a little research on cables, you do not need to spend a whackload of cash to optimize your system. But, it seems that most people are gullible to the marketing crap that cable manufactures put out. The way these cable manufactures advertise, you would think that they radically changed the laws of physics.

[shack]

But, it seems that most people are gullible to the marketing crap that cable manufactures put out.

It's a good thing you're here to set us poor gullible fools straight...:rolleyes:

[hearingimpared]

I buy ICs or speaker wire. I place them in my rig. I listen and then switch back and I listen. Then I switch back and I listen. If I like what I hear, I keep the product, if I don't I send it back or sell it.

See how simple . . . case closed. Cables matter!

[hearingimpared]

BTW try this website (http://www.usedcable.com/). They sell used cable and wire at huge discounts.

[MGPK]

It's a good thing you're here to set us poor gullible fools straight...:rolleyes:

Thanks man, i really appreciate that.;)

[WilliamM2]

So, if I change to Monster or any other better brand. My performance will improve?


Your performance will not change at all. Differences in sound between cables of the proper guage has never been verified. The "believers" will tell you that we don't yet know how to measure things like soundstage, depth, pace, etc., so basically measurements are worthless.

They will tell you to trust your ears, yet in cable comparisons, they can't tell the difference without seeing the cables being compared.

[wingnut4772]

Your performance will not change at all. Differences in sound between cables of the proper guage has never been verified. The "believers" will tell you that we don't yet know how to measure things like soundstage, depth, pace, etc., so basically measurements are worthless.

They will tell you to trust your ears, yet in cable comparisons, they can't tell the difference without seeing the cables being compared.

Yes.That's right. We are all lying to you.

[MGPK]

Yes.That's right. We are all lying to you.

If you did a blind ABX test, then you would discover the truth. Let your ears determine the difference of quality instead of your wallet or belief system.

[charliez]

Wooww. Excellent thread!
I´m discovering that cables it´s like religion or something like this :). Terms like "believers" or "belief", really I didn´t expect. :)

I think this level of discussion is very enriching since sometimes the truth is not just One.

I think I´ll try with any other cable but would try than cable cost less that my avr! :) I´m surprised with the high costs for some cables

Thanks for your thoughts!

[McLoki]

If you did a blind ABX test, then you would discover the truth. Let your ears determine the difference of quality instead of your wallet or belief system.

Something both sides of this argument apparently believe. I have listened to multiple cables and found they made a difference (sometimes better and sometimes worse). Provided MGPK followed his own advice, he apparently did not. (notice a difference that is)

I would be dubious of anyones opinion that starts with - I don't have to listen, I know......

Ultimately - its your system and your money. Go to a high end audio shop and verify that they have a return policy, pick up some nice cables (or ask if they have a demo set you can try out) and listen for yourself. Return your new cables or sell your old ones - doesn't matter one way or the other to me and my system - but that is the only way you will know if it matters to you.

Michael

[cfrizz]

Blue Jeans Cable
Signal Cable

Both are well made cables that won't break the bank.

Try them out.

[shack]

If you did a blind ABX test, then you would discover the truth. Let your ears determine the difference of quality instead of your wallet or belief system.

Most of the people here KNOW the truth because they have heard the truth. The belief comes from experience.

[MGPK]

Something both sides of this argument apparently believe. I have listened to multiple cables and found they made a difference (sometimes better and sometimes worse). Provided MGPK followed his own advice, he apparently did not. (notice a difference that is)

I would be dubious of anyones opinion that starts with - I don't have to listen, I know......

Ultimately - its your system and your money. Go to a high end audio shop and verify that they have a return policy, pick up some nice cables (or ask if they have a demo set you can try out) and listen for yourself. Return your new cables or sell your old ones - doesn't matter one way or the other to me and my system - but that is the only way you will know if it matters to you.

Michael

What a cable is supposed to do is convey the signal from the source to the gain stage with the least amount of resistance for the purest sound (but I'm sure you knew that). When you listened to your multiple cables, did you conduct a proper blind ABX test or are you relying on your memory. If it is the latter, you really don't have a good basis to form a debate on this subject. Most recording studios use standard cables for their equipment when recording and mastering media, so how can an esoteric cable improve on the original signal? A cable is a pipeline for communication between components, if it doesn't translate the information properly it can impede or colour the signal, and, without knowing exactly how the original recording sounded live, any so called improvement is subjective at best. But, like you said before, ultimately-it's your system and your money.

[wingnut4772]

MG, are you a Vulcan?

[reeltrouble1]

The best thing to do would be to give us a description of your gear and we will give you some wire brands to fit your system, we do need to know how long the wire runs are and the resistance of your speakers along with gear being connected.

I certainly hear differences in speaker wire, some more than others. The only way you will ever know is to try it and see. Remember you cannot hear any specifications or scope chart sweeps or what have you. Nobody listens to music A/B except a few tech nerds/geeks, they love data, not right or wrong its just what drives them, get very familiar with your rig and your music and whatever "good" wire you get, after sometime remove it and replace with the cheap wire and see if you hear difference. Possibly you have followed the advice to get some "demo" pair, (these usually cost some cash if you keep them, be warned) like em, keep em, if not return them with a thank you.

Appreciate the "all the same" guys for stopping in with someone else's opinion, I suppose to support their own, some folks are just not given the gift of hearing, hopefully, everyone though, is blessed in one way or another.

RT1

[a_mattison]

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45956&page=20

Here.... Start with post #596 for my own personal epiphany. (The search for "john K" to see why i said he can bite my ass)

[mantis]

What a cable is supposed to do is convey the signal from the source to the gain stage with the least amount of resistance for the purest sound (but I'm sure you knew that). When you listened to your multiple cables, did you conduct a proper blind ABX test or are you relying on your memory. If it is the latter, you really don't have a good basis to form a debate on this subject. Most recording studios use standard cables for their equipment when recording and mastering media, so how can an esoteric cable improve on the original signal? A cable is a pipeline for communication between components, if it doesn't translate the information properly it can impede or colour the signal, and, without knowing exactly how the original recording sounded live, any so called improvement is subjective at best. But, like you said before, ultimately-it's your system and your money.
Dude stop posting and go try out some cables man. You can talk to your blue in the face but if you can or can't hear any difference is where the value will lie.

[hearingimpared]

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45956&page=20

Here.... Start with post #596 for my own personal epiphany. (The search for "john K" to see why i said he can bite my ass)

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA I love when that happens.

[hearingimpared]

The best thing to do would be to give us a description of your gear and we will give you some wire brands to fit your system, we do need to know how long the wire runs are and the resistance of your speakers along with gear being connected.

I certainly hear differences in speaker wire, some more than others. The only way you will ever know is to try it and see. Remember you cannot hear any specifications or scope chart sweeps or what have you. Nobody listens to music A/B except a few tech nerds/geeks, they love data, not right or wrong its just what drives them, get very familiar with your rig and your music and whatever "good" wire you get, after sometime remove it and replace with the cheap wire and see if you hear difference. Possibly you have followed the advice to get some "demo" pair, (these usually cost some cash if you keep them, be warned) like em, keep em, if not return them with a thank you.

Appreciate the "all the same" guys for stopping in with someone else's opinion, I suppose to support their own, some folks are just not given the gift of hearing, hopefully, everyone though, is blessed in one way or another.

RT1


Hey RT1 how about those two recordings of Amanda McBroom where one was a Sheffield Labs direct to disc and the other was mastered with Monster Cables throughout the recording equipment and process.

Refresh my memory, which one sounded better?

[Bill Ayotte]

Wooww. Excellent thread!
I´m discovering that cables it´s like religion or something like this :). Terms like "believers" or "belief", really I didn´t expect. :)

I think this level of discussion is very enriching since sometimes the truth is not just One.

I think I´ll try with any other cable but would try than cable cost less that my avr! :) I´m surprised with the high costs for some cables

Thanks for your thoughts!

Are you looking for Speaker and IC cables? I can do the speaker cables and IC's for you, and I am not going to take your wallet for a ride...PM me with what you need (lengths, terminations, etc) and we can work something out. For a pic of the speaker cables, check out the Karma I just did...
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53046

[reeltrouble1]

Hey RT1 how about those two recordings of Amanda McBroom where one was a Sheffield Labs direct to disc and the other was mastered with Monster Cables throughout the recording equipment and process.

Refresh my memory, which one sounded better?


What records????????:D You really think I am going to answer that!!!!!!!!!!
Your right I am, it was the one with damm Monster Cable label, but, you know I can ALWAYS find a but you butt..........maybe the songs are just better............

Anybody who thinks cables do not matter should just go wireless speakers, I mean they don't matter so.....

RT1

[charliez]

Looks great Bill. PM sent.

[charliez]

Anyway, my gear for music is AVR3805, RTi4. RM6800 for HT.

Thoughts are welcome.

[F1nut]

....did you conduct a proper blind ABX test or are you relying on your memory. If it is the latter, you really don't have a good basis to form a debate on this subject.

Auditory memory is far better than you seem to believe. How else can you explain the following. An old friend calls you after the two of you haven't spoken in 10 years and yet you instantly recognize the voice. That happens all the time, solid proof that auditory memory is excellent. Auditory memory is ingrained in each of us as a basic survival skill from the second we are born. Some say even before we're born, but that's another discussion.

I've put this out before, but maybe it's time to do so again. My house, my gear, my cables and my choice of music. You bring whatever cables you want and I'll nail my cables 100% of the time. Throwing a bunch of people in an unfamilair room with unfamilair gear and unfamilair cables proves nothing except that everyone is unfamilair with what they are hearing.

[ben62670]

I laughed at rich dummy's who bought expensive cables when I first joined this forum. Now I have $475, $200 speaker cables, and a tone of DIY stuff that I have copied from many manufacturers. My speaker cables are 4 solid wires a pair, not stranded, and one set uses batteries. They made a huge difference in SQ. My detail, sound stage, and bass slam have all improved. It really depends on a lot of different factors including Equipment, environment, and taste. Everyones ears are different. Now after saying that the right synergy most people that hear the proper setup will agree on the choice of cables.

[WilliamM2]

Auditory memory is far better than you seem to believe. How else can you explain the following. An old friend calls you after the two of you haven't spoken in 10 years and yet you instantly recognize the voice.

Of course you can, every human voice is unique. But can you tell if he is using the same telephone? Or if he has changed the phone wire in his house?

[WilliamM2]

I laughed at rich dummy's who bought expensive cables when I first joined this forum. Now I have $475, $200 speaker cables, and a tone of DIY stuff that I have copied from many manufacturers.

Isn't it amazing what a little peer pressure, and a desire to fit in will do? Now you can say you hear just as well as the "golden ears". You know, that group that claims huge differences in cables, but can never pass a double blind, or ABX comparison test. Lucky you.

[hearingimpared]

Are you looking for Speaker and IC cables? I can do the speaker cables and IC's for you, and I am not going to take your wallet for a ride...PM me with what you need (lengths, terminations, etc) and we can work something out. For a pic of the speaker cables, check out the Karma I just did...
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53046

Hey they're mine. . . Okay just give me a 15% advertising fee and we'll call it even!!!:D

[hearingimpared]

Isn't it amazing what a little peer pressure, and a desire to fit in will do? Now you can say you hear just as well as the "golden ears". You know, that group that claims huge differences in cables, but can never pass a double blind, or ABX comparison test. Lucky you.

Well if you are so sure about it that you are going to insult one of the decent members then why don't you take F1Nut up on his offer? I'll put my rig against yours, if he can't pick his cables out you can have my rig. If he can you throw your rig in the garbage and never post in a "cables & wires" thread here ever again! DEAL??? Or do you think I am trying to "just fit in?"

I've put this out before, but maybe it's time to do so again. My house, my gear, my cables and my choice of music. You bring whatever cables you want and I'll nail my cables 100% of the time. Throwing a bunch of people in an unfamilair room with unfamilair gear and unfamilair cables proves nothing except that everyone is unfamilair with what they are hearing.

[reeltrouble1]

Anyway, my gear for music is AVR3805, RTi4. RM6800 for HT.

Thoughts are welcome.

Well, if Bill is sending you some speaker cables then you are off too the races, there was once a talked about ratio for cabling to gear, I never really bought into it though, that being an exact ratio, but it certainly does not make sense to buy a very expensive cable for gear that cannot benefit from it. It just takes a little common sense, which you know you have because you are afterall at Club Polk.

Now your Denon is a nice receiver, the Rti 4 bangingly good bookshelves, of course we all live within budgets and some folks are just more frugal about spending money, so, do not spend more than you are comfortable with. We have talked alot about speaker wire but I think you are getting some, if not the Signal Cable company would be very nice for your gear, they also make nice interconnects which do also matter, some feel they matter more than the speaker wire, some feel not, see we can debate about that, but they matter, if you call Frank at Signal he will give you a little discount if you mention Club Polk and your membership here. Additionally, he is also an excellent experienced audio resource person and will talk to you about what your plans may be, what types of wire and in terms that are understandable. The BlueJeans cable company mentioned is another place.

For your HT well, as you run the wire certainly not less than 18 guage, depending on the lengths, I personally like at least 14, many use 12 guage, I use 8 guage on one of my musical rigs with fancy connects you screw on and off, the way the wire connects with the equipment is a major consideration, not that bare wire cannot be for you, it can work very well as a matter of fact, my fancy wires sounds great in that rig I mentioned. Make sure all the connections are good and tight. The oxygen free 99.9 wire is good, it actually removes a ferrite that is what really does the damage to the wire if it is trapped inside the insulating sheath.

Have fun and most of all if you experiment your ears will tell you when to stop. Someday, who knows, you may be telling your friends........Hey look at my wires..........then they start calling you geek and stuff like that, I love it.

RT1

[WilliamM2]

Well if you are so sure about it that you are going to insult one of the decent members then why don't you take F1Nut up on his offer?

I insulted him? As far as taking F1 up on his offer, if I recall, he is using MIT cables, with network boxes attached. Those little boxes have electronics in them which will change the sound. It's not the wire.

If he can you throw your rig in the garbage and never post in a "cables & wires" thread here ever again! DEAL???

I'll tell you what, don't try and tell me what threads I can post in, and I will do the same for you. Deal?

[hearingimpared]

I insulted him? As far as taking F1 up on his offer, if I recall, he is using MIT cables, with network boxes attached. Those little boxes have electronics in them which will change the sound. It's not the wire.



I'll tell you what, don't try and tell me what threads I can post in, and I will do the same for you. Deal?

I wasn't telling you anything, I was trying to make a bet with you! It seems you have found an out.

[hearingimpared]

I insulted him?

I think telling an adult he is caving to peer presure and just trying to fit in is insulting especially a guy who designs and makes ICs, speaker wire and speakers.

[WilliamM2]

I wasn't telling you anything, I was trying to make a bet with you! It seems you have found an out.

Sorry, I don't bet, about anything. Besides, I'm sure F! knows that no one is going to travel great distances to see him pick out his cables. It's an easy offer to make.

If he really wants to prove it to anyone, he can arrange a double blind/ABX comparison in his own home, with an impartial witness or two. You could do the same, it's been done before, and so far, null results.

[hearingimpared]

You could do the same, it's been done before, and so far, null results.

Could you provide the data for the "it's been done before and so far, null results" statement?

[WilliamM2]

I think telling an adult he is caving to peer presure and just trying to fit in is insulting

It was not meant that way, we all have fallen prey to those factors at one time or another, and are usually totally unaware of it.

[hearingimpared]

It was not meant that way, we all have fallen prey to those factors at one time or another, and are usually totally unaware of it.

I'll go along with that but not in Ben's case.

[ben62670]

My start was some simple PBJ's that I found on Ebay. It made a good difference compared to aftermarket high end "Wal Cheese" cables. Then a fellow Polkie came over with some Audio Quest, and I just about crapped my pants at the benefits, and it continued on from there.

[F1nut]

Of course you can, every human voice is unique. But can you tell if he is using the same telephone? Or if he has changed the phone wire in his house?

Just as every cable is unique, just as each rig is unique, just as the same exact gear will sound different in a different room. Thank you for validating my point.

You know what? I was talking to Rich earlier this evening, at one point he changed phones. I could hear the difference immediately.

Who ever changes the phone wire in their house??? :rolleyes:

[F1nut]

Sorry, I don't bet, about anything. Besides, I'm sure F1 knows that no one is going to travel great distances to see him pick out his cables. It's an easy offer to make.

If he really wants to prove it to anyone, he can arrange a double blind/ABX comparison in his own home, with an impartial witness or two. You could do the same, it's been done before, and so far, null results.


I'm within an hour or less of two major cities, within two hours or less of many more and less than 4 from the largest city in America. I've driven greater distances just to hear gear, so what's the big deal?


I'm not the one who needs to prove anything, you are. I already know.

[liordra]

All this talk about proof is a very confusing to me. proving there is a sonic different is one thing, proving there is a major improvement is an all together different thing. proving there is a difference which justifies times 100 the expense is practically impossible (but of course that is an individual thing).

Some cables changes sound coloration, So I guess you will hear a difference, but it is an improvement over a flatter cable? Identifying some minuet difference does not mean, that the difference is necessarily for the better.

picking cables is easy enough if you try to distinguish between 10 g and 24 g 50 ft cables (Like demonstrated in plenty of retailer's display). the question is what are the statistics of picking between a couple of same thickness cables; one a decent quality radio shack cable, another a hi-fi proof, highest end cable.
I don't know how I might do in such a test, because I never took one.

I'm using Monster interconnects (they were on sale), and some "Generic" (think an elephant's skin though) speaker wire (branded lexus or something). I quite happy with the performance.

[reeltrouble1]

I am glad your happy so am I. Two happy people, we can spread our joy across the land, it is our duty, afterall.

Enjoy the music along the way.

Be careful--Anti Hi-Fi audio insurgents lurk along the path.

RT1

[liordra]

Be careful--Anti Hi-Fi audio insurgents lurk along the path.


So are the Un Funny.

[WilliamM2]

You know what? I was talking to Rich earlier this evening, at one point he changed phones. I could hear the difference immediately.


That was not ten years later.

[wingnut4772]

William,

I just can't believe that someone would not be able to hear the differences in say a Cobalt speaker cable and say a DH Labs speaker cable. I am no expert and there are clear differences and it is not wishful thinking or peer pressure. For some anonymous naysayer on the internet to say that we are just hearing things is insulting.

If I really heard no difference I would save some dough. I have also had very expensive cables in my system over the DH Labs and chose the DH Labs because I preferred their sound. Your logic says I should have liked the more expensive cables.

[WilliamM2]

I'm not the one who needs to prove anything, you are. I already know.

Your the one who claims you can pick the correct cable every time, not me. As I said above, you could easily prove your claim in your own home, without me driving days to get to your place.

[WilliamM2]

I just can't believe that someone would not be able to hear the differences in say a Cobalt speaker cable and say a DH Labs speaker cable. I am no expert and there are clear differences and it is not wishful thinking or peer pressure. For some anonymous naysayer on the internet to say that we are just hearing things is insulting.

You would think with such "clear differences" that it would be easy to pass a DBT/ABX test. Can you explain why no one has? Have you ever done a blind test to see if you could tell the difference then?

[ben62670]

WilliamM2
I was a strong believer in that cables didn't make a difference in sound quality. If you have read many of my post it would be very clear that I don't give a rat's ass about "fitting in". I come here to learn, and share. Its really funny how you can tell what people can hear, or not. It doesn't take a Golden Ear to hear the difference between many cables. IC's, and speaker wire are analog not digital. A good analysis is making an instrument out of different kinds of wood. Some people do buy cables, and speakers just to fit in(can you say Monster, and Bose?) I don't have the kind of money to "fit in" I could certainly use that money else where. You obviously have never tried doing a cable swap with real cables (I'm not talking monster vs RCA vs AR), or you really don't hear a difference, but to keep going on telling people what they hear, and insulting them makes you look like a Rude Jackass. You have posted your opinion, and I think the starter of this thread knows what you believe so... STFU

[WilliamM2]

You obviously have never tried doing a cable swap with real cables (I'm not talking monster vs RCA vs AR), or you really don't hear a difference, but to keep going on telling people what they hear, and insulting them makes you look like a Rude Jackass. You have posted your opinion, and I think the starter of this thread knows what you believe so... STFU

I have compared different cable in my rig, and also participared in cable comparisons at the local audio store years ago. No one could tell a difference, except the salesman, and he was the one swapping the cables.:rolleyes:

You tell me to STFU, but claim I'm the rude jackass? And please show me where I have insulted anyone, I certainly haven't called anyone names, as you believers seem quick to do.

And I will post my opinion in any thread I feel like, as many times as I feel like, just as you do.

[ben62670]

I have compared different cable in my rig, and also participared in cable comparisons at the local audio store years ago. No one could tell a difference, except the salesman, and he was the one swapping the cables.:rolleyes:

You tell me to STFU, but claim I'm the rude jackass? And please show me where I have insulted anyone, I certainly haven't called anyone names, as you believers seem quick to do.

And I will post my opinion in any thread I feel like, as many times as I feel like, just as you do.

I said you were acting like a rude JA, and as for the STFU comment that is because you are in the teeny tiny minority of people who claim to know anything about Hi Fi that think cables can't improve sound, and yet you keep posting arguments about what other people can hear. What you are doing is misleading the original poster of this thread by posting, and posting about something you don't believe in. So you have made it clear on what you believe. Why do you keep arguing with what every other person who shares their opinion on what they can hear, and yes I think you are being insulting by saying "people just want to fit in". If they just wanted to fit in they would buy a set of overpriced cables, and say oh look what I have, and be done. Not go out and try different cables till they got the sound they were looking for. What does anyone have to gain by this person going out, and buying a good set of cables?

[shack]

I have done a double blind ABX test in my home, on my gear, with music I was very familiar with. I have recounted on this forum on several occasions that I was able to discern a difference each time and EVEN tell when the person did not change the cable. Each time I posted I was told that it really wasn’t scientific and it was still voodoo and/or snake oil. This was the point in time where I decided that I really don't care if a person can/can't hear a difference or believes it or not. I am glad to give my opinion or experience to anyone who asks. What they do with the information matters not to me.

What I am tired of is responding to someone and then being told I am naive, ignorant, brainwashed, etc by someone who joins the forum and proceeds to attempt to save us fools from the error of our ways. I am well educated, a successful businessman, have great hearing and I have been participating in this hobby for a long time (40 ± years) and I know what I hear....and I can hear a difference.

For the rest of you...enjoy what you do or don't hear...cause I don't care.

[WilliamM2]

I said you were acting like a rude JA, and as for the STFU comment that is because you are in the teeny tiny minority of people who claim to know anything about Hi Fi that think cables can't improve sound, and yet you keep posting arguments about what other people can hear.

On this forum, dis-believers may be in a minority, but that is not the case everywhere, and certainly not the conclusion in properly performed tests.

What you are doing is misleading the original poster of this thread by posting, and posting about something you don't believe in.

And I believe you are misleading the original poster. The difference is that you could cause him to waste good money on snake oil, where as my opinion will cost him nothing.

So you have made it clear on what you believe.

And you keep replying to my posts. So I guess what you want is the final word, without any rebuttal, even though you have provided no evidence of your claim other than "I can hear it".

This is a discussion board, if you don't want to discuss it, don't reply to my posts. And quit trying to tell me what opinions I can post, or how often, it just shows how weak your argument is.

[hearingimpared]

On this forum, dis-believers may be in a minority, but that is not the case everywhere, and certainly not the conclusion in properly performed tests.

And I believe you are misleading the original poster. The difference is that you could cause him to waste good money on snake oil, where as my opinion will cost him nothing.



This is what I wrote to the originator of this thread is post #23.

I buy ICs or speaker wire. I place them in my rig. I listen and then switch back and I listen. Then I switch back and I listen. If I like what I hear, I keep the product, if I don't I send it back or sell it.

See how simple . . . case closed. Cables matter!


How can you possibly say I am misleading this person?

I asked you in post #55 to:

You could do the same, it's been done before, and so far, null results.

Could you provide the data for the "it's been done before and so far, null results" statement?

You didn’t!!! or couldn't is more like it!

I also offered a wager to take up F1Nut on his offer to compare wire in his rig. . . You found a bogus out!!!


So if I were the originator of this thread I would look at you as just a naysayer who wants to stir up the pot with non facts or non facts to support your position.

If the originator of this thread doesn’t see that, then I will make it clear:

WilliamM2 is full of shit and hasn't provided one shread of evidence to support his stance . . . period!!!

Dear charliez,

From my vast experience with ICs, speaker wire and power cords I can tell you without hesisitation that I have heard differences in different cable products from different manufacturers. In some cases I didn't hear a difference and returned the product, in other instances I heard a difference and didn't like what I heard and returned the product, in other cases I heard a difference and it was an improvement of what I had in my rig at that time and kept the product.

This is what I suggest you try.

[F1nut]

That was not ten years later.

You're right. It was just like swapping cables in a rig, it only takes a few seconds.


Your the one who claims you can pick the correct cable every time, not me. As I said above, you could easily prove your claim in your own home, without me driving days to get to your place.

Quit trying to flip the burden of proof. You're the one who keeps saying cables don't matter, so it's up to you to prove they don't.

[WilliamM2]

Could you provide the data for the "it's been done before and so far, null results" statement?

You didn’t!!! or couldn't is more like it!


Sorry Hearing, I must have missed that post, here are some links for you:

http://www.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_wire.htm
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/feature-article-blind-test-power-cords-12-2004.html
http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=10620

Now, can you give me one link showing a test with positive results? Where is your evidence?

No reason to respond with insults, just because you have nothing to back up your claims.

I also offered a wager to take up F1Nut on his offer to compare wire in his rig. . . You found a bogus out!!!


I'm not traveling over 1000 miles to F1's place, and you knew that all along. And he refuses to prove it on his own.

[WilliamM2]

Quit trying to flip the burden of proof. You're the one who keeps saying cables don't matter, so it's up to you to prove they don't.

I am not claiming any special abilities, therefore have nothing to prove, or that can be proved. Your the one claiming the ability, so the burdon is on you. Apparently you don't understand scientific method.

[F1nut]

the question is what are the statistics of picking between a couple of same thickness cables; one a decent quality radio shack cable, another a hi-fi proof, highest end cable.




You bring up a good point. Wire gauge alone is no way to judge a cable as there is so much more involved. Stranded or solid, if stranded how many strands, are they twisted together or a combination of twisted and straight wire, if stranded is each strand individually wrapped or are they wound together, what is the insulation material around the wire, what is the insulation material on the outer jacket, etc. The variables go on and on.

[F1nut]

I am not claiming any special abilities, therefore have nothing to prove, or that can be proved. Your the one claiming the ability, so the burdon is on you. Apparently you don't understand scientific method.

Really? Then that makes your original claim of, "Your performance will not change at all." is just another bogus statement on your behalf? Thought so.

Apparently, auditory memory isn't your only short coming.

[aaharvel]

seems to make a difference to my ears - however that may just be my imagination - and the fact that i have a mid-fi setup. A higher-fidelity setup one would think would lead to more noticeable steps up (or down) in quality.

[steveinaz]

I think the answer is "maybe". Depending on how resolute your system is, and wether or not you can detect the subtleties that cable upgrades bring. It's not so much that cable "a" is better than cable "b," it's more of a change of tonal character between two cables. Some cables present a fuller sound, some leaner; some push treble forward, some are laid back--probably moreso attributable to topology/execution than materials--but that's just my opinion. The main thing is to get a well terminated, well made cable, using wire that is designed for the task.

Bottom line though is as F1Nut said...try it for yourself.

[hearingimpared]

Sorry Hearing, I must have missed that post, here are some links for you:

http://www.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_wire.htm
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/feature-article-blind-test-power-cords-12-2004.html
http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=10620

Now, can you give me one link showing a test with positive results? Where is your evidence?




I asked YOU to provide proof, not someone else's opinion which is all you've been spouting here, someone else's opinion!!!. I'm working off of my own experience!!! I've provided my results a couple of times. You show links, I speak about my EXPERIENCE, something you can't do because you have such a closed mind due to someone else's data.


I'm not traveling over 1000 miles to F1's place, and you knew that all along. And he refuses to prove it on his own.

I have no idea where you live so another of your misleading or closed minded rhetoric if you'd like has been debunked.

[WilliamM2]

Really? Then that makes your original claim of, "Your performance will not change at all." is just another bogus statement on your behalf? Thought so.

Except that science backs up my claim, nothing backs up yours.

[reeltrouble1]

Let me see, a poster asked for opinion, he/she gets them, so a couple guys disagree about how some of the personal opinion has been developed because it does not meet their personal criteria for an opinion, they seem to want others to tell them through some sort of test what their opinion should be......data get me the data,

WTF???????????????

Who the heck sits down to listen to music for a couple hours and then starts and stops things for some test, its just not my bag, listening to one thing and another for some test........not me that is for sure, never have can't say I ever will.

But what do I know, except that when I have tried different type of cables and connects things sound to different to me.............anyway everything sounds great today.

RT1

[WilliamM2]

I asked YOU to provide proof, not someone else's opinion which is all you've been spouting here, someone else's opinion!!!.

Go back and read the links, they are not opinions, but properly conducted tests. I'm still waiting for ANY proof you have, other than "I can hear it". That is just opinion, do you know the difference?

[WilliamM2]

You show links, I speak about my EXPERIENCE, something you can't do because you have such a closed mind due to someone else's data.


I do not have a closed mind, I used to believe cables made a difference, until I compared them myself at home, and sat in on a couple of comparisons at the local audio store.

You on the other hand are afraid to do any kind of proper comparison that may refute one of your beliefs. That is the definition of closed minded. Nice try though...

[danger boy]

STFU

have a nice day! :)

[F1nut]

Except that science backs up my claim, nothing backs up yours.

You really don't get it, do you!?!

[a_mattison]

You really don't get it, do you!?!

Nope... Doesn't get it. He may be related to John K.

I'm still on the fence regarding speaker cable price vs. quality, but I'm definately sold on IC design making a large difference. After instally my Signal Cable IC's from Polkfest, I was just listening to a particular Jewel song in HDCD format that used to have a resonance in her louder vocals that I simply didn't care for. I attributed it to the RTi70's, but with the new cables, the resonance is gone. Awesome.......

[hearingimpared]

Phil brought a used digital cable over about a month and a half ago, I forget what the brand was, maybe he'll chime in, but I was always a doubter about a digital cable having any real affect on the music. We connected it between my Oppo digital out to my Timbre DACs digital in and it was like a revelation. The music opened up, the details were more three dimentional, much more air between instruments, it sounded similar to what a good LP does to the music. I switched back to my Signal Cable digital (which is no slouch) and man what a difference. I didn't get to spend a whole lot of time with it but when I went over to Phils place after that, he had it in his system and, contrary to what someone says here, I have a good acoustic memory, it transformed PHil's system. He purchased the cable here: http://www.usedcable.com/ they have great deals on really good cables.

[danger boy]

Joe,
that's great.. and I believe you... i have tried out a few different digital coax cables. and my belief is that as long as you use a good one, you should do fine. i put the same amount of importance in digital cables as I do IC's ad speaker cables.. why have any weak links in your system?





Phil brought a used digital cable over about a month and a half ago, I forget what the brand was, maybe he'll chime in, but I was always a doubter about a digital cable having any real affect on the music. We connected it between my Oppo digital out to my Timbre DACs digital in and it was like a revelation. The music opened up, the details were more three dimentional, much more air between instruments, it sounded similar to what a good LP does to the music. I switched back to my Signal Cable digital (which is no slouch) and man what a difference. I didn't get to spend a whole lot of time with it but when I went over to Phils place after that, he had it in his system and, contrary to what someone says here, I have a good acoustic memory, it transformed PHil's system. He purchased the cable here: http://www.usedcable.com/ they have great deals on really good cables.

[hearingimpared]

Go back and read the links, they are not opinions, but properly conducted tests. I'm still waiting for ANY proof you have, other than "I can hear it". That is just opinion, do you know the difference?

Not my opinion, my EXPERIENCE with listening to cables in my rig. I'll take my ears over some antiseptic oscilliscope, blind test, any day. My ears and my likes in music are what need to be satisified not my need to prove whether I hear it or not.

My rig sounds great. Ask anyone who's heard it. It was built with higher and high-end cables that I choose that sounded great in my rig, great synergy with my equipment not on what some double blind hocus pocus oscilliscope test told me should sound good.

By the way here is one for you William. A few years back, a fellow was spewing that in order for a rig to sound and reproduce music properly, it had to have a flat response coming through every component including the speakers. His theory made sense so I aquired the equipment needed to to get the rig I had at the time, which was no slouch by any means, and proceed to get all frequecies to come out ruler flat . . . all the instruments showed that the frequencies were as the test suggested.

Guess what, it sounded like pure shit. A boom box sounded better.

Screw the ZYX/ABC triple blind, stand on your head tests. . .my ears are what tell me what sounds good!!! Not yours, mine, not some engineer that has a grudge against cable manufacturers, my ears.

From this point further, you are on ignore list cause really all you want to do is incite, where we are trying to share our experience with this thread starter.

[ben62670]

Billy M2
This is what I posted about cables six months ago

"The adcom use a fairly high amount of current to operate. i have the GFP-500, GFA-585, GFA-555,GFA-7500, and GFA-5400. I had factory's to start, and I upgraded to AR's from best buy (stop laughing). If you are doing short runs buy short cables. Mine are nicely insulated, shielded, low loss cables. If you are rich and you want to show off your Fancy cables to your friends spend $100 or more per set. All that travels down that wire is a low voltage signal. If there is no loss of signal going from 1 unit to another you will get the same sound. High dollar cable does not manipulate sound, no loss is no loss. Plan your wiring is better advice than spending high dollars. Don't run signal wires parallel with speaker wires or power chords. Some of the retarded S#!t I see in high end magazines makes me sick. Are people really stupid enough to believe that if you freeze cables down to 270 below zero it makes your system sound better? Keep your connections clean, runs short, routed properly, and the shielded cables like the AR's will work for you. If you are running long distances, or near alternating current, through a wall with speaker wire then I can see justifying the slightly more expensive wire. I was actually thinking of making custom cables for rich dummies, create some story why my cables are so good, how the earths rotation and magnetic field affect sound quality. Maybe even through in a bit about how my cables are impervious to alien communication, and navigation signals. I just don't have it in me to rip off rich dummies. If I upset anyone hear with my comments I will be making a custom set of .5 meter alien proof patch cables for you that only cost $549. Have a nice day Ben :-)"

I have opened up my mind, and tried different cables.
Now I have some pretty nice wires that have made a world of difference. :p

[WilliamM2]

Screw the ZYX/ABC triple blind, stand on your head tests. . .my ears are what tell me what sounds good!!!

A dbt/abx test only involves your ears, apparently you don't trust yours as much as you think.

From this point further, you are on ignore list cause really all you want to do is incite,

You call me full of shit, but I'm the one who is trying to incite?

And now you can even hear differences in digital cables? Somehow the cable is changing the data on the disc? I can't imagine why anyone would doubt your "experience".

Go ahead and put me on ignore, I've read enough voodoo.

[charliez]

Really I´ve learned a lot about cables reading this thread. However I didn´t make any change in my cables yet.

I´ll do an unbiased test and post the results. I could compare my actual RCA 12g with some ordinary lamp wire same size. And see what happens.

[F1nut]

Quess you forgot writing this too.......

We don't all hear things the same way.

Your word for today is HYPOCRITE.

[WilliamM2]

Your word for today is HYPOCRITE.

Nice quote, but it has no relevence here. In was in reference to why some prefer tube sound, and some prefer SS. I never claimed tube and SS sound the same.

[liordra]

A dbt/abx test only involves your ears, apparently you don't trust yours as much as you think.



You call me full of shit, but I'm the one who is trying to incite?

And now you can even hear differences in digital cables? Somehow the cable is changing the data on the disc? I can't imagine why anyone would doubt your "experience".

Go ahead and put me on ignore, I've read enough voodoo.

Actually, some digital standards (HDMI for example) are half duplex (AKA connectionless protocol) , which means data flows in one direction only. there is no error correction in the protocol, no packet resend. For example, If you have some experience with computer Networks, you'd know then when the wiring is crap, the data travels slowly. but eventually, it gets from computer to computer intact. thats because TCP/IP has transfer control, and will resend over and over missing/corrupt packets. you can't do that with HT. a 2 hour movie, is a 2 hour movie. its soundtrack can't play for 2.5, because you have a crap cable. add to that the inherited design flows of DVI/HDMI and digital cable quality does make some difference.

[F1nut]

Nice quote, but it has no relevence here. In was in reference to why some prefer tube sound, and some prefer SS. I never claimed tube and SS sound the same.


Of course it has relevence here. You can't say, "We don't all hear things the same way." and selectively apply it to amps alone.

[WilliamM2]

Of course it has relevence here. You can't say, "We don't all hear things the same way." and selectively apply it to amps alone.

I don't selectively apply it to amps alone, I apply it to most any audio component.

The fact that we don't all hear things the same way, has no relevence to things that can't be heard at all.

[F1nut]

There you go again, insulting folks that can easliy hear the differences that you can't. The thing here, William, is that no one here doubts your auditory skills. Why you continue to doubt ours, in my book, is an attitude that is nothing short of ignorant.

[THX 3417]

Wishful sounding as it may all seem but I’d never be that crazy in spending a fortune on cables, outrageous is all I can say.

I’ve just made a few leads to connect from the AVR with RCA phone on one end and XLR on the other that connects to (Behringer DCX 2496) loudspeaker management system and all seem well and the cable only cost me along with XLR and RCA phones and brand new soldering iron £16.20p:p . If I was using Monster I’d be well in the hundreds by now and I wouldn’t be a happy bunny about it ether.

So a good common sense of affordable cable rules over expensive cables is all I can say.:)

[Polk65]

WilliamM2 you have an opinion but take off your blinders. 20 years ago I immediately heard and felt the difference between radio shack 12 gauge stranded brown speaker wire and the "step up" to monster cable finely stranded wire. I still vividly remember how the midrange opened up and the bass was stronger. Times have changed and I have tried other brands.

Why does it take three pages for a simple message? Try something new and if you hear a difference great. If not put your upgrade money into music or movies. :confused:

[tonyb]

Dontcha just love these cable debates? Yeah right........someone brought up a good analogy with car tires.All are made from rubber,yet have different performance levels.Design,thickness,quality of that rubber,all play a role in the outcome.Same in cables.Another example,I picked up a pair of Mac Soundpipes just to see what the whole Palladium thing was about.I put the I/C's Between my receiver and amp.Big difference in alot of ways,some good,some not so good as compared with my Z squared IC's.Took the soundpipes upstaires to my wifes older Sony receiver,Sony mega changer,and her glorious Bose speakers....sarcasm guys....anyhow,did not hear any difference between her rat shack cable,and the soundpipes.So this tells me the better your gear,the more it will make a difference.Going back to the tire analogy,you may not notice the difference if you put top of the line Michelin's on a Ford escort,But put those factory tires from an Escort on a Caddy or Lincoln,and you'll feel every bump in the road.Those who don't think cables make a difference.....have no experience with it and just repeat others thoughts or just don't know how to do it.Compareing similiar cables on a low-fi system will not give you a noticable difference.Is there snake oil in the cable biz? Sure is.Is there snake oil in the car biz? Sure is.No matter what the biz,always somebody trying to relieve you of your coin.Use common sence,don't blow a fist full of franklins on cables for a system that won't ever know it.Experience,discuss,thats what we do here.So if you tell me you don't hear a difference in cables in your system,I believe you.Someone else say's they can,in their system,I believe them too.You can't paint the whole debate with a broad brush and say they don't matter.

[THX 3417]

I remember looking at the (KCS) loudspeakers behind the screen at Warner village cinema back in 1998 at the Bristol site, and to my astonishment they had what looked like thick mains cable. Now this stuff doesn’t cost much and they have meters to run from the booth down to the auditorium.

So try good ole heavy duty mains cable.

[The Naked Truth]

WilliamM2 is full of shit and hasn't provided one shread of evidence to support his stance . . . period!!!

We connected it between my Oppo digital out to my Timbre DACs digital in and it was like a revelation. The music opened up, the details were more three dimentional, much more air between instruments, it sounded similar to what a good LP does to the music.

I'm not sure I'm getting it, you claim that a cable somehow altered the flow of "0" and "1" while keeping the data intact? I don't know what you're smoking but please share it with the rest of us. Who needs to spend multi $$$ on cables when we can buy the drugs you're on? So far, other than biased, subjective opinions, your donation to this thread is.. Nothing?

I believe one site above all, it's a free site, the owner doesn't sell stuff so I trust him not to BS. That site is from and for audiophiles and even they have their lowpass BS filter set:

http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/spkcbl_e.html

[tonyb]

I believe the man said nothing in the way of altering the 0's and 1's.He simply stated he heard a difference.You don't believe him,thats all well and good,so move on.Anyone who puts all their eggs in one basket,ala,one site,is surely biased to one opinion.

BTW- most things Audio are subjective anyway.
Unfu=#$ believable...first post on a new board........

[The Naked Truth]

Wait wait wait wait wait.. You say he heard a difference without altering the data..? Think about it again please.
As for the cables, try conducting a little test, forget double testing, this one is simpler.
Take two cables, crappy 20 years old lamp cable and the most high grade audiophile cable you can put your hands on. Now try them both and start shortening them gradually. Tell me at which length they sound exactly the same. If you claim that will never happen, then I suggest you start switching all the internal cabling inside your speakers, amplifier, your mains, your in-wall power cables and seriously consider upgrading the power grid cable between your home and the nearest power transformer.

[Polk65]

I'm not sure I'm getting it, you claim that a cable somehow altered the flow of "0" and "1" while keeping the data intact? I don't know what you're smoking but please share it with the rest of us. Who needs to spend multi $$$ on cables when we can buy the drugs you're on? So far, other than biased, subjective opinions, your donation to this thread is.. Nothing?

I believe one site above all, it's a free site, the owner doesn't sell stuff so I trust him not to BS. That site is from and for audiophiles and even they have their lowpass BS filter set:

http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/spkcbl_e.html

TNT welcome to Club Polk.
tnt-audio.com (any relation?) has some great reading and a following but as with all references in this thread, they are only reading material.

Some of us have experienced a few things while others are still hitting the books. Forget the 0's and 1's and the scientific approach. As much as naysayers push their agenda it is widely known that some can hear a difference and others cannot. Example: a tuning fork.

If you are stuck in the lab with micrometers, try and find another ear that's physically identical to another. Then pierce the eardrum and do some exploratory surgery to measure the ear bones and jawbone for resonant frequencies. Finally, brain waves should be measured to insure the comparisons are accurate.

How is it biased if individuals are describing what they hear versus read?

[tonyb]

Hit the search button dude,this discussion as been beat to death many times over.I no longer have the will for long winded idiotic babble.May I suggest,as a new member,posting for the first time on an established board,to not insult the good standing members if you would like to participate in any discussion.

As for your suggestion on shortening cables,don't know if it's true and don't care.Most people use 8 ft lengths or greater in real world application.Go to any recording studio,see how much 20 yr old lamp cord they use for mastering,you'll most likely get escorted off the property.

[THX 3417]

This is like the chicken and the egg, which came first? Is there any tail, tail signs to look for when testing different bands that clam there the best of the best? Because personally I think this whole cable issue is a load of bollocks.

Hay how comes he get a welcome, what am I chopped liver.:D

[The Naked Truth]

Lets attack it from another direction then.
What are you looking for when you say "better" sound?
Do you want a perfect reproduction of the concert/studio recording, or do you want something else?
If you're looking for the latter, you want coloration and worse, go buy equalizers and a DSP (SRS?) to alter the sound to your taste.

Now, if you want the perfect reproduction, before going to the psycho/subjective stuff, let's start with what we can measure - Tonality.
Step 1: Get a pair of Sennheiser HD600 or similar earphones.
Step 2: Hook them to a decent player and listen to your favorite piece.
Step 3: Tune up your rig so that when you take the headphones off, you get the exact same sound (tonality, frequency response, stereo expansion) as your headphones.
Now, if you're still concerned with all the non-scientific buzzwords thrown in this thread like they were the words of god (not going to prove or disprove him to you, least not today), feel free to tweak some more. Cables are the last thing to make a difference, especially for money you'll be spending.

[The Naked Truth]

Hit the search button dude,this discussion as been beat to death many times over.I no longer have the will for long winded idiotic babble.May I suggest,as a new member,posting for the first time on an established board,to not insult the good standing members if you would like to participate in any discussion.

As for your suggestion on shortening cables,don't know if it's true and don't care.Most people use 8 ft lengths or greater in real world application.Go to any recording studio,see how much 20 yr old lamp cord they use for mastering,you'll most likely get escorted off the property.

Excuse me while I yawn..

[THX 3417]

It’s just hit me I bet some of these recording studios you know the small business types, I’m betting they toss out bits of cable in the dust bin, hay its worth a look you never know what you might find in the dust bin.:D

[Polk65]

Hay how comes he get a welcome, what am I chopped liver.:D

No, you smell like chopped fish. :D

Welcome aboard mate.

[tonyb]

Headphones and speakers are 2 different animals.Try again sir.You keep bringing up money,whats your idea of an expensive cable? I have a bi- wire 8 ft set for 350 clams,do you consider that expensive? Side note,list your gear so we know what and where your comming from.

[The Naked Truth]

I've just noticed something interesting about this thread.. The higher the post count of people in this forum, the more they're inclined to spend big $$ on their rig and believe in all kinds of hype.
I feel for you, oh yee of little social life..

[THX 3417]

If I won the national lottery, I still wouldn’t buy expensive loudspeaker cable no way, they can keep it common sense comes first. I here some cables can cost anywhere up to a few hundred pounds for a single metre WTF!

[tonyb]

Excuse me while I yawn..

Do what you do best pal.

[THX 3417]

No, you smell like chopped fish. :D

Welcome aboard mate.

Hmm, Thank you, fish I do like tuna fish why can you smell my tuna fish breath. :D

[tonyb]

I've just noticed something interesting about this thread.. The higher the post count of people in this forum, the more they're inclined to spend big $$ on their rig and believe in all kinds of hype.
I feel for you, oh yee of little social life..

You mean the more experience people have,the more they realize cables do matter.

[THX 3417]

I've just noticed something interesting about this thread.. The higher the post count of people in this forum, the more they're inclined to spend big $$ on their rig and believe in all kinds of hype.
I feel for you, oh yee of little social life..

That’s a loud of Bollocks mate, who told you that tissue of lies.:D

[liordra]

At this point this thread-that-never-ends, resembles a skirmish between wild dogs in the African savanna, that tries determine which is the alpha male. Not that I am against an online insult contest, as a way to make it though another day of work, but what's the reward? proving that you are top dog in the pack of the hi-fi geeks?
Is anybody here going to budge an inch? I don't think so. so what do I suggest? the most obvious thing to do. lets proceed towards mother insults. take it up a notch.

[The Naked Truth]

Headphones and speakers are 2 different animals.Try again sir.You keep bringing up money,whats your idea of an expensive cable? I have a bi- wire 8 ft set for 350 clams,do you consider that expensive? Side note,list your gear so we know what and where your comming from.

Well, I use mains cable, 4x2.5mm with ferrite beads (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrite_bead) on them to reduce interference. Dirt cheap, highly effective.

I don't do pissing contests on who's got more cash to blow on their rigs, just like I don't ask how much you might be spending in order to get sex.

[THX 3417]

I just like overhearing some silly bugger in a Hi-Fi shop spending hundreds on loudspeaker cables and thinking what a knob jockey I have an old friend who’s a teacher in electronics and he knows the difference between sensibility and stupidity.

[Polk65]

Excuse me while I yawn..

That's excusable up to the point when you realize there are tens of thousands of posts here by 45,000+ members. There would have been even more posts online if someone hadn't pressed the "any key". :rolleyes:

Coloration is nearly non-existent with most everyone here setting tone controls to flat, that is if their pre-amps even have tone controls. Again, don't dismiss what other's hear. It's all subjective.

Hmm, Thank you, fish I do like tuna fish why can you smell my tuna fish breath. :D

My auntie lived in Dorset. ;)

I've just noticed something interesting about this thread.. The higher the post count of people in this forum, the more they're inclined to spend big $$ on their rig and believe in all kinds of hype.
I feel for you, oh yee of little social life..

You can chalk that up to experience, divorce, or living single and having the shells to play with.

BTW, you're off to a great start with insulting people.

[THX 3417]

Polk65

No Kidding, lovely countryside around here. In fact it’s the rainy season now looks like British summertime came and went before it started.:D

[The Naked Truth]

Forget cables, buy THIS: http://www.referenceaudiomods.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=NOB_C37_C

Oh, and for the ultimate sound experience, stuff your ears with parsley. No, not any kind of weed, specifically Parsley. Should be fresh too. Parsley has a very special properties when interacting with incoming sound waves and stagnant sound waves inside one's ears. Don't dismiss before you try!!!

[liordra]

Forget cables, buy THIS: http://www.referenceaudiomods.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=NOB_C37_C

Oh, and for the ultimate sound experience, stuff your ears with parsley. No, not any kind of weed, specifically Parsley. Should be fresh too. Parsley has a very special properties when interacting with incoming sound waves and stagnant sound waves inside one's ears. Don't dismiss before you try!!!

should I Tabasco as well ? just for the highs?

[THX 3417]

LOL, I don’t know about stuffing my ears with parsley, I mean I get tinnitus from time to time never mind stuffing your ears with food products.:D

[Polk65]

A shot of tabasco is one tweak I hadn't thought of yet. Have you found any difference between Crystal and McIlhenny?

I seem to recollect my face drawing tight such as while sucking on a lemon and my ears constricted with a rush of blood across my face. There was a definite loss of hearing involved. Maybe this isn't such a good idea after all.

[THX 3417]

OH that is grim makes my skin crawl it does.:D

[THX 3417]

One think I have learnt steadily over the years is that active crossover frequency dividing networks makes a whole lot of difference between the, passive crossover approach. So when I get a around within the few weeks of slowly changing over from passive to active with new cable runs for the matching LCR fronts. I’d be paying more attention to affordable costs.

[The Naked Truth]

If you can afford to shell out so much on cables alone, you must get these:

http://www.audiomagic.dk/cableholders.html

[THX 3417]

I don’t know about that site some internal instinct said it looked dodgy.:(

[liordra]

A shot of tabasco is one tweak I hadn't thought of yet. Have you found any difference between Crystal and McIlhenny?

I seem to recollect my face drawing tight such as while sucking on a lemon and my ears constricted with a rush of blood across my face. There was a definite loss of hearing involved. Maybe this isn't such a good idea after all.

Nothing like a Habanero high.

[THX 3417]

LOL, We’re like a pack of hungry vultures hovering over this thread what did something die or what?:D

http://www.williambowles.info/images/vultures.jpg

[liordra]

I don’t know about that site some internal instinct said it looked dodgy.:(

The site is Legit. at the very least as quick laugh.

[THX 3417]

The site is Legit. at the very least as quick laugh.

Sorry mate, it looked dodgy and I don’t need another one of those links to crash my pc again.:(

[The Naked Truth]

With enough tabasco sauce in your system, who needs Hi-Fi? :D

http://sulcus.berkeley.edu/mcb/165_001/papers/manuscripts/_559.htmlCategory: Neurochemistry
Term Paper Code: 559

TheRelationship between Capsaicin and it's Interactions and Effects on the Activation of the Pain Pathway, the Release of B-endorphins, and the Activation of the Limbic System

[liordra]

Sorry mate, it looked dodgy and I don’t need another one of those links to crash my pc again.:(

Then you would never know the price a wooden volume knob, and the wonderful reviews it got.

[THX 3417]

No I guess I’d never know. I wonder if they use expensive golden soft toilet paper, you know if they can afford extremely expensive loudspeaker cables surly they can afford to golden soft for the bottom end of there frequency.:D

[The Naked Truth]

Why would I want or need to ruin your computer, when I can post all sorts of silly Hi-Fi mods that can ruin your bank account? ;)

[liordra]

Nothing less then 24 Karat, for a true audiophile A@##.

[THX 3417]

Why would I want or need to ruin your computer, when I can post all sorts of silly Hi-Fi mods that can ruin your bank account? ;)

Excuse me...

[shudupanddance]

Can we not just end the argument and get some powerpacs and stick em on the back of the speakers.

No speaker cable to argue about and go and eat some nice lunch.

PS What speaker cable do say B&W use inside their speakers....

There is probably a difference between speaker cables, but the best thing is to probably keep the high power cable to a minimum distance.

I'm curious in studio recording do people have big arguments as to what microphone cable to use?

[The Naked Truth]

Cables, speakers, players and amplifiers are all meaningless.
I have seen the light! Must.. resist.. temptation.. to buy...!!!

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/francktchang/resonators.html

[heiney9]

To all those non-believer types read my signature. This is the truth as far as audio appreciation is right there.

[THX 3417]

What about this snake oil I’ve been hearing about? What is snake oil got in common with loudspeaker cable?

[The Naked Truth]

To all those non-believer types read my signature. This is the truth as far as audio appreciation is right there.

Funny that this quote comes from the mouth of a manufacturer, obviously a man with a lot to gain from people spending MORE money on their rigs. :rolleyes:

[heiney9]

Funny that this quote comes from the mouth of a manufacturer, obviously a man with a lot to gain from people spending MORE money on their rigs. :rolleyes:

Nelson Pass is a great guy and has a true passion for audio and audio reproduction. Ever talked with him..........doubt it beacuse you wouldn't have said what you did. He's helped more DIY people and given away his time and effort and knowledge for free. Making money is not his top priority. What an ignorant remark you made.

Certainly there are manufacturers out there who's #1 goal is to seperate you from your money. But, Nelson Pass isn't one of those. Sure he's in business to make money but he's contributed more to audio (with no strings attached) over the past 20 years than many others and that just happens to allow hjim to make a living.

H9

[THX 3417]

Funny that this quote comes from the mouth of a manufacturer, obviously a man with a lot to gain from people spending MORE money on their rigs. :rolleyes:

I believe the term is called milking.:(

[shack]

One of the nicer features of this forum is the ignore list. It allows one to view a thread without having to wade through a lot of useless drivel. My list JUST got longer.

[THX 3417]

Touché I guess this one of those threads that doesn’t go down too well at the local pub then?:D

[The Naked Truth]

Nelson Pass is a great guy and has a true passion for audio and audio reproduction. Ever talked with him..........doubt it beacuse you wouldn't have said what you did. He's helped more DIY people and given away his time and effort and knowledge for free. Making money is not his top priority. What an ignorant remark you made.

Certainly there are manufacturers out there who's #1 goal is to seperate you from your money. But, Nelson Pass isn't one of those. Sure he's in business to make money but he's contributed more to audio (with no strings attached) over the past 20 years than many others and that just happens to allow hjim to make a living.

H9
While I accept what you said about him as a person, I still can't accept this quote. If you go to a concert and later buy the recording, most people would strive to get an authentic reproduction. Once you go for anything different or beyond what the sound engineers microphones picked and he mixed, you're going towards subjective taste and deviate from the original. Either way, both can be achieved without fancy cables, pure wood know, cable holders or resonators.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wharfedale_(company)#History
founded in 1932 by Gilbert Briggs, and became one of Britain's leading manufacturers of audiophile equipment, particularly loudspeakers. In addition to winning awards by groups such as the Bradford Radio Society, mass public testing at Carnegie Hall proved Wharfedale speakers indistinguishable from live music.
I bet he used fancy cables to achieve that...:rolleyes:

[reeltrouble1]

Once again we are saved by the newb. Oh, how could we have been so wrong all these years, more years than they have even been alive in many cases, we are so wrong, so wrong, so wrong, I am here to save you says the newb, I have the word, the word is my law, the word that shines above all other words........................

New Guy??? Nemo??? or Jesus Christ His Self..........

Here is the word it is simple

My experience tell me Cables Matter.

Now go get that data fellows and keep digging or better yet just go back to you regular program.


So as the dust settles on yet another cable thread
what will William and his newly found companion's do.........

William: I have nothing to prove

liandro: But the test the test, the AB/X test

William: I have nothing to prove

liandro: But the test the test, they do not understand the test

William: I have nothing to prove, liandro do not say that again

liandro: But the data, the data......

William: I told you, say that again and I am going to hook two electrodes
to your gonads and turn them and your eyeballs into jelly

liandro: But the t.................

William: That does it.............

So as Willaim looks down at liandro's charred body and oozing eyeballs, he shakes his head and shrugs his shoulders, then he notices a paper still clutched between liandro's hand, he can faintly make out the words.........

THE TEST WAS WRONG CABLES MATTER

So where will this band head next saving audiophoole's from their self, one rig at a time..............or will this be the first of the five year cable debates as the Oralce has foretold.........

I dunno.

RT1

[The Naked Truth]

One of the nicer features of this forum is the ignore list. It allows one to view a thread without having to wade through a lot of useless drivel. My list JUST got longer.

Reminds me of too many bigots who went down in history, you're in a "good" crowd.. :rolleyes:

[The Naked Truth]

Once again we are saved by the newb. Oh, how could we have been so wrong all these years, more years than they have even been alive in many cases, we are so wrong, so wrong, so wrong, I am here to save you says the newb, I have the word, the word is my law, the word that shines above all other words........................

And I was almost certain you were quoting something about the Catholic Church vs. Galileo Galilei.
You're right ofcorse, the 'n00b' was wrong, he went ahead to prove the earth wasn't flat and fell off the edge. Think before you call someone newb, some of us have already forgotten more than you'll ever learn.

edit: And tell Gilbert Briggs he should have used better cables!

[Polk65]

Keep up your attitude and more will have forgotten you by the end of the day. That's a fact jack.

[The Naked Truth]

Keep up your attitude and more will have forgotten you by the end of the day. That's a fact jack.

Truth hurts, I know. Seen it all over the bible, do you know yours?

[reeltrouble1]

Well now everything was fine till you had to go and throw that tag line and hurt poor RT1's feelings..............

Newb--That is our Protocol not nOOb.

Ever consider changing your S/N to Nemo, as you are apparently the ONE, or perhaps go in another direction with maybe some other Anti-Hero thing to join the family. hmmm......well it is just off the top of my head, but Farts on Self might work for you.

Have a nice day.

I have to go now, afterall it is not an audio day, there a ceremony I need to attend.

RT1

[The Naked Truth]

So, now that you have nothing smart to say, you go for personal attacks?
That's so mature.. You're right, cables make a difference, in color, appearance, bank account but not SOUND. Unless they sound different when you drop them.

Come back when you've grown up, Sheesh...


edit: Try putting some resonators in your toilet bowl, you'll strain less and get a much wider sound stage.

[wingnut4772]

As one of the high post count people who believe that cables matter I will also say this: I don't really think digital cables matter.... for audio purposes anyway. Maybe HDMI and video but I have never heard a difference between one digital cable and another.

[The Naked Truth]

Video and audio signals are fundamentally different. If you want to test how interference affects a digital (stereo PCM) connection:

Replace coaxial digital cable with plain el-cheapo audio RCA. Sound should be there, everything normal. Now turn on a Fluorescent lamp nearby (the old kind with starters, ones that usually blink once or twice before giving stable light) and you'll notice your sound disappearing with every blink. The way it works, if the data is corrupted, you'll hear nothing. Cheap cable, expensive cable, if you're getting sound, it's a good cable.

[The Naked Truth]

I must add that when speaking about optical interconnects, there's a whole voodoo going about jitter. Which as some witchdoctors claim can be corrected by using green maker on the outer edge of your CDs.:rolleyes:

[RuSsMaN]

Blah blah blah.