Lsi sETup, not performing well

[cokewithvanilla]

I bought a 5.0 setup consisting of LSi25's, LSiC,LSiFX. I have not purchased a subwoofer yet, but when I was testing the speakers, I was very disappointed.

I listened to the movie Sahara on someone’s HT system, which uses OM-9's, some old Boston acoustic rears and their TV's speakers as the center channel. During the opening scene when the mortars were hitting the ship I could hear the clang, and when it rattled the gold coins, I would hear the gold coins... on these polks, I hear none of this... everything is muted. I hear a standard boom. I have an old set of bad sony speakers that are comparable to these polks.... what is wrong?

I had intended to finish this system out with another set of LSiFX and a PSW1000.... but now I have no idea what to do... from all appearances... these speakers Suck!

could this have to do with the receiver I am using?

[janmike]

First of all, the speakers do not suck. What are you driving the speakers with. Most people here find that you will need a minimum of 200wpc for the LSi series speakers to sound decent.

I use LSi9's, LSiC & LSi/FX with a Proceed AMP5 (250wpc) and they sound great.

[lanion]

Is it possible the speakers are setup for biwiring and you are using standard wire? (i.e. no bridge terminals on the back of the binding posts) This would mean no high frequency noise so no clangs or change. Even if the speakers sucked (which they don't!) you should be hearing things like that.

[lanion]

Even on my 50wpc low current DPR-1001 the LSi speakers sounded good (they sounded a lot better when I got the Outlaw 7125 though). Something is wrong.

[cfrizz]

Welcome Coke.

What you are finding out is that the LSI series are 4ohm speakers and require LOTS of power to sound good.

If your receiver has preamp outputs start checking Audiogon for separate 5 channel amplification of no less than 200wpc.

Outlaw Audio, Rotel, Sunfire, Parasound, Nad, Adcom are some good brands of amplification.

Until you get the amp, be careful with the volume. You run the risk of putting the receiver into protect mode or harming your new speakers.

[cfrizz]

Lanion, Coke is talking about picking up small audible details that often get left out when speakers are driven by a receiver. It is especially true of hard to drive speakers like the LSI's. But it is also true of 8ohm speakers.

Until I got a 205wpc Parasound amp, I didn't know I was missing so many small details in the music! I was hearing things in music I had listened to for years that I just didn't know was there.

He needs more power, plain & simple.

Even on my 50wpc low current DPR-1001 the LSi speakers sounded good (they sounded a lot better when I got the Outlaw 7125 though). Something is wrong.

[wingnut4772]

I don't think he has a power issue. I think he has a set up issue. he says he is not hearing any of the high details. Something is amiss.

[hoosier21]

these are new right, you will need to let them break in for many hours till they sound the best.

These are good speakers, don't give up on them yet.

[lanion]

If he heard the details on a setup using a TV as a center channel, I think there is more to it than power. Anyway, I have not seen Sahara, so I don't know whether those sounds are subtle or if all the high-end is missing.

Lanion, Coke is talking about picking up small audible details that often get left out when speakers are driven by a receiver. It is especially true of hard to drive speakers like the LSI's. But it is also true of 8ohm speakers.

Until I got a 205wpc Parasound amp, I didn't know I was missing so many small details in the music! I was hearing things in music I had listened to for years that I just didn't know was there.

He needs more power, plain & simple.

[lanion]

Other potential Setup problems: make sure you DVD player is outputting Dolby Digital 5.1 or DTS and not 2 Channel LPCM. Your reciever should be set to crossover the LSiC and the LSiFX speakers at 80hz and set your Left and Right to Large and set Subwoofer = (L+R or 'Use Mains' or 'none' if no option like that is given).

[Midnite Mick]

I would suggest you first put your ear up against the tweeter and see if you hear anything. I agree with others in that if you are missing sound something is wrong not necessarily related to power. Things may not be as forward and clear but you still should hear something.

Mike

[dane_peterson]

Did you remove the gold jumpers? If so, are you bi-wiring?

[Pepi28]

Is it possible the speakers are setup for biwiring and you are using standard wire? (i.e. no bridge terminals on the back of the binding posts) This would mean no high frequency noise so no clangs or change. Even if the speakers sucked (which they don't!) you should be hearing things like that.

I agree with lanion, I think he has the bridge disconnected and only wired the bottom terminals. Coke you should make sure that if you are wired up using only two wired per speaker then there should be a jumper going from red to red and black to black. I f not you will be missing all of the highs because they are not being sent to the tweeters. Just a thought of course.

[rskarvan]

Polk doesn't make a bad speaker. Some are better than others. But, all are pretty good.

[danger boy]

also check the settings in your receiver.. and make sure that the treble isn't turned down to -8 or something like that... both bass and treble should be set to 0

It sounds like to me as other's have mentioned.. that the jumpers may be removed.. put the jumpers back or make a pair of jumpers using some 14 guage speaker wire.

[cokewithvanilla]

Sorry if i disturbed you, before reading anything else, I want to clarify... these speakers do not suck! I listened to them in the store, and liked them, so I bought them. But from all appearances the ones I have at my home, either suck, or my equipment sucks. I believe it to be the amp. You will laugh if I tell you what it is.... here goes nothing...

Sony STR-DE935... 5+ years old, 500 watt (so it must be something like 150 because its a sony)

They are not biwired, but they have the factory installed gold connector in place.

4 ohm.. that has to be some of it, I forgot to switch my receiver from 8 to 4 when I installed these. I just changed it and noticed a difference.

The receiver has been in protect mode for 3 years now... no idea why.

You guys might be right on with the power…

These LSI25's actually are not new, they were a display model at tweeters, they are going out of business and I got them for a steal.... 1250. (all other's are new though)

Gold plates are set between both the top and the bottom connectors. Tops have the wire going to them... sound is coming out of the tweeters.

Oh, the bass is so boomy… how do I make it more defined?

[cokewithvanilla]

Ok, another one of the problems is that the BOOM on an explosion is muted or boomy, the real sound is not heard, just a rumble.

Also, I would like to connected these speakers to my LFE out since I do not have a sub as of yet, but how do I know if my LFE out is unfiltered?

My receiver has Bass, Mid, and Treb settings in HZ as well as decibels... what do I do to the HZ?

[lanion]

"The receiver has been in protect mode for 3 years now... no idea why."



That sounds like a major problem with your reciever. I don't think it should ever be 'stuck' in protect mode. Check your reciever's documenation on what that could possibly mean.

[lanion]

Mess with your reciever's bass management settings and see if there is a way to direct the LFE signal to your main speakers. What model reciever do you have?

[cokewithvanilla]

Sony STR-DE935

Let me correct what I was saying... I changed the Ohm settings and I now am playing Sahara, I hear the highs and mids, and bass... but everything sounds like I am hearing it through a pillow. Nothing is defined, its all muffled, and just plain bad sounding.

[lanion]

When you change it to the 4 ohm setting what you are essentially doing is telling the reciever to hold back so as not to damage anything.

At this point I might jump on the 'you need better amplification' bandwagon. Cheapest way to go that rout is to get a a cheap reciever with A/V outs that you can plug into a seperate amplifier. The Harman Kardon alone will probobly sound better than your Sony.

www.harmanaudio.com sells cheap recievers with audio-outs that you can connect to a multichannel amp from Outlaw, Adcom, etc...


Outlaw has a nice return policy -- you can try out their products for 30 days risk free (minus ~$50 to ship everything back). It may be a bit of a bummer that expensive speakers need expensive amplification, but that's the way it goes with 4-ohm speakers.

Also I have found that taking the speaker grills off the center channel / mains opens the sound up a little bit. It might help a little.

[cokewithvanilla]

I plan on getting either a Pioneer Elite top end model, or an Itegra one from the top, or maybe a Denon 3806(7) 4806(7)

But what can I do until then?

[danger boy]

on the LSi25's.. with it's powered sub's... turn the volume knob down to about 9 0'clock to lessed the bass output.. fiddle around with that knob till you get just a hit of bass... and dial it up if needed to 10 o'clock or 11 o'clock. sounds like it's cranked up way to high... and that's why it's boomy.

[Midnite Mick]

Could be a placement issue as well. If they are in corners try to pull them forward and away from the side walls. I had my 15's well into the room.

Mike

[hoosier21]

is your receiver set to subwoofer off?

The rest of your problems rest with the Sony, underpowered.

[lanion]

Yes, definately try turning down the active-subs on your LSi25 speakers.

Your Sony Reciever might be able to put out a decent amount of power into 2 channels (but not all 5). Before you get your Elite reciever you could try just running your LSi25s in stereo mode and you might get a signifigant audio quality boost.

[cokewithvanilla]

Its funny that you mention that, because when I listen to music (2 channel) it sounds pretty good.

What about connecting the LSI25 subs through the LFE output??? I don't want to hurt them... but I hear that most LEF outs are filtered.... why would polk want them unfiltered... and is mine filtered or unfiltered... how can I tell?

[lanion]

I just read up on the LSi25 inputs. So you could use a Y-splitter to connect the LFE-output of your Reciever to the Sub-in on your LSi25 (or chain them as is shown in the manual). The LFE channel is only going to contain low frequency information, so there isn't really any reason for there to be a filter on the speaker. My suggestion is to set L+R speakers to full and LFE output going to the L+R speakers via a normal audio interconnect. In this setup the LSi25 speakers will play all the L+R information sent to them as well as all the LFE information sent to them.

Use figure 7 from the LSi25 manual for LFE connections (http://www.polkaudio.com/downloads/manuals/home/LSi25Manual.pdf)

And in figure 8 it looks like you should remove the jumpers if you are going to use the RCA connectors. In that case you might want to set your L+R speakers to Small and cross them over at 80hz or something (this would be set up in your Sony Reciever's settings). Someone with LSi25s should comment on this.

[cokewithvanilla]

I just set them up sort of like that, since both speakers have LFE in, and my receiver has two LFE outs... I plugged them both into a LFE out. No difference in sound. I also turned the sub's down a lot

[lanion]

Alright, then you should remove the jumpers, set your speakers to small, turn the LFE-output to on, and adjust the crossover until things sound best to you. (60hz or 80hz would be best, I would think).

[cokewithvanilla]

Thats what I mean, thats what I did. I removed the jumpers, and took 2 RCA cables connected them to each of the LFE ins on the speakers, and then connected the other side to the 2 LFE outs on the receiver...

How do you change the crossover?

[lanion]

Does your Sony reciever have an OSD (on screen display) that you can access via the remote? There should be an easy-to navigate menue if you can open that. You will have to have some video-out going from your reciever to your TV, naturally (in some cases this cannot be a component connection for the OSD).

[cokewithvanilla]

yes, it has a display, however, I have been messing with it for a while to no avail. I need to find the remote... the remote has a 1.5 inch lcd or something, maybe there are more settings on that.

what is the frequency knob on the back of the LSI's for?

[lanion]

That frequency knob sets the crossover point for the built in subwoofer. i.e. if you set it to 80hz, the subwoofer will not try to play anything above 80hz.

[cokewithvanilla]

Power must be an issue, if I set my receiver to play only the Center, and the Fronts, it sounds ok (still no sound depth), but when I put it on 5.1 the sound is noticeably worse, and quieter.

Oh, another question... should I go with a PSW1000, or should I try something like M&K?

[lanion]

For bang for your buck subwoofers everyone will tell you to buy an SVS or a HSU (or an outlaw-- very similar to Hsu).

www.svsound.com
or
www.hsuresearch.com
or
www.outlawaudio.com

[cokewithvanilla]

How do Polk's Subs rate with SVS's? Would I get a much better sub from SVS than the PSW1000?

Are there any reasonably priced 7 channel amps around?

[lanion]

Polk has not put out a good sub in a long time. They have some promising subs on the horizon, but there is no release date in site.

the PSW1000 only goes down to 30hz, which is not worth $1000 for a home theatre sub. Spending $1,000 at SVS or at HSU will get you a *FAR* better HT sub than the PSW1000. The VTF-MK3 sub is on sale now for $620 which is an excellent deal.

Here is a thread where someone has ranked a lot of subwoofers : http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=768150 right now it looks like HSU is offering the best subwoofer / $$ with the VTF3-mk3 and the VTF3-ho. However those are really ugly (imo) with the turbochargers.

[DesertPilot]

I use my POLK LSi series for both critical SACD music and Home Theater. I've gone through a number of speaker systems over the years and LSi is simply the best - especially given the price. Having said that - they need power (I am using an Outlaw Amp - 300WPC at 4 Ohms). ...and, of course, quality source material (ie, DVD/SACD player). I can't imagine them not sounding absolutely awesome.

marcus

[cokewithvanilla]

Maybe when I get an amp they will sound good... but right now they sound terrible

[lanion]

http://cgi.ebay.com/Outlaw-Audio-7100-7-Channel-Amplifier-700-Watts_W0QQitemZ130117364547QQihZ003QQcategoryZ1497 3QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

This amp will put about 160watts into 4ohms with all channels driven. Very respectable way to get started.

So your Sony is rated at 100watts per channel, but not at all channels driven. With all 5 channels driven you are probobly getting about 30watts/channel (I made that number up, but that is about how much power most "100Watt" recievers put out if they don't list power "all channels driven, 20hz-20khz".)

[Sherardp]

I would reset the Sony AVR, that way everything goes back to default. Check all your wiring, etc. Then work from there. I've seen allot of good tips here to help you get all setup. As the guys said here you're going to need power to drive the LSi series. Perhaps you should also think about a new AVR, perhaps a STRDG1000 if you wanna stick with Sony + Power Amplification. Your house should be on fire with the LSis in there. If you cant get it right, invite one of the guys on the boards over to help you and have lots of beer onhand. I hope you get it sounding good in there. Enjoy

[VXR8]

I agree with lanion, I think he has the bridge disconnected and only wired the bottom terminals. Coke you should make sure that if you are wired up using only two wired per speaker then there should be a jumper going from red to red and black to black. I f not you will be missing all of the highs because they are not being sent to the tweeters. Just a thought of course.

Just on that, is there a photo of what you are saying here? If I understand correctly, what you are saying is that when you bi-wire, you only jump the wire at the terminals at the rear of the speaker and not run a double length from the amp / AVR? If you do run a double length, does that confuse the amp / AVR to think there are 2 sets of speakers hooked up and change the impedance?

Thanks in advance.

[Refefer]

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampsmult&1183203075

Pick up this baby. 200 wpc into 5 channels will do the trick, for a decent price.

Adcom's have plenty of juice to drive what you need.

[lanion]

Just on that, is there a photo of what you are saying here? If I understand correctly, what you are saying is that when you bi-wire, you only jump the wire at the terminals at the rear of the speaker and not run a double length from the amp / AVR? If you do run a double length, does that confuse the amp / AVR to think there are 2 sets of speakers hooked up and change the impedance?

Thanks in advance.


No, you misunderstood. Biwiring should have two runs of cables or special Bi-wire cable with 2 terminals on one end and 4 on the other end.

For the LSi25 this turns out to not really matter, since the High Freq terminal drives everything above ~80hz and the lower terminals only drive the subwoofer. It is for this reason that you cannot bi-amp the Lsi25 (it already is biamped).

[cokewithvanilla]

If I were to buy say.. the Harmon Kardon AVR-645, and a 2 channel Adcom GFA-555... powering the LSi's with the Adcom, could the HK hold up the rest of the setup (2 sets of LSiFX, LSiC, and a good woofer, maybe a HSU)? And I mean at a good power... because these Lsi's sound horrible... and I would hate to waste my money on a receiver that cannot handle these speakers and get the same results.

If so, are HK's any good?

[cokewithvanilla]

oh... GFA-555 or GFA-555II .... it seems like they both have different ups and different downs, which one has more ups? or better ups? does it matter?

[askinquestions]

Wanted to see if you ever upgraded, and how things sounded.

[AndyGwis]

Yes, did you figure out what ailed you?

If I were you, Coke, I would forego the 2 channel amp with a 645 and get something like the 245 with a 5 channel amp. Something that has high current and good power to 4 ohms.

[MGPK]

If your system sounds better in 2 channel mode than in 5.1, I would suggest checking out your night mode or dynamic compression feature in your receiver. Some receivers will compress only in Dolby Digital and some compress in all DSP modes. I think yours is the former.

[cfrizz]

I doubt we will ever know. His last look on here was 6-1-2007.

[Monster Jam]

Yeah....went from cokewithvanilla to cokezero.

Couldn't resist.

[Yashu]

my guess is not having them wired correctly. Some people might not know what to do with bi-wirable speakers... when to use it, how, the jumpers, and such...

[Grimster74]

Without a doubt, if your looking to bring some life to those speakers you need to start throwing some serious power to them using a dedicated amp. The older receivers may have a 4/8 ohm switch on the back of them but they do not have the reserved power to drive them 4 ohm speakers for a long period of time before going into protect mode. Look for used amps on Audiogon, FS thread on the Polk Forum or the likes of Rotel, Outlaw, etc. What ever you do, good luck.

[cfrizz]

Yup from speakers to power this series requires quite a bit of money invested in order to get the best out of it.

The poor regular people come on here and find that out. And as we know most regular people aren't interested in putting out that kind of money.

I'll bet you he dumped the speakers.

[fatchowmein]

I'll bet you he dumped the speakers.

Dump LSi25's, C, and FX??? What????

Say it isn't so, Cathy!

[frreo1]

I think you need a new receiver, or preamp/power amp combination that delivers reasonable power at 4 ohms. I have 4 LSI 15's two LSI 7's one LSI C and a PSW 1000 connected to a Sony DA 9000ES (200 watts), and the sound is nothing short of incredible.

When I first got them, I had a 100WPC Yamaha that just did not cut the mustard. After getting the 9000ES, no longer a problem.

When listening in 2 channel only, I connect two of the LSI 15s to a 60 WPC Tube amp (a HK Citation II that has been overhauled to use 5687/7044/7119 front end, and KT-88 output), and that delivers a "you are there" at 60 watts.

So, the speakers are not the issue.

By the way, would stay away from any receiver that is not designed to properly handle 4 ohm loads (which are most of them).

[askinquestions]

I know since getting my 25's, seems like my bank acct. has been dwindling. Upgrade this, get that, good thing I don't have kids or they'd be eating alpo..

[Yashu]

haha... I know the feeling, and so does my wallet... every positive change reveals a flaw somewhere else in the chain, it seems.

[aaharvel]

Sony str-935. I had one an audio-lifetime ago. And that's your problem. Get a new receiver C.W.V. You have great speakers, I'm envious. Welcome to club polk.

edit- H/K's have a better shot of driving an LSI setup more so than any other mainstream audio company - imo. Pass on the avr-645, and get an avr-7300. Chances are, an external amp might not even be necessary.

[cheddar]

"The receiver has been in protect mode for 3 years now... no idea why."



That sounds like a major problem with your reciever. I don't think it should ever be 'stuck' in protect mode. Check your reciever's documenation on what that could possibly mean.

It's pretty amazing that through all the above recommendations, the OP didn't seem to address this issue first. I certainly wouldn't want to mess with an expensive LSi setup with any amplification stuck and possibly malfunctioning in protect mode. Seems like asking for trouble...do you smell something burning?