You can see the SDA effect with this song

[Deadof_knight]

OK if your a rocker then you will have ZZ top Eliminator album goto track 7 "thug" turn it up fairly loud and a couple notches on the bass as well and you can see the drivers acting independently course I like the song as well ..... then listen to "tv dinners track 8" oh man does it sound good and you get a visual as well ....... haven a few beers relaxing going through all my ZZ top album right now ......:D

[avguytx]

Damn, all I have is Greatest Hits. Somewhere in the past, it was ganked! Man I would love to hear that album. I'll have to look for it the next time at the store.

[Deadof_knight]

Hell yeah the greatest hits albums is awesome !! I still need legrange cd

[Lasareath]

What is a "legrange cd" ?

[Polk65]

Instead of using bass control it would be better to dial it to '0' or flat and turn up the power. Listening with the bass turned up can bottom out mid-woofers and damage them. Watching drivers can get addicting but they are meant to be heard. :D

[read-alot]

Hell yeah the greatest hits albums is awesome !! I still need legrange cd

Tres Hombres


ZZ Top spoken here.

[Deadof_knight]

Allright there Polk , I assummed moderation as your guide...... but thanks for the advise Im sure someone out there definetely needs to know that ..... oops there I am assumming again.


Tres Hombres ...yea thats it !

[Polk65]

Yeah.. yeah.. A few times I hit the power button the next day and forgot to dial the bass down.

[C J T]

Eliminator CD sounds amazing. Before compression became the norm. The Greatest Hits does not sound as good, and I agree, Thug and TV Dinners are great tunes..

I know there is another thread on this but I really hope they solve this compression thing.

I just picked up the new Silversun Pickups album. Love the song "Lazy Eye" but the CD is so bloody loud. And once ripped to my Ipod, it is unlistenable.

And they wonder why CD sales are down? I would be buying far more if they did not sound like crap. Might as well just download it.

The new Linkin Park album is a bloody masterpiece. Why make it sound like crap?

[F1nut]

Tone controls are for amateurs.

Get ZZ Top's Chrome, Smoke and BBQ.

[reeltrouble1]

Ok I will.

RT1

[Deadof_knight]

well being that I'm out of town and have nothing to do I will have to search for this treasure of a cd , and when I install my 18''s I won't use the bass knob anymore

[F1nut]

You wouldn't know real bass if you heard it.

[VR3]

If you need a subwoofer for rock music on the 1.2tl - something is wrong.

[Lasareath]

If you need a subwoofer for rock music on the 1.2tl - something is wrong.

I have 1.2TL's and if I play the beach boys there's hardly any bass, So I turn on my Sunfire Sub.

If I play Bjork or Pink Floyd or anything that was recorded in the past 10 years the bass is phenomenal!

It all depends what you are playing, I guess the Beach boys are considered "Rock" ?

Should I consider that something is wrong when playing a recording that has hardly any bass?

Lasareath

[F1nut]

That's an interesting point. If there's a lack of bass with a recording without using a sub and you turn on your sub and now have bass, just where the eff is the bass coming from? You certainly can't make bass that isn't there, so by adding the sub into the mix, the only thing I can think of is that it's somehow overemphasizing the upper bass, which means you still don't really have any low bass from the recording.

[Lasareath]

That's a good point, I guess @ the next Polkfest we should bring along some test equipment and see what is exactly happening. But I think that you are on to something.

To me I think what's happening is that my Sub is using it's 2700 watt amp and producing more bass than actually was intended to be there in the first place.

Some music it sounds good with and some it's just overkill. Last night I was playing some Beyonce and the two following songs have way too much bass IMHO. With just the 1.2TL's and my Carver's @ 30 Volume it was deafening.

Burn these to CD and try it for yourselves:

http://38.161.195.8/Beyonce-ring_the_alarm.mp3

http://38.161.195.8/Beyonce-upgrade_u.mp3


Sal

[heiney9]

......nm

[PolkThug]

My Head's in Mississippi. The Polk 15's love this one.

[honda cber]

You certainly can't make bass that isn't there, so by adding the sub into the mix, the only thing I can think of is that it's somehow overemphasizing the upper bass, which means you still don't really have any low bass from the recording.

but it *is* there. especially on analogue recordings. frequency roll off... the proper boosting (by turning up a sub that is properly crossed-over for use with large speakers, for example) will make these frequencies audible. try it. i would guess that 20-30% of my vinyl collection has a very soft bass curve, and a little subwoofer output makes them sound great. the bass drum in an orchestra hit, the rumble of jack bruce's three or four marshall stacks, or the bass pedals on jimmy smith's organ... having been a musician for over 15 years who lived with and lugged a B3 and leslie around for four years--- you better believe a hammond is capable of thick, low bass that will shake the doors...

i suppose it is a matter of personal taste.

i will point out that i loathe most of the more recent cd recordings of popular music (as mentioned recently), and that the cd that one would get from my modest home studio would not be nearly as loud and distorted as any of those mainstream release. remember that not all labels destroy their music!!

a

[read-alot]

Last night I was playing some Beyonce and the two following songs have way too much bass IMHO. With just the 1.2TL's and my Carver's @ 30 Volume it was deafening.

Burn these to CD and try it for yourselves:

http://38.161.195.8/Beyonce-ring_the_alarm.mp3

http://38.161.195.8/Beyonce-upgrade_u.mp3


Sal

I can't believe you would have this post in a thread about ZZ Top.

Who the hell am I trying to fool of course I do.

[Gary Batson]

Back in the analog days, Everything had to be compressed to be put on an LP or tape. And the bass went along with it. I almost always have to add bass to older recordings that haven't been remixed. I don't like tone controls either but sometimes you just gotta.

[Lasareath]

I can't believe you would have this post in a thread about ZZ Top.

Why can't you believe it?, Your ZZ top post turned into a post about not enough bass. There's only 4 posts about ZZ top and 16 about bass and tone controls.

I think that my post makes perfect sense when people talk about lack of bass or too much bass.

But, if you still don't believe it!, Read it over and over a few dozens of time and maybe you'll start to believe that I posted it!

Las


Who the hell am I trying to fool of course I do.

And what does this mean?, Did you read it back to yourself before you hit Sumbit reply?

[F1nut]

but it *is* there. especially on analogue recordings. frequency roll off...


Frequency roll off on the source material would mean that the info isn't there.

[Lasareath]

Frequency roll off on the source material would mean that the info isn't there.

Jesse,

Couldn't the 20HZ material be recorded at 50% less volume than the 100HZ material in a particullar song?

If so, I would say that a sub that has a 400 Watt Amp would produce the 20HZ information at a certain Volume and the 2700 Watt Sub would produce it louder.

Or I'm Crazy?

Sal

[read-alot]

And what does this mean?, Did you read it back to yourself before you hit Sumbit reply?

It just means that Hell will Freeze before Beyonce gets played on my Polks.

[Deadof_knight]

haha I used the bass knob turned up by +6 on my denon 3300 and started this whole mess jeashhhhh been interesting reading...thats for sure old rock is missing alot of bass so I adds it back in and Im good with that . new recordings starting back when madonna came into town bass has been over done with everyones recordings, rock pop you name it and dont even get me started on hip hop recordings........JMHO

[Gary Batson]

I think the thread was about pumping up the bass for visual effect with, Umm,,,I think it was ZZ top TVdinners and Beer. I'm not sure. I just remember something about beer. I think I'll have one now. Or was it just about bass and Beachboys and beer. Or maybe just beer. Maybe it's a thread about beer!!! And what is Beyonce???

[Deadof_knight]

HAHAHAA yup it was about Beer I think toooo Beyonce = BOOOTY= bass hers has got some bass allright damn!

[F1nut]

Sal, There really isn't much, other than the organ, in music that goes below 30Hz. As for the rest, I don't know, I'm just thinking out loud here.

[F1nut]

I used the bass knob turned up by +6 on my denon 3300

No better way than that to damage your speakers.

[Lasareath]

Sal, There really isn't much, other than the organ, in music that goes below 30Hz. As for the rest, I don't know, I'm just thinking out loud here.

20HZ & 100HZ were just examples, it could have been 200HZ & 80HZ.

[Lasareath]

It just means that Hell will Freeze before Beyonce gets played on my Polks.

I'm a very open person musically, I will play anything once, And if I like the way it sounds I will play it again.

I don't steer away from certain music genres just because they have certain labels or stereotypes.

I let my ears be prejudicial not my mind or other people's views!

Lasareath

[F1nut]

20HZ & 100HZ were just examples, it could have been 200HZ & 80HZ.

I knew that. ;)

[honda cber]

Frequency roll off on the source material would mean that the info isn't there.

that is just not the case...

for example, turn a subwoofer on without any other speakers. that sub will have a crossover slope of (probably) 12dB/octave (maybe more steep or less steep). but as you would clearly be able to hear, just because the crossover point is set at, say, 60hz, does not mean that nothing above 60hz will be reproduced. i am no mathematician, but i promise that with a 12dB/octave LPF at 60hz there is A LOT of info above the crossover point that is being produced. of course, you already knew that, and i am not intending to be insulting in any way. recordings are the same way, and yes, there is LOTS of sub 30hz stuff happening even in my meager studio, much less ones with $5000 mics and multi-million $ consoles. with vinyl in particular, recordings containing lots of low frequency info were ROUTINELY pressed with an attenuated low end, both to reduce distortion and to literally keep the reproduction styli from jumping the groove.

as i said, i intend this post to be argumentative, not condescending... i can site sources for my argument if you need them--- i have a small library of how-to's for recording and advanced recording techniques and "tricks" (you know, the pop-music-follow-this-formula book)...

a

[jdhdiggs]

Jesse,

Couldn't the 20HZ material be recorded at 50% less volume than the 100HZ material in a particullar song?

If so, I would say that a sub that has a 400 Watt Amp would produce the 20HZ information at a certain Volume and the 2700 Watt Sub would produce it louder.

Or I'm Crazy?

Sal

Both: You're not always using the full 2,700W all the time. Most of the time a sub will only be pulling 20-40W on music so you shouldn't be seeing that much of a bass boost if everything is setup correctly. If it isn't setup correctly, or you're using HT content, then you'd notice a difference.

Honda:

If the bass isn't on the recording and you add a sub and the bass increases, something is seriously wrong with your setup. You should only output what is input and if no bass is input, no bass should be output.

If your saying the info is there, but muted for other reasons and your just correcting the recording engineers eff up then I get ya.

[honda cber]

the information *is* there, in most cases, though the equalization curve used in recording/mastering/printing may all but lose it below the noise floor (i.e. inaudible)...

i am sure no one here really thinks that a cd has NO EQ anywhere in the production process. even benchmark, holy-grail equipment (like neve channel strips an neumann mics) have less than "flat" frequency response, and some of those pieces have MARKED coloration. to oversimplify, a given recording media displays its full-band frequency response for a recorded signal, until the signal, or any part of it, falls below the noise floor of the medium. the digital noise floor is very low, if theoretically nonexistent-- but that doesnt account for noise in the studio, the studio's electronics or a/c, etc., etc...

the RIAA curve used for cutting vinyl has very attenuated bass, and a pretty well boosted high-end to boot. this reduces distortion, lengthens play time, and gives better s/n ratio. the theory behind this works somewhat like dolby NR--- the "negative" of the eq is applied to the reproduced signal (playback), thus theoretically "ending up" as the recording was mastered. unfortunately, there are flaws in the theory, mostly variation from record mfr's to each other and from one stereo to the next. yet another reason to buy an adjustable phono preamp.

to sum up this boring novel with my opinion:

"flat" reproduction may not be exactly the same as accurate reproduction, and there are countless factors which play in to that equation.


YMMV, and flame away.

a

p.s. apologies for any sort of thread hijack.

[Deadof_knight]

Zz Top sounds better with some bass added back in. Hey there F1 I was using my head while doing this, ZZ doesnt have much bass in that album so theres not much to worry about unless you turn the volume knob hmmm all the way up and hit the play button....... God knows you wouldnt do that sooooo hey chill there I would no way put the ole 1.2's in harms way I assure you !!!

[F1nut]

Ok, so the lowest note on a piano is 26-27Hz, which isn't used very often. What else besides an organ drops down below 30Hz on a regular basis?

Now, the 1.2TL's are clean down to 27Hz and the -3db is 10Hz. If you're not hearing bass from those speakers, it isn't there or the rest of your gear is lacking. My point, again, is that by adding a sub all you are doing is boosting the upper bass, which makes it seem like you have more.




DofK, whew I feel better now.

[Gary Batson]

SYNTHESISORS, SYNTHESISORS, SYNTHESISORS:rolleyes:

[Lasareath]

Cannons and Gongs!

[zingo]

So... how about those SDAs?

[F1nut]

SYNTHESISORS? Who the eff uses them anymore? :rolleyes:

I don't know about you, Sal, but the cannons in the 1812 shake the walls here without a sub. :)

[honda cber]

synths, yes indeed... who uses them?? besides *most* recording artists?? what about ELECTRONIC music, lol? but lots of stuff produces harmonics or resonances BELOW their fundamental frequencies (which you refer to above). and the "cannon" shots referred to? depending on tuning, hall acoustics, and micing technique, a 40" (and often larger) concert bass drum has plenty of info at the low end of the hearing spectrum. hell, that is twice the diameter of a typical "kick" drum, and we are all familiar with the de facto low frequency "thud" that has become the recorded kick.

and dont even get me started on sub-harmonic processors (and lots of studios use *those* too).

i wish my main speakers displayed -3dB @ 10hz, lol... alas, pursuing music for a chunk of my life has left me much lighter on $$$ than on appreciation of music and sound quality... que sera sera...

a

[F1nut]

Ok, thanks for the info. Like I said, talking out loud here.

I think we can agree that since DofK has 1.2TL's, if the bass isn't in the recording a sub isn't going to help find it.

[honda cber]

yes we can.

brief aside, i was trying to recall the eliminator album, as its been ages since ive heard it. IIRC, there isnt much of dusty and frank on that record; i remember repetitive-pattern synth bass, sequenced drums, a few typical 80's synth pads, and lots of gated reverb. in fact, that was kind of the top's tendency from that album on, i suppose? the rev is a pretty smokin' guitar player, though. not overly technical, but you can tell he was feeling that stuff.

hmm, i think deguello is currently on deck after this one (some mahavishnu)... sda notwithstanding.

a

[MillerLiteScott]

You can see the SDA effect rather clearly in Steely Dans Song "Aja". A floor tom is pretty prominant in the left channel but you can see the right SDA speaker(s) move independent of the right stereo Speaker(s) everytime that floor tom is hit.

[Lasareath]

I've been playing ZZ top all week, on my 1.2's, in the shower and in my car with my Polk Momo speakers!, Very good sounds!, it's been years since I listened to them.

On another note, I borrowed a DTS disc of Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture and I got through about 4 minutes and 39 seconds and I had to take it out of my player, it was like nails on a chalk board. I've been through pain that was more pleasant that listening to that!

Las