Crazy French

[gidrah]

:eek:

http://www3.sympatico.ca/rsf/France.htm

:eek: :eek: :eek:

[trubluluc]

What did you say???

I hope his sweetspot has a seatbelt.

-Luc

[burdette]

No wonder France can't win a war.

I didn't see a Discwasher...

[F1nut]

That set up is AWESOME and those horns are beautiful. Drool......

[STUFFMD]

That's what i'm talking about....a real freaking wall of sound....I gotta get me one of those.................Peace StuffMD

[meestercleef]

and to think that he could have equally good sound from a Bose wave radio!

[RuSsMaN]

That's an awesome rig, talk about 'live'. Nice link Mark....

Cheers,
Russ

[HBombToo]

Would that be considered a high end rig?

[Janusch]

Showed my friend the pics and his mouth dropped open, he is a really turntable freak. He then proceeded to spend the next 1/2 hours discribing them. Awesome pics.
Thanks

[hoosier21]

two tone arms? can somebody explain that?

[rlw]

Originally posted by hoosier21
two tone arms? can somebody explain that?


B/c you want to run two different cartridges...

For example, a cart with a "mono" stylus and a cart with a "stereo" stylus. The grooves are different enough that to get the best sound requires a stylus specifically designed for that.

If you're a serious vinyl collector and audiophile, you might want to run a second cart that's a "beater": there's nothing like placing a 50 year old piece of vintage vinyl on your table, carefully dropping your $3,000.00 cartridge/stylus on it, and then discovering a crack in the middle of the LP. It might have been hard to see before, but with your stylus/cantilever/coils hanging out of it, you wonder how you missed that gaping chasm.

Likewise, if you're not seriously listening, just partying, it's nice to not use that mega-buck cartridge. The more you use it, the quicker you get to buy a replacement.

Everything in analog is a tradeoff. For example, I might like a certain cartridge/arm combo b/c of it's high-end response; I might like another cart/arm combo b/c of it's ability to mask surface noise. So I might use the first one on my LP's that are in great shape, but not on other LPs.

The list of reasons for 2 arms goes on and on and on...I wish my table supported two arms. I'd love to have a "beater" cartridge mounted and ready to go at all times.

[Janusch]

The friend that was looking at it said that you would want this type of setup if you are switching from 78 to 33 1/2 because they have two different needles

[RuSsMaN]

As rlw said, one mono, one stereo.....

[jmasterj]

Show the wife that , and tell her you won't go that crazy. But you
do need a______________, and a couple of _______________
and a ___________, and you'll be finished for a while. heh heh heh....

[Frank Z]

talk about a horny frenchman!!

[HBombToo]

Thats a good 1!

[smglbrth]

I'm sure it sounds, good, sort of, maybe but that's got to be the one the most unique, well thought out, put together, definitely one of the most butt ugly systems I've ever seen.
Like I said before though, I'm sure it sounds good....

[nadams]

Are those 36" woofers or something??? Something tells me that's a lot of sound!

DooD

[madmax]

Has anyone heard a good turntable like those on a really good system? Just intrigues me a bit. Could they really sound better than the $200 pioneer I don't care for much? There just has to be something to this "sound" people talk about. I've tried my pioneer a few times over the past few years and have never been impressed.
madmax

[rlw]

Originally posted by madmax001
Has anyone heard a good turntable like those on a really good system? Just intrigues me a bit. Could they really sound better than the $200 pioneer I don't care for much? There just has to be something to this "sound" people talk about. I've tried my pioneer a few times over the past few years and have never been impressed.
madmax

Yeah, me.

If you're ever in the Cleveland, OH area, you're welcome to stop by for a listen. You can then be the judge.

But a good, properly set-up analog rig really does sound that much better.

[meestercleef]

I have never listened to a really good turntable with a really good cartridge/stylus. However, I've noticed huge differences in sound quality on tape decks, comparing say, Type I tape recorded on a boombox w/out any Dolby vs metal tape recorded on a decent (not audiophile, but decent) mass-market deck w/Dolby C & Hx Pro. If the difference between good & bad turntable equipment is as great as the difference in cassette quality, I'm willing to at least consider the possibility that vinyl can be a great experience. If your vinyl years, like mine, were spent listening to hard rock on cheap turntables w/cheap cartridges/styluses in an altered state of mind, it's easy to be dismissive of vinyl. In my recent tentative explorations of the vinyl issue, I had it pointed out to me more than once that I would need to get a good cartridge/stylus, not just a good turntable. I've been told that when a cartridge/stylus comes with the turntable, it usually (not always) is something you should replace & keep as an emergency back-up. Just my 2 cents worth for anyone looking into vinyl. If you have experience w/quality turntables & want to correct or elaborate, please do, as I'm just passing on what I've heard.

[rlw]

Originally posted by meestercleef
In my recent tentative explorations of the vinyl issue, I had it pointed out to me more than once that I would need to get a good cartridge/stylus, not just a good turntable.

More importantly, you need to get a cartridge that is designed for use in the tonearm, and those have to be mated well to the table in question. For example: a low-mass arm will not typically mate well with a low-compliance cartridge - the cartridge/stylus assembly will transmit too much energy back into the arm and the arm will resonate at an undesireable frequency. If you want to run a low-compliance cartridge, you should use a high-mass arm which can remain unaffected by the mechanical energy transmitted from cart/stylus.

And if you have a low-compliance cart/high-mass arm combo, you need to match that carefully to the table, for the same reasons. If too much energy is transmitted to the TT plinth - and too much is relative to the mass/design of the plinth - then resonances will be excited...

Then, you have to worry about the environment your idea table/arm/cart are placed in: you can have the best combo, but if vibration from external sources [like your speakers] creates resonances in the TT plinth, that's going to affect the sound that is reproduced. In it's worst manifestation, this is called feedback...

OH, and we haven't even started on the electrical characteristics required of a step-up device. Remember, LP's are cut with an EQ curve (most typically RIAA); the curve is such that the cart's output has to have bass boosted and the treble cut. Now try doing that accurately, without phase shift, to a signal that might be coming off the cart at microvolts.

Then there's the issue of electrical noise: a low or even medium output cartridge can require a lot of gain. In my system, running a medium output MC cartridge, I have 65dB of gain in the phono stage, and then the amps give 37dB of gain - so running the preamp at unity gain [admittedly loud] means that there's 100dB of gain, give or take. Any slight hum/RFI introduced in the signal from TT to phono stage is going to get really obnoxious by the time it hits the speakers.

Digital is definitely easier - in fact, I'm now wondering why I even bother with analog as I realize what a PITA it is. But then I'll go downstairs and listen...and realize that analog is worth it.

Sorry to babble.

[meestercleef]

my brain hurts

[madmax]

Originally posted by rlw


Sorry to babble.

Not babbling at all!!!

Thanks for the input. I am thinking about getting a turntable setup sometime this winter but know little about it. I hope you will be around to help guide me. I'm thinking in the range of $500 to $1200. I hope you can build a good turntable/arm/cartridge/preamp setup for that much but I'm not sure. I would want a decent preamp with a tube in it so I'm sure that is a cost adder. I recently saw a VPI setup for $1300 new which included an arm and cartridge that might be a consideration. I forget the name of it but it looked pretty basic.

Thanks!
madmax

[madmax]

This is the one I've been looking at.

http://www.amusicdirect.com/products/detail.asp?sku=AVPISCOUT&rljs=1

[rlw]

madmax: I looked for your system on the showcase, and didn't see it, and I'm too lazy to go looking through all threads for it...if you don't mind, can you post it? Include some details about your room setup as well...acoustics, construction, etc.

What kind of music do you listen to? What qualities do you value most in the music you listen to? Different tables have different "sounds". VPI's traditionally have a darker, lusher sound - some people love that, others (me included) hate it. I haven't head the Scout - but I can't imagine that VPI would much change their house sound. VPI does make excellent, reliable products, so I wouldn't hesitate over build quality.

How much vinyl do you currently have? How much are budgeting to buy? Are you going to be buying the "audiophool" pressings? What about used? BTW, there's more audiphool vinyl being pressed now than in the "heyday" of vinyl - by far. There's a lot of new vinyl being pressed in general - I just picked up the Dixie Chicks latest release on LP, and it's excellent. Not to mention that all the hardcore is released on vinyl, and it's cheaper than CD...so if you're a music lover, vinyl makes more sense than ever.

What's your total budget for this? I'm going to suggest that you think about: a record cleaner ($30 - $500); a stylus cleaner; a tracking force gauge; a level; a protractor/alignment tool; and a good stand for your table. You'll probably want to budget somewhere around $200-$400 for a cartridge, and at least that for a phono stage. All this can quickly add to a grand.

Do you like to "tinker"? Do you like to upgrade? Analog is great for this - it's pretty amazing how much you can change the sound of your system easily with a table mod. If you're looking for a no-brainer, one-stop solution, something like the Scout might be great - but I'm not sure that I see a lot of upgrade potential in it. For example, I'm not a big fan of a plinth constructed from a plate of steel and MDF - the MDF is OK (not great), but steel? Talk about ringing like a bell...the MDF will damp that, but enough?

Also, the VPI uses an AC motor - not a bad thing at all - but you have to feed it good clean AC to get the best results. If you have crappy power, you might want to consider some kind of an AC regenerator for any AC motor.

If you're ever looking to upgrade, I think the Scout will be a problem. I don't think it will be worth upgrading much - I can't see tossing a better arm on it, and I can't see tossing a really great cartridge on it. I think that ugrading from the Scount means selling the Scout and starting over - and I have a gut feeling that you're going to take a beating if you do that - you'll probably get, at best, $500.00 for it a year from now.

I'd also suggest that you give Galen Carol a call (gcaudio.com). He's a great guy - and he sells VPI as well as other brands and will give you a straight scoop. He's one of the best out there.

Just some stuff to think about. Don't worry, there's more. It's all worth it, too. I can't begin to tell you how analog has put the joy back into listening to music - and everybody who sits down and listens to my system agrees.

Hope that helps.

[gidrah]

rlw - great info

VPI is out of my financial reach. I'm trying to snag an old Dual off my buddy.


I bet this guy spends over $1000/yr on replacement tubes.

[F1nut]

Audiophool? Is that someone who invests in outdated source material or is it all of us here? :p

[gidrah]

I too wonder about this name. Furtherr explanation please.

[F1nut]

I'm sure he is refering to people who buy audiophile grade recordings. Perhaps he doesn't think the better recorded issues are worth the money. Since I gave up on vinly a long time ago I can't speak for that medium, but as for cd's, I swear by the audiophile grade.

[rlw]

Originally posted by F1nut
I'm sure he is refering to people who buy audiophile grade recordings. Perhaps he doesn't think the better recorded issues are worth the money. Since I gave up on vinly a long time ago I can't speak for that medium, but as for cd's, I swear by the audiophile grade.


Audiophool = gently poking fun at us and our hobby. I'm certainly an audiophool: who else would worry so much about a turntable?

The audiophool recordings sound fantastic, by the way. Some of the work being done by Steve Hoffman on the new 45RPM series is going to be to die for.

[gidrah]

That's cool. I didn't know if it was that or audiofool (for buying such crap).

[madmax]

rlw,
My current setup consists of two Manley Lab-100 monoblock EL-34 tube amps, a pair of Polk SRS-SDA speakers, Audioquest type 4 speaker cable (bi-wired), medium grade interconnects (next upgrade) and a Luxman CD player which has a tube preamp which I use to control volume of the system with. I use a Tripplite LCR-2400 signal conditioner for ac power. Oh yea, and a magic brick sitting on top of the CD player and Vibrapods on the CD and power amps.

I know I'll need a phono pre-amp section and probably a standard preamp.

I listen to all types of music: Jazz, Rap, Rock, Bluegrass, weird stuff, you name it. Not much classical because I don't have a clue what I would like. About the only thing I really don't like is James Taylor or Jimmy Buffet type stuff.

I like a very large dynamic range in music. CD's tend to offer a lot of dynamic range so I'm afraid that may be a problem. I like a good balance of tone. I like bass to be lifelike, not loud. I like the sound to be real. If a mistake is made I like it to jump out at you, not be lost in the mix. I like the treble to be smooth and not harsh at all. I tend to like the treble volume a little lower than normal.

I have about 100 LPs, many with ticks and pops which have been played many times with cheap cartridges and never cleaned. I plan on buying whatever new good quality recordings I can find.

My startup budget for this project SHOULD be around $1000 to get started and more as needed but I'm open. If more is needed to get MUCH better performance or to pick up on a REAL deal then I would probably spend it. I do not mind used equipment. As a matter of fact I prefer used equipment at half price.

I like to upgrade. I want something upgradeable. Actually, I find that buying a used system which someone else has already done the upgrades is normally best and cheapest.


Thanks for the opinions about the Scout. That is what I needed to know. Given the above, what sounds like a good setup? By the way, I like the cool things like the motor sitting off to the side, non-standard designs, you know, the wow factor stuff.

Thanks!
madmax

[rlw]

madmax,

Nice system! Even though you prefer a bit less treble, I'm thinking you've probably got that already with the SDA's and the tube amps. The following is based on that...

One thing to keep in mind: the differences between a $1,000.00 TT and a $10,000.00 TT are much larger than the differences between a $1,000.00 CDP and a $10,000.00 CDP. TT's, arms, carts, and phono stages continue to yield substantial gains as you pay more.

The dynamic range of LPs on a good analog rig will quickly embarrass CD's. I don't think you have any concerns there.

I think at $1,000.00 you'll have to choose your compromises carefully...but you can do well.

One thing that you don't mention is what kind of floor and rack you'll be placing your rig on: that makes a huge difference. For example, I'm tempted to recommend that you consider a used Linn LP-12. They're renowned for their PRaT (pace, rhythm, and timing) and neutral presentation. However, they are a suspended table - and if you have a "flexy" rack or a planked floor, you will have problems setting up the Linn.

You might have to consider a wall mount stand - and that might not do it. If, however, you're on a concrete slab, the Linn would work fine.

The Linn is a truly high-end table - toss in a budget cart, and a budget phono stage, and you have the start of a fine system. Depending on the arm that comes with it, you can upgrade to an Origins Live Modded Rega arm, a better cart, a better phono stage...

At another end of the spectrum are Basis tables. You can get into the Basis line at the low end, and upgrade until you have the top-end model. If you notice, there's not a lot of used Basis tables on the market - b/c of their upgradeability. They're a great choice, known for being all-around good tables - they are very neutral.

I'm heavily biased towards Michell tables, owning an Orbe SE. You could hunt for a Gyro SE - and that can be upgraded a lot...power supply, platter, motor... The Michell's are finicky like the Linn wrt to what they're place on - but sound fantastic, in my book. That might push your budget a bit, but they have a very high drool factor. Great PRaT, and great bass.

Another way to consider going: consider an Music Hall MMF series table. While the table itself isn't upgradeable, you can still upgrade the cartridge and phono stage. The MMF-7 gets raved about, and I see a dealer demo w/ cart on Audiogon for 790.00 (Underwoodwally is a great guy - I've bought from him, absolutely trustworthy, he's a great dealer). I'm mentioning this as a good way to stick real close to your budget.

Whew. Well, hope that gives you a couple of ideas.

[madmax]

Thanks rlw,
I've been anxiously awaiting your reply! A wall mount stand is a possibility. My living space revolves around audio, not the other way around like many. I've been looking at some of the tables you have mentioned. The Michell or Basis look almost like a no brainer to me. I'm sure I'll figure it out but what is PRaT?
I will look into the MMF series as well. Feel free to mention anything you see going at a good price.
Please, keep babbling! It may be a few months before I splurge, but I am.
Thanks again,
madmax

[rlw]

PRaT = "Pace, Rhythm, and Timing".

The only problem with the Michell or the Basis is that you will definitely blow your initial budget.

But what the hell, that's what deficit spending is for, right?

[madmax]

rlw,
What does this look like? Which tonearm would I want?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1384753215

Thanks,
madmax

[rlw]

That looks like analog erotica...I warned you, your budget is shot to hell!

I'd ask the seller for a serial number, and contact John Michell and make sure that it's legit. FYI, there are no official "MK 1, MK2, MK3" versions of the table - Michell doesn't do that. However, a lot of people do make those distinctions, because the changes from one generation to the next were so big. But don't be taken aback if John tells you it's not a "Mark 3".

Arms: John voices his tables with Rega arms and SME arms...I'm pretty sure the Rega uses the same armboard as the SME. I'd suggest starting off the a Rega, maybe splurge for the Origins Live Fully Modified Rega 250. Great budget arm to get started on...

That leaves you looking for a cart and a phono stage and setup tools. An Audio Technica OC-9 cart would be a great choice; a Rega Elys would be good as well.

Where are we at with the budget now?

[madmax]

rlw,
I'm not worried about the MK 3 designation. If you check the Michell website they refer to these designations in the "gallery". MK 3 is the current version according to that. It does have the AC motor but it has the optional power supply as well. Budget? Oh yea, that. Well? I'm still not sure I am willing to spend that much for something that may not surpass my CD's. I'm wondering about SACD's and DVD audio as well. I'm pretty serious but I'm still open. I would rather spend enough to be happy than to spend almost that much just to leave it sit there unused.
I'm confused.
madmax

[rlw]

Originally posted by madmax001
rlw,
If you check the Michell website they refer to these designations in the "gallery". MK 3 is the current version according to that.unused.
I'm confused.
madmax

Some trivia for ya': The website is maintained by Werner Ogiers, who is not an employee of Michell, believe it or not. I've included a link to one of Werner's posts on another forum below where he explains that the "MK" designations are a convenient fiction by some folks, and not recognized by John Michell.

If you go to that other forum, and do a search for posts by Werner, you'll quickly learn a bewildering amount about the Gyros and their upgrades.

Why are you confused? It's probably all that digital tripe that passes for music rattling around in your brain, madmax. You need a listening session with a properly setup TT so that you can clearly hear the music. Once you hear clearly, there will be no question.

The best example I can give: I have an LP that is way off-center, so much so that there is noticeable wow-and-flutter as the arm moves all over the place. I have the same recording on CD. I'd rather listen to the LP, b/c at least there's music there.




Werner's Post (http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?forum=vinyl&n=46798&highlight=official+Werner&r=&session=)

[Paul Connor]

rlw,

Hi, and thanks for the input on vinyl. Its good to hear I'm not the only one out there still listening to LP's. My record collection from the 70's remains intact and remarkably well preserved considering the many moves I've made and the wild years. Of course I buy and listen to cd's, but my preference is still vinyl. It is amazing what you can buy out there today in new pressings.

My rig consists of a Rega Planar 3 turntable, a couple of Carver amps, with Polk SDA 1.2's. For anyone thinking of adding a turntable, the Rega offers a very affordable entry. The Elys cartridges provide amazing sound for the price. Here is a link to their site.

http://www.rega.co.uk/index2.htm

madmax: yes they do sound better than the Pioneer tables. I had the best turntable Marantz made and it could not come close to the Rega. There are many others out there. Keep an eye on ebay. If I see anything, I will post it. Good luck.

Paul

[madmax]

010101001001 must make brain think analog...

In my heart I'm thinking there is a new (or maybe old) world out there but I keep thinking of the ticks, pops, rumbles etc. Lets say this: I will probably take the plunge so long as I think I can re-sell the equipment for close to what I paid. This is one reason that something like the Michell (used) seems to make sense to me.

So an LP can sound as good or better than a CD? I'll take your word for it. I know everything has to be set up properly and the "system" must work together so don't get uptight, I wouldn't hold you to anything. If I have to get part of the system now and part later that is fine. Anticipation is OK for awhile and anyway, I cannot just go out and get the table, arm, cart, preamp, acc etc all right now anyway. I'm thinking I'll just pick a deal on each item as I find it and when it comes together it does. Keep me informed of any deals you see. I really like the Michell tables.
madmax

[rlw]

Originally posted by madmax001
010101001001 must make brain think analog...

In my heart I'm thinking there is a new (or maybe old) world out there but I keep thinking of the ticks, pops, rumbles etc

So an LP can sound as good or better than a CD?

Keep me informed of any deals you see. I really like the Michell tables.
madmax

LP's simply blow away CD's - it ain't even close.

Almost all of us fell for it, for a number of reasons we were ripe for the picking: perfect sound forever. Dealers love digital, b/c analog done right is effin' hard: nobody wants to demo a single freakin' cartridge to somebody when it takes so long to setup. As listeners, we became enchanted with the obvious background silence, and were immediately sold.

A buddy who's favorite CD is Pink Floyd's "Wish You Were Here" grew up digital. He came over one night, and we compared a regular CD of WYWH with a limited edition Super Bit Mapped version I have; clearly, the SBM version whomped the regular CD.

Then I put on a standard LP of WYWH - not audiophile, I don't even know what generation the pressing was, I picked it up for $4.00 someplace. The LP so definitively trounced the SBM CD it wasn't funny...and not just to my ears.

One of the things a better table will do is completely eliminate rumble: with the Gyro, you won't hear the motor, at all. Likewise, the better the table/arm/cart, the less surface noise you will hear - this phenomenon is something that everybody who gets into high-end tables is surprised by, but it's true. One of the comments I get about our system is that "It's as quiet as CD." Sure, I have a few LP's that are noisy - but not many. Most that are noisy get cleaned, and then they're fine.

Take it a step at a time: get a good table, an entry-level arm + cart, and an affordable phono stage. You'll love it - and then just wait until you get a better phono stage: you'll stay up all night listening to everything you missed.

Once again, if you ever find yourself close to Cleveland, you have my sympathies and an open invitation to come over and listen.

rlw

[rlw]

Originally posted by Paul Connor
rlw,

Hi, and thanks for the input on vinyl. Its good to hear I'm not the only one out there still listening to LP's. My record collection from the 70's remains intact and remarkably well preserved considering the many moves I've made and the wild years. Of course I buy and listen to cd's, but my preference is still vinyl. It is amazing what you can buy out there today in new pressings.

My rig consists of a Rega Planar 3 turntable, a couple of Carver amps, with Polk SDA 1.2's. For anyone thinking of adding a turntable, the Rega offers a very affordable entry. The Elys cartridges provide amazing sound for the price. Here is a link to their site.

http://www.rega.co.uk/index2.htm

madmax: yes they do sound better than the Pioneer tables. I had the best turntable Marantz made and it could not come close to the Rega. There are many others out there. Keep an eye on ebay. If I see anything, I will post it. Good luck.

Paul

Hi Paul.

You're not alone, man! Nice rig you have. I do have one question: do you find the Rega arm tough to setup?

I lost my original LP collection to my first wife. It's funny, I lived without music for a while, and then when I got back into it, CD was the only thing around. All the time I listened to CD's I kept wondering why listening to music just wasn't as fun as it used to be, but I figured it was one of those age-related things.

Then I got back into vinyl at the urging of some folks, and realized what was missing: CD's might be "perfect sound" but as sources of music, they suck. Since then - about 2 years ago - I've grown my LP stash to about 1200 titles, and have hardly bought any CD's. I have one friend who has over 20,000 records (LPs + 45s), and sitting down to listen with him is a hoot...his system is not audiophile-approved, but it's still music that we hear.

There's more titles being released on LP than on SACD and DVD-A combined...


Keep the faith, Paul.

[madmax]

rlw,
I put a bid in on the previous link I posted. I think I might be into this vinyl stuff. If it really is better than CD's then I don't mind the cost.
If you don't mind, what differences would you think is noticable between maybe the Rega 250 or similar tonearm VS maybe the SME 309 (I kinda fell in love with the looks of it) or something similar? Not to press you for exact info but just in general. Also, I looked for the OC-9 cart but only found some foreign language links.

BTW, thanks for the quick info to get me up to speed. I realize it will take awhile to build up a knowledge base from reading other forums and really appreciate the "TT for dummies" advice.
madmax

[Paul Connor]

rlw,

In response to your question, I really didn't have much trouble setting up the tonearm on my Planar. A friend came over and we spent about an hour getting it just right. Once we got it leveled and the tonearm weight set, I haven't messed with it much. The Rega turntables are extremely simple in design and very user friendly. I did buy a new Elys cartridge this year, and it was a simple change.

I experienced digital music in much the same way. In the late 80's I bougt my first cd player, but didn't enjoy the music as much. With me, I think a lot of it has to do with the process of handling the lp. The size, feel and familiarity of it. There is just something about handling, cleaning and placing the tonearm to vinyl. I know many others who have said the same thing. Perhaps I am just an old f'er and got too set in my ways young. I will say that for the music I listen to, vinyl seems to lend a much richer and warmer quality to music. I do not pretend to be a very knowlegable listener, but for my taste, it is a good fit. With all that said, I do own a decent collection of cd's that I listen to on a regular basis and they are ok, but for my favorites, I listen to LP's. The collection currently stands somewhere around 2000 titles. My wife and kids consider me maladjusted.

I can relate to the ex thing. I had to literally wrestle my ex for the record collection first time around. I won out, though. Sorry for your first loss. That's cold for a woman to run off with a guy's record collection. I think it would be better if she ran off with your brother.

Here is a link you should look at. You will like it.

Paul

http://www.furious.com/perfect/vinylanachronist.html

[raycomics]

if you R and "old fart". (like me)

Remember that great old song that you had back in the day that is now on any new Car commercial on TV now?.

Well, the 1 you had is pretty scatched up now, cause you were in sort of a "Haze" most of the time back then.

You go online to try to find it now, and guess what, it's seriously out of print, and you can't get it on CD.

But hey, there is 1, but it is an import. Hey, its only gonna cost you $60 plus shipping!

What to do?

Visit your friendly neighborhood Thirft Store, and hey, sitting right there between the Old Shoes and Old Audio Stuff is THE Album you R lookin for, and guess what, NO Scratches and the Album looks like it was brought just yesterday.

So, for $.50 or $1.00, you can relive priceless memories "Haze" Free!


This is a True Story.

[rlw]

No problem with getting me to talk about vinyl/analog...I just hope some of this is useful and gets you turned on to listening more.

RE: SME 309 v. Rega 250. Tough question, b/c you have to consider the system as a whole. The SME is going to be easier to setup [The first time I setup an SME arm, it took me all of 15 minutes, with no help from anybody]. The Rega will take longer, no doubt. The SME is going to give you easier out of the box vertical tracking angle (VTA) adjustment; but the Rega has some add on's available that help with that.

Some folks feel that the new version of the SME-309 greatly outperforms the older version. SME arms traditionally are thought to be a bit big in the bass - but that's due more to tonearm/TT matchup. The SME arms are a high-mass, rigid arm, and they transmit a *lot* of energy back to the plinth - and if you're plinth can't handle it, resonances will occur that bloat the bass. The problem with bass bloat is that it affects all other areas of the frequency spectrum with a "blurriness"...

One big factor in favor of the Rega: there's a huge aftermarket modification cottage industry for these arms. SME you pretty much buy and live with...


Check out the following link for some cart info.


NeedleDoctor (http://www.needledoctor.com)

[rlw]

Thanks for the comments on Rega setup. I'm pretty firmly in the SME camp, and setup is extremely easy on those arms.

I agree with the whole physical part of playing LP's. Plus, every time friends come over, they are clearly attracted to leafing through the vinyl collection and we almost always end up listening to vinyl at their request.

RE: the link. Boon (Marc Phillips) is a good guy. He's been preaching the wisdom of vinyl for quite some time. He loves Rega, too...if I recall, he owned/owns a Rega 25 as his primary table, with a Benz Micro cart.

RE: ex's. Can't live with'em, can't hunt 'em down & drag 'em naked behind the Jeep for a couple miles through gravel.

[madmax]

rlw,
So there are high mass arms and low mass arms. The high mass arms require the plinth to be more massive? Are the Michells reasonable for this or do you still want a lower mass arm? The other thing I'm wondering about are MC vs MM carts. I think the MM ones have an output of .4mv whereas the MC have 4mv outputs. Do you need another stage of preamp for them? For either type you need a phono section, is that correct?

Someone already outbid me on that GyroDec with Orbe and motor/supply upgrade. It is at $1150 now. Is it worth taking the price higher? I had $1125 on it and the buy it now was $1500. I've heard these tables will last two lifetimes so it makes sense to me to buy used. Any opinion?
madmax

[hoosier21]

Any opinion? here is my opinion, your f_cking nuts. There are two types of phono preamps, one for MM and one for MC, The NAD gear I have has a switch for both types on the back of the preamp. If you are looking at getting stand alone Phono preamp, be sure it matches the cartridge you are buying or plan to buy, or get one that will do both MM/MC

[madmax]

Well duh! Why don't you tell me something I didn't know. Besides, I'm "mad", that is different than "f_cking nuts".

On the bottlehead forum they are about to offer a tube kit called the "seduction" which looks pretty cool for $200 or so. Check it out.

http://www.bottlehead.com/et/adobespc/Seduction/seduction.htm

[hoosier21]

I forget there is a difference.

[rlw]

Originally posted by madmax001
rlw,
So there are high mass arms and low mass arms. The high mass arms require the plinth to be more massive? Are the Michells reasonable for this or do you still want a lower mass arm? The other thing I'm wondering about are MC vs MM carts. I think the MM ones have an output of .4mv whereas the MC have 4mv outputs. Do you need another stage of preamp for them? For either type you need a phono section, is that correct?

Someone already outbid me on that GyroDec with Orbe and motor/supply upgrade. It is at $1150 now. Is it worth taking the price higher? I had $1125 on it and the buy it now was $1500. I've heard these tables will last two lifetimes so it makes sense to me to buy used. Any opinion?
madmax

Well, now, it depends on who ya talk to. If you talk to the folks at Sumiko or SME, they'll tell you that in order to use one of their arms, you have to put on a massy plinth.

If you talk to John Michell, he'll tell you that the Gyro is fine with it, due to kinetic energy/mass.

I use an SME-V on my Orbe, and I have no problems - bass is not an issue.

The Rega is more of a medium-mass arm, so it might work out better on the Gyro.

The other parameter at play: the compliance of the cartridge. A low compliance cartridge requires a high-mass tonearm; that combo - a "stiff" suspension behind the needle - sends more energy through the arm that needs to be damped.

MM carts have a higher output - by far. They also tend to have a more rolled-off high-end, and most high-enders agree that they don't image/soundstage as well a MC...and MC's tend to be the lower-compliance carts.

A high-compliance cart - like the Shure V15-MVxr - will *probably* track better, at least in theory. That's a good argument for them. It's a MM. A good argument for MM is the higher output: 3mV for the Shure.

You will need a phono section. If you go with a MC cart, say a "medium output" of .3mV, you should plan on your phono stage have 65dB of gain. You can get by with less - but you will sacrifice some dynamics, IMO. 65dB is an assload of gain, and you need a quiet phono stage to do it cleanly. Move to a lower ouput MC, and you might want 78dB of gain, which is an assload with an enema added. Then, noise becomes a real issue.

A MM, at 3mV, will only need 45dB of gain. Much more reasonable, and many phono stages can adequately handle that.

Other factors in the phono stage are resistance (loading) and capacitance (impedance). You'll want to be able to change the loading for sure to find what works best for your taste.

The BottleHead Seduction should be a good kit. They're great folks there - really sharp, really sincere. Note that the Seduction alone will not give you enough gain to run a medium or low output MC cart. I do like that they're not trying to do active RIAA equalization - that shows they know (well, duh) the limits of the simple tube circuit, and aren't pushing things too hard.

You could, of course, add a head-amp/step-up transformer between the cart's output and the Bottleheads input to get more gain. That's a good solution, and pretty inexpensive if bought used.

A great starting point might the Gyro with a Rega 250 arm and an MM cartridge. That will get you started nicely.

That Gyro sounds like a good deal. Just remember that the Gyro is going to be a bit picky about it's support - it needs something firm and stable under it. Don't even think about a flexy rack.

Oh, and keep in mind that it is a suspended table, and is "delicate" in comparison to non-suspended. Not a big deal, but some folks can't deal with it as it does bounce easily.

I can't imagine you'd be disappointed w/in those constraints, and you'll probably be able to recoup your cash if you decide to sell.

[rlw]

Check it out - could be you (http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/157177.html)

[madmax]

It will be at some point. Soon. Now just to score the goods! I have been talked into giving it a try. I hope I can find enough vinyl to make it worthwhile. I wonder if my 1.2's will be limiting given the rest of my system? This audio stuff sure is a vicious circle. I'm pretty set on a table from Michell given what I have read. $1000, what was I thinking!
madmax

[Paul Connor]

madmax,

You will not have trouble finding excellent vinyl. Be careful, though when buying on ebay. Near mint can mean anything. With that said, though, I have bought a lot of albums on ebay that were in some cases better than described. These days I try to stay with new pressings and sealed copies. It removes the unknown factor. Here is an excellent source in Salina Kansas. They are great guys too.

http://store.acousticsounds.com/

What do you mean by your 1.2's being limited? Is this in reference to lp's?

Paul

[madmax]

Thanks for the link. With the 1.2's I just meant that the amplification and turntable setup will be excellent and I hope the 1.2's are up to the same standards to produce the class of sound I'm looking for. I think they will be but there are a lot of really good speakers out there.
madmax

[madmax]

I just scored the Michell GyroDec with Orbe and motor/controller upgrade for $1475 today. I was hoping to get it for $1150 but oh well. I'm hurtin' right now! I still need a tonearm, cartridge, record cleaner, preamp, assorted gagets etc! I'll look for a tonearm next. I'm thinking a rega 250, 300, 600 or SME something or other. I just spent my buget so I've got some time to look right now. Lucky for me there are 3 paychecks this month!
madmax

[rlw]

Originally posted by madmax001
I just scored the Michell GyroDec with Orbe and motor/controller upgrade for $1475 today.
madmax


Excellent!

As far as the other pieces go, I'm sure you'll get there quickly. It sounds like you want to do this the right way - you're not going out and buying an old Dual table for $50 and tossing a low compliance cart in it and bitching about how bad it is. You've bought an excellent table, and you're talking about excellent arms.

Nicely done, and congrats.

There's always a limiting factor in your system. That's why we're audiophools!

[madmax]

Paul,
I just went to the Acoustic Sounds link you sent. Looks like a good site. Thanks! What do the following catagories under vinyl mean?


LPs
180 Gram
120 Gram
200 Gram
D2D

I've never seen these before except for LP.
madmax

[Paul Connor]

Hi madmax

LP.... I think this an old term that is short for long playing. (vs 45's etc.)

180 Gram 120 etc.... is the weight of the vinyl used. In the later heyday of record albums, companies apparently used less vinyl in their pressings. My guess is that it was a corporate decision to save money on each copy. The heavier the album, the less chance there is that it will have warp in it. I remember in the late 70's buying records that were nearly paper thin and would come out of the sleeve pre-warped. You will also see the term virgin vinyl which I believe is vinyl that has not been recycled.

D2D......I don't know what this is. Mayby rlw can help us here?

The guys at acoustic sounds are awesome. It is a company where you can call and actually talk to a person and in my experience someone who is not only knowledgable, but friendly and helpful (oh , and by the way, they don't talk down to you). I bought my last cartridge through them and they were great to work with. I have also bought albums from them and the service and delivery is fast.

Concerning your earlier post...don't worry about what the 1.2's will do for analog music. They are truly amazing. After lunch today I sat down and listened to Van Morrison's Moondance on 180 gram vinyl and my Polks have yet to dissapoint me. The album that sold me on the Polks was Willie Nelson's Red Headed Stranger. Between the Rega and the Polks, this album NEVER sounded so good. Every string that old man pulls on his worn out guitar sounds perfect. Given the direction you are taking you will not be dissapointed. I'm more than a little envious. Good luck!

Hope I got those terms right. rlw may have some further input. Are you out there?

Paul

[hoosier21]

D2D = Direct to Disc

[madmax]

I like Willie Nelson. I'll have to give that a try. I found quite a few albums I would like to have already but they will have to wait. I wouldn't be too envious. At least you have a tonearm and a cartridge! (and a brain) It will be awhile for me. BTW, I'm not eating lunch this year either and I have decided to use a pre-amp with phono pre-amp that I have in the magic closet for awhile as well.

Who started this damn post anyway, I was perfectly happy with my CD player! Gidrah???

madmax

[rlw]

Originally posted by madmax001
BTW, I'm not eating lunch this year either and I have decided to use a pre-amp with phono pre-amp that I have in the magic closet for awhile as well.

Who started this damn post anyway, I was perfectly happy with my CD player! Gidrah???

madmax


Acoustic Sounds is a great source. Here's a couple of more to whet your whistle:

The BopShop - absolute best in used jazz (http://www.bopshop.com)

Elusive Disc (http://www.elusivedisc.com)

Red Trumpet (http://www.redtrumpet.com)

Note: for the 3 above, get on their e-mail list. You'll be informed of specials like 15% off sales.

Euclid Records - mondo used records (http://www.euclidrecords.com)

GEMM - if you can't find it here, you won't find it (http://www.gemm.com)

Even the SACD folks do vinyl - a bit difficult to navigate, but new releases are here (http://www.sonymusicdirect.com/)


More Used Records (http://www.flipmall.com)

The above does not grade covers, but are accurate in record grading.


B-Bop Records - Small, but good for a couple rarities (http://www.bboprecords.com/asp/default.asp)


Armed with these links, and a platinum card, you can really do your part to help the economy.

[madmax]

Thanks for the sites!!! I'll bookmark each. I was a little afraid of availability of stuff I like but I'm seeing some of it. Besides, I'm fairly flexable when it comes to music. I have about a hundred LP's but it remains to be seen if they are still of good quality. I'm a little worried that never cleaning them and not being careful enough with them may have had it's toll.

Speaking of cleaning: Which cleaning machine would you pick? I looked at a nitty gritty 1.5 and one from VPI. Is there kind of a standard amounst LP enthusiasts?

[madmax]

One more thing about cleaning. Do you clean each time? Before or after or both? What is the standard procedure for handling LP's?
madmax