Dolby Truehd vs DD +

[sageleo]

What is the difference between the 2?

[millerman 3732]

Try this.

http://www.dolby.com/consumer/technology/tech_overview.html

[cheddar]

It's all about compression. Just like they have to use mpeg to compress video so it fits in a smaller space, they also have to compress the audio tracks to give them more room on the disk. However, the latest codecs allow for uncompression to a 'lossless' version of the original master. There are currently three options: TrueHD, uncompressed LPCM (no uncompression necessary, but larger files), and DTS-master audio (not well supported at the moment). These three are equivalent in 'lossless' sound quality. All the alphabet soup underneath, including DD+, will suffer from decompression to a lesser level of audio quality.

[olilugo]

millerman,
are you happy with your outlaw 7125? do you have "enough" amp for your speakers?

[sageleo]

I have the toshiba hd-a1 when I watch a movie it is played in DD+ how would I select truehd is that similiar to dts not all movies have it?

[MikeC78]

Go to the disks audio menu and select TruHD if it's available.

BTW; the only way to take advantage of this is by using the 5.1 analog outs, or HDMI via PCM to a capable AVR.

[BIZILL]

I have the toshiba hd-a1 when I watch a movie it is played in DD+ how would I select truehd is that similiar to dts not all movies have it?

holy run-on sentence, batman!

puntuation is a godsend.;)

[MikeC78]

Don't forget to capitalize.;)

[BIZILL]

Don't forget to capitalize.;)

KNOCK IT OFF...DON'T PICK ON ME.:D

[jakelm]

I know this is an older thread but.....

Since we are talking surround.

Is Dolby Digital PLus on standard disk or just HD disk? I was reading about it on the Dolby site but it really doesnt say.

Also I could not find a difference between DD EX and DD Surround EX.

All of my Star Wars disk or EX, but I did notice a couple of them are not 6.1 on my AVR, I guess its a flagging problem.

[jakelm]

Also. My HK Does not have HDMI connection. Do the players have an internal hd DAC with 7.1 analog out for DDHD and DTSHD?

[AndyGwis]

I think most if not all players come only with 5.1 analog out (if they even offer that). Maybe some of the newer stuff that's out or coming out has / will have 7.1 analog output.

My HD-XA1 has 5.1 channel. I'll need to remember to look for Dolby TrueHD.

So, if most people were to rank Audio Processing formats, it would go:

#1: Dolby TrueHD, DTS-Master Audio, uncompressed LPCM
#2: Dolby Digital +, DTS-HD
#3: Dolby D-EX, DTS
#4: Regular Dolby Digital 5.1
#5: Anything with Pro-Logic

[jakelm]

But will the player send HD audio through the analog out?

Like it does DVD-A and SACD,,

[ilikesound]

i called my toshiba dealer regarding this same issue.. it is only with the analog outs that it performs as intended. the optical or coax connection doesn't allow this until a firmware update is available sometime next year they claim.

[ilikesound]

taken from wikipedia:

Dolby Digital EX

Dolby Digital EX is similar in practice to Dolby's earlier Pro-Logic format, which utilized Matrix technology to add a center and single rear surround channel to stereo soundtracks. EX adds an extension to the standard 5.1 channel Dolby Digital codec in the form of matrixed rear channels, creating 6.1 or 7.1 channel output. However, the format is not considered a true 6.1 or 7.1 channel codec because it lacks the capability to support a discrete 6th channel unlike the competing DTS-ES codec.

Dolby Digital Surround EX

Dolby Digital Surround EX was co-developed by Dolby and Lucasfilm THX in time for the release in May 1999 of Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace. It provides an economical and backwards-compatible means for 5.1 soundtracks to carry a sixth, center back surround channel for improved localization of effects. The extra surround channel is matrix encoded onto the discrete Left Surround and Right Surround channels of the 5.1 mix, much like the front center channel on Dolby Surround encoded stereo soundtracks. The result can be played without loss of information on standard 5.1 systems, or played in 6.1 or 7.1 on systems equipped with Surround EX decoding and additional speakers. Dolby Digital Surround EX has since been used for the Star Wars prequels on the DVD versions and also the remastered original Star Wars trilogy. A number of DVDs have Dolby Digital Surround EX audio option.

[jakelm]

taken from wikipedia:

Dolby Digital EX

Dolby Digital EX is similar in practice to Dolby's earlier Pro-Logic format, which utilized Matrix technology to add a center and single rear surround channel to stereo soundtracks. EX adds an extension to the standard 5.1 channel Dolby Digital codec in the form of matrixed rear channels, creating 6.1 or 7.1 channel output. However, the format is not considered a true 6.1 or 7.1 channel codec because it lacks the capability to support a discrete 6th channel unlike the competing DTS-ES codec.

Dolby Digital Surround EX

Dolby Digital Surround EX was co-developed by Dolby and Lucasfilm THX in time for the release in May 1999 of Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace. It provides an economical and backwards-compatible means for 5.1 soundtracks to carry a sixth, center back surround channel for improved localization of effects. The extra surround channel is matrix encoded onto the discrete Left Surround and Right Surround channels of the 5.1 mix, much like the front center channel on Dolby Surround encoded stereo soundtracks. The result can be played without loss of information on standard 5.1 systems, or played in 6.1 or 7.1 on systems equipped with Surround EX decoding and additional speakers. Dolby Digital Surround EX has since been used for the Star Wars prequels on the DVD versions and also the remastered original Star Wars trilogy. A number of DVDs have Dolby Digital Surround EX audio option.


LOL...So there is no difference, both are matrixed 6th channel. Unlike DTS-ES in wich the 6th channel is descrete.

[jakelm]

i called my toshiba dealer regarding this same issue.. it is only with the analog outs that it performs as intended. the optical or coax connection doesn't allow this until a firmware update is available sometime next year they claim.


If I understand you right, then your stuck with TrueHD 5.1 surround on analog out. NO 6.1 or 7.1 HD audio.

[ilikesound]

right. that's what they claim. the other two channels in 7.1 are matrixed to the left surround and right surround anyway. (for now) so getting a 7.1 system will only increase the EFFECT of surround not be seperate channels. Thus, pointless. I have never seen a dvd with "7.1 Dolby Digital", whatever on it, anyways, even the new ones that have come out on HD or BD. i have no idea HOW this is going to pan out in the end, hopefully the player will eventually output true 7.1 thru the optical/coax, AND recievers will be able to decode said info, AND output it ALL as discrete channels. of course, this will all have to be approved by the appropriate companies and put into production blah blah.

correct me if i'm wrong, someone.
as far as i know, this is the way it works for now.

[cheddar]

right. that's what they claim. the other two channels in 7.1 are matrixed to the left surround and right surround anyway. (for now) so getting a 7.1 system will only increase the EFFECT of surround not be seperate channels. Thus, pointless. I have never seen a dvd with "7.1 Dolby Digital", whatever on it, anyways, even the new ones that have come out on HD or BD. i have no idea HOW this is going to pan out in the end, hopefully the player will eventually output true 7.1 thru the optical/coax, AND recievers will be able to decode said info, AND output it ALL as discrete channels. of course, this will all have to be approved by the appropriate companies and put into production blah blah.

correct me if i'm wrong, someone.
as far as i know, this is the way it works for now.

For now, studios are treating the rear surround channels in a 7.1 system as the sixth channel in a 6.1 system. LOTR was encoded with a discrete rear 6.1 track. And I think that Crank and some Fox blu-rays also have 6.1 tracks IIRC. But I would not hold out for something like TrueHD or DTS-MA tracks through optical or coax although the codecs actually support like 10.1 surround, again IIRC. If the bandwidth isn't too high for the connection, digital rights management would sure come into play. That's why you can't get TrueHD etc. over anything but HDMI 1.1 and above now. But I would think that 7.1 tracks will make an appearance eventually. Since they've had 6.1 tracks that pushed the limits of the old DTS standard for awhile now.

[jakelm]

I still think (even though compressed) LOTR 6.1 DTS is the best sound quality of any movie, so far. The descrete 6th channel, makes all the diference in the world on my system.

Better than Star Wars EX.

Better than the DTS track on Eagles Hell Freezes Over

The only 5.1 that comes close is the SACD of Godsmack.

[cheddar]

I am very curious what LOTR will be released in when it hits HD. Peter Jackson seems to love to push his movies to the technological limits just as George Lucas does. And for the first time they actually have audio formats that allow them to do a full 7.1 lossless HD remaster.

I really hope they push the surround envelope when their movies come out. Fox has been very good at remastering their blu-ray HD audio tracks. So we might actually see a DTS-MA 7.1 remaster for the star wars movies if/when they're finally released on blu-ray...

Edit: Oh, and jakelm, I completely agree with you about LOTR 6.1. My demo reference scene of choice is The Battle of the Pelennor Fields extended cut. Arrows flying around the room, huge bass heavy footfalls. A great scene.

[jakelm]

I dont see Lucas and DTS on the same disk. Lucas is hard core DD. I think I read somehwere that he could have gone DTS-ES on the last SW, but stuck with DD-EX. I could be wrong.

As for LOTR, if the SQ gets any better with HD, I will get Hypnotized.

[cheddar]

Good point. But I'd take a 7.1 TrueHD track with equal anticipation...:D.

[jakelm]

Good point. But I'd take a 7.1 TrueHD track with equal anticipation...:D.


Absolutly, now all I need is a HD player and a AVR that has HDMI 1.3 :p

[jakelm]

HMMMMMMMMM>.......

$599

Panasonic DMP-BD10A

With 7.1 analog out....and upconversion....and DVD-A......and 1080i over component...and DTS-HD, TrueHD.....and PCM 7.1 with DAC.

[cheddar]

Nice player,

But don't forget the real holy grail of DTS is Master Audio...;)

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Firmware_Upgrades/New_Samsung_Blu-ray_Player_Unlocks_DTS-HD_Master_Audio/1012

[jakelm]

Nice player,

But don't forget the real holy grail of DTS is Master Audio...;)

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Firmware_Upgrades/New_Samsung_Blu-ray_Player_Unlocks_DTS-HD_Master_Audio/1012


I thought DTS-HD was the same as DTS-MA, and the Samsung doesnt decode it internally. So it would not work with my HK.

[cheddar]

There is a DTS-HD lossy codec just like DD+ is better than the original but still lossy. DTS-HD Master Audio is the lossless codec equivalent to TrueHD. I've seen it abbreviated DTS-MA but its full name is DTS-HD MA. Nice of Dolby and DTS to confuse everyone with all the alphabet soup when all that really matters is TrueHD, uncompressed LPCM, and DTS-HD MA. :rolleyes: I would read the fine print of any player reviews very carefully as I don't think there is an announced player yet that has internal DTS-MA decoding. Although the article states that the ps3 may get a firmware update for internal decoding before Christmas.

[jakelm]

I said I was going to wait until this confusion clears up, but that was over a year ago now I'm getting antsy....

Now I'm waiting for a player to decode everything over 7.1 analog, so my $800 HK doesnt go to waste.

[cheddar]

Yeah, Dolby and DTS created a huge mess with their alphabet soup. If you just look for TrueHD, DTS-MA, and uncompressed LPCM, things get a lot better. But it would have been much simpler if they just went with uncompressed LPCM and were done with it. No decoders or HDMI 1.3 necessary and every player would be able to access it and every outboard component hdmi 1.1 and above would be able to receive it.

Of course, then the tracks would never fit comfortably on a 15GB or 25GB disk...

[BIZILL]

HMMMMMMMMM>.......

$599

Panasonic DMP-BD10A

With 7.1 analog out....and upconversion....and DVD-A......and 1080i over component...and DTS-HD, TrueHD.....and PCM 7.1 with DAC.

i almost went for that over the ps3. i wanted the 7.1 analog out for my h/k 7300 so it didn't go to waste. but i suppose eventually i'll have to go with hdmi 1.3 receiver and separate amps. the ps3 is the most future-proof player still. the panny you listed here will never be able to reach profile 1.1 or any other. and THAT is another story in itself of which we will not get in to.

[cheddar]

Yep, the new 7.1 lossless tracks are coming out. Good tech showing for New Line. Should be good news for LOTR.

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/New_Line/Disc_Annoucements/New_Line_Brings_Pans_Labyrinth_to_Blu-ray,_HD_DVD/1039

Great timing as blu-ray players are coming out that actually unlock the DTS-MA track as I noted in the #26 post to this thread. Can't wait to actually hear DTS-MA in 7.1 action...