Friday is where its at...

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

2 Ch, Stereo Subwoofers...

Going to be interesting to hear true seperation of bass...

Who has ran stereo subs before?

[hoosier21]

I stereo subs, I like it very much. I know bass is non directional, but you can feel which side the bass is coming from.

Enjoy

[appadv]

I have, but they were two different subs.

Great stereo separation, though.

[PolkThug]

The problem is that you can wind up with nulls at certain frequencies due to cancellation.

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

Shall see...

Going to run a chart to see what the response looks like and will try to correct as needed.

Any setup tips? Not like I have many placement choices though haha

[appadv]

Shall see...

Going to run a chart to see what the response looks like and will try to correct as needed.

Any setup tips? Not like I have many placement choices though haha

I'd try the two stereo subs in the FRONT of the room (to the left and right of the window) and in the REAR of the room w/phase inverted 180deg.

[Face]

I'd try the two stereo subs in the FRONT of the room (to the left and right of the window) and in the REAR of the room w/phase inverted 180deg.
+1....

[jm1]

Have a look at this (http://www.harman.com/wp/pdf/multsubs.pdf) article for setup tips.

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

Umm...

The idea of having subs in the rear of the room is cool...

But lol - I only have room for two in the front... lol

[Shizelbs]

I'd like to try that at some point. Would be interesting.

[halo]

MikeC78 had dual SVS Ultra's at the Chicagoland PF. Now THAT was INSANE :eek: :cool: :D

[jm1]

MikeC78 had dual SVS Ultra's at the Chicagoland PF. Now THAT was INSANE :eek: :cool: :D
That what I have in my room, two PC-Ultra's. I use an active crossover between the preamp and power amp and have the subs located behind the Dynaudio monitors. Provides amazing results.

[appadv]

Umm...

The idea of having subs in the rear of the room is cool...

But lol - I only have room for two in the front... lol

Then you need to get a bigger room...how about the den?

[Early B.]

Then you need to get a bigger room...how about the den?


Agreed. You're probably wasting money with HUGE dual subs in such a small room. You won't be able to truly appreciate how good your system is. The soundstage will be compromised no matter what you do.

[appadv]

You won't be able to truly appreciate how good your system is. The soundstage will be compromised no matter what you do.

+1

My system sounded fairly good in a 8.5*10 bedroom and very good in a 12*20 living room, but when I moved it to a larger 21.5*22 room it sounded amazing! Mind blowing is a better way to describe it...

Why don't you move it to the den so that your family can enjoy the system?

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

my family dosnt appreciate it.

I'll move to a bigger room when I move out.

Until then, my small room will do. I have components that can be in a large room. Thats all that counts.

And yes, I know my room dosnt allow my system to shine. ;)

[Ricardo]

Small room is not a problem; I have a 10x13 with big full range speakers and sound is the best I've had. I'm sure the 14 different acoustic panels help though. ;)

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

Yeah I definitely gotta add some more acoustic panels, particularly in the front corners.

Honestly, while my system is big - its not over-bearing in my room. To me its oddly balanced.

I dont know, I've heard the pluses of having a larger room, much better staging and seperation comes to mind. But right now, I'm going to maximize my room out for what it is, bottom line.

I guess it comes down to, why buy small things that can't be used in a big room because you are in a small one because when you get to a big room, you will have to buy new stuff... lol

[appadv]

my family dosnt appreciate it.

I'll move to a bigger room when I move out.


I thought they did...

My family really appreciates it; they use the system more than I do.

[reeltrouble1]

Sid,

I have decided the only thing that is really going to work for you is eight subs.

You need four for the floor, two front and back to cover the horizontal plane and four, two front and back downfiring from the ceiling to cover the vertical.....now you are covered.

Get to work.

RT1

[TroyD]

..or you could get speakers that don't need subs.

Just a thought. :D

BDT

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

having so many subs is probally just a phase for me, haha

However, one plus I like to having subs is the ability to tune it with the EQ's, since I would never put an EQ on my mains.

But I would love to have a pair of fully full range towers.

Your AR's were beastly. Bass was absolutely amazing on those.

I would love to have a subwoofer per channel. So eight subs isnt to far off.

Have larger subs for the mains, a dedicated sub to each channel, center, surrounds, etc etc

Then two LFE subs... so that would be 7 subwoofers, go 7.1 --- and have 9 subs

Granted, I am joking. HAHA

But still ;)

Its fun none the less. I love subwoofers. They are just a fun part of the hobby for me.

[TroyD]

Rock on, Trey....enjoy!

BDT

[reeltrouble1]

Sid,

Believe it or not my recommendation actually comes straight from Polk Paul, of course it is about buying product.

Just last night I juiced the Amazings listening to In the Flesh, those four subs per speaker kick ass.

RT1

[Music Joe]

I've had 3 different powered towers and 2 passive towers all full range inroom.

The largest with 500/1000 watt powered 15"s (side firing)always felt like the slab was being tapped with a sledge hammer but, it wasn't part of the mix. With one woofer shut down it still had the same effect ,just less so.
If the crossover was turned up into the 40hz range double kick drums mixed one left channel and one right had a nice right-left boxing punch effect.
Set lower and the low octave became disconnected.The mids,the tweeters and even the Carver sourced internal switching amps where really good but the cabinets and 15's is where corners where cut.
Price point design physics strikes again. 2-3 grand (new)offers many mighty fine almost full rangers but far fewer (new)full rangers.

I guess I've added nothing really since my example wasn't excellent powered sub pairs vs excellent single.

I wouldn't want to detract from the one voice aspect of my current fullrangers in a medium sized room. The stage is so stable and coherent, I can turn and move my head a lot yet it all stays in perfect place. I look at the speakers right there yet the sound exsists in various size focused locations all over the the room. The same model speaker in a large room staged better but sounded more anemic in the lows.
Only the phasey-ist studio effects are diffuse. Again in my medium 2000 cu ft room the lowest bass of the 6/6.5" drivers handle all but the most powerful up loud trip hop,pop,synth, keys ,bombastic levels of big kettle and native drums.
By shutting the doors I can get more quantity but, the lowest octave pays for it. I'm thinking a fullrange(lower 20's)coupled with one well matched and powerful low distortion sub would be the way to go. Would it give me more dynamics at all volumes w/o destroying the balance I have?

Towers run sans crossover with the sub taking over where they leave off makes sense to me. A powered unit capable enough to need no boundary enforcement with some nice room matching electronics.

I would like to try out a Fathom or DD-15. Anyone here hear those in home or in good room conditions?
I haven't heard any of the expensive top subs in home.

3 grand could get 2 nice subs but, should be able to get one great one.

[appadv]

Enjoy! I know you're excited...

[engtaz]

Sid,
Have you heard of the SubMersive1 by Mark Seaton? If so what your opinion.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=759877&page=1&pp=30

Thanks

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

I have not, I've read alot about it and seems really cool.

[appadv]

Sounds like a nice sub. Cool.

[Music Joe]

Sid,
Have you heard of the SubMersive1 by Mark Seaton? If so what your opinion.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=759877&page=1&pp=30

Thanks

Thanks, nice link...very interesting read. Bookmarked it and Seatonsound to see if that BMF goes into production or a Submersive in Rosewood markets. The prices look exceptional and Velodyne looks like it's out.

[appadv]

So - how is it?

We want pics! :)

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

First time I've walked away today...

Took a bit to dial it in...

Basically had to reverse the phase of the right one to center it. Weird.

But man is it fast and textured. Transparent to my ears, pretty neutral. I like it.

[Early B.]

OK, Sid, so describe the differences in sound between the single sub and the stereo sub setup...

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

I think the biggest difference...

Is locating the bass guitar or bass instruments - where as before, since bass instruments are in the upper octaves of bass... they are placed in the stage, rather than kind of scattered out. And I had to turn it down quite a bit to blend it, kind of did it by ear -- which allows for extremely fast, clean bass.

I am very impressed.

[appadv]

Cool. Is there anything else that changed?

[engtaz]

gOOD SHOW

[Early B.]

I think the biggest difference...

Is locating the bass guitar or bass instruments - where as before, since bass instruments are in the upper octaves of bass... they are placed in the stage, rather than kind of scattered out. And I had to turn it down quite a bit to blend it, kind of did it by ear -- which allows for extremely fast, clean bass.

So what?

I'm not trying to piss in your Koolaid, Sid, but I want to get a good perspective on your experience with stereo bass because I want to go in that direction someday. However, I'm trying to determine if the differences you're hearing are subtle or profound. Locating bass instruments may be interesting, but is it a significant improvement?

You were getting extremely fast and clean bass with a single sub, so is your system even faster and cleaner? Has the soundstage widened? Have you experimented with standing the subs on their side? Some VMPS owners feel there's an improvement in doing so.

Thanks.

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

After listening more this morning

The biggest difference is you cannot localize the bass. Its impossible. The soundstage is much better, dosnt lean towards any side, no side is fuller or lesser than the other. It sounds "perfect" its a seamless blend. The midrange sounds better since the bass is more evenly dispersed. It just sounds... better. It sounds "right"...

The bass drum is beefier, hits harder, tighter. It sounds cleaner than before and quicker.

I guess it would be like combining your right and left signal into your right main, then adding another. Mono to stereo.

The difference is pretty big.

I wouldn't go back to a mono subwoofer.

It just tightens up the staging and makes it sound fuller. No real locational sounds at all...

If you can do it, do it. You wont regret it.

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

the best sounding location is the subwoofer firing to the other wall, like firing torwards each other. I only tried that with one sub though, dont think it would work to well.

[tonyb]

Early,your speaks dig pretty deep,why are you looking to go that direction?
Sid,by your own description,haveing one sub in a 2-channel system,the bass is localized.Which is why I always said I didn't like a sub for 2-channel.Idealy,a sub for every channel would be what it takes,but who has the room and coin for that.But,no matter,as long as your a happy camper,all is good.Just don't crank it too much or you'll be re-plastering walls.:D

[appadv]

After listening more this morning

The biggest difference is you cannot localize the bass. Its impossible. The soundstage is much better, dosnt lean towards any side, no side is fuller or lesser than the other. It sounds "perfect" its a seamless blend. The midrange sounds better since the bass is more evenly dispersed. It just sounds... better. It sounds "right"...

The bass drum is beefier, hits harder, tighter. It sounds cleaner than before and quicker.

I guess it would be like combining your right and left signal into your right main, then adding another. Mono to stereo.

The difference is pretty big.

I wouldn't go back to a mono subwoofer.

It just tightens up the staging and makes it sound fuller. No real locational sounds at all...

If you can do it, do it. You wont regret it.

Good advice. I'd like to go this path too - the cleaner sound, not being able to localize bass, and the improved soundstage just makes things better.

Congrats!

[Spacedeckman]

Agreed. You're probably wasting money with HUGE dual subs in such a small room. You won't be able to truly appreciate how good your system is. The soundstage will be compromised no matter what you do.

I'm not going to argue on the "huge" part, but if you have big subs in small rooms, you need two or sometimes more.

Acoustics can be a strange thing.

Mark

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

my main goal with my current setup is have stuff that I wont have to upgrade in the future.

So, having huge dual subs is retarded in my current room, but I dont plan to live there for forever either. Makes no sense to buy two subs I cant use in a larger room.

I have the Largers turned up 1/8 of the way on the Paradigm Xover and its monsterous in my room. So clean.

[Early B.]

After listening more this morning

The biggest difference is you cannot localize the bass. Its impossible. The soundstage is much better, dosnt lean towards any side, no side is fuller or lesser than the other. It sounds "perfect" its a seamless blend. The midrange sounds better since the bass is more evenly dispersed. It just sounds... better. It sounds "right"...

The bass drum is beefier, hits harder, tighter. It sounds cleaner than before and quicker.

I guess it would be like combining your right and left signal into your right main, then adding another. Mono to stereo.

The difference is pretty big.

I wouldn't go back to a mono subwoofer.

It just tightens up the staging and makes it sound fuller. No real locational sounds at all...

If you can do it, do it. You wont regret it.


Thanks, Sid. This explanation helps alot.

[Early B.]

Early,your speaks dig pretty deep,why are you looking to go that direction?

Yeah, I know. I'm a basshead, so what can I tell ya? If I can get the benefits that Sid got, it may be worth it. However, I'm a bit hesitant about adding an external crossover. I just don't like the idea of extra electronics in the signal path. That's why I don't use a DAC, DIP, transport, or other such contraptions. They probably work fine, but I like to keep it simple.

I'd really like to try dual stereo subs on my own system. Sid, can you ship yours to me for a week or so?;)

[Early B.]

my main goal with my current setup is have stuff that I wont have to upgrade in the future.

OK, so no more upgrades for you. Are you done yet?

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

Brad,
Just get a Crown series with HiQnet ---

Built in crossovers, EQs, phase, limiters, delays, synth...

Nothing in the signal path, all done internally.

The Paradigm is a good volume control though.

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

Once the Odyssey Monos get here - I'll be done from an electronics stand point...

Some misc cables, acoustic panels and a LFE subwoofer - I'll be pretty done.

I'm very happy with the performance.

[appadv]

Once the Odyssey Monos get here - I'll be done from an electronics stand point...

Some misc cables, acoustic panels and a LFE subwoofer - I'll be pretty done.

I'm very happy with the performance.

Are you ever done? :)

Good to hear that you're pleased with the performance. Now just add one more sub (LFE), and you'll be done!

For now...

[engtaz]

no one is ever done. OK it could get that way vs money. LOL


Congrats Sid

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

Thanks

Well, thats kind of the way I see it.

The one thing I could HONESTLY see myself getting a larger room is a pair of mains like the Super Towers. However, they wouldnt fair to well in my small room. But I could see eventually doing something like that.

The Odyssey Amps that Klaus specced out for me - will be able to push absolutely ANYTHING I can fathom. So amp is covered, the preamp - I will always use in conjunction with a HT preamp.. so no upgrades needed for it... the CDP, eh, could sell it, but how much better can it get and look as cool?

Subs? haha, doubt I'd need anymore for music. Definitely for HT though.

[appadv]

The new SVS PB13-Ultra would be good for HT. I heard a prototype at CES and was flabergasted/amazed/wowed by the performance.

[Early B.]

Brad,
Just get a Crown series with HiQnet ---

Built in crossovers, EQs, phase, limiters, delays, synth...

Nothing in the signal path, all done internally.

Do you have the mains high passed?

[Vr3MxStyler2k3]

I high passed them at 50hz through the Paradigm.

Works better for HT and dosnt rob the mains of the texture for things around 60-90hz...


The Paradigm does not seem to take away any details. But like I said, the main reason is movies - seems like at higher volumes the 7u tries to do to much at times and crossing them over really helps that obviously.

But the Paradigm is basically a 300 dollar volume control and crossover. And sounds great.

But all the Crown processing is done for the subs.

PS: High passing the mains also kind of goes along with the idea I'm doing with having stereo subs. I am basically using the Larger subs as a "woofer" in a pair of mains. Just extending the Mains, coupling the two together. So it would make no sense to make the 7u do alot of bass work, even though it can.