Let's talk Power Cords!

[pearsall001]

What's your take on the PC debate. Do you really think they make a difference & if so what did you notice performance wise. From what I've read the general consenses is that a PC will have a bigger impact on your system than IC's. I myself am in the "I believe camp". What are you running now & let's hear your preference. I know this has been talked about before but I felt like striking up the conversation again. I myself have had great results with Signal cable & LAT PC's. I just might be in the market for a 3' cord down the road. Any other brands I should consider? Any nay-sayers head on over to Audioholics forum & bother them!!

[disneyjoe7]

Standing by for fall out ;)

[pearsall001]

Standing by for fall out ;)

I got my helmet on!!! :D

[Early B.]

I switched out my PS Audio PCs recently. My system sounds better than ever. Problem is -- you gotta try several brands and price points before you can really determine what works for you. Same issue with everything else in audio, I guess.

I have no clue why PCs make a difference. I just know that they do.

Compare the silver PCs with copper ones.

[Midnite Mick]

I posted a thread of a PC that I tried a little while ago. They are just haunting me they made my system sound so good. I am getting close to pulling the trigger, just a little longer.

I posted some of my thoughts on it here as well as some others that have done the same.

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/frr.pl?rcabl&1182917153&read&3&4&

Mike

[janmike]

I have 4 or 5 different ones and will try these when the 2CH finally gets put together. One brand I will purchase is Virtual Dynamics, just because I can and want to experiment. This will kick it up a notch.

[F1nut]

It's my experience that IC's make a bigger difference. That said, I like PS Audio Statement power cords.

[pearsall001]

I have 4 or 5 different ones and will try these when the 2CH finally gets put together. One brand I will purchase is Virtual Dynamics, just because I can and want to experiment. This will kick it up a notch.

I've been on the lookout for a used Virtual Dynamics David Series or one of their higher line PC's. They're tough to find & pretty expensive. I picked up the David series digital & RCA cables for a really good price at usedcables.com. If their PC's are anything like their other cables...well enough said.

I've also heard a lot of good things about PS Audio PC's like F1nut mentions. Worth checking out.

[PolkThug]

Detachable power cords suck, they add extra connections into the electrical path which cause sonic veils to be lowered. If the power cord if made of a different substrate of metal than the connections in the wall socket, add one more veil of sonic blockage. If the male IEC connector on your gear is yet another combination of metal, add another veil. So count on your detachable power cord adding 3 veils of sonic blockage, which will make your gear sound worse, which believers will perceive as 'different' and 'better'.

However, if you can get all the connections to match, 3 veils will be lifted.

Good luck!

[Midnite Mick]

I have a statement that could be available if you want to wait until I get the Thunderbirds Phil. When the time comes I could just ship it for you to try if you like.

Mike

[hearingimpared]

Just like any other tweak there is a cumulative effect here. I have five power cord upgrades in my rig. Two Signal Cable Magics, two Musical Concepts and one Timbre DAC "heavy stock" power cords.

I need three more to complete having all the my gear with upgraded power cords.

If I had to pick out one piece of gear that would benifit the most from a power cord upgrade, I wouldn't hesistate to choose the preamp! That one peice of gear IMO sets the flavor for the rest of the rig.

Being that this subject has been done to death, I believe everything written by people who have tried power cord upgrades whether it made a difference or not to their rig. It has for mine mainly in the lower noise floor category.

[Zero]

As a bona fide audiophile who is unashamed to admit past experimentations with odd system tweaks, I reserve little doubt that a solid power cord can yield gains. That said, I am also unashamed to admit that the how’s and why’s of high quality power cords manages to allude me.

It’s all been said before, so what I’m about to rant on about is certainly anything but new to most people’s ears that have been down this path before. Typically, the electrical wire in the average home spans well over 100ft in length. That’s just the stuff coming from your circuit breaker. The main electrical line which your home draws its power from is often thousands of feet long. If that’s not enough, the wire in the home is typically your ho-hum 12gauge copper wire that is at best, only modestly shielded. Most audiophiles wouldn’t touch that stuff with a 10ft poll. That begs the question; how can the last few feet of that chain make a difference? While I believe that there are many things in this world (that often fall under what we call ‘understood’ science) are left with doors wide open – I also believe that you can’t make somethin’ outta nothin’.

Yet, for the sake of argument – let’s say that for known and certain reasons that those last feet do matter. We then fight another problem; most electronics compromise the power signal the second after it passes through the IEC when it hits the circuit board. Very, and I mean very few components, even in the high end, run the power cable directly to the power supply. I will make ideal filtering, which is expensive to implement and subsequently rare, an exception.

Armed with what I consider to be acceptable common sense – along with a very loose idea on electronics – power cables have a lot going against them. Yet, I cannot possibly discount them simply because it’s a concept that I (and many others) cannot reach my head around. That’s a bit crass. While this great mystery may be revealed to us all at a later time – I will have to remain on the sidelines, scratching my head and at the same time, hoping to experience this gain in performance for myself. Thus far, my experiences of audible benefits as they pertain to cables have been with interconnects followed by speaker wire. Some will cry foul, snake oil, and begin to suggest its all imagination. One things sure, if it is imaginary, it’s pretty darned convincing. I guess I’m a simple guy, because if I can hear the difference and feel its worth my hard earned green – than that’s all the convincing I really need.

[sucks2beme]

Go with the simple and sure fire. Run one or more 20 amp dedicated circuits to your system. More amps on demand = more bass and dynamics.

I wouldn't invest in a cord upgrade without doing this first.

[disneyjoe7]

I feel the LOVE Baby :)



Do you feel the LOVE?

[mulveling]

To be honest, I'm a bit of a PC skeptic. Yes, some of that is blind prejudice coming from a "how stuff works" perspective, a little closed-minded for sure :D

I won't totally dismiss them until I spend serious effort comparing several in my system - but in reality the funds are pretty much always going to be allocated to something else before PC's, and the time is going to be allocated for just enjoying the music :p

I used to have a couple really nice LAT PC cords (not quite whole-system, though) and nothing really struck me there, though no formal comparisons were done. I HATE A/B'ing for subtle differences when I'd rather be enjoying the music. If I do give it another go in the future - I have to figure if the difference can't be heard on my SOTA > Zana Deux > Qualia 010 setup (insane resolution, freedom from room acoustics) - then these ears of mine aren't ever gonna hear it :)

On the one hand it's certain that some peoples' ears are far more capable than mine at discerning certain differences; on the other hand I'm pretty sure my ears aren't less than avg in any major area, so if I can't hear it then most people can't either :)

[hypertone]

Somebody should market audiophile in-wall electrical wiring, power outlets and circuit breakers. :)

[DarqueKnight]

Typically, the electrical wire in the average home spans well over 100ft in length. That’s just the stuff coming from your circuit breaker. The main electrical line which your home draws its power from is often thousands of feet long. If that’s not enough, the wire in the home is typically your ho-hum 12gauge copper wire that is at best, only modestly shielded. Most audiophiles wouldn’t touch that stuff with a 10ft poll. That begs the question; how can the last few feet of that chain make a difference?

If your took a 1000 mile trip by car, 970 miles of which were over a coarse gravel road and the last 30 miles were over silky smooth asphalt, would it make a difference in how you felt when you arrived at your destination? Would it make any difference in your car's performance?


Yet, for the sake of argument – let’s say that for known and certain reasons that those last feet do matter. We then fight another problem; most electronics compromise the power signal the second after it passes through the IEC when it hits the circuit board. Very, and I mean very few components, even in the high end, run the power cable directly to the power supply.

Better power cables present a lower resistance path for the power supply to draw power through. The less resistance the power supply meets when trying to suck power out of the wall, the less stress on the power supply. The less stress on the power supply, the better it can supply clean DC power to the amp/preamp/source component circuits. It is like the difference between drinking water from a 1/16" diameter straw (like those little coffee cup straws) or a 1/2 inch diameter straw.

Even if there is some current constriction on the other side of the IEC jack, a lower resistance path between the wall socket and the component can still be beneficial. Again, consider the example of sucking water through a straw. However, this time assume that the person drinking has a constricted, sore throat. Sucking water through a tiny coffee straw will add to the indivudual's discomfort because their throat muscles will constrict further as they try to exert enough suction to overcome the resistance of the small straw. This will make the water drawn into the mouth even more difficult to swallow. Sucking water through a straw of sufficient diameter to minimize tensing and further contriction of the throat will allow more water to swallowed. Drinking from a glass will would cause almost no further constriction and the amount of water swallowed would be maximized.

[mulveling]

Problem is, the power draw requirements of your amp and the resistance of even a crappy 18ga stock cord is nowhere near the levels required for results anything like your straw analogy - most likely an order of magnitude away. Plus there are the reservoir caps in the power supply...and the fact that even a crappy PC is going to measure a fraction of an ohm...far less than the 8 ohms limit to get the max 15 amps out of a 120V socket (OK - 4 ohms for you lucky bastards with a dedicated 30 amp circuit :p).

The theoretical explanations aren't going to work for this PC thing. Just gotta rely on the ears for this one.

[disneyjoe7]

I don't feel the improve is just because you replaced a 18g PC with a 12g PC, it's more then that. Not sure what but same day I will buy on just to take it apart, well that's how my mind works. I got to see how that works.

[Early B.]

Somebody should market audiophile in-wall electrical wiring, power outlets and circuit breakers. :)

Not sure about circuit breakers, but audiophile eletrical wiring and power outlets have been on the market for many years. The electrical wiring is too expensive, though.

[Early B.]

Go with the simple and sure fire. Run one or more 20 amp dedicated circuits to your system. More amps on demand = more bass and dynamics.

I plan to do this in the next few weeks.

[bikerboy]

I found that mid bass boom or bloom was eliminated by changing to better pc. I havent used any higher (>$150) priced types but the VH Audio wire and connectors have been great. Topend has smoothed out depending on the cord. Have used signal, ps audio, and vh audio so far. I have 2 dedicated 12 ga runs in the man cave. I wish I had run 3, one for amps, one for analog and one for digital. Would have been cheaper/better than a power conditioner.

[BottomFeeder]

"Somebody should market audiophile in-wall electrical wiring, power outlets and circuit breakers."

+1!

[Deadof_knight]

I am in the believer camp as well , all though I have yet to pull the trigger if they make the same difference as the speaker and interconnect cables did SHAZAM it should be great !

[rskarvan]

I've got a request into the power company to re-wire the neighborhood with Cardas silver and to upgrade the transformer on the pole to a torroidal design.

[GV#27]

Somebody should market audiophile in-wall electrical wiring, power outlets and circuit breakers. :)Im not sure if they still do ,but did PS Audio market an "Audiophile"version of the hospital grade Hubbell outlets.

[Early B.]

Here's the dedicated "audiophile" in-wall cable:

http://www.jpslabs.com/powercord.shtml

Scroll half way down the page...

[John K.]

It isn't helpful to attempt to introduce irrelevant analogies involving roads, straws, hoses, etc. instead of considering the simple technology of power transmission which is actually involved. As was mentioned, the resistance of the typical power cord is on the order of a tenth of an ohm and can't have an appreciable effect on the amount of power coming out of the wall; no "choking" is possible. Typical power cords are rated to carry over 1,000 watts and are satisfactory for even uses(e.g., hairdryers, hotplates)which are far more demanding than audio equipment. Even an application of simple logic should indicate that designers who create audio components selling for hundreds or even thousands of dollars wouldn't then sabotage their own creation by saving a dollar or so with a power cord that didn't allow optimum performance.

Beyond technology and logic, in practice there's also no factual basis for power cord illusions. Although the phrase "Just trust your ears" is seen frequently, there appears to be a reluctance to trust the only way that this can actually be done: a closely controlled double-blind test. Some audiophiles seem to have about as much enthusiasm for this as a vampire has for daylight. One of such power cord blind tests (http://hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/feature-article-blind-test-power-cords-12-2004.html) drew a fair amount of attention not too long ago. It can be noted that the author of the article is a "believer" who seemingly never tried a bizarre audio application that he didn't like, and his lack of enthusiasm for the results isn't a stunning surprise.

Both theory and practice lead to the same result in this area.

[dorokusai]

I've stopped believing in double blind tests as well. It's all BS in a different venue and is still inherently flawed.

I don't care much about this debate anymore and have been running on personal satisfaction at this point. Isn't that the point? Argue all you want, cable this, cable that, who gives a shit.

[hypertone]

I totally agree with JohnK. But I'll bet a typical power cord resistance is even lower than a tenth of an ohm, I'll bet its only 10 milliohms. And one amp at 120V is 1200 watts, so most amps even though considered high current, aren't drawing much amperage from the mains, due to it being higher voltage. Increase the V and you decrease the I. That's why they up the voltage to travel long distances, so there are fewer losses over the wire.

Just do the math I=V/R and you will realize that even a 1 ohm power cord can still provide a ton of current.

Audio gear runs on DC anyway, which is a flat line on an oscilloscope. It doesn't really matter what goes into the diodes, a flat line is a flat line; they all sound the same. Silent.

[hearingimpared]

It isn't helpful to attempt to introduce irrelevant analogies involving roads, straws, hoses, etc. instead of considering the simple technology of power transmission which is actually involved. As was mentioned, the resistance of the typical power cord is on the order of a tenth of an ohm and can't have an appreciable effect on the amount of power coming out of the wall; no "choking" is possible.

With all due respect, I'll take the analogy of a PhD in EE any day. Not to mention my own experience and education in electronics as well as my ears. My power cord upgrades were not purchased by me, they came as a result of a trade with a friend or came with a particular piece of gear. I have no emotional attachment to the PCs nor real money invested in them either. So when I hear the noise floor in my rig getting lower due to five great PCs I want to complete the circle.

Besides I can't give any credibility to someone who thinks Mono Price cables sound the same as even the lowliest of audiophile grade cables. Sorry!

[DarqueKnight]

Typical power cords are rated to carry over 1,000 watts and are satisfactory for even uses(e.g., hairdryers, hotplates)which are far more demanding than audio equipment.

Really? Lets see, a hairdryer gets hot and blows air. A hotplate just sits there and gets hot. An audio component must cleanly reproduce a complex electrical signal for the purpose of recreating a three dimensional aural illusion, i.e. MUSIC. Maybe your audio gear just sits there, gets hot, and blows air, in which case, I agree that a standard UL rated cord will suffice.

It isn't helpful to attempt to introduce irrelevant analogies involving roads, straws, hoses, etc. instead of considering the simple technology of power transmission which is actually involved.

I can understand where the analogy would not be helpful to you personally. However, there are others who might find the analogy useful. For example, electrical engineers have used water flow analogies for electrical current flow for as long as there have been electrical engineers.

Even an application of simple logic should indicate that designers who create audio components selling for hundreds or even thousands of dollars wouldn't then sabotage their own creation by saving a dollar or so with a power cord that didn't allow optimum performance.

Really? Let's look at some statements from two respected high end audio manufacturers.

The following statement appears in all the current PS Audio owner's manuals for their electronic components:

"While the supplied power cable is adequate for the task it is not going to provide the best performance."--Taken from page 5 of the GCA Amplifier Series manual. GCA amplifiers range in price from $2,295 to $3995.

The following statement appears in all the current Pass Laboratories owner's manuals for their electronic components:

"Power Cords: Pass Labs provides a power supply cord that meets all legislated requirements for the market in which the product was originally sold. If you choose to substitute an after-market product we urge you to choose one that is fully safety rated by the necessary local authority."--Taken from page 7 of the $18,000 X600.5 amplifier manual.

Even an application of simple logic should indicate that the application of premium parts in all areas and aspects of a component's design will yield audible benefits.

The manufacturers of high quality audio gear fully expect that some, maybe most, purchasers of such equipment will throw the stock cord away...just as the manufacturers of high performance automobiles fully expect that some, maybe most, purchasers of their vehicles will replace the stock wheels and tires with something else.

Beyond technology and logic, in practice there's also no factual basis for power cord illusions. Although the phrase "Just trust your ears" is seen frequently, there appears to be a reluctance to trust the only way that this can actually be done: a closely controlled double-blind test. Some audiophiles seem to have about as much enthusiasm for this as a vampire has for daylight.

You sound bitter.

[hearingimpared]

Good show Doc!

[DarqueKnight]

Besides I can't give any credibility to someone who thinks Mono Price cables sound the same as even the lowliest of audiophile grade cables. Sorry!

Now..now...if someone says they can't hear a difference between a brand "X" cable and an entry level audiophile cable, who are we to argue? They probably really don't hear a difference, in which case they are blessed because they are spared the expense of searching for that holy grail in good sound. Just because a pair of ears can't hear a difference does not mean there is no difference. My eyes can't tell the difference between ultraviolent rays and x-rays, but I assure you there is a huge difference. (There I go with them analogies again.)

[hearingimpared]

Ha ha ha. The problem is that I'm not sure if some IC and PC naysayers have actually tried to hear a difference due to the obsession with double blind tests. I really have no problem, as I stated in an earlier post, if someone has tried and says they heard no difference. . . that tells me they are trusting their ears.:eek: :D

[PolkThug]

Besides I can't give any credibility to someone who thinks Mono Price cables sound the same as even the lowliest of audiophile grade cables. Sorry!

You'll put down a monoprice cable you've never even tried??! Welcome to the Zero Credibility Zone! Please review some more cables you've never tried and let us know the results.

[hearingimpared]

You'll put down a monoprice cable you've never even tried??! Welcome to the Zero Credibility Zone! Please review some more cables you've never tried and let us know the results.

Wow you must have really rifled through my cable box earlier without the dog even barking Mr. Credibility!

[Lasareath]

If your took a 1000 mile trip by car, 970 miles of which were over a coarse gravel road and the last 30 miles were over silky smooth asphalt, would it make a difference in how you felt when you arrived at your destination? Would it make any difference in your car's performance?


What about when you arrived at your destination you ran over your mother-in-law. Would it matter if the road was bumpy or smooth?

I think that instead of buying PC's, that we should be buying power conditioners with battery reserve so that the conditioner can output a constant & clean 120 Volts.

Would you need better PC's if the power was clean and always @ 120 Volts?

Sal

[DarqueKnight]

The problem is that I'm not sure if some IC and PC naysayers have actually tried to hear a difference due to the obsession with double blind tests.


Mannnnnnnn....those audio ABX tests would have some credibility if they were done in a truly controlled environment. The way they are always set up, they are no more accurate than the Psychic Hotline and are strictly for entertainment purposes only.

If you show me a picture of an office building and then another picture of the same building with subtle architectural changes and ask me to pick out all the differences, I, and others, might score no more than 50%. If you show the same two photos to the building's architect, he or she would probably spot all the differences in 10 seconds flat. He or she might also spot some differences they weren't on the test. Why? Because they have a lot of familiarity with the subject matter.

Piling a group of people into a room to listen to music that they are not very familiar with on equipment that they are not very familiar with is not my idea of a controlled environment.

I have stated my protocol for listening evaluation in previous posts. Briefly, what I do is:

1. Use source material that I am very familiar with.
2. Use a chart to record the relative positions of sounds, voices and instruments within the soundfield.
3. Record the quality of sounds, voices, and instruments within the soundfield (volume, grainy, bright, tizzy, slow, fast, 3-dimensional "weight", etc.).
4. Record the variances, if any, in the soundfield characteristics when an equipment change is made.

I have never once read a case of these types of quantitative and qualitative measurements being applied to an audio ABX test. They just bring some folks in and have them write down some "comments". Yeah, that's real scientific.

[F1nut]

I did a double blind test with some power cords recently and discovered that one tasted like Pepsi, while another tasted like Coke, but my favorite one tasted like Dr. Pepper. Don't you want to be a Pepper too!?!

[PolkThug]

Dr Pepper > *.*

[DarqueKnight]

I have it on good authority that some reviewers "taste" some coke (with rum) before every review.

[pearsall001]

That's it!! :mad: I'm working on a completely wireless system. No more IC's or PC's or speaker cables!!! :rolleyes: It's gonna be a challenge but I'll give it my best shot. The only concern I have is the air quality in my room. I'll have to install air-purifiers so my wireless signal is passing thru nothing but the cleanest air. I don't want my signals getting dirty & grungy before they reach my gear. And as far as a fair A/B test, that'll be simple...listen to a familiar piece with the air-purifiers on then turn them off. That'll be real quick & easy. Then we can really judge if the quality of the air makes a hoot of a difference. Hmmm...I wonder if anybody else is working on this? Just think of the money we'd save!! The only thing left to argue about would be the differences in the air-purifiers & which one does a better job of just letting the music flow. Man we could argue about anything in this hobby!

[dorokusai]

Wireless is the future.

[Early B.]

Wireless is the future.

If so, then some asshole is gonna make scientific claims that air isn't a good conductor of sound and promote the need for audiophile quality air purifiers.

[Yashu]

My take is that if you do not have some serious power conditioning, or more importantly, if you do not have have an electrical regenerator, then the last couple feet of electrical wiring after traveling thousands of miles through transformer after transformer and through your neighborhood and then house wiring and finally hitting your outlet... those last couple feet are not very important.

At best you are not going to color the electricity anymore, and at worst you are going to add yet another coloration to the 60hz sinewave after traveling all those miles through god knows what.

So... unless you are 100% sure that you are getting a good 60hz sinewave, like from a regenerator and you want to preserve *that* signal, then a megabuck powercord is just a bunch of snake oil.

Let me put it another way. Many audiophiles have used Home Depot heavy duty "orange" extension cord wire for our speakers, and the sound is said to be pretty darn good... well if that cable is good enough for A/C to your speakers, why is that type of cable (common in stock cords) insufficient for the A/C from your wall that only has to go a few feet? Remember also that speaker wire must carry a much more sensitive A/C signal, where the A/C from your wall is 60hz all the time.

I consider Expensive ICs to work somewhat like an EQ, coloring the signal to your tastes, and one could apply the same logic to power cords, except that your ICs aren't attached to thousands of miles of outdoor electrical cable, transformer after transformer and the wiring in your walls.

Expensive powercords certainly can't "fix" your signal...

[kingkip]

Screw the PC, just pipe some 12-3 romex straight out of the wall into your gear. Seems to be the best option as a PC would just "color" whatever the romex is bringing to it anyway.

[heiney9]

My take is that if you do not have some serious power conditioning, or more importantly, if you do not have have an electrical regenerator, then the last couple feet of electrical wiring after traveling thousands of miles through transformer after transformer and through your neighborhood and then house wiring and finally hitting your outlet... those last couple feet are not very important.

At best you are not going to color the electricity anymore, and at worst you are going to add yet another coloration to the 60hz sinewave after traveling all those miles through god knows what.

So... unless you are 100% sure that you are getting a good 60hz sinewave, like from a regenerator and you want to preserve *that* signal, then a megabuck powercord is just a bunch of snake oil.

Let me put it another way. Many audiophiles have used Home Depot heavy duty "orange" extension cord wire for our speakers, and the sound is said to be pretty darn good... well if that cable is good enough for A/C to your speakers, why is that type of cable (common in stock cords) insufficient for the A/C from your wall that only has to go a few feet? Remember also that speaker wire must carry a much more sensitive A/C signal, where the A/C from your wall is 60hz all the time.

I consider Expensive ICs to work somewhat like an EQ, coloring the signal to your tastes, and one could apply the same logic to power cords, except that your ICs aren't attached to thousands of miles of outdoor electrical cable, transformer after transformer and the wiring in your walls.

Expensive powercords certainly can't "fix" your signal...

Last time I checked any gear worth it's salt should have excellent power regulation. Sure the re-generator is a great idea, if not a bit overpriced. But if you have a quality designed piece of equipment with ample power regulation a PC could possibly help get the most out of your system. You certainly don't need a re-generator or conditioner to realize a positive outcome.

Of course if the gear is mediocre and has poor regulation and an insuffecient power supply and lots of current limiting circuitry (which most middle of the road gear have) then a PC probably isn't going to make a difference, especially for the cost involved. A turd is a turd so the money spent on a PC for turd equipment is better used as savings for a nicer piece of equipment.

H9

[Yashu]

If the better piece of equipment has the ability to properly handle the straight wall A/C after traveling thousands of miles through all sorts of outdoor elements, countless transformers, neighborhood poles, through your breaker box and throughout the walls of your house, then having a few feet of 24k solid gold power cords plated with platinum in a silver lining is not going to make it any easier for that said equipment to do that work.

If the power cord is of good copper at an acceptable gauge based on current draw, then it should do the job... otherwise you are only transferring all that dirty grungy power and noise .00001% better than the stock one.

The only time that .00001% matters is when you are regenerating that 60hz sinewave in a controlled condition where getting that signal to your equipment as un-modified as possible matters.

If you are getting a drastically different sound over a reasonably built stock cord, when you are plugging it right into the wall, then you need to consider what the heck it is really doing to your A/C signal... it may be coloring it considerably MORE than the stock one (and perhaps that is the idea... it works for Bose, coloring audio to sound more "pleasant" to mass market).

However, you have the right idea... equipment should be designed to handle A/C from the wall in a proper manor, although many times it is not. This is why I consider money spent on a regenerator better spent, if you really want to work with good a/c.

[heiney9]

Again your point is moot. A properly designed power section in any high end piece of equipment can take that well traveled, grungy power and noise and turn into enough of a pure source to sound great w/o the use of a conditioner or re-generator. Could these pieces help?........ of course they could help but the impact becomes less and less as the piece of gear it's hooked to becomes better and better.

This is the reason certain pieces of equipment cost hundreds vs. thousands. You make it sound like the electricity coming from a wall socket is never any good and is always in need of conditioning and filtering. A good PS section of any design that knows what they are doing effectively diminishes the effect the somewhat poor electrical signal coming from the wall plate.

Of course there are always extremes and one can have a special circumstance where even if using very well designed equipment one or both a conditioner or re-generator can help.

For the record PC's can make a difference but not as much as interconnects or speaker cables.

H9

[Face]

You'll put down a monoprice cable you've never even tried??! Welcome to the Zero Credibility Zone! Please review some more cables you've never tried and let us know the results.
I agree! Monoprice cables are great if your system is way too bright and the gain on your sub is way too high. They're also great if you like the sound of a bed comforter over your speakers. :D

Screw the PC, just pipe some 12-3 romex straight out of the wall into your gear. Seems to be the best option as a PC would just "color" whatever the romex is bringing to it anyway.
Now that's funny!

[hearingimpared]

I agree! Monoprice cables are great if your system is way too bright and the gain on your sub is way too high. They're also great if you like the sound of a bed comforter over your speakers. :D


Now that's funny!

Uh oh, be careful, he may have rifled through your cable box and missed the Mono Price cables in yours too! BTW they work great connecting the old Onkyo receiver to the old Sony 5 CD disc changer and the very old tape deck in my 10 year olds bedroom!:D

[BottomFeeder]

If so, then some asshole is gonna make scientific claims that air isn't a good conductor of sound and promote the need for audiophile quality air purifiers.

+1 !!!

Don't you just know it's TRUE!!!

& Many will buy them!

& Then we'll debate them, too!

[Lasareath]

Let's put a pool together and we'll buy the 12 best Power Cords and everyone can get their turn to try them out.

We can sell off the ones we don't like and buy up the ones we do.

Heck, if we sell ourselves good enough the Power Cord companies may just lend us the cables for review.

Sal

[Yashu]

For the record PC's can make a difference but not as much as interconnects or speaker cables.

I can agree to this.

[treitz3]

I consider Expensive ICs to work somewhat like an EQ, coloring the signal to your tastes, and one could apply the same logic to power cords, except that your ICs aren't attached to thousands of miles of outdoor electrical cable, transformer after transformer and the wiring in your walls.
In my experience, they [power cords] don't color the sound. They bring out the sound and improve the lower frequencies. A PC upgrade made such a difference on my sub [tightening the bass/mid-bass and improving the integration between the sub and speak's], it stayed there instead of the intended location [that being the CDP].
Expensive powercords certainly can't "fix" your signal...
That's obvious. They can, however improve the overall experience [sound] given the right gear.

[Yashu]

Your stock cord may have been just really bad quality. Subs use a lot of power, and if the stock cord was of a small gauge with low quality wire, it may have been converting some of that power into heat and EMI rather than getting it all to the sub.

There is always an argument for good quality components, even PCs.

[know nothing]

Screw the PC, just pipe some 12-3 romex straight out of the wall into your gear. Seems to be the best option as a PC would just "color" whatever the romex is bringing to it anyway.

Why wouldn't this work? After all, without some kind of storage system in the current path, an 8 gauge power cord can't produce more current than is delivered to your socket by the 12 gauge wires in your wall.

After giving this a lot of thought over many years, I will tell you why I think Romex wouldn't provide an adequate solution -

1. You would now have unshielded high current A/C signal moving around in and amongst your low current ICs, other power cords and very near the circuit boards, DACs, capacitors, resisters, etc. of your ensemble of electronics equipment. At the very least, it makes sense to have the A/C power coming from the wall to your gear through a well shielded "pipe", something lamp cord is definitely not, and neither are most stock grounded power cords provided by the manufacturers with modern audio gear. Sure these cords make the equipment perform to spec when it is the only piece of gear on the test bench. Stack 2, 3, or 4 pieces together in your rack, all drawing current at different rates with cords draped, coiled and laying everywhere, and it is easy to see how interference could cause real world audio performance to differ from factory bench tests, regardless of how clean the power is coming out of the wall or your power conditioner. This is in part why having a outboard power supply can dramatically improve performance.

2. Furthermore, it is conceivable that complicated wiring geometries and exotic materials might have an impact on how well the current stays within the "pipe", reducing effects on other equipment, and on how well the effects of other current paths and resulting magnetic fields affect A/C moving through the "pipe" to its target gear.

So, can after market cords affect sound in a positive way? I have heard it with my own ears and believe that they can. In theory, anything that can be done to keep the A/C from the wall to your gear from "polluting" other cables or gear in your rack, and that can prevent this initial current stream from being polluted by other fields in the immediate area is a good thing . At the least, one would think that a good shielded cord with an electron carrying capacity similar to 12 gauge Romex would be an improvement over a narrow gauge unshielded wire operating in a moderate to highly complicated audio system. If adding to the wire's gauge, using exotic metals and/or complex braiding patterns adds noticeably to system dynamics and clarity by keeping potentially noise-causing electromagnetic fields in or out of the system post socket, then who are any of us to argue with tangible results if we notice them?

I say listen and buy what you think makes a difference. If you can afford the most expensive cables and that makes you happy, then good for you. If you cannot hear any difference in your system between custom PCs and OEM cords, then save your money and you will be happy. kn

[DarqueKnight]

I think you know a lot.:)

[Yashu]

Yes... PCs are more of a very fine tuning for your system. If you have a regenerator, filter, or dedicated line, getting that 60hz sinewave to your gear as undistorted as possible is definately something that you are going to want to do. Consider PCs speaker cables for 120v 60hz signal... but with much more current.

My aversion to PCs is not that they do not make a difference, it is the mindset that the "last few feet" are going to make all the difference. Every component in the chain matters... including what is behind the outlet...

[Sherardp]

I learned about PCs here on this forum. My 1st experience has been a pleasant one to say the least. I havent jumped up with the big boys yet (200-1000 bucks). I started out with SignalCable and love the results so far. As for more input I cant say a whole lot, Im still learning, but again from what I have heard, I have to say I enjoy. If you dont notice an improvement, at least you'll have a nice cord in the end, that was my take.

[mantis]

Jumped in this one late but for the hell of it here it goes.

I have always been a firm believer due to experience that power conditioners make a noticable difference in ones system. Not to mention the protection benefits are basically priceless. Over the many years I have been into this hobby, only over the last 5 or 6 years have I explored the Power cord upgrade.
For me, an upgraded powercord even if it provides no sonic benefits, the ability to have a shorter or longer cord depending on need a a beautiful thing for wire management. I don't like to make antennas out of any of my cables/wires. Having the cable look good is the smallest benefit( I used to care about the look of my cables and now I could care less).
After going though a few different power centers, I ended up with the Panamax M5500ex which I'm completely happy with. It has the ability to change the powercord and I did as the factoy one was like 10 feet long and I only needed 5 feet so...
I have also Installed a 20 amp deadicated to my gear with a PS Audio Hosiptal grade outlet.
I have had many different powercords. I have done the cable swap program and tested some very nice power cords. They all seem to change the tone of the system depending on where you place them. I did notice with some cords no difference over the factory cord and some I noticed a change.
After the dust settled in all my demos I found Kimber Kable and Audioquest to make the best sounding powercords in my system. I used to use a mix of the 2 brands but now I'm all Audioquest. Audioquest is a great cable company and all there cables even there entry line cables are fantastic.

Are powercords worth there retail price??? I'm not sure as I think you can do so wire management and use quality IC's and get better results. But adding in the powercords also make for an overall better experience. I'm a firm believer that any gain is good gain. But some of these powercords price tags are not justified by there gains added in the system. It comes down to balance once again, the right level cord for the system will probably up the value. Also finding the right mix of cables.

[Midnite Mick]

These are all great points. However, if it is simply shielding how come I can hear differences in different type of ends? I also can hear differences in different constructions.....I am sure most higher end PC's would be shielded well and yet I still hear differences. In fact I tried 1 highly regarded PC and it ended up choking my system?

I hope this isn't coming across in a defensive and/or offensive manner...I am just posing the question.

Thanks,
Mike

[Texas42]

Personally, I'll just stick with my Tice Audio alarm clock and green CD marker...;)

[GV#27]

Personally, I'll just stick with my Tice Audio alarm clock and green CD marker...;)And don't forget to use Armour All to clean your CD's.;) :D

[Texas42]

And don't forget to use Armour All to clean your CD's.;) :D

Oh, I always do that first. Then put my CD player on some Shun Mook Mpingo discs (made of rare African ebony, I'll have you know). It feels like a veil has been lifted from my music with more sparkling highs and deeper lows.

[hearingimpared]

know nothing my behind!:D

[Yashu]

Don't forget your Clever Little Clock somewhere in the room and some Brilliant Pebbles set about your speaker(s)

[know nothing]

These are all great points. However, if it is simply shielding how come I can hear differences in different type of ends? I also can hear differences in different constructions.....I am sure most higher end PC's would be shielded well and yet I still hear differences. In fact I tried 1 highly regarded PC and it ended up choking my system?

I hope this isn't coming across in a defensive and/or offensive manner...I am just posing the question.

Thanks,
Mike

I was responding to the suggestion that you should just hard wire your gear to the wall using Romex, or at the very least, build some power cords out of Romex. I have seriously considered this, thinking Romex must work pretty good to get the A/C to your outlet, why not use it to get the A/C to your gear? I tried to debunk this idea as best I could, although in all honesty, I haven't tried it yet!

As for A/C and IEC plugs, one could assume that some models make a better no loss connection with the wall socket and the female IEC socket on your gear. Also, some plugs may be better shielded than others - I know you can spend hundreds of dollars just on A/C and IEC plugs alone.

As for why we experience differences in performance resulting from different wiring configurations, gauges and alloys used in different PCs - if it doesn't have anything to do with shielding - your guess is a good as mine. All I know is that I think some cords work astonishingly better than others, and shielding is the only possible factor I can understand for that difference. I am sure there are other factors, but they are beyond my rudimentary grasp.

I must say that I find it remarkable the effect that a few passive strands of wire placed in various portions of an audio chain can have on what comes out of your speakers or headphones. I don't pretend to understand fully why this occurs, but I cannot deny that it "works". Unfortunately, I also think the positive effects of ICs, power and speaker cables are highly system dependent, and what works really well for one person may not work as well or sound as good to somebody else. That is why I recommend trying out different cables to see what works for you. And if OEM cords and hardware store cables work best or as good, you will save enough money to buy a lot more music or videos. kn

[Yashu]

Yeah I don't quite understand why ICs sound so different... I liken them to an electronic component... they have capacitance, inductance, resistance... all cables do to an extent.

PCs because they are behind the PSU of your gear, and if your PSU is well enough designed, I figure that from a cost standpoint, the money makes a greater difference in other areas.

I don't doubt that there is a difference... since your electrical power is essentially an audio signal with a ton of current, but that so far the difference in sound from a GOOD quality (but not expensive aftermarket) PC and some of the exotic designs is something I have not noticed too much. I don't have thousands to spend on cords... and maybe a $3000 cord would make a large difference, but there are $500 dollar upgrades that make a much greater difference than a $500 dollar PC would give me.

[hearingimpared]

When the Music Hall CD 25.2 CDP ($600) was reviewed by Sally R. in TAS she said it was a really good sounding player but it really struted its stuff when she installed a $350 power cord on it. Now I'm not one to doubt what a reviewer heard however, it really doesn't make any sense to me to purchase a piece of gear that needs an after market power cord half again as much as the initial cost of the unit to make it really shine.

My point is if an after market PC can completely change a mid-fi unit into sounding like a high end one well I think it would be worth a 30 day trial even at the risk of tying up some funds for that month.

On the other hand would a $1000 CDP sound as good or better than the Music Hall CDP & aftermarket PC at $950. See my problem isn't doubting the validity of the $350 PC it is why I would want to buy a piece of gear that isn't good enough on its own.

Then the following comes into play;

Every high end piece of gear that I own recommends and I quote the user manuals of two, "the highest quality ICs" and an "equally high quality" aftermarket power cord should be installed for the best performance. I don't ever remember seeing Timbre or Spectral selling ICs & PCs so I have to believe that these well received companies know what they are talking about when it comes to the performance of their products.

[markmarc]

For those of you who haven't seen the Sept. Issue of Affordable$$Audio, I did a semi-scientific review of a set of cables in comparison, to a higher quality stock, and a true generic pc.. I made multiple measurements of the amount of hiss coming out of the tweeter (both speakers) using different cables with a db meter. The result, I record lower number with the quality cable.

Just my two cents.

[treitz3]

Can I say that measurements yield results sometimes, but that the end result as to what hits your ears is the final test? What is more important?

[know nothing]

When the Music Hall CD 25.2 CDP ($600) was reviewed by Sally R. in TAS she said it was a really good sounding player but it really struted its stuff when she installed a $350 power cord on it. Now I'm not one to doubt what a reviewer heard however, it really doesn't make any sense to me to purchase a piece of gear that needs an after market power cord half again as much as the initial cost of the unit to make it really shine.

My point is if an after market PC can completely change a mid-fi unit into sounding like a high end one well I think it would be worth a 30 day trial even at the risk of tying up some funds for that month.

On the other hand would a $1000 CDP sound as good or better than the Music Hall CDP & aftermarket PC at $950. See my problem isn't doubting the validity of the $350 PC it is why I would want to buy a piece of gear that isn't good enough on its own.

Then the following comes into play;

Every high end piece of gear that I own recommends and I quote the user manuals of two, "the highest quality ICs" and an "equally high quality" aftermarket power cord should be installed for the best performance. I don't ever remember seeing Timbre or Spectral selling ICs & PCs so I have to believe that these well received companies know what they are talking about when it comes to the performance of their products.

The bottom line is how good does your system sound to you. You may have trouble explaining to your better half, to your best friends, and to wire skeptics on the Internet why you thought it was necessary to spend more than half of what you paid for your CD player on a "piece of wire" to hook it to the wall (and the another half on two more pieces of wire to hook it to your pre amp!!). But if it makes your $600 CDP sound as good TO YOU as a $2000 CDP with its stock cord attached, then it is probably worth it. If on the other hand, all you can hear is the echo coming from your pocket where your money used to be, then maybe you should save your scratch for a better source. I cannot overemphasize the need to test new gear including cables in your own system playing in your own listening space. I suggest keeping an open mind and don't let other people (except your spouse!!!) tell you what "makes sense". kn

PS - there have been many recommendations on this forum for products like SignalCable that may provide over 90% of the benefit of well designed cables at only 10% of the cost of some of the more exotic products currently on the market. Try as many kinds of wire as you can. Some stores will lend you their demos with a credit card deposit, and some if they know you will loan them out for free.

[F1nut]

I don't ever remember seeing Timbre or Spectral selling ICs & PCs so I have to believe that these well received companies know what they are talking about when it comes to the performance of their products.

I know Spectral recommends MIT cables for their gear.

[SCompRacer]

Don't forget your Clever Little Clock somewhere in the room.....

I’ve never tried the Clever Little Clock; however my Little Epox Clock transformed my system. It is more musical and live-sounding, and it even improved my vison. The best placement for me is on the top shelf of the rack, at a slight angle just to the right of the turn table and slightly ahead of my digital source power supply. Setting the temp display to metric improves the mid-range ever so slightly. Duracell Procell batteries improve the bass and last longer than Energizers. The soundstage improves when I turn the display light on, but it is on a timer and shuts off after a few seconds so I just leave it off.

[know nothing]

I’ve never tried the Clever Little Clock; however my Little Epox Clock transformed my system. It is more musical and live-sounding, and it even improved my vison. The best placement for me is on the top shelf of the rack, at a slight angle just to the right of the turn table and slightly ahead of my digital source power supply. Setting the temp display to metric improves the mid-range ever so slightly. Duracell Procell batteries improve the bass and last longer than Energizers. The soundstage improves when I turn the display light on, but it is on a timer and shuts off after a few seconds so I just leave it off.

The relativistic small clock theory of improved sound reproduction, or E=M$2, is unproven at best, but if you hear a difference (or is that the silence coming from your domestic partner because you finally bought something for your stereo that actually does something useful, like tell time), then more power to you. kn

[Yashu]

If you turn the clock radio on to a crappy commercial "alternitive rock" station (preferably clearchannel owned) and listen for a few minutes, and then immediately turn it off as you press play on your HiFi source with a well recorded album, you will notice even further improvement!

[hearingimpared]

I know Spectral recommends MIT cables for their gear.

That would be correct.

[hearingimpared]

I’ve never tried the Clever Little Clock; however my Little Epox Clock transformed my system. It is more musical and live-sounding, and it even improved my vison. The best placement for me is on the top shelf of the rack, at a slight angle just to the right of the turn table and slightly ahead of my digital source power supply. Setting the temp display to metric improves the mid-range ever so slightly. Duracell Procell batteries improve the bass and last longer than Energizers. The soundstage improves when I turn the display light on, but it is on a timer and shuts off after a few seconds so I just leave it off.

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA ROTFLMAO LOL!!!

[SCompRacer]

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA ROTFLMAO LOL!!!

:D

Busted, eh? I exaggerated a bit Joe. I am still partially color blind and need my corrective lenses. OK, all my little Epox clock does is help me log accurate system hours.