Teflon and Polystyrene Capacitors In SDA Speakers.

[ka7niq]

I read with some interest a recommendation against the installation of Teflon or Polystyrene capacitors in Polk SDA and SRS Speakers.
The person advising against using these caps said he talked to someone in Polk Engineering.
He says Polk Engineering advised against the use of these caps, because they are too "fast".
This person instead suggests the use of Solen "fast caps". http://www.solen.ca/caps/mkp3.htm

This did not play well with me, and so I decided to go to Polks Head Engineer with the question.
God forbid, dont want to use "too fast" a cap, LOL
Don't want my electrons to get a "speeding ticket" ?

Here is what I found out, for the SDA and SRS Replacement Crossover Capacitor Knowledge Base.

I just made a call to Brad Starobin at Polk.
Here is what he said about capacitors.
He felt electrolytic are fine bypassed with Mylar for lower end product.
Polks better speakers use all Mylar or film he said.
I point blank just asked him about NOT using Teflon or Polystyrene as Dark Knight suggests. :confused:
He said Teflon and Polystyrene are excellent caps with increased transparency and smoothness in the top end. :)
He said it would be fine to use them, but they are expensive. :(
You may verify my call to Brad if you wish.
I told him I was from the Polk forum, and my name is Chris.

[heiney9]

HOLY BAT CRAP, you just don't give up :eek: .

[Ricardo]

Masochism is a strange sickness. You need help, though I'm sure you know that.

How many threads do we need to shut down here????????????

[ka7niq]

HOLY BAT CRAP, you just don't give up :eek: .
Just adding MY findings to the SDA Database Heiny.

[heiney9]

I read with some interest a recommendation against the installation of Teflon or Polystyrene capacitors in Polk SDA and SRS Speakers.
The person advising against using these caps said he talked to someone in Polk Engineering.
He says Polk Engineering advised against the use of these caps, because they are too "fast".
This person instead suggests the use of Solen "fast caps".

This did not play well with me, and so I decided to go to Polks Head Engineer with the question.

Here is what I found out, for the SDA and SRS Replacement Crossover Capacitor Knowledge Base.

I just made a call to Brad Starobin at Polk.
Here is what he said about capacitors.
He felt electrolytic are fine bypassed with Mylar for lower end product.
Polks better speakers use all Mylar or film he said.
I point blank just asked him about NOT using Teflon or Polystyrene as Dark Knight suggests. :confused:
He said Teflon and Polystyrene are excellent caps with increased transparency and smoothness in the top end. :)
He said it would be fine to use them, but they are expensive. :(
You may verify my call to Brad if you wish.
I told him I was from the Polk forum, and my name is Chris.

Again I ask, what's your point other than to discredit a person who has done years of research, experimenting and talked with engineers from Polk in order to update and in many instances make the vintage SDA speaker an even better sounding and performing speaker than when it was introduced.

Pathetic.

H9

When exactly did you install Teflon and Poystyrene caps in your 1 oand only pair of very recently aquired SDA's. DK has more working knowledge about SDA's than you can ever hope to have.

[heiney9]

Just adding MY findings to the SDA Database Heiny.

They aren't your findings it was told to you.

[DarqueKnight]

Here is what I found out, for the SDA and SRS Replacement Crossover Capacitor Knowledge Base.

I just made a call to Brad Starobin at Polk.
Here is what he said about capacitors.
He felt electrolytic are fine bypassed with Mylar for lower end product.
Polks better speakers use all Mylar or film he said.
I point blank just asked him about NOT using Teflon or Polystyrene as Dark Knight suggests. :confused:
He said Teflon and Polystyrene are excellent caps with increased transparency and smoothness in the top end. :)
He said it would be fine to use them, but they are expensive. :(
You may verify my call to Brad if you wish.
I told him I was from the Polk forum, and my name is Chris.

Ka7niq,

It is not clear from your post if Brad Starobin is explicitly saying that it is ok to use teflon and polystyrene caps in SDA's. According to your quote, Brad mentions that they use mylar film and electrolytics in Polk's current speakers. The advice I received in 1990 against using polystyrene and teflon caps was specific to SDA's.

Please call Polk engineering again and clarify with Brad if he recommends the use of polystyrene and teflon capacitors in SDA loudspeakers. Better yet, ask Brad to post his response here in the forum.

If indeed, polystyrene and teflon caps can be used in SDA's, it would be good information to know and I will certainly incorporate it in any future SDA modifications. I may even go back and retrofit my current SDA collection. Thanks.

[jakelm]

So Sollen caps are bad?

Im sorry but Im alittle lost here (which in all rights, I should be, as alot of us are), but...

Is what Brad said ..good or bad?????

is this a follow up on the post you wrote about talking to someone about keeping the excact same caps in a xover? Not changing caps out, to diffrent types?






...I hate watching a debate and not knowing what is about....

[avguytx]

OMG....another worthless post started.

[billbillw]

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f94/billbillw/beat_deadhorse.gif

[shadowofnight]

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f94/billbillw/beat_deadhorse.gif................................ ...

[ka7niq]

Yes, it was told to me by Polks chief engineer.
But Heiny, know that I am no stranger to speakers.
I have used Teflon bypass and Polystyrene, as well as paper/oil, motor start, etc, etc.
DarqueKnight, who publishes the SDA Compendium, recommends against the Teflon and Polystyrene Caps.
Someone could read and follow this SDA Compendium suggestion, and possibly deny themselves the transparency made possible by these fine capacitors.
DarqueKnights suggestions came about because of a conversation with a Polk engineering employee, not Polks chief engineer.
I just wanted to be see what Polks chief engineer had to say about this controversy.
Like I have always said, when you publish opinions, you leave yourself open to counter ones.

[jakelm]

Teflon works great!!!!

Polystyrene?...Hmmmmm....I always had a problem with my eggs sticking...

[heiney9]

Yes, it was told to me by Polks chief engineer.
But Heiny, know that I am no stranger to speakers.
I have used Teflon bypass and Polystyrene, as well as paper/oil, motor start, etc, etc.
DarqueKnight, who publishes the SDA Compendium, recommends against the Teflon and Polystyrene Caps.
Someone could read and follow this SDA Compendium suggestion, and possibly deny themselves the transparency made possible by these fine capacitors.
DarqueKnights suggestions came about because of a conversation with a Polk engineering employee, not Polks chief engineer.
I just wanted to be see what Polks chief engineer had to say about this controversy.
Like I have always said, when you publish opinions, you leave yourself open to counter ones.

Yep you've pontificated about your self procalimed knowledge about all things audio for appox 250 or your 500 posts since joining. We all know what you think you know!!!

The only controversy is the one inside your deluded head.

I'm sure the underling's (engineers) are no match for the Chief. Thank god you went right to the top to figure this one out. The knowledge you have uncovered is invaluable...............thank you Oh Great Special K.

Of course nothing has changed in 17 years since DK inquired.:rolleyes:

H9

[jakelm]

Yep you've pontificated about your self procalimed knowledge about all things audio for appox 250 or your 500 posts since joining. We all know what you think you know!!!

I'm sure the underling's (engineers) are no match for the Chief. Thank god you went right to the top to figure this one out. The knowledge you have uncovered is invaluable...............thank you Oh Great Special K.

Of course nothing has changed in 17 years since DK inquired.:rolleyes:

H9


I laughed so hard...I just farted....:p

[ka7niq]

So Solen caps are bad?

Im sorry but Im a little lost here (which in all rights, I should be, as a lot of us are), but...

Is what Brad said ..good or bad?????

is this a follow up on the post you wrote about talking to someone about keeping the exact same caps in a xover? Not changing caps out, to different types?






...I hate watching a debate and not knowing what is about....
No, Solen caps are not bad.
What Brad Starobin said is not bad.
It does contradict what Darkknight said though.
Perhaps Darkknight may want to rethink his position on these caps, that is all.

[Joe08867]

OMG, Why doesn't it stop. I have a dog like this. You take his toy and put it up on a shelf and all night long he will stare at the shelf.

Give me the toy, give me the toy.

K please just give it up. And it does not contradict what DK said at all. It is just another opinion. You are nobodies Daddy on this one so for the love of all that is holy stop, PLEASE!

Man like a headache that you can't get rid of. Start a fight somewhere else Special K......................

[Poee7R]

Yes, it was told to me by Polks chief engineer.
But Heiny, know that I am no stranger to speakers.
I have used Teflon bypass and Polystyrene, as well as paper/oil, motor start, etc, etc.
DarqueKnight, who publishes the SDA Compendium, recommends against the Teflon and Polystyrene Caps.
Someone could read and follow this SDA Compendium suggestion, and possibly deny themselves the transparency made possible by these fine capacitors.
DarqueKnights suggestions came about because of a conversation with a Polk engineering employee, not Polks chief engineer.
I just wanted to be see what Polks chief engineer had to say about this controversy.
Like I have always said, when you publish opinions, you leave yourself open to counter ones.


My counter opinion is that you're an asshole.


Dave

[ka7niq]

Ka7niq,

It is not clear from your post if Brad Starobin is explicitly saying that it is ok to use teflon and polystyrene caps in SDA's. According to your quote, Brad mentions that they use mylar film and electrolytics in Polk's current speakers. The advice I received in 1990 against using polystyrene and teflon caps was specific to SDA's.

Please call Polk engineering again and clarify with Brad if he recommends the use of polystyrene and teflon capacitors in SDA loudspeakers. Better yet, ask Brad to post his response here in the forum.

If indeed, polystyrene and teflon caps can be used in SDA's, it would be good information to know and I will certainly incorporate it in any future SDA modifications. I may even go back and retrofit my current SDA collection. Thanks.
Brad did make a distinction between high end and lower end product.
He said he felt that electrolytics with a mylar bypass were good enough for lower end product.
He prefers film caps for the higher end stuff like the LSI's.
I did not mention SDA speakers as such.
Since you know more about Polk speakers then I do, is there something special about the SDA Speakers ?
They just seem like Polks to me with extra dimensional drivers, some progressive line source stuff, etc.
The drivers seem to be used in other Polks, but I may be wrong ?

Brad did not say this, but I take his suggestions to include the SDA Speakers when he spoke of "higher end product".
How about you or I email him, and ask if I can post his response in the forum ?

[ka7niq]

OMG, Why doesn't it stop. I have a dog like this. You take his toy and put it up on a shelf and all night long he will stare at the shelf.

Give me the toy, give me the toy.

K please just give it up. And it does not contradict what DK said at all. It is just another opinion. You are nobodies Daddy on this one so for the love of all that is holy stop, PLEASE!

Man like a headache that you can't get rid of. Start a fight somewhere else Special K......................
No one is starting any fights but you.
If you don't like reading my posts, please ignore them, move on to another thread.
Don't you realize by now I do not care what you or anyone thinks.
I just keep on keeping on.

[ka7niq]

Of course nothing has changed in 17 years since DK inquired.:rolleyes:

H9
It has now :)

[steveinaz]

Disregard.

[ka7niq]

Teflon works great!!!!

Polystyrene?...Hmmmmm....I always had a problem with my eggs sticking...
Here is an interesting read I Googled.

Capacitors DO make an audible difference !

Electolytic and tantalum capacitors have very poor audio characteristics and should not be used in the audio signal path. Replacing electrolytic capacitors in the audio signal path of your amplifier or preamp with film capacitors will improve sound quality. Polyester (Mylar) capacitors make a significant sound improvement and are the minimum quality audio capacitors that should be used in the audio signal path. Better are polypropylene capacitors, and even better are polycarbonate capacitors when available. Polycarbonate film used to make polycarbonate film capacitors has been discontinued for several years, only a few companies have remaining stocks of polycarbonate film which is expected to be exhausted in the next year or two. Polycarbonate film capacitors are preferred to polypropylene capacitors when available because they have a very balanced, musical sound with very little coloration. Polystyrene (also called styrene, styroflex, or styrol) are in many areas superior to polycarbonate, and are mostly new old stock as are our polystyrene, the polystyrene film has needed for manufacture of Polystyrene capacitors has not been made for years. The very best audio capacitors are polytetrafluorethylene (Teflon) capacitors, but they are generally very, very expensive and available in only a relatively few sizes.

[Face]

Hmm..you say caps make a difference but cables don't? :rolleyes:

[BaggedLancer]

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f94/billbillw/beat_deadhorse.gif

That horse looks dead......:confused: :confused:

[jakelm]

So the Solen Polyproylene is better than the electrolytic, that I replaced in my 7's xover?

But not better than the older Maylar, that I replaced as well?

http://www.partsexpress.com/solen-metallized-polypropylene-capacitors.cfm

[jdhdiggs]

Come on guys, give it a break. I saw absolutley nothing wrong with Ka's post. Is this not an "audio" forum? Let the man talk.

+100%

Actually, this thread was, imho, one of the worst ones he started as it called out DK, but then DK kind of did the same thing. Personally, I'd like to hear what he has to say and confirm and refute it based on fact and personal experiences and not just name calling. If he has half the experience he says, it should be a little more interesting than the typical drivel that the forum puts out.

[heiney9]

Come on guys, give it a break. I saw absolutley nothing wrong with Ka's post. Is this not an "audio" forum? Let the man talk.

He called DK out and he went back and edited his post to make it look like he was just matter-of-fact inquiring. That was the reason for my post, not to persecute the guy.

If he had just made the statement without trying to discredit DK none of this controversy would exist. But he keeps lobing them up there people are going to keep smacking them out of the park.

H9

[steveinaz]

H9, I noticed the slight jab as well, but DK took the high road--I think we can too.

[jakelm]

So its .....

Best to worse in audio signal

Teflon
Polypropylene
Maylar
Electrolytic

[GV#27]

So its .....

Best to worse in audio signal

Teflon
Polypropylene
Mylar
Electrolyticyes.

[polktiger]

I will admit to not knowing much, but I do have a question for this thread...

How long has the chief engineer, Brad, been with Polk? Since Polk has not really sold any SDAs in many years, has he actually been involved in active engineering of the SDA speakers?

Maybe Brad has been there for 20 years and knows all about SDAs in intricate detail. But he may actually not be intimately familiar with all the engineering of a speaker he no longer sells. (Actually, I hope he spends all his time on current models and not SDAs unless they are planning to reissue the SDA.) By comparison, I doubt NASA's cheif engineer can give you detailed engineering specs of the Apollo lunar landing modual since the project has been dead for many years

[danger boy]

So its .....

Best to worse in audio signal

Teflon
Polypropylene
Maylar
Electrolytic

cool. this is more of the info that I would like to see in this thread, with so many of us facing or wanting to upgrade/update our crossovers... i'd like to know which caps are the premium and will give the best sound and which are ones to avoid.

say for instance, I wanted to rebuild the crossovers in my SDA 2B's, which ones should I be looking at? what type did Polk use in them 20+ yrs ago, and what ones are considered to be the best for updating old crossovers... regardless of price. I want my 2B's to be top notch sounding... within reason of course. ;)

[heiney9]

cool. this is more of the info that I would like to see in this thread, with so many of us facing or wanting to upgrade/update our crossovers... i'd like to know which caps are the premium and will give the best sound and which are ones to avoid.

say for instance, I wanted to rebuild the crossovers in my SDA 2B's, which ones should I be looking at? what type did Polk use in them 20+ yrs ago, and what ones are considered to be the best for updating old crossovers... regardless of price. I want my 2B's to be top notch sounding... within reason of course. ;)

DB, did you ever get the compendium? All that info is in there, plus since you have the 2b's you should do the 4.1TL upgrade. :)

[danger boy]

H9, I do have the Compendium.. it's a great read :)

i'll be honest, I don't know what the 4.1TL upgrade would involve. I would think new tweeters and crossover mod's

I am running them using the RD0-194's currently.. and once broken in... they sound great now.

[ka7niq]

So the Solen Polypropylene is better than the electrolytic, that I replaced in my 7's xover?

But not better than the older Maylar, that I replaced as well?

http://www.partsexpress.com/solen-metallized-polypropylene-capacitors.cfm
An argument can be made two ways in response to your questions.
Capacitor vs Capacitor, the Solens are better/longer lasing then any electrolytic, and better then Mylar too.

Here is where there is a discrepancy.
The crossover filters were designed around the original capacitors.
Change them, and you change the "voice" of the speaker, sometimes for the better, sometimes not.
I have played with and restored many speaker crossovers.
Often times there was a huge improvement in going to "better caps".
B&W does not suggest changing types of capacitors when replacing.
They caution against it.

I have had mixed results changing caps, but have no experience on SDA Speakers.
I did insert a clarity cap in my Polk RT 2000P crossovers, but admit the crossovers were brand new, and I never listened with the stock Mylar.

I have found that new caps of any kind sound better then real old ones.
But sometimes this is simply because the old ones were bad.

I redid some Spica speakers with all Solens and Bennic Polys.
Sounded great.
Just for kicks, replaced all the expensive caps with Electrolytic of the same brand as stock.
Image was much better, and so was the sound.'
WHY ?
Because Jon Bau of Spica USED Electrolytic of a certain brand in the original design.
The crossover was optimized for THOSE Caps.

[heiney9]

H9, I do have the Compendium.. it's a great read :)

i'll be honest, I don't know what the 4.1TL upgrade would involve. I would think new tweeters and crossover mod's

I am running them using the RD0-194's currently.. and once broken in... they sound great now.


Yes, my understanding is a slight x-over reworking and the RD0198-1's for the 4.1TL upgrade. I couldn't remember if you had already purchased the RD0194-1's yet, so you are set. Solen's and Mills should be next on your list, excellent results w/o breaking the bank.

[jakelm]

So being it s a different cap, it might effect the sound and xover points, so a re/evaluation of the size/value of the cap might have to be done?

Thus by changing the type of cap, the value might have to be changed as well?

If my origianl Maylar cap was 34uF, then by changing to a Polypropylene cap the value might have to be changed to 30uF or 40uF, to get back to the original xover point?

[shadowofnight]

Brad did make a distinction between high end and lower end product.
He said he felt that electrolytics with a mylar bypass were good enough for lower end product.
He prefers film caps for the higher end stuff like the LSI's.
I did not mention SDA speakers as such.
Since you know more about Polk speakers then I do, is there something special about the SDA Speakers ?
They just seem like Polks to me with extra dimensional drivers, some progressive line source stuff, etc.
The drivers seem to be used in other Polks, but I may be wrong ?

Brad did not say this, but I take his suggestions to include the SDA Speakers when he spoke of "higher end product".
How about you or I email him, and ask if I can post his response in the forum ?

There is nothing magical with the SDA's that would make changing out an electrolytic/mylar/poly cap with a teflon cap IF it would improve the same circuit used in a non-sda crossover.

Crossover component selection is like every other selection made pertaining to ANYTHING designed....its based on the almighty $$$$$ You target to your audience price range and build accordingly....guess what...as the speakers increase in price range....better capacitors show up in the crossovers...they know which ones sound better. Polk saved money in the best places possible and the easiest to upgrade......they build very good enclosures and use butyl rubber surrounds even on the entry level lines ( How many foam surrounds last 20 years ...not very many )...and go cheaper in the easiest place to upgrade for better sound.

On the mentioned SDA line....they even took it to the extreme...making extremely well braced cabinets...really nicely designed drivers as well as crossovers that had a lot of engineering and testing time into them. Now if they had used capacitors that cost 29 dollars each instead of 2.90 each...most of us wouldnt have been able to put them in our homes...period. At the time they were out in the market , I could only afford my first set of CRS's and dreamed of the big boys....now I can afford the big boys and upgrade what Polk saved on back then to get them out to the masses...letting me do minor modifications to get them to sound their absolute best.

Polk knew what crossover components sounded best.....they just couldnt use the absolute best components and get them out to the target audience they wanted to address.

[steveinaz]

This stuff is all about 3 feet over my head, but interesting nonetheless.

[ka7niq]

I will admit to not knowing much, but I do have a question for this thread...

How long has the chief engineer, Brad, been with Polk? Since Polk has not really sold any SDAs in many years, has he actually been involved in active engineering of the SDA speakers?

Maybe Brad has been there for 20 years and knows all about SDAs in intricate detail. But he may actually not be intimately familiar with all the engineering of a speaker he no longer sells. (Actually, I hope he spends all his time on current models and not SDAs unless they are planning to reissue the SDA.) By comparison, I doubt NASA's chief engineer can give you detailed engineering specs of the Apollo lunar landing module since the project has been dead for many years
Really, Matt himself would be THE one to ask.
I considered myself Lucky to even speak with Brad.
I would think Polks chief engineer would be familiar with Polks ex flagship.
The same way a head mechanical engineer at GM Tech Center would be familiar with Zora Arkus Duntov and the old Corvette.

I did not limit myself too SDA type speakers in my conversation with Brad.
The SDA is a dynamic speaker, a lot like it's fellow Polk stablemates.

A good capacitor is a good capacitor, and as long as it's other characteristics like ESR, etc, etc do not throw the crossover filter off, it can sound good on any driver in any speaker, SDA or not.

[ka7niq]

There is nothing magical with the SDA's that would make changing out an electrolytic/Mylar/poly cap with a Teflon cap IF it would improve the same circuit used in a non-sda crossover.

Crossover component selection is like every other selection made pertaining to ANYTHING designed....its based on the almighty $$$$$ You target to your audience price range and build accordingly....guess what...as the speakers increase in price range....better capacitors show up in the crossovers...they know which ones sound better. Polk saved money in the best places possible and the easiest to upgrade......they build very good enclosures and use butyl rubber surrounds even on the entry level lines ( How many foam surrounds last 20 years ...not very many )...and go cheaper in the easiest place to upgrade for better sound.

On the mentioned SDA line....they even took it to the extreme...making extremely well braced cabinets...really nicely designed drivers as well as crossovers that had a lot of engineering and testing time into them. Now if they had used capacitors that cost 29 dollars each instead of 2.90 each...most of us wouldn't have been able to put them in our homes...period. At the time they were out in the market , I could only afford my first set of CRS's and dreamed of the big boys....now I can afford the big boys and upgrade what Polk saved on back then to get them out to the masses...letting me do minor modifications to get them to sound their absolute best.

Polk knew what crossover components sounded best.....they just couldn't use the absolute best components and get them out to the target audience they wanted to address.
I can almost hear Matt BEGGING for a Hovland back then, since Hovland was THE cap of that day.

I think it is a prudent idea when replacing caps in 20 year old speakers to admit the old caps are bad.
That is almost a given, especially with electrolytic.
So, why not replace caps with the exact same brand and type, and LISTEN first to get a baseline ?

This will allow you to hear what the designers intended.

Then, if you want, replace with different caps, and listen again.

Far too often, I have just thrown Solens/Bennics in there, and had it sound better.
But upon replacing the "better" caps with the new, stock ones, had it sound even better still.

[jakelm]

I can almost hear Matt BEGGING for a Hovland back then, since Hovland was THE cap of that day.

I think it is a prudent idea when replacing caps in 20 year old speakers to admit the old caps are bad.
That is almost a given, especially with electrolytic.
So, why not replace caps with the exact same brand and type, and LISTEN first to get a baseline ?

This will allow you to hear what the designers intended.

Then, if you want, replace with different caps, and listen again.

Far too often, I have just thrown Solens/Bennics in there, and had it sound better.
But upon replacing the "better" caps with the new, stock ones, had it sound even better still.

I see your point.

And worse come to worse, it would sound the exact same and last another 20 years.

My father's 1977 7a's have not been touched and sound fantastic. I feel alot of times we change out caps , just to do it. For a peice of mind.

I did it because of sonic problems, something was just not right with my 7b's. Now they are fantastic. But a pair like my father's "why mess with it" he says.

[ka7niq]

This stuff is all about 3 feet over my head, but interesting nonetheless.
Here is something I Googled that is easy to understand.

Don't you change the properties of the circuit, even if you use the same
values ?

Sometimes. One obvious case of this is loudspeaker crossover
parts. The capactors used are often electrolytic, lower tolerance, and
not all that wonderful from the standpoint of ESR. Furthermore, it is
not uncommon for electrolytics in speakers to degrade.

OTOH, If the speaker crossover was tuned to account for high ESR
capacitors, then replacing with a low ESR part could cause an change
away from the optimum that the speaker designer had in mind.

[avguytx]

Because that takes more time than I care to waste. I would rather spend that time listening to music and enjoying what I have than to waste it doing that. If I've already put good caps in, why bother? I mean, good God. I guess if I had nothing better to do all day than to call manufacturers and ask them off the wall questions about stuff from 20+ years ago, that would be another story.

Wait, I DO spend time calling manufacturers all day! But then again, I'm a rep for a bunch of lines! Should I mention all the people at each company I talk to? Would it make a rats a$$ bit of difference?

[jakelm]

Here is something I Googled that is easy to understand.

Don't you change the properties of the circuit, even if you use the same
values ?

Sometimes. One obvious case of this is loudspeaker crossover
parts. The capactors used are often electrolytic, lower tolerance, and
not all that wonderful from the standpoint of ESR. Furthermore, it is
not uncommon for electrolytics in speakers to degrade.

OTOH, If the speaker crossover was tuned to account for high ESR
capacitors, then replacing with a low ESR part could cause an change
away from the optimum that the speaker designer had in mind.

Thats it...I'm pulling everything out and replacing one of my 7's with its original type and doing an A/B test.

[treitz3]

[I'm filling in for WilliamM2 right now.....]:rolleyes:

Proof! Proof! I demand proof that you talked to him. How are we supposed to take that as fact unless you prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt that you conversed with him and he actually said that. Were you on the same line the whole time? Were you double blind during the conversation? I want a video tape of you proving to the world that you actually had a conversation with Brad. That way, my mind will be convinced that you might actually make a difference.

[WilliamM2 off] :D :p

I don't mean to be a smart a**, but then again I do. With all of the twisting of words and quotes and whatnot, why would we all of a sudden take your word for anything you say K7?

You have lost all credibility due to your history in past posts.

[ka7niq]

I see your point.

And worse come to worse, it would sound the exact same and last another 20 years.

My father's 1977 7a's have not been touched and sound fantastic. I feel alot of times we change out caps , just to do it. For a peice of mind.
Well, here is the way I see it.
Stick with new caps of the exact same kind and values, and you are assured of getting what the designer intended.
Deviate from stock, and you are taking a chance.
It can sound better, but it can also sound worse too.
This is assuming the caps replaced are not bad.
IF the caps are bad, any cap will sound better.
But, you will always wonder if the change is due more to an aging cap being replaced with a new one.
Solution ?
Start out replacing old caps with the exact same brand and type first.
Listen for awhile, THEN make changes.

[steveinaz]

Here is something I Googled that is easy to understand.

Don't you change the properties of the circuit, even if you use the same
values ?

Sometimes. One obvious case of this is loudspeaker crossover
parts. The capactors used are often electrolytic, lower tolerance, and
not all that wonderful from the standpoint of ESR. Furthermore, it is
not uncommon for electrolytics in speakers to degrade.

OTOH, If the speaker crossover was tuned to account for high ESR
capacitors, then replacing with a low ESR part could cause an change
away from the optimum that the speaker designer had in mind.

I'm sure there is a ton of variables going on, beyond simple part-for-part replacement.

[ka7niq]

[I'm filling in for WilliamM2 right now.....]:rolleyes:

Proof! Proof! I demand proof that you talked to him. How are we supposed to take that as fact unless you prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt that you conversed with him and he actually said that. Were you on the same line the whole time? Were you double blind during the conversation? I want a video tape of you proving to the world that you actually had a conversation with Brad. That way, my mind will be convinced that you might actually make a difference.

[WilliamM2 off] :D :p

I don't mean to be a smart a**, but then again I do. With all of the twisting of words and quotes and whatnot, why would we all of a sudden take your word for anything you say K7?

You have lost all credibility due to your history in past posts.
Then do not read my posts, and go on about your merry way ?

[jakelm]

Well, here is the way I see it.
Stick with new caps of the exact same kind and values, and you are assured of getting what the designer intended.
Deviate from stock, and you are taking a chance.
It can sound better, but it can also sound worse too.
This is assuming the caps replaced are not bad.
IF the caps are bad, any cap will sound better.
But, you will always wonder if the change is due more to an aging cap being replaced with a new one.
Solution ?
Start out replacing old caps with the exact same brand and type first.
Listen for awhile, THEN make changes.

The one 12uF Maylar and one 34uF eletrolytic cap is very easy to replace on my 7's xover. I will do it and see which sounds better.

Hell,,,you never know

[treitz3]

Then do not read my posts, and go on about your merry way ?
I will not go away because some people on the forum care about the integrity, honor, respect, dignity, and intelligence of the forum.

You questioned George.........now I'm questioning you. It works both ways. ;)

[ka7niq]

I'm sure there is a ton of variables going on, beyond simple part-for-part replacement.

Yes, a LOT more then meets the eye.
Here is a funny example.
Granny's recipe for swiss steak calls for cheap round steak cooked a LONG time.
IF you substitute a better cut of meat, and do not adjust cooking time, you will have meat pudding :eek:
So, as we can see, simply substiituting a "better part" is not always best.
I KNOW this question is coming, so lets head it off.

"Yeah, but what about all the guys running SDA speakers with all Solen Capacitors" ?

Well, I say "what about them"

HOW many of them have actually replaced their old aging caps with stock electrolytics and mylars of the same kind first ?

HOW can they confidently say "The Solen Caps sound better"
Better then what ?

Better then aging caps, you bet.
Better then new, stock replacements ?
It is possible.

But unless a baseline is first established .......... :confused:

[ka7niq]

I will not go away because some people on the forum care about the integrity, honor, respect, dignity, and intelligence of the forum.

You questioned George.........now I'm questioning you. It works both ways. ;)
You are displaying none of the above :(

[jakelm]

Now where can I find a 12uF Maylar cap.

I guess i can throw my old one back in since they dont degrade as quickly as electrolytic. So the older original Maylar should still be good.

Damnit....and I thought I was done with those speakers......:mad: :p

[danger boy]

The one 12uF Maylar and one 34uF eletrolytic cap is very easy to replace on my 7's xover. I will do it and see which sounds better.

Hell,,,you never know

i for one would be very interested in your findings.. i redid the crossovers on a pair of 7A's, because they were blown.. so I had no reference point on sound.

now i've got all the caps and resistors ready to go on a good sounding pair of 7B's. but you brought up a good point. basically saying. if it ain't broke, don't fix it. so i am interested in your findings. I went with Mills/Solens in the 7A's, but so far they have cleaned up the highs, bass is ok, mids still seem to be a bit veiled. the 7B's. I actually prefer over the A's for soundstage, but they sound veiled too in the mids without any xover mods yet.

[ka7niq]

The one 12uF Maylar and one 34uF eletrolytic cap is very easy to replace on my 7's xover. I will do it and see which sounds better.

Hell,,,you never know
TRY and get the exact same brand and type of caps, install and listen for awhile.
THEN switch em for better caps.
Listen again.
I have had mixed results.
Trust your ears, and do not hesitate to remove the "better" caps if they do not sound better in YOUR application.

[jakelm]

TRY and get the exact same brand and type of caps, install and listen for awhile.
THEN switch em for better caps.
Listen again.
I have had mixed results.
Trust your ears, and do not hesitate to remove the "better" caps if they do not sound better in YOUR application.


I wont need to switch..i have 2 speakers..I can do a direct a/b comparison

[ka7niq]

Now where can I find a 12uF Maylar cap.

I guess i can throw my old one back in since they dont degrade as quickly as electrolytic. So the older original Maylar should still be good.

Damnit....and I thought I was done with those speakers......:mad: :p
yes, Mylar caps have long life.
If not, here http://www.madisound.com/capcoil.html

[jakelm]

i for one would be very interested in your findings.. i redid the crossovers on a pair of 7A's, because they were blown.. so I had no reference point on sound.

now i've got all the caps and resistors ready to go on a good sounding pair of 7B's. but you brought up a good point. basically saying. if it ain't broke, don't fix it. so i am interested in your findings. I went with Mills/Solens in the 7A's, but so far they have cleaned up the highs, bass is ok, mids still seem to be a bit veiled. the 7B's. I actually prefer over the A's for soundstage, but they sound veiled too in the mids without any xover mods yet.

Mills and Solens are exactly what I "upgraded" (seeee...I dont know if thats the right word anymore....lol) too.

Original Maylar and an electrolytic are going in one and Solens in the other.

[danger boy]

for the 7B's that i have the parts for.. i went with Kimber Kaps.. instead of Solen.

from what I read online.. people seemed to really enjoy the Kimber Kaps..

[GV#27]

OTOH, If the speaker crossover was tuned to account for high ESR
capacitors, then replacing with a low ESR part could cause an change
away from the optimum that the speaker designer had in mind. The effect will depend on where it is in the circuit the lower ESR cap is installed.If it is in a shunt position(parrallel to the voice coil)and the capacatance value is the same then it should be insignificant.But if you replace a cap that is in series with a tweeter with a much lower ESR part then you may well find the tweeter is running a fraction of a db or more on the hot side.

[shadowofnight]

I can almost hear Matt BEGGING for a Hovland back then, since Hovland was THE cap of that day.

I think it is a prudent idea when replacing caps in 20 year old speakers to admit the old caps are bad.
That is almost a given, especially with electrolytic.
So, why not replace caps with the exact same brand and type, and LISTEN first to get a baseline ?

This will allow you to hear what the designers intended.

Then, if you want, replace with different caps, and listen again.

Far too often, I have just thrown Solens/Bennics in there, and had it sound better.
But upon replacing the "better" caps with the new, stock ones, had it sound even better still.

I'll agree to that in part...with the sole exception of the electrolytics...they were only used for cost savings period. They were cheap and met the capacitance needs...they were not put in there for any other reason. A poly in place of that electrolytic of the same capacitance isnt going to deviate from the said design sound enough to make a huge (Slight but better would be my description ) differance...as long as the two were functioning correctly.

Where you will see the real benefit is after 20 years those electrolytics have more then likely broken down to the point of actually changing the design functionality...thats where the real benefit comes from.....with the added plus of knowing the new caps actually sound better with an audio signal. Even when I have installed poly caps into brand new crossover designs with fresh electrolytics in them ...they sound better. And I dont claim to have a golden set of ears either....but that is noticeable to even me.

[F1nut]

I can read from the quoted posts that the knucklehead is passing out more bad advice, ignore it.

Teflon or Polystyrene caps, used as bypass caps (their values are too small for any other purpose in a crossover) are not a good thing. They are too fast and result in artifacts, which can be best described as an artificial "air" in the high frequencies. At first it sounds kinda neat, but one soon realizes that the same effect is present in every song, in any type of music, meaning that it's not natural and it's not something that one hears in live music.

As for the rest....Pffft!

[ka7niq]

The effect will depend on where it is in the circuit the lower ESR cap is installed.If it is in a shunt position(parrallel to the voice coil)and the capacatance value is the same then it should be insignificant.But if you replace a cap that is in series with a tweeter with a much lower ESR part then you may well find the tweeter is running a fraction of a db or more on the hot side.
Yes, and perhaps that 1/4 DB can make the sound more "transparent", EH ?
Great point GV 27, and one B&W flat warned me about.
They also said something about ESR slightly altering the crossover filters slope, effecting Q of the circuit too.
What is your opinion about first starting with the same type/brand of caps first to establish a baseline,, then going from there ?

[ka7niq]

I can read from the quoted posts that the knucklehead is passing out more bad advice, ignore it.

Teflon or Polystyrene caps, used as bypass caps (their values are too small for any other purpose in a crossover) are not a good thing. They are too fast and result in artifacts, which can be best described as an artificial "air" in the high frequencies. At first it sounds kinda neat, but one soon realizes that the same effect is present in every song, in any type of music, meaning that it's not natural and it's not something that one hears in live music.

As for the rest....Pffft!
True, Teflon and Polystrene caps are not easy to find in large values.
Solution ?
Parallel a bunch of them.
Lower ESR too
http://www.justradios.com/METcapacitors.html

[ka7niq]

I can read from the quoted posts that the knucklehead is passing out more bad advice, ignore it.

Teflon or Polystyrene caps, used as bypass caps (their values are too small for any other purpose in a crossover) are not a good thing. They are too fast and result in artifacts, which can be best described as an artificial "air" in the high frequencies. At first it sounds kinda neat, but one soon realizes that the same effect is present in every song, in any type of music, meaning that it's not natural and it's not something that one hears in live music.

As for the rest....Pffft!
"Too Fast" ???
Tell Spectral their amplifiers are "too fast".
Tell Nelson Pass his amp is too fast, his slew rate too high ?
Teflon and Polystrene caps are good capacitors.
Having low ESR and fast speed is a good thing, as long as the circuit likes it.

[ka7niq]

I'll agree to that in part...with the sole exception of the electrolytics...they were only used for cost savings period. They were cheap and met the capacitance needs...they were not put in there for any other reason. A poly in place of that electrolytic of the same capacitance isnt going to deviate from the said design sound enough to make a huge (Slight but better would be my description ) difference...as long as the two were functioning correctly.

Where you will see the real benefit is after 20 years those electrolytics have more then likely broken down to the point of actually changing the design functionality...that's where the real benefit comes from.....with the added plus of knowing the new caps actually sound better with an audio signal. Even when I have installed poly caps into brand new crossover designs with fresh electrolytics in them ...they sound better. And I dont claim to have a golden set of ears either....but that is noticeable to even me.

My experience differs from yours.
I would say it is about 50/50 for me replacing good electrolytics with new Polys.
It's all good.
As an electrolytic cap ages, it looses capacitance.
In a two way design, this effects the crossover, shifting it upwards.
Many times, this creates a mellow sound.

[Ricardo]

"Too Fast" ???


Hey guys, I learned how to google...


On by-pass caps:
"Differing values of capacitor charge and discharge in different times. The two different values are said to have different time constants. The small bypass capacitor charges and discharges faster than the larger value cap, thus it affects the higher frequency sounds. The effect of this is the render the highs brighter since they have been stretched over the two different time constants. While these bright highs may help sell equipment in the dealer's showroom, it is detrimental to imaging and the enjoyment of your music."

[steveinaz]

He called DK out and he went back and edited his post to make it look like he was just matter-of-fact inquiring. That was the reason for my post, not to persecute the guy.

If he had just made the statement without trying to discredit DK none of this controversy would exist. But he keeps lobing them up there people are going to keep smacking them out of the park.

H9

Owe you an apology bubba, this individual does have some issues. Now if you'll pass the bread plate, I'll finish this warm crow....LOL

[ka7niq]

Hey guys, I learned how to Google...


On by-pass caps:
"Differing values of capacitor charge and discharge in different times. The two different values are said to have different time constants. The small bypass capacitor charges and discharges faster than the larger value cap, thus it affects the higher frequency sounds. The effect of this is the render the highs brighter since they have been stretched over the two different time constants. While these bright highs may help sell equipment in the dealer's showroom, it is detrimental to imaging and the enjoyment of your music."
Tell Polk that ,, since they use Mylar bypass sometimes on Electrolytics.
Besides, Polystyrene caps are available in 2uf sizes, and can easily be parallelled for even more capacitance.

[hearingimpared]

Dead Thread Alert!!!

[ka7niq]

Here is a great thread to read with opinions pro and con about messing with crossover caps http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?cspkr&1050144226&openflup&4&4#4

For anyone reading this thread, I would suggest visiting as many forums as possible, and getting some other opinions besides mine, and the ones expressed in this thread.

[treitz3]

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f94/billbillw/beat_deadhorse.gif

[RuSsMaN]

Why is that smiley face smacking the drunk dog with a baton?

[avguytx]

Here is a great thread to read with opinions pro and con about messing with crossover caps http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?cspkr&1050144226&openflup&4&4#4

For anyone reading this thread, I would suggest visiting as many forums as possible, and getting some other opinions besides mine, and the ones expressed in this thread.

I've said it once and I'll say it again. That's TOO much time spent on figuring out what replacement caps to use. Put some friggin good caps in, call it good and go buy some friggin CD's or LP's. Sheesh...

[hearingimpared]

For anyone reading this thread, I would suggest visiting as many forums as possible, and getting some other opinions besides mine, and the ones expressed in this thread.

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA The only one taking you seriously is a guy named ABX! Where has he been BTW?

[jakelm]

If your "main" cap is high quality (Poly, Teflon, what not), why even bother with a bypass?

[heiney9]

I think it is a prudent idea when replacing caps in 20 year old speakers to admit the old caps are bad.
That is almost a given, especially with electrolytic.
So, why not replace caps with the exact same brand and type, and LISTEN first to get a baseline ?

What makes you think the same cap of the same value from the same manufacturer (assuming you would even know) would sound exactly the same as it did 20+ years ago. That is a big ASSUMPTION.

The plain and simple fact you keep overlooking, which BTW came for number 1's own mouth, is that they didn't use expensive (and for the time) exotic caps because it wasn't cost effective and the supply wasn't enough for large runs of speakers.

He didn't say that electrolytic were used specifically because of the x-over design. Hell, most of the caps I've seen in vintage Polks barely have any markings let alone where they came from. They were mass produced parts and I would bet that in many instances they weren't all sourced from the same vendor over the lifetime of the speaker.

Using your logic they would have to re-engineer the crossover everytime they changed the source of their parts.

H9

[F1nut]

If your "main" cap is high quality (Poly, Teflon, what not), why even bother with a bypass?


Exactly! It's not needed. Polk used silver mica's to bypass the electro's, which is a good idea. It's a cheap way to make a less than cap sound better.







Why isn't that ABX, the dog, that's getting smacked? Yeah, thought so.

[DaveMuell]

Why is that smiley face smacking the drunk dog with a baton?


Thanks, Russ! First time I laughed all day. Summed up the whole frckin thread.

[DaveMuell]

Does he need to spend more time with his lonely hearts club instead of posting here?

[hearingimpared]

No way the women keep having him thrown in jail for domestic violence!:D