Center channel or Sub first?

[devilchicken]

Hello everyone,

I've been lurking for a bit here trying to learn and not to sound like a mega-douche on my first post, so I better have made a good job at it, lol.
Anyway, recently I started to put together my first home theater and this so far my setup is this:

Receiver: Denon 3808
Fronts: Rti8
Surrounds: Rti6

As you can see I'm missing a couple pieces on my setup, so what im wondering is what would be more important, getting a center channel first, or a sub?
Right now im leaning towards the center a bit more, if only because the csi5 are being phased out (along with the whole rti series, correct me if im wrong here) and it's possible to get one for $200+shipping. So thats a good deal.
On the other hand, my tv is only a 34" so the fronts are set only about 6.5ft apart, and I imagine they're doing a decent job as a phantom center.

On the sub front my bedroom isnt that big really, and Ive been thinking that maybe one isn't needed, but everyone seems to agree that rti8s + sub = awesome :D
I'll get some measuring tape to get the exact dimensions of my room, but the Hsu VTF-1 seems like it would be a good fit with some upgradeability room for whenever I end up moving and have a mid sized living room for it.

Also, another thing, right now my surrounds are basically not on the sides of my listening area, but are located where the 2 back speakers on a 7.1 setup would be (and are about 2.5 feet higher than head height when im sitting), they are pointing towards my head though. Am I losing too much of the surround sensation by having them there? It doesn't seem that way to me from playing games, but just wondering.

Sorry about the long winded, rambling first post guys, lol.

[m00npie]

First, welcome to the forum mega-douche :D

I'm kidding, I laughed when I read that in your post. Congrats on the fine equipment you have. I recommend getting the CSi5 first since...

1 - You can get great deals on them right now
2 - It's a solid center speaker

Set all of your speakers as LARGE in the Denon Speaker Config and just be careful when you’re doing demos at 0DB. Your receiver is good but may run out of gas at those levels with your speakers.

After you get settled in with that, then get a sub when you have the means. You will then change your speaker settings back to SMALL crossed at 80. Start with that and then adjust the crossover based on what sounds best for you.

Once you get settled with that, then start looking for a separate amp preferably used on AudigoN since there is some really good used stuff out there. You have a great receiver with pre-outs on board so it can be used as a Pre if you get an amp down the road.

Good luck!

[fatchowmein]

Is that where devil eggs come from? Duh, sorry. You knew somebody was going to ask that dumb of a question. Welcome to the forum!

Another vote for the Csi5.

[devilchicken]

Thanks for the feedback guys.

Moonpie:
Don't worry, I don't think I'll be listening to music/movies at that level anyway, its a bit too loud (okay.. not really, lol). I don't think it would start pushing it though, I had an onkyo 705 and that one seemed to handle it adequately. In any case, I'm not about to push it too much.

Fatchowmein:
You know, when I moved to the US I had that question asked to me every other day, and my response would always be something along the lines of 'WTF are those?' I seriously had no clue. Go figure.

[G-2]

Welcome to the forum devil, we agree with the previous posters that you'd be better served initially with the center channel. The center channel is probably the single most important speaker (or speakers) for movies and TV. Hang out a while and when you're ready for a sub we recommended you take a look at https://svsound.com/index.cfm you can occasionally find some great deals in their B-Stock area (which will help with your budget). Stay and hang out there are some great people here!!

[engtaz]

Center then sub. Don't cheat your self on the center channel speaker. It is the most important speaker in HT. Most of all of the sound come out of the center channel. Sub is the next most important speakers in HT. DON'T skimp on either.

engtaz

[dudeinaroom]

I'd also say the center would be the way to go. I live in an apartment and don't use a sub.

...Don't cheat your self on the center channel speaker. It is the most important speaker in HT. Most of all of the sound come out of the center channel. Sub is the next most important speakers in HT. DON'T skimp on either.

engtaz

I don't quite agree with that yeah center is the most important, but I don't think the sub is the second. I think It would sound kind of funny with just a sub and center:D

I've heard a lot of different people say that the titacnic is a really good bang for the buck if you don't mind assembling your sub. 10 (http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=300-760) 12 (http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=300-762) 15 (http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=300-764) They also offer them assembled with the 10 inch version saying you 10 bucks compared to the VTF-1

[john22614]

I agree.....get that great center at the discount price....set all to large....you 8's should go plenty deep in that room....plus, your adding two good size drivers with that new center. Good luck and enjoy.

[cfrizz]

Welcome DevilChicken.

That's a nice system that you are putting together, and I agree with everyone else get the CSI 5 first.

The RTI series isn't going away, it just got a remodel, which looks totally different from the RTI's you have.

[ohskigod]

another for the good center first route. CSi5 will do you fine

[Kex]

Me too! Me too! I wrote out a whole post on the subject last night but it got wiped out by a clumsy move, so I gave up for the night! Everyone has already mentioned what was in it by now anyway, so the information made it's way to you eventually.

Welcome devilchicken! Great screen name!

[Ricardo]

I have RTi8's and CSi5 front stage with the 3808. I'm telling you I cannot get to 0db (while I did when using the 3803).
Get the CSi5; it will give you a better improvement than the sub.

[disneyjoe7]

Vote to get the center first.

BTW it's important to match the three front speakers Left / Right / Center if you can. The Sub can be just about anything that fits your need, being $ or size to do the room correctly.

[Ron Temple]

Just to be different...a nice sub will have the most dramatic impact on your HT experience. That being said, if $250 is your budget, get the center. Excellent subs start in the $5-700 range.

[jakelm]

Just to be different...a nice sub will have the most dramatic impact on your HT experience. That being said, if $250 is your budget, get the center. Excellent subs start in the $5-700 range.

Ron is right. When my center went out, I changed my settings on my HK to no center, toed in my 7's (main L/R) abit and waaammooo...center came back, with no center speaker. Now, If I were to give up my sub? For movies? Hell no...
:p

If you had $500 or $600 to spend , I would say sub. But $250? Just get a good center.. I guess... But again as Ron said, the sub would make the biggest impact in a HT system...

[Dave38]

Sub first. Velodyne makes pretty decent ones. I'm using the SPL-1200.

[devilchicken]

Hey everyone, thanks for all the feedback. Just got home and finished reading all of them. Anyways, just got off the phone from ordering the csi5, came up to $230 shipped, not a bad deal at all.
You guys were right, I don't want to compromise by buying an el-cheapo sub, id rather get the center now and then get a sub in the $450-$500 range. I know for some that is STILL el-cheapo, but hey.. im not made out of gold either, lol.

Ricardo:
Oh well, on my 705 my movie watching volume hovered at about -20 and that was plenty, so I'm not too worried about trying and blowing my speakers. *knocks on every wooden item in the bedroom*

Thanks for the help guys :D

[disneyjoe7]

Sounds great, but when ready for a Sub maybe something used would give you a bigger bang for the buck then retail for the price range.

[devilchicken]

Sounds great, but when ready for a Sub maybe something used would give you a bigger bang for the buck then retail for the price range.

I will definitely keep an eye on that, just last week I spotted an HSU Vtf-2 on audiogon going for $250, but i didnt jump on it. Oh well.

[engtaz]

Good move. Congrats on the purchase.

engtaz

[wingnut4772]

Welcome. I love your name.:D

Get the center but get the sub(s) ASAP. They are really important for that true cinema slam.

[devilchicken]

Welcome. I love your name.:D

Get the center but get the sub(s) ASAP. They are really important for that true cinema slam.

Ha! thanks! Monkey Island ftw!
Ill get the sub maybe in a couple months, no need to rush and buy something cheap that i'll want to upgrade within 6 months. Better wait and get it right the first time.. that is, until upgradeitits kicks in, lol

[wingnut4772]

Ha! thanks! Monkey Island ftw!
Ill get the sub maybe in a couple months, no need to rush and buy something cheap that i'll want to upgrade within 6 months. Better wait and get it right the first time.. that is, until upgradeitits kicks in, lol

That's a good idea. I went the gamut from a cheapy Velodyne to an Outlaw LFM-1 then an SVS Cylinder and ultimately my SVS PB12Ultra/2 and Plus/2 combo. I should've just waited and skipped the first 3.:p

[devilchicken]

2 - It's a solid center speaker

Set all of your speakers as LARGE....
Good luck!

Necrobump!

I finally received my csi5 today (i know, took a long while). Anyway, still running without a sub, so when I ran audissey again today it detected my center as a small and set the crossover at 40hz.
I corrected it by setting it to large (thus disabling the crossover), but then i checked the csi's specs and its lower end is on 45hz.
Obvious question time: should i leave it as large or is audissey's setup better?
Im not pushing the speakers much at all, but im still worried that it might damage the center.. and we can't have that, can we? :cool:

[devilchicken]

Anyone? pretty please?
I was googling around and found some forum where it said that if i set the speaker to small and set the xover to 50, it would redirect the lower frequencies to the fronts. Again, any input would be appreciated.

[AndyGwis]

*knocks on every wooden item in the bedroom*

When in doubt, I like to knock on my bedroom wood as well.

Since you already ordered the center, may as well start researching subs. I'll point you in the direction most others would eventually come to, SVS subs. Don't own one, never heard one, but everyone seems to love them. Supposedly better than my Mirage Omni S-12, which is a truly badass piece itself.

[devilchicken]

Since you already ordered the center, may as well start researching subs. I'll point you in the direction most others would eventually come to, SVS subs. Don't own one, never heard one, but everyone seems to love them.

Yup im definitely looking to an SVS sub, but im not sure about where to place it, as it can be kind of a big beast. Either that or a Hsu, which seems to be really good from what ive read too.
So back to my question, its fine if i set it to large or a small setting with a xo of 40hz is recommended?

[Joe08867]

Does your Reciver have a small, medium, large setting?? If it has medium aI would do that. If not I would go back to the small setting to increase the bass load on the Rti8's. And get back some of the sound you may be missing.

If your bass is lacking you could try different placements of the RTI's closer to the back wall or further away maybe even toeing them a bit to direct the bass to your listening spot. It all depends on the room.

[Kex]

With a center like the CSi5, I think I would be tempted to leave all three front speakers set to large when no subwoofer is present. That being said, the RTi8 have a 40Hz -3dB limit, compared to 55Hz for the CSi5, so maybe Joe08867 is right about this. I would try both using a passage that has plenty of bass to compare. You can probably switch without even stopping playback (although if you're using a DVD, video content would be hidden by the OSD information).

Why is your receiver adding a crossover point? Have you checked that you set the subwoofer selection to "none" in the set-up menus? The crossover is theoretically the point from where lower frequencies get directed away from the speakers in favor of a subwoofer. When no subwoofer is present the receiver should be sending a full range signal to the front speakers without any crossover AFIK.

[Joe08867]

Why is your receiver adding a crossover point? Have you checked that you set the subwoofer selection to "none" in the set-up menus? The crossover is theoretically the point from where lower frequencies get directed away from the speakers in favor of a subwoofer. When no subwoofer is present the receiver should be sending a full range signal to the front speakers without any crossover AFIK.

I was reading this post earlier and thought the same thing. But since I don't own a Denon receiver I figured it was just a Denon thing.:rolleyes:

[Joe08867]

I was reading your Denon 3808 manual online and it says you have to turn off the Subwoofer as it is on by default. If you need a copy I will add the address.

http://usa.denon.com/AVR-3808CI-OM-E_103_R1.pdf

[devilchicken]

Oh my setup was set to no sub before i re-ran audissey, and it still didnt detect any sub after it, but insisted on setting the speaker to small with a crossover at either 40hz or 60hz, i dont remember now. Can Audissey detect speaker limits like that from testing and set the size?

In fact, i just re-checked to make triple sure, and there it is, center as small with a crossover set to 40hz.
It just seemed weird to me that it would do that since I also figured the receiver it would set all the speakers to large when there was no sub present, which is why I came here to see what you guys thought. :D

Edit:
Manual says about the Audissey process: "...automatically calculates the size, level, distance.. for each speaker and subwoofer.."

So I guess it can set my center to small with a xo even though there is no sub present at the time.

[Kex]

devilchicken, I would still check those settings, although wth the crossover at 40Hz, that is probably equivalent to none on those speakers (it would be on mine too). Maybe that's just the way Denon show that they are sending a full range signal (by setting the crossover at what is probably its lowest setting).

Autocalibration is supposed to calculate size level and distance, as you pointed out from the manual, but you can still make modifications according to your preferences. I found h/k EzSet/EQ to be quite accurate in my case, so I don't change much.

[devilchicken]

devilchicken, I would still check those settings, although wth the crossover at 40Hz, that is probably equivalent to none on those speakers (it would be on mine too). Maybe that's just the way Denon show that they are sending a full range signal (by setting the crossover at what is probably its lowest setting).


Yup, i just double checked, it set both my fronts and surrounds (surrounds are rti6) as large, and the center as a small crossed at 40hz. Like you said, its probably equivalent to none or maybe its setting it as a precautionary measure since the speaker won't go that low to begin with.
I cant wait to have a good sub, lol.:D