Burglary is a risky business....

[exalted512]

http://www.khou.com/video/?nvid=193240

Accompanying article:
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/chronicle/5301872.html
-Cody

[audiobliss]

Wow. Just. Wow.

I guess life can change just like THAT *snaps fingers*.

[exalted512]

Moral of the story, dont rob houses.
-Cody

[John in MA]

I'd say a second moral would be don't shoot folks in defense of property, especially someone else's property, in states that don't allow that sort of thing.

[audiobliss]

I didn't get that from the video...though I did kinda 'zone out' a few times...:p...was that illegal?

[PolkThug]

Pwn3d

[shadowofnight]

They wont be robbing anybody anymore ... I was just surprised they were black.....

[exalted512]

I'd say a second moral would be don't shoot folks in defense of property, especially someone else's property, in states that don't allow that sort of thing.

He said they were on his property when he shot one of them, in Texas as of a couple months ago, perfectly legal.

If the neighbors say they gave him permission to use force to protect their property, legally, hes not held accountable.
-Cody

[John in MA]

Sorry, I saw Pasadena and thought of Kali.

[BaggedLancer]

Having had my car robbed twice on my own property and my garage door attempted to be broken down to gain entry while I was home I can tell you this man felt like he was being violated even though it wasn't even his property.

Unfortunately very few states allow the protection of personal property by lethal force and Massachusetts never will. I hope they prove the guy was defending himself and property and he walks.

[dorokusai]

If I did that in Maryland, I'd be in jail for a long time.

[phuz]

I love Texas.

Reminds me of this story:

ARLINGTON, Texas — Darrell Roberson came home from a card game late one night to find his wife rolling around with another man in a pickup truck in the driveway. Caught in the act with her lover, Tracy Denise Roberson — thinking quickly, if not clearly — cried rape, authorities say. Her husband pulled a gun and killed the other man with a shot to the head. On Thursday, a grand jury handed up a manslaughter indictment — against the wife, not the husband.

In a case likely to reinforce the state's reputation for don't-mess-with-Texas justice, the grand jury declined to charge the husband with murder, the charge on which he was arrested by police. "If I found somebody with my wife or with my kids in my house, there's no telling what I might do," said Juan Muniz, 33, who was having lunch today with one of his two small children at a restaurant in the middle-class suburban Dallas neighborhood where the Robersons lived. "I probably would have done the same thing."

Tracy Roberson, 35, could get two to 20 years in prison in the slaying of Devin LaSalle, a 32-year-old UPS employee. Assistant District Attorney Sean Colston declined to comment on specifics of the case or the grand jury proceedings but said Texas law allows a defendant to claim justification if he has "a reasonable belief that his actions are necessary, even though what they believe at the time turns out not to be true."

Mark Osler, a Baylor University law school professor and a former federal prosecutor, said the grand jurors evidently put themselves in the husband's place: "I can see one of them saying, 'I would have shot the guy, too. I was just protecting my wife.'" The December night before the shooting, Tracy Roberson sent LaSalle a text message that read in part, "Hi friend, come see me please! I need to feel your warm embrace!" according to court papers. LaSalle apparently agreed.

Darrell Roberson, a 38-year-old employee of a real estate firm, discovered the two, his wife clad in a robe and underwear. When Tracy Roberson cried that she was being raped, LaSalle tried to drive away and her husband drew the gun he happened to be carrying and fired several shots at the truck, authorities said. Darrell Roberson's attorney did not immediately return a call for comment.

His wife also was charged with making a false report to a police officer — for allegedly saying she was raped — and could get up to six months behind bars on that offense. It was not immediately clear whether she had a lawyer. She had not been arrested as of this afternoon.

[wingnut4772]

There is no way he will get away with that. I will be shocked if he does.

[beardog03]

God I love Texas !

Ya git t carry guns, and friggin use em...!!!!

[exalted512]

There is no way he will get away with that. I will be shocked if he does.

Im pretty sure he will. Texas is like a whole other country, if he gets prosecuted, that entire town will be in an outrage, as well as a lot of other people in Texas. And if they were found to be on his property at one point or the other, then he def. will not be prosecuted. Probably helps that hes an older gentlemen as well.

Besides the fact that I hope it sets an example for all thieves.
-Cody

[m00npie]

If I did that in Maryland, I'd be in jail for a long time.


If I even thought of doing it in NY, the Minority report police would come and take me away.

[BaggedLancer]

Im suprised Texas is still a part of the United States.

[phuz]

There is no way he will get away with that. I will be shocked if he does.

He will probably beat all criminal charges, or get a slap on the wrist.

Civil charges, that's a different story.

[BaggedLancer]

If anyone in Texas comes across an update on this please post it. Thanks

[McLoki]

Im suprised Texas is still a part of the United States.

Surprised they still claim us??

[phuz]

Other info from another local channel. Different perspectives as well.

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=local&id=5766452

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=local&id=5766455

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=local&id=5761173

[shadowofnight]

Just make sure that the FIRST arriving officers know your life was threatened and a move made to secure that threat....a verbal threat to kill and a move in your direction is enough even in my law challenged state of CA. They dont have to have a gun or knife... " I am going to grab that HOE ( :) ) right there and cut your head off " Is a perfectly legitiment threat to use lethal force...and most guys have hoes around the house.

It's between you and god if that threat was really ever made....just dont do 2 things.....never plant evidence anymore...the day of the throw down weapon is long past with forensics as good as they are now...you will get busted. Two, do NOT shoot them in the back UNLESS they threatened a family member and are moving in their direction ( As in up the stairs towards your sleeping childrens rooms ) . A lot of my family are in law enforcement ( I wanted too as well...hate paperwork...so I didnt ) and also living in Calif and a gun owner I took classes on this to know my rights when faced with this situation.

I have had to use a firearm 3 times in my lifetime on other persons.....all 3 times I did not have to actually pull the trigger...all 3 times were outdoors...all 3 times the officers told me I would have been justified in using the firearm...all 3 were armed ( The funniest was in 1985 I caught 3 guys stealing my BRAND new motorcycle...the 2 in the vehicle peeled out leaving one guy with a huge screwdriver in the ignition with a large visegrips clamped onto it ....told him to get his ass on the ground..he did .....my buddy pulls up...army sargent no less..tells me to have him stand up and we can both swear he was coming at us with the huge screwdriver and that I should kill him then...he physically peed his pants while in the prone position. I, being dead serious told him to yell at his wife to call the police ( Its 1985...not many cell phones around :) ) ...that was the funny part...I remember her yelling on the phone " The big guy in the red shirt with the gun is the good guy...dont shoot him "

The cops arrived...asked me to put down the weapon...one secured the guy...other looked at the bike...said it had been " Popped " ? They were 2 motorcycle cops...the guy had 3 phoney id's on him...later found out he was on parole for M/C theft. One cop joked that he would have killed him if it had been his bike...and they told the guy they should throw him in the trunk cause he smelled like piss. I became good friends with one of the officers. With the description of the vehicle they got the other 2 guys as well.

Now, one step towards me with the screwdriver....dead guy....IF he would have been smart...he would have turned and run...I would NOT have shot at him and he would have made a clean getaway.

[steveinaz]

He'll do time for that HUGE mistake.
1. They were unarmed.
2. He confronted them, they didn't confront him.
3. He would have never been in any immediate danger had he remained in his house.

People like this make responsible gun owners look like morons. Most states that have a "castle doctrine" (your right to protect your home with lethal force) still require that you never fire on anyone attempting to flee the scene, that they are armed, and that they had actually entered your home. You will have to prove that you feared for your life, and present evidence that supports this.

As for the goons---too bad so sad, being a criminal is risky business. As for the "cowboy," this shooting was clearly unjustified.

[hypertone]

How ironic. He ended up committing a more serious crime than the robbers. I can understand why he would be pissed and want to shoot those guys, but what he did is just idiotic.

[SKsolutions]

Like Michael Douglas in Falling Down, he had had enough.

[brettw22]

Like Michael Douglas in Falling Down, he had had enough.Wow........what a stupid movie......<<shudders>>

[exalted512]

He'll do time for that HUGE mistake.
1. They were unarmed.
2. He confronted them, they didn't confront him.
3. He would have never been in any immediate danger had he remained in his house.

People like this make responsible gun owners look like morons. Most states that have a "castle doctrine" (your right to protect your home with lethal force) still require that you never fire on anyone attempting to flee the scene, that they are armed, and that they had actually entered your home. You will have to prove that you feared for your life, and present evidence that supports this.

As for the goons---too bad so sad, being a criminal is risky business. As for the "cowboy," this shooting was clearly unjustified.

In Texas, as of a couple months ago, you can shoot them if theyre on your property, trying to gain access to your car, or in youre business, its fair game.
-Cody

[mrbigbluelight]

No property is worth killing over. I'll agree with that.

But the right to feel absolutely secure in your home and surroundings is worth defending to the extreme.

The two burglars died ?
That's regrettable, on their part. It's regrettable that they chose to burglarize a person's home.

That they lost their lives in the process is too bad, but that choice was made by them.

[SKsolutions]

Wow........what a stupid movie......<<shudders>>

There wasn't any Donnie and Marie on, and my fourth wife likes it.

[BaggedLancer]

No property is worth killing over. I'll agree with that.

But the right to feel absolutely secure in your home and surroundings is worth defending to the extreme.

The two burglars died ?
That's regrettable, on their part. It's regrettable that they chose to burglarize a person's home.

That they lost their lives in the process is too bad, but that choice was made by them.

Agreed x100

[brettw22]

There wasn't any Donnie and Marie on, and my fourth wife likes it.I think you can catch them a lot on Dancing with the Stars..........and I don't have the "wife" problem........lucky me.......:D

[SKsolutions]

Do you have a wood chipper that I could borrow?

[BaggedLancer]

Do you have a wood chipper that I could borrow?

You should try a gasoline cut-off saw.....my Stihl will create some noise if that is what you need.

[mrbigbluelight]

"Activist Quanell X and dozens of other protesters Sunday faced hundreds of homeowners and supporters of Joe Horn, the Pasadena man who shot and killed two men he suspected of burglarizing a neighbor's home more than two weeks ago.
Families of the slain men, Miguel Antonio DeJesus, 38, and Diego Ortiz, 30, also were present.
Yard signs lined the 7400 block of Timberline in Pasadena, where the incident took place, as well as on nearby streets.
Residents and Horn supporters waved American flags and carried signs reading, "We love our neighbor for protecting our neighbors" and "Burglary is a risky business."
Motorcyclist Aaron "Blowout" Morrow, 43, and dozens of his fellow bikers lined Timberline, loudly revving their engines each time Quanell X attempted to speak.
"I support our rights as Americans to protect ourselves and support our Second Amendment rights," Morrow said.


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[nms]

Looks like fun! :rolleyes:

[BaggedLancer]

Thanks for that MBBL.

Props to the bikers for not letting the idiots, I mean activists, speak.

[disneyjoe7]

Love the biker who wouldn't let those activist speak, I feel it's about time we fought back.

[WilliamM2]

Is this the same incident someone linked to a few weeks ago? The guy on the phone with the cop who was about to shoot a burglar, and then went outside and shot them?

[wingnut4772]

Is this the same incident someone linked to a few weeks ago? The guy on the phone with the cop who was about to shoot a burglar, and then went outside and shot them?

Yes.

[bruss]

I think it is

Is this the same incident someone linked to a few weeks ago? The guy on the phone with the cop who was about to shoot a burglar, and then went outside and shot them?

[treitz3]

Well then. Everybody in America should send him a dollar or ten for his actions. Maybe that will get the message across to the burglars. :mad:

Um...........it was a burglar right? If it was, refer to statement above. If it wasn't , disregard post altogether. :p

[hearingimpared]

Sometimes it works out just right and other times . . .

[brettw22]

Is anyone able to get the video to play all the way through? It's stopping around 2 minutes and that's barely 1/5 of the total video.

[Ron-P]

That liveleak site is wild. I joined up and checked out some of the vids...damn!

[F1nut]

The 7400 block of Timberline in Pasadena ROCKS!!!


And why the F should anyone care what someone named Quanell X has to say? :rolleyes:

[obieone]

I hope Joe Horn runs for PUBLIC OFFICE! Him & Sheriff Arpaio could clean up this country 1 county at a time!

[Silverti]

What are the finer details on what happened with all the goofy protesting aside from both sides?

So Joe Horn actually caught them in the act inside the neighbor’s house when he shot them dead? I wonder how the law actually sees that. They defiantly are lenient on people in the house who shoot robbers (under self defense), but I’m not sure how they fell about someone seeing it going on over at a neighbor’s house and shooting them dead. Not sure they would call it self defense but maybe defense of his neighbor if he thought they were home? Did the police file anything on Horn? This would be an interesting legal situation.

[ND13]

Knowing how this nation has changed, he'll end up in jail for 3rd degree manslaughter or negligent homicide. He had the cops on the phone and then shot them, iiuc. So it sounds like he shot them exiting the other house.

[BaggedLancer]

He'll get murder convictions....watch.

[Silverti]

Knowing how this nation has changed, he'll end up in jail for 3rd degree manslaughter or negligent homicide. He had the cops on the phone and then shot them, iiuc. So it sounds like he shot them exiting the other house.

I'm secure enough in my belief that my local Police are fine people who would take care of a situation like that for me. If I saw the house next to me being broken into I sure as heck wouldn’t go out there guns blazing (like the wild wild west). I'd be on 911 immediately (while trying to get a license plate) and I would see 5 coppers here in no less than 5 minutes I would guess. I'd let them do the gun blazing if need be.

Now if I caught someone in my own house and it was occupied, they would go down in a blaze of glory and anyone who thinks that a crime can bite me.

We had a guy around here go up on murder charge for defending his home. He shot the burglar in the back and killed him as he was running out the house (got him in the front yard). I'm 100% in favor of that guy in any case. The legal reason why they went for him was that he shot the guy outside of his house while he was running away.

[Sami]

Shooting someone in self defense is a totally difference thing than going into someone else's house to shoot a burglar, or shooting them while they are exiting the house. I hate burglars and I understand Mr. Horn but what he did was wrong, there is no denying that.

[avguytx]

Yeah, if you're gonna shoot 'em, shoot 'em in your house. If someone breaks into my house, they aren't walking out alive. If I get shot in the process, well, it was just my time to go but I am going out protecting what is mine that I worked for.

[sucks2beme]

But seriously, the rule is there to prevent accidental shootings due to a misunderstanding.
The real issue here is he was outside when it happened.
I think the issue will turn ugly even with local support of the guy.
Although I'm happy he got the bad guys, how many times in the
last year did you hear of a guy at the wrong house getting shot as he was standing
outside the door.
And why do these events where a guilty party like a burglar or those kids that beat a
white kid in school get the protesters going?
Put your effert into cases for the innocent, not thugs.

[zingo]

It's a sad time in America when the home owner gets more crap from the media then the burglars.

[disneyjoe7]

It's a sad time in America when the home owner gets more crap from the media then the burglars.



BINGO

[steveinaz]

While I support the castle doctrine 110%, this guy made some serious mistakes. He should have never approached them. He endangered himself, and plain clothes officers needlessly, not to mention setting himself up for a fall because he willfully "pursued" them. People need to realize that responding officers have no idea who the bad guys are, what they look like, etc; you go out there being johnny-good-citizen, shotgun in tow, you may very well get shot by the good guys.

I have zero sympathy for the deceased, crime is a dangerous thing, enter at your own risk; better yet, get a job like the rest of us.

As far as "Quanell X" goes...this guy is a moron. I've seen him on FOX news, talk about a case. Malcom X is turning over in his grave. This is the same moron that claimed the reaction (or lack thereof) to New Orleans during Katrina was all a plan by the white man to clean up New Orleans...sheesh, whatta tool.

[Sami]

It's a sad time in America when the home owner gets more crap from the media then the burglars.

Except the guy wasn't the home owner.

[sucks2beme]

Except the guy wasn't the home owner.

And this is what's gonna get him jail time. What the hell was he thinking?
Maybe the locals won't push it, but I bet some slick lawyers come to town from the ACLU or other outfit and make something stick. It's sad, but I
bet he at least gets a federal civil rights charge. Nothing like this stays local
any more.

[Skynut]

I'll bet the families in the other country will sue and get rich, the "good citizen" will do jail time and the bad guys will get a free funeral.

[exalted512]

I really have to disagree with some people here.

I do agree, yes, just because you see someone standing outside of a house that you dont know, you shouldnt go shoot them.

That wasnt the case. He saw them break into the house with a crow bar and come outside with stolen goods. If that happened to me, I would hope to God my neighbor shot them dead, or at least knee capped 'em.

Theres not much more I hate than a thief, and who doesnt want the neighbors helping out? The fact of the matter is, if you watched the video, it took over 7 minutes for the cops to show up in town in a residential area. Thats piss poor response time if you ask me.

Thieves arent going to stop until they have a legit. fear for their lives, if it takes more shootings like this, I'm all for it. It'll teach em that just because the people youre robbing arent home, doesnt mean youre not going to get blown away by the guy living next door.
-Cody

[disneyjoe7]

I really have to disagree with some people here.

I do agree, yes, just because you see someone standing outside of a house that you dont know, you shouldnt go shoot them.

That wasnt the case. He saw them break into the house with a crow bar and come outside with stolen goods. If that happened to me, I would hope to God my neighbor shot them dead, or at least knee capped 'em.

Theres not much more I hate than a thief, and who doesnt want the neighbors helping out? The fact of the matter is, if you watched the video, it took over 7 minutes for the cops to show up in town in a residential area. Thats piss poor response time if you ask me.

Thieves arent going to stop until they have a legit. fear for their lives, if it takes more shootings like this, I'm all for it. It'll teach em that just because the people youre robbing arent home, doesnt mean youre not going to get blown away by the guy living next door.
-Cody



Thank you, and consider myself packed & ready for any robber I find at any neighbor house let alone mine. And yes if I shoot it's to KILL, I don't aim to wound. :)

[Demiurge]

The shooter is wrong in initiating a confrontation that was otherwise completely avoidable. The protesters turning it into a race issue are also wrong, and subsequently are the main reason the shooter is getting raked over the coals so much publically.

The real issue here? The courts. The people doing the robbing probably would have faced little to no jail time. This has been a constant source of frustration when the criminal justice system turns into a revolving door. We need to start enforcing laws that are on the books to their fullest extents so people don't feel compelled to partake in vigialante justice.

Trust me, I, as much as anybody get that the guy doing the shooting probably wasn't a bad guy and the guy that was killed probably was. That just doesn't make the shooting justified.

Had this happened on his own personal property it's a completely different situation, and in Texas I believe he would have been well within his rights to do what he did.

[exalted512]

If the neighbors gave him consent, hes still within his rights, even if no immediate threat was posed to him.
-Cody

[Sherardp]

The key is if you happen to shoot them while exiting drag them back in the door then youre good. But in this guys case, Im sure he'll get time for it. Sux but Im sure he will. I wouldnt have killed them, maybe just shot out the tires on the vehicle or something.

[ND13]

A .45 in the knees tends to slow down burgalars for a loooong time.

[sucks2beme]

I really have to disagree with some people here.

I do agree, yes, just because you see someone standing outside of a house that you dont know, you shouldnt go shoot them.

That wasnt the case. He saw them break into the house with a crow bar and come outside with stolen goods. If that happened to me, I would hope to God my neighbor shot them dead, or at least knee capped 'em.

Theres not much more I hate than a thief, and who doesnt want the neighbors helping out? The fact of the matter is, if you watched the video, it took over 7 minutes for the cops to show up in town in a residential area. Thats piss poor response time if you ask me.

Thieves arent going to stop until they have a legit. fear for their lives, if it takes more shootings like this, I'm all for it. It'll teach em that just because the people youre robbing arent home, doesnt mean youre not going to get blown away by the guy living next door.
-Cody



We all like the shooting of thugs. The problem is the law. This guy is going to be in and out of
court for years. Once again, if it was inside a home, he'd be ok. Go check the law.
I hope he gets off. But reality isn't like tv with a happy ending for the good guy.

[george daniel]

A .45 in the knees tends to slow down burgalars for a loooong time.

absolutely,,, kill em' all,,let God sort them out ;)

[disneyjoe7]

A .45 in the knees tends to slow down burgalars for a loooong time.


No way shoot in the HEAD will stop them for good, let the courts figure that out. Shoot them in the knees and they can sue me instead no thanks.

[BaggedLancer]

No way shoot in the HEAD will stop them for good, let the courts figure that out. Shoot them in the knees and they can sue me instead no thanks.

What the matter don't want the burglars moving into your house with your money? :o

I agree, at the firearms class I took the instructor said(off the books obviously) "Never shoot to wound, you end up with more headaches and you lose everything, shoot to kill and don't stop shooting till the clip is empty. Then double and triple check for the police get there to make sure they aren't getting up."

[ND13]

No way shoot in the HEAD will stop them for good, let the courts figure that out. Shoot them in the knees and they can sue me instead no thanks.

....

[shack]

I am going to disagree with the majority here. I believe every one has the right to protect one's propety and I think that goes to the extent of lethal force if in doing so your life is at stake. There is nothing I own that is worth trading a life for...regardless of the scum that tries to take it. If there is a threat to my safety or that of my family...that is different...and any force necessary is warranted.

This instance is so far over the line that the man deserves jail time and I hope he gets it. He was fine until he made the confrontation...he should have stayed in his house on the phone, got descriptions of the thiefs, their vehicle etc, and let LE handle it from there. There was no one at risk for harm including the shooter since they were not armed and he shot them in the side and back. He was TOLD to stay inside. He was TOLD not to confront them. There was a cop there that just pulled up in response to the 911 call who witnessed the shootings and would have arrested the suspects. Vigilantism has a poor history in this country and that is exactly what this man did when he decided to play cop, jury, judge and executioner in this case. One of the key phrases in the original post "Joe Horn, the Pasadena man who shot and killed two men he suspected of burglarizing a neighbor's home more than two weeks ago. He wasn't protecting his property and had no right to kill those men.

[sucks2beme]

Oh, don't worry, if they enter MY home, it'll be a head shot.

NO, NO, NO. First four shots go center mass, then two to the head
while he's down. Stop him first, then go for it.
Then kick him a couple times somewhere he's not bleeding.
Then piss on him. See what his momma thinks of that!

[steveinaz]

I'm pro-gun, you all know that--but I can't justify the way this was handled. Now if the neighbor had suspected his neighbors might be in the house, that would be different as a potential for murder or serious injury is there; but he was fully aware that there was no one in the house (we was watching it for his neighbors) and the shit-bags were merely stealing things. There's a right way and wrong way to do things--responsibly. This incident hurts the gun owners of America by making us all look like a bunch of yahoos. He could have handled this differently and possibly detained them.

I'm not blaming the victim here, just saying that he handled it poorly and he's probably going to face some serious punishment for his poor judgement. Take note "bad-guys" sometimes people shoot first, and ask questions later...

[BaggedLancer]

I'm pro-gun, you all know that--but I can't justify the way this was handled. Now if the neighbor had suspected his neighbors might be in the house, that would be different as a potential for murder or serious injury is there; but he was fully aware that there was no one in the house (we was watching it for his neighbors) and the shit-bags were merely stealing things. There's a right way and wrong way to do things--responsibly. This incident hurts the gun owners of America by making us all look like a bunch of yahoos. He could have handled this differently and possibly detained them.

That is an interesting post. However, how would you go about detaining them? I'm willing to bet if he tried they would have said something to the effect of "You won't shoot us, get lost". To which then what does he do? Fire a warning shot? That alone would land him in jail for wrongfully discharging a firearm. So maybe he does end up detaining them, he could probably be sued by the burglars for detaining them at gunpoint, and holding them against their will.

Who is to say if he tried to detain them and they said "F you", got in their car and tried to run him over.

The guy Joe Horn was faced with an impossible "right" decision once he left the front door of his house. There was no right and wrong way to handle it. He made the decision when he walked out the door to stop them and that was it.

[steveinaz]

I would have remained in my home, shotgun and phone at my side--watching them carefully. When they didn't respond to him, he should have simply backed up into his home, shotgun trained on them the whole way. Sure if they start approaching him as he's backing off---fire away. Now you have a justifiable shooting. But this was not the case.

Now, given that he did go out there--I would have a fired a shot into the ground, it lets them know that the gun is in fact loaded, and you are prepared to use it. Been more forceful, whatever--pursuing someone is just a tactically dumb thing to do, (not to mention legally dumb thing) if you don't have to.

[steveinaz]

The guy Joe Horn was faced with an impossible "right" decision once he left the front door of his house.

Exactly, this was a bad decision.

[Demiurge]

Those of you commenting on how you would handle one of these situations may want to think twice about posting it on the internet for all to see. It may sound cute right now, but it won't be cute if you're ever involved in an altercation and a prosecutor has access to everything, including your home computer. Whether you like it or not, this system makes the defender of property the criminal. The stuff you post here will be here forever unless you edit your comments. In a way it's essentially a part of the public record.

[BaggedLancer]

Exactly, this was a bad decision.

Yes, but the point I was trying to make is it's almost like he didn't have the choice but to shoot them. I thought I remember seeing somewhere that once he left the house and called them one of them started to approach him, or did they both start running? If they both started running, I agree he should have moved back in his house.

[steveinaz]

Yep, he injected himself into a bad situation--I agree w/you 100%. He should have listened to the 911 dispatcher.

All the facts are not out yet, but autopsy evidence suggests both were shot in the back. Not good. Keep in mind there was a plain clothes detective who saw the whole thing go down---he didn't know "who" the bad guys were, so he stayed put. He actually thought that the guy with the shotgun (Horn) might be the get away driver--This is why the dispatcher kept telling Horn to "stay in your house."

Right or wrong as it is, to a Jury it sounds like he was "looking for a fight." Don't kill the messenger, I'm just telling you how it will be portrayed in court.

[BaggedLancer]

If there was a detective there who watched everything go down he should be charged for allowing it to play out the way it did, especially if the detective knew there was a plain clothes detective right there watching it and didn't tell the guy with the shotgun.

Not knowing who the bad guys were? B/S, the ones with the loot are the bad guys. It would have taking maybe 10 seconds for the 911 dispatcher to tell the detective the guy with the shotgun is the worried homeowner.

[Silverti]

When I was having my basement finished, my contractor had access into my house when we weren’t home. He would basically break into the side gate and go down to my basement which we would leave unlocked and alarm off for him.

I sure as hell would hate for a neighbor (who maybe had the day off from work that day) to come running over with a gun and blaze him down (no questions asked) thinking he was robbing the place. But if they really were surprised, I sure as hell wouldn’t mind them calling 911 and letting the people trained and experienced in that kinda thing come by and see what’s up (they might notice his truck has a contractor sign on it). I tend to trust the coppers in this kinda thing more then my goofy neighbors.

[dkg999]

You always have a choice of whether or not to shoot. And as stated by Shack and SteveinAZ, this guy made a very bad choice that is not supported by law or by the pro-gun groups. He was not defending his property, and he was not in danger until he decided to be a hero and inserted himself into the situation. All this situation will result in will be a possible punishment of the shooter, and empowerment of the criminal element. If he really wanted to be effective he would of followed them in his vehicle, reporting where they were going to the 911 operator.

[Demiurge]

Good lord, the guy was wrong. I'm an NRA Certified Pistol Instructor, and there is conduct involved in how you use firearms. You own them in hopes you never have to use them for defensive purposes. This guy created the situation, it wasn't brought upon him.

"Don't go outside the house," the 911 operator pleaded. "You're going to get yourself shot if you go outside that house with a gun. I don't care what you think."

"You want to make a bet?" Horn answered. "I'm going to kill them."

This guy did nothing right other than calling 9-11, but he was too stupid to listen to them.

[steveinaz]

If there was a detective there who watched everything go down he should be charged for allowing it to play out the way it did, especially if the detective knew there was a plain clothes detective right there watching it and didn't tell the guy with the shotgun.

Not knowing who the bad guys were? B/S, the ones with the loot are the bad guys. It would have taking maybe 10 seconds for the 911 dispatcher to tell the detective the guy with the shotgun is the worried homeowner.

Read the updated reports for yourself and draw your own conclusions. I may or may not have the facts straight--but I believe this is what I last read. I feel ya brother on this, I do..but there's a right way and a wrong way to do things.

[steveinaz]

This guy did nothing right other than calling 9-11...

Exactly what I was going to say....

[BaggedLancer]

When I was having my basement finished, my contractor had access into my house when we weren’t home. He would basically break into the side gate and go down to my basement which we would leave unlocked and alarm off for him.

I sure as hell would hate for a neighbor (who maybe had the day off from work that day) to come running over with a gun and blaze him down (no questions asked) thinking he was robbing the place. But if they really were surprised, I sure as hell wouldn’t mind them calling 911 and letting the people trained and experienced in that kinda thing come by and see what’s up (they might notice his truck has a contractor sign on it). I tend to trust the coppers in this kinda thing more then my goofy neighbors.

In that case it would have been the responsible decision on your part to let your neighbors know that you were having work done on your home by a contractor while you weren't home and you specifically left the door open and alarm off for him to have access to it.

There have been numerous cases in my neighborhood where next door neighbors called alerting us to when they were having this kind of work done while they weren't home.

End result, if they saw your contractor walking out with audio equipment and other non construction goods....they would know what to do. If they saw him walking in or out with construction materials...they would know what to do.

I wouldn't call your neighbors goofy, they might just be the ones to call 911 if your house is burning down or someone is actually breaking in.

[BaggedLancer]

Read the updated reports for yourself and draw your own conclusions. I may or may not have the facts straight--but I believe this is what I last read. I feel ya brother on this, I do..but there's a right way and a wrong way to do things.

I'm afraid to watch/listen to the updated reports. The 911 assessed how unstable the guy was and to have a cop on seen and just let it play out the way it did would make me kind of sick.

I am definately not saying the guy made the right decision at this point. I'm just saying if a cop was there on seen it should have been much different and a much happier outcome.

[Silverti]

In that case it would have been the responsible decision on your part to let your neighbors know that you were having work done on your home by a contractor while you weren't home and you specifically left the door open and alarm off for him to have access to it.

There have been numerous cases in my neighborhood where next door neighbors called alerting us to when they were having this kind of work done while they weren't home.

End result, if they saw your contractor walking out with audio equipment and other non construction goods....they would know what to do. If they saw him walking in or out with construction materials...they would know what to do.

I wouldn't call your neighbors goofy, they might just be the ones to call 911 if your house is burning down or someone is actually breaking in.

I do have neighbors to trust but believe me, we have some serious neighbors that are actually goofy (after a 24 pack of Miller Light and 10 perscription pain killers) and would probably come out of the house guns blazing. I won’t go into detail.

[BaggedLancer]

then those are the first you let know about what is going on :D

Back on topic, anyone know what charges have actually been filed? Manslaughter or murder? Neither?

[shack]

then those are the first you let know about what is going on :D

Back on topic, anyone know what charges have actually been filed? Manslaughter or murder? Neither?

It's going to a grand jury.

[BaggedLancer]

It's going to a grand jury.

Thanks shack....probably going to end up with murder charges with a plea out on manslaughter for both if i had to guess.

[ohskigod]

I dont know guys, thi one can go either way. remember, none of us were there, so it's hard to make a definitive judgement. The burglars made the conscious decision to invade the sactity of another man's home, while the shooter made the desicion to defend it (even if it was a neighbors home, have your neighbors house get broken into and see how safe you feel given how close it was)

I'll say the shooter might very well have dropped the ball legally in terms of application, but I wont morally fault the guy. I think home invasion is a terible crime, and those who choose to partake in it deserve whatever they get. turned to swiss cheese by a shotgun wielding neighbor with an itchy trigger finger? oh well, I ain't losing sleep.

when someone feels the sactity of there home, or neighborhood is in peril, it can make people do crazy shit, and this guy falls into that category. Also, none of us know what hapenned when they were face to face, so lets just let the justice system handle it.

[ND13]

"Don't go outside the house," the 911 operator pleaded. "You're going to get yourself shot if you go outside that house with a gun. I don't care what you think."

"You want to make a bet?" Horn answered. "I'm going to kill them."

If this is the actual 911 call, he's toast.

[ohskigod]

In a non castle doctrine state, you'd be right, but this is going to be the first real test of the castle doctrine, which I believe is in effect in that state.

this is a case I'm going to follow with interest

[Demiurge]

If this is the actual 911 call, he's toast.

Yep, it is. Unfortunately I don't know where to get the audio of it. I heard it on the radio on Friday morning on a local station that talked about it. The quote I posted is from a Fox News article.

[Demiurge]

when someone feels the sactity of there home, or neighborhood is in peril, it can make people do crazy shit, and this guy falls into that category. Also, none of us know what hapenned when they were face to face, so lets just let the justice system handle it.

Nobody is advocating the justice system not handle it on their own, which they will do. This discussion will hopefully prevent any other Jason Bourne wannabes from thinking these situations are cool and that they want to take a bad guy out as soon as they get the opportunity. It is shit like this that gives responsible gun owners a bad name.

As far as being there...what does that have to do with anything? The guy was in his house. There's no gray area here. The perps had NO idea he was there until he decided to leave his house and take the law into his own hands after a 911 dispatcher told him to stay put.

He left his house with the intent to kill these men and they have it on tape. There's no doubt of his motives and he'll pay for it.

I have actually been in a similar situation. I was in my Condo a 5 years ago and saw my neighbors place get robbed. Scary as hell, but I had the lights off and was just watching TV with my girlfriend. I called the cops and tipped them off and then they did their thing. Turns out it was an inside job -- they had their place robbed and tried to cover up the tracks and commit insurance fraud.

[ND13]

In a non castle doctrine state, you'd be right, but this is going to be the first real test of the castle doctrine, which I believe is in effect in that state.

this is a case I'm going to follow with interest


But it wasn't his castle, Lou. Sounds as if he really just wanted to shoot at live targets.

[disneyjoe7]

I think it's a sad day when a thief can rob someone or something and not worry about this maybe the last F^cking time I may ever do this again.

To me that was needs to be in the mind of a low life as shooting one dead should be a case for a medal, and not a discussion on who and why he shouldn't have done it.

In fact if an illegal immigrant the Federal Government should send a bonus check of at least 5k, just for the savings to all of us.

[BaggedLancer]

Interesting, would the law be any different for him if who he shot were illegal immigrants?

[disneyjoe7]

Can everyone PM your address please, I'm planning a road trip so to speak.


I changing my career. I now Steal from houses while you work. Real nice I set my own hours can be home when I want, I'm my own boss.

I like the feeling in this country so most likely I would be not shoot and if I did one or two things would happen.

One wounded I sue you now it's mine legally or

Two I get shoot dead not bad gone quick fairly painless.

I have all the time to tan up some.. So I can change my name for my new doctor office just any emergency room in America, no insurance paperwork or bill ever.



Not bad when you think about it, good by rat race....

See you all real soon :D

[disneyjoe7]

Hmmm

Is it best to work West then North to go East. Or North to go West then South. Just planing my road trip.

[sucks2beme]

Can everyone PM your address please, I'm planning a road trip so to speak.


I changing my career. I now Steal from houses while you work. Real nice I set my own hours can be home when I want, I'm my own boss.


See you all real soon :D

Sure. But I do home office, so that would make it a bit interesting.

The issue isn't shooting the bastards, but when. The rules are clear
on when they're in the house.
Polkies need to know when to shoot and when not to. I'm damn glad he shot them, and also damn glad it wasn't me doing the shooting.
He did it all in such a way as to make it real hard to look the other way.
I live in Texas, and if there's anywhere in the U.S. he gets a break it will be here. I wish he hadn't of talked as much with 911. IF your gonna do it, just do it.

[Silverti]

I think it's a sad day when a thief can rob someone or something and not worry about this maybe the last F^cking time I may ever do this again.

To me that was needs to be in the mind of a low life as shooting one dead should be a case for a medal, and not a discussion on who and why he shouldn't have done it.


I don’t think a single person posting here doesn’t think a home robber should get what’s coming to him but I for one don’t think its death and I’m absolutely sure any home robber has it in the back of his mind that the coppers can show up any time and blaze them down for it. Most home invasion (and crime in general) is committed for the acquisition of fast cash to swap for drugs. Throw them in jail a few years get them off the drugs and they may come back out of it as good tax paying people.

We can save the death sentences for child molesters and 1st degree premeditated murderers.

[wingnut4772]

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/waffen/violent-smiley-035.gif

[obieone]

Will somenoe please explain to me, how 2 indivduals, that are here ILLEGALLY, are protected under OUR LAWS?

[disneyjoe7]

Will somenoe please explain to me, how 2 indivduals, that are here ILLEGALLY, are protected under OUR LAWS?

May even have more rights dead then the American citizen who shoot them. Who in my mind called 911 to get the police involved which was taking to long to respond to, due to the fact there most likely not enough police to get the job done. So what is a home owner to do? :confused:



How that's right ... I forgot I rob houses now Love it. ;)

[wingnut4772]

May even have more rights dead then the American citizen who shoot them. Who in my mind called 911 to get the police involved which was taking to long to respond to, due to the fact there most likely not enough police to get the job done. So what is a home owner to do? :confused:



How that's right ... I forgot I rob houses now Love it. ;)

You burglarize houses. You have to get it correct if that is to be your new profession.

[Sami]

Will somenoe please explain to me, how 2 indivduals, that are here ILLEGALLY, are protected under OUR LAWS?

If you have to ask a question that stupid I'm afraid no explanation in the world is going to make you understand.

[disneyjoe7]

You burglarize houses. You have to get it correct if that is to be your new profession.


If I speak like an ID10T to the judge when I get time off with meals it maybe less time off, to get back to my profession. :rolleyes:

[disneyjoe7]

I know this county the rules of shooting so my new business would work here nicely. But I wonder if I expanded on this area of work and say traveled into say Canada or Mexico would they view my new business with open arms, as much as this county? ;)

[ohskigod]

If the neighbors gave him consent, hes still within his rights, even if no immediate threat was posed to him.
-Cody



ding ding ding!

I believe this hapenned in Florida, correct me if I am wrong. Castle doctrine extends to any place you have a legal right to be. If the shooter went over there, and the robbers showed a hint of hostile intent (actually, I believe in FL, home invasion pretty much encompasses hostile threat) there is a bigger window of this guy getting off then some are giving credit too.

would I have handled it different? yeah. I for one want to see this guy get off as a deterrent to home invasion, since as I mentioned, consider a more heinous crime than most people do (whether occupant is home or not)

call me insensitive or whatever, but an aquital here will give home invaders (at least in the state where it hapenned) serious pause before breaking into a house when even the housesitter can plug your ass.

you gotta look at it this way, if the shooter and neighbor were very good friends, its like that house is almost an extension of his, forget about the fact its right nest to his house in the first place. people doing very bad shit near your house can skew your sense of moral judgement.

best way to avoid this, DONT BREAK INTO PEOPLE's HOUSES!!!!!!

how about this....your looking next store, see someone coming out of the house next store with stuff, after they disappear, are you absolutely sure there gone? wanna talk about a sleepless night?

and if the cops come, lets say the robbers get desperate and come into your house.....NOT GOOD.

the shooter took action responding to what her perceived is a threat. he's gonna need an attorney that can build a case in court that he felt threatened. Bad sh*t happening near your house leaves a window for that argument. Like I said, I wasn't there, so I am holding off judgment. that said, if he is acquitted, oh well :rolleyes:

everyone assumes these guys breaking in were just interested in stuff, not hurting people. granted, it seems about 85% possible of that being the case, but are you going to take a chance with your life...or a loved one's with the other 15?

[ohskigod]

Most home invasion (and crime in general) is committed for the acquisition of fast cash to swap for drugs. Throw them in jail a few years get them off the drugs and they may come back out of it as good tax paying people.



Dude, you don't live in the real world. Dont get me wrong, it must be a great world you live in, but it just aint real.

[disneyjoe7]

Is anyone going to answer my very serious life threatening questions here. Would it be best to carry or not? I'm thinking not, that way if I'm shoot in my "Line of Duty" they can't state we're in a gun fight. ;)

[SKsolutions]

Most home invasion (and crime in general) is committed for the acquisition of fast cash to swap for drugs. Throw them in jail a few years get them off the drugs and they may come back out of it as good tax paying people.

The first part may be more often then not, correct, the second . . not so much. Prison is a big business, and it's not in the business of fixing people. After release, the convict has been fully trained in how to be a criminal, and has lost any compassion for anybody but himself. It's graduate school for f'ups, that creates a worse animal.

[Silverti]

Dude, you don't live in the real world. Dont get me wrong, it must be a great world you live in, but it just aint real.

Then people break into homes for? Don’t counter the argument with a personal assault, keep it real... refuting that comment by telling me I don’t live in the real world doesn’t hack it. Post up you’re references.

Every study I have ever seen relates drug use specifically with most crime and the current meth crisis across the country has been increasing the problem lately as drug user seek their next fix.

We are in a nasty meth area and mini-store robberies are going nuts around here. Why do you think a guy takes a gun into a 7-11 and robs it of $50? Really, we can analyze that, lets think of a few things:

1) He just needs some extra cash to buy an Xbox?
2) He needs cash to pay off his mortgage?
3) He’s just a bad guy who likes to do it?
4) He was actually just going for that box of Cigs?
5) He considers it his 9-5 job and does it all day long.
6) His buddies "double dog dared" him to do it?
7) He’s strung out looking for another $50 to get his next hit of meth?

hmmm....


Oh, and heres what the department of justice says about it:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/dcf/duc.htm

[ohskigod]

certainly wasn't a "personal assault", please try not to be so sensitive.

I wasnt referencing the reason for home invasion persay, so there's really nothing for me to reference in that regard just your notion that a couple years of jail and "get them off drugs" being such an easy task.

You can live in a "nasty meth area" all you like. you really have to stare face to face with what drugs can do to a person and what it can make that person do (for reasons far more reaching than just getting drug money)to understand my point, and it is a point, not a personal assault. If you want to regard it that way, thats fine, I would just politly ask you not refer it to a moderator as such.

[disneyjoe7]

Well if I start my new "Business" do I need to be strung out on something. :eek:


May need to rethink this if this requires needles at all, anyone know me I don't like needles. :(

[ohskigod]

Don't worry bud, its not like people don't do crime just for the money sometimes ;)

[disneyjoe7]

Ok but did you PM your address yet ;)

[Sami]

Ok but did you PM your address yet ;)

You didn't save my address did you? Even if you did, remember it's Texas. I can shoot you if you even look at me funny... ;)

[sucks2beme]

[QUOTE=ohskigod;754033]ding ding ding!
would I have handled it different? yeah. I for one want to see this guy get off as a deterrent to home invasion, since as I mentioned, consider a more heinous crime than most people do (whether occupant is home or not)
call me insensitive or whatever, but an aquital here will give home invaders (at least in the state where it hapenned) serious pause before breaking into a house when even the housesitter can plug your ass.
[QUOTE]

A couple things we can all agree on :

We're happy the two thugs are dead.

We hope the guy gets off.

The guy could of handled it better. Telling 911 you're going out to shoot them
wasn't the smartest idea.

At least make enough noise so they turn around, so you can shoot them
from the front.

[wingnut4772]

Well if I start my new "Business" do I need to be strung out on something. :eek:


May need to rethink this if this requires needles at all, anyone know me I don't like needles. :(

It helps if you're coked up and as far as 'carrying' don't worry about it. We'll just 'give' you a throwdown!http://bestsmileys.com/evil/8.gif

http://bestsmileys.com/cops/6.gif

[Sami]

We're happy the two thugs are dead.


Didn't know them so I can't say. Stealing isn't enough to convince me I want them dead.


We hope the guy gets off.


Nope, I hope he gets what he deserves.


The guy could of handled it better. Telling 911 you're going out to shoot them
wasn't the smartest idea.

At least make enough noise so they turn around, so you can shoot them
from the front.

These last two I agree with.

[shack]

A couple things we can all agree on :

We're happy the two thugs are dead.

We hope the guy gets off.

The guy could of handled it better. Telling 911 you're going out to shoot them
wasn't the smartest idea.

At least make enough noise so they turn around, so you can shoot them
from the front.

The only thing I agree with is the guy could have handled it better.

[SKsolutions]

I'm going to karma my drug addict-starter-kit to DisneyJ. No sharps!
Good luck on your new enterprise! Can you tailor kevlar?

[disneyjoe7]

Not sure if I should I be looking forward to such a thing :confused:

[SKsolutions]

Well shit someone take it, I hear sirens. .

[shadowofnight]

http://ai.pricegrabber.com/muze_images/books/4/43/9780964286443_150x150.jpg Absolute best book PERIOD if you own a gun in Calif ( They make other state by state versions...this one is Calif's..updated every year ) to make sure you know the most up to date laws when owning/transporting/shooting/and even capping perps...worth its weight in gold.

[ohskigod]

always good to know your self defense laws across the board in your state. this type of thing for gun owners seems near invaluable

[dorokusai]

That information is also available online.

[disneyjoe7]

There maybe a disclaimer in that book on keeping the lead out of anyone's body.

[shadowofnight]

There maybe a disclaimer in that book on keeping the lead out of anyone's body.

Nope, they discuss what would be considered a legal lethal self defense with a firearm..as well as what would not be considered a legal use of a firearm. Again , its particular to one years law in one particular state...which really makes it valuable.

I bought my first one back when the assault weapon bill passed and my next one when the .50BMG laws were added...those are tricky here in Calif and you have to know them to a T to stay legal and still have those types of weapons.

The sections on lethal force pertaining to self defense are really nice to know...but I still would rather be wrong law wise and still alive with a dead SOB on the ground.

[disneyjoe7]

Ok when you PM your Addy for me can you state when you're at work. I wouldn't like to run into you when your home and I'm not knocking at the front door to get in.

[exalted512]

ding ding ding!

I believe this hapenned in Florida, correct me if I am wrong. Castle doctrine extends to any place you have a legal right to be. If the shooter went over there, and the robbers showed a hint of hostile intent (actually, I believe in FL, home invasion pretty much encompasses hostile threat) there is a bigger window of this guy getting off then some are giving credit too.

would I have handled it different? yeah. I for one want to see this guy get off as a deterrent to home invasion, since as I mentioned, consider a more heinous crime than most people do (whether occupant is home or not)

call me insensitive or whatever, but an aquital here will give home invaders (at least in the state where it hapenned) serious pause before breaking into a house when even the housesitter can plug your ass.

you gotta look at it this way, if the shooter and neighbor were very good friends, its like that house is almost an extension of his, forget about the fact its right nest to his house in the first place. people doing very bad shit near your house can skew your sense of moral judgement.

best way to avoid this, DONT BREAK INTO PEOPLE's HOUSES!!!!!!

how about this....your looking next store, see someone coming out of the house next store with stuff, after they disappear, are you absolutely sure there gone? wanna talk about a sleepless night?

and if the cops come, lets say the robbers get desperate and come into your house.....NOT GOOD.

the shooter took action responding to what her perceived is a threat. he's gonna need an attorney that can build a case in court that he felt threatened. Bad sh*t happening near your house leaves a window for that argument. Like I said, I wasn't there, so I am holding off judgment. that said, if he is acquitted, oh well :rolleyes:

everyone assumes these guys breaking in were just interested in stuff, not hurting people. granted, it seems about 85% possible of that being the case, but are you going to take a chance with your life...or a loved one's with the other 15?
omg!!!!! Are you a mind reader? Exactly my feelings.


HERES A HINT, DONT BREAK INTO SOMEONES HOUSE AND YOU WONT GET SHOT.

And for the ones saying to go outside and try to contain them, go right ahead and tell them to stop and turn around, not knowing if they have a gun in their hand. You might get one, but chances are you wont be faster than the other.
-Cody

[shack]

Stay in your house, call the police, let them do their job...DON'T GO RAMBO like this guy. This is exactly the type of situation that gets more and more gun laws passed. If he wants to protect someone else's house and kill the bad guys...pass the test and join the police force. He is no hero.

[Airplay355]

So if killing them for robbing a house is ok, should we just stick any robber that gets caught in the electric chair? Robbing a house is definitely not acceptable, but the old guy going out there with a shotgun with the intention of killing someone isn't either. He didn't need to get involved and he didn't need to kill them. I just don't think killing is a justified reaction to a robbery where no ones life was in danger.

Think about if it was your kid, doing something stupid because kids do stupid things sometimes. Would it be ok for him to go out there and blow away your kid? Don't respond with something like "my kid would never do that" blah blah, it's hypothetical just think about it.

The fake race issue brought up by Quannel X or whoever he is ridiculous. He's the equivalent of an ambulance chaser, looking for any situation he can exploit and turn into racism. I'm pretty sure I read he was trying to get the government to give money to families who's ancestors were slaves. Geeze...

[Demiurge]

HERES A HINT, DONT BREAK INTO SOMEONES HOUSE AND YOU WONT GET SHOT.'

So....lets extend this line of thinking. Is it a good idea to walk the streets at night killing burglars in your city? I mean, one could argue they're your neighbors, right? :rolleyes:

This isn't even an argument. The guy was wrong and this has nothing to do with gun rights or anything else. I doubt there's a bigger gun enthusiast on the forum than myself save for possibly I-SIG and Steveinaz.

The idea is to avoid trouble, not look for it. If the guy shoots at these guys and they get away he's a hunted man. It's best to let LEOs deal with it unless a direct threat is upon you or your family.

The answer to detering crime is stiffer penalties, which is where we need to start......not with rampant vigilantism.

[Demiurge]

So if killing them for robbing a house is ok, should we just stick any robber that gets caught in the electric chair? Robbing a house is definitely not acceptable, but the old guy going out there with a shotgun with the intention of killing someone isn't either. He didn't need to get involved and he didn't need to kill them. I just don't think killing is a justified reaction to a robbery where no ones life was in danger.

Think about if it was your kid, doing something stupid because kids do stupid things sometimes. Would it be ok for him to go out there and blow away your kid? Don't respond with something like "my kid would never do that" blah blah, it's hypothetical just think about it.

I think I knew what you meant, but I will argue the other side on this. If this was your house with your family inside I do think death is an acceptable outcome for a person burglarizing you. Why? Simple, you have no idea what they're thinking or planning to do to you.

The people that burglarized Sean Taylor's house had no intention of killing him, but he was home and they had guns just in case and they killed him.

What I don't support is leaving your private property to go play police man, and that is why this guy is dead wrong.

[disneyjoe7]

Gun control is to use both hands.

[ohskigod]

I just don't think killing is a justified reaction to a robbery where no ones life was in danger.



a valid point.....but

if you weren't there, how do you know his life wasn't in danger, even if he stayed in the house. in that type of dynamic situation, you don't know.

I see a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking here

this guy saw a breaking and entering happening a short rock's throw away from his house (stifling Demi's walk around the neighborhood argument :D ) He might have genuinely thought he was in danger, and that he was next. we can say we knew what he was thinking, or that he was not in danger from the relative safety of your computer desk and keyboard, but none of us know what he was faced with, and what he was truly thinking.

faced with unknowns, i throw the benefit of the doubt to the guy who woke up in the morning without a preconceived idea of breaking the law and invade someone's home.

our opinions aren't going to mater in the courtroom, the prosecution will have to prove that the shooters intention was just to stone cold kill, with no feeling of threat or danger. thats going to be harder than some of you think given the circumstances

[Airplay355]

Demi I said when no ones life was in danger. He knew no one was home.

I agree, I'm definitely Monday night quaterbacking.

But how can you argue he felt threatened if he went out there, shot them and said "Boom, you're dead".

Listen to the 911 conversation, it's quite clear he was not threatened, he felt "it wasn't right" and the police were taking too long so he needed to do something about it.

If he thought he was next, he should have waited until they were coming towards his house. There was no threat to him, until he went outside I suppose. Either way, he went out there with a shotgun with the clear intention of killing someone. Someone who feels threatened doesn't go hunting.

[exalted512]

So if killing them for robbing a house is ok, should we just stick any robber that gets caught in the electric chair? Robbing a house is definitely not acceptable, but the old guy going out there with a shotgun with the intention of killing someone isn't either. He didn't need to get involved and he didn't need to kill them. I just don't think killing is a justified reaction to a robbery where no ones life was in danger.


Wont hurt my feelings one bit if someone who robbed a house got the electric chair. Now I understand that kids are more susceptible to be influenced by others to do this, so lets make it the chair if youre 21 or over unless you have a damn good reason, what that reason might be would be up to the jury.

This would help cure over crowding of prisons, less pollution as they guys wont be driving, less trash to put in land fills, more than likely lower taxes because we wont be paying for as many prisoners, lower home insurance rates, feel more comfortable about being in your home and not worrying about potential burglars, I could go on.

By my theory, if my son was 21 and got caught burglarizing a house, off him, plain and simple.
-Cody

[exalted512]

'

So....lets extend this line of thinking. Is it a good idea to walk the streets at night killing burglars in your city? I mean, one could argue they're your neighbors, right? :rolleyes:

This isn't even an argument. The guy was wrong and this has nothing to do with gun rights or anything else. I doubt there's a bigger gun enthusiast on the forum than myself save for possibly I-SIG and Steveinaz.

The idea is to avoid trouble, not look for it. If the guy shoots at these guys and they get away he's a hunted man. It's best to let LEOs deal with it unless a direct threat is upon you or your family.

The answer to detering crime is stiffer penalties, which is where we need to start......not with rampant vigilantism.

Walking down the streets shooting burglars, if it were that easy, more would be caught. The fact of the matter is he never left his yard, youre comparing apples to oranges.

Would I have gone about this differently? Hell yes, I never wouldve gone outside. Do I see wrong in shooting them? No, and like I've said before, I'd sure hope my neighbor would do the same.

And again, I will state that Texas law, as of Sept. 1st, 2007, states that with consent, your neighbor can use deadly force to stop a burglary, even if they werent in immediate or direct danger.
-Cody

[Airplay355]

So if they will turn 21 in 3 months, then no chair?

If your son (over 21) robbed a house to get money for drugs because of a severe drug addiction you'd agree with killing him instead of a punishment which involved helping him overcome a physical addiction?

[exalted512]

21 in 3 months, no chair.

And yes. I'm not one to bullshit either. I had some very close relatives of mine get hooked on drugs, people that were like brothers to me, 2 are dead now, and I firmly believe they got what they deserved. Maybe that makes me a bad person, but I'm a firm believer in Darwinism.
-Cody

[Demiurge]

And again, I will state that Texas law, as of Sept. 1st, 2007, states that with consent, your neighbor can use deadly force to stop a burglary, even if they werent in immediate or direct danger.
-Cody

Cite the law please.

[exalted512]

Its Texas Senate Bill 378, I couldnt find the full text online again.
-Cody

[ND13]

21 in 3 months, no chair.

And yes. I'm not one to bullshit either. I had some very close relatives of mine get hooked on drugs, people that were like brothers to me, 2 are dead now, and I firmly believe they got what they deserved. Maybe that makes me a bad person, but I'm a firm believer in Darwinism.
-Cody

:confused::confused::rolleyes:

[MSALLA]

I belive the big issue being delt with is the fact that his naighbors left the house in his care making him responsable for the house. If someone breaks into my house I'm shooting if they come inside. But I think this guy is going to do some time. I don't feel sorry for the robbers but you can't kill someone they is no thret to you or others. There is also talk on the news that on of the robbers got it in the back.

[disneyjoe7]

I don't feel sorry for the robbers but you can't kill someone they is no thret to you or others.


Thinking like this needs to change because this is what the burglars feel also. If the thinking was this guy who shot them in the act is a hero, the Feds should cut him a check in saving all of us green $, we would have less of this BS.

I beginning to feel I work for it, just to store it safely for them one day. NICE.

[george daniel]

Gun control is to use both hands.


+1 ;),,,oh yeah..keep both eyes open. :)

[Demiurge]

Its Texas Senate Bill 378, I couldnt find the full text online again.
-Cody

I found it, and what you said isn't in there. There is nothing that states you can tell your neighbor to use deadly force on intruders of your property. All it says is that you don't have to make an attempt to retreat to defend yourself using deadly force, which I happen to support.

The problem is this man was never in any danger. He was in the safety of his own home watching it all unfold.

SB 378, known as the "Castle Doctrine," removes the requirement that persons attempt to retreat before using deadly force to defend themselves, effective September 1, 2007.

[BAD ASP]

I skim read this thread and have a comment or two. I heard the entire 911 call being played back on the radio. THe caller identified himself as a neighbor and that he had seen two men break into his neighbors house through a basement window. He then told the dipatcher that he had a shotgun and would be going out if the police didn't show up in time to stop the burglars from escaping. The caller and dispatcher had numerous back and forth statements and the caller was warned of the error in his judgement. He was told that non uniformed officers will be arriving momentarily and the dispatcher didn't want any of his officers getting shot nor did he want the caller to be shot. The caller sounded as though he was on a portable phone as he continually updated the scene for the dispatcher. The caller then said that the burglars were coming out with a bag with "stuff" in it and that he was going to go out and shoot them. The dispatcher listened as you could clearly hear the shotgun slide rack and the caller yelling out at the burglars that he was going to shoot. You then could hear the first shot, slide rack and then the second shot. You also then heard the sounds of the police officers yelling to put down the shotgun and get on the ground with his hands over his head. To me the time delay between the shots and the officers voice was only a few seconds, I feel that the burglars wouldn't have escaped...IMO.

I own several guns and I have had to stop a home invasion in my home. My best friend is a retired gang crimes detective and he had advised me that I was fortunate to not have shot the POS who broke into my house. Modern forensics can pretty much determine if the criminal and the victime were close enough to warrant " self defense" and I'm sure that shooting someone in the back will never be labeled as self-defense. I was instructed by my friend that shooting someone face to face in close proximity will fall under the description of self defense with your testimony stating that you were threatened or that the criminial was coming at you. The truth about the circumstances of killing someone will only be known by the shooter. THe shooter will answer to God and will have to live with it for the rest of his / her life. If you've ever killed someone then the feeling never leaves you, justified or not. Ask any soldier who has fought in combat if they feel anything about killing someone and the majority are changed forever. Killing someone over a tv or a stereo is hardly justice but I have already read that some feel it is justifiable. I politely disagree but respect your opinion and I have fought for your right to say / feel that way. SEMPER FI

[exalted512]

I found it, and what you said isn't in there. There is nothing that states you can tell your neighbor to use deadly force on intruders of your property. All it says is that you don't have to make an attempt to retreat to defend yourself using deadly force, which I happen to support.

The problem is this man was never in any danger. He was in the safety of his own home watching it all unfold.

Can you post the link please?
-Cody

[Demiurge]

You're spot on BAD ASP.

[Demiurge]

Can you post the link please?
-Cody

No problem, here's (http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/director_staff/public_information/pr082007a.pdf) a .PDF of all of the Criminal & Traffic laws that went into effect September 1st, 2007 by the State of Texas.

Keep in mind this is an offical document from the Texas Department of Public Safety website.

[exalted512]

"SB 378, known as the “Castle Doctrine,” removes the requirement that persons attempt to retreat before using deadly force to defend themselves."

that?
-Cody

[Demiurge]

"SB 378, known as the “Castle Doctrine,” removes the requirement that persons attempt to retreat before using deadly force to defend themselves."

that?
-Cody

Is there something unclear there?

That's the crux of the bill as stated by the Texas Department of Public Safety.

If you'd like to read through the whole Senate bill, here (http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/tlodocs/80R/billtext/pdf/SB00378F.pdf) it is. Nowhere does the word neighbor appear or state there is any authorization for someone to confront burglars and kill them on someone elses property when nobody is in any physical danger.

The only danger was the danger this home owner created for himself while repeatedly being told not to by the 911 dispatcher.

[SKsolutions]

If there is no existing statue to rule, there will be coincidental reference to other existing statutes. I have no idea if the neighbor by extension thing exists in Texas or not.

[exalted512]

Is there something unclear there?

That's the crux of the bill as stated by the Texas Department of Public Safety.

If you'd like to read through the whole Senate bill, here (http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/tlodocs/80R/billtext/pdf/SB00378F.pdf) it is. Nowhere does the word neighbor appear or state there is any authorization for someone to confront burglars and kill them on someone elses property when nobody is in any physical danger.

The only danger was the danger this home owner created for himself while repeatedly being told not to by the 911 dispatcher.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but thats still not the full bill. The one I read through originally had all the sections lined out, so when you see "habitation as defined by section 30.01", that section was at the bottom of the page.
-Cody

[SKsolutions]

Footnotes!

[phuz]

No charges.

http://www.click2houston.com/news/16749087/detail.html

I love Texas.

[phuz]

Threads merged. Redundant post removed.

[Sami]

That's scary. Makes me think should I start shooting all these preachers and salesmen that show up at my doorsteps...

[ND13]

Wow!!!

I understand the castle doctrine laws, but how did this apply in this case? It was his neighbors house and he shot them in the back. I'd probably shoot someone that broke into my house without blinking an eye, but this is totally different. With my asshole neighbors, I'd probably not even take notice if their places were being robbed;).

[sucks2beme]

That's scary. Makes me think should I start shooting all these preachers and salesmen that show up at my doorsteps...

It's Texas. Bring a chainsaw to the door. That should remove all doubt
that a sale ain't gonna happen.

[sucks2beme]

Bring it on!

[JohnLocke88]

Thank the lord for Texas. At least that shit doesn't fly there. In California, someone has to be violating your loved ones with a hacksaw before you're allowed to do anything; and even then you better plant a gun on them just to be safe.

[Sami]

It's Texas. Bring a chainsaw to the door. That should remove all doubt
that a sale ain't gonna happen.

I figured shooting them brings too much trouble anyways, I'll just scare them off. Yes, sometimes they really are that pesky, especially the ones trying to sell their version of god. They are stealing from me, my time! About the shooter, I wouldn't be too surprised if he's in a coffin within the next few months.

[F1nut]

Excellent!!! I wish Mr. Horn all the best. We need more neighbors like him.

[Sami]

Alrite guys, I'm off to buy some guns now. I sold everything I had to a friend of mine, he had trouble buying from the store because of the background check they do. Now I'm feeling left out of all the fun...

:D

[steveinaz]

Moral of the story: Get a damn JOB like the rest of us, commiting crimes can be hazardous to your health.

[fatchowmein]

deleted

[hockeyboy]

This is Texas man, it is highly unlikely that he will get more than probation for offing two black illegal aliens committing a felony on a white home owner. The biggest problem for Horn in his defense is that the autopsy shows that one of the guys was blasted IN THE BACK. Even in Texas, shooting a man in the back is as low as it gets.

[phuz]

This is Texas man, it is highly unlikely that he will get more than probation...

He won't get anything at all. Local DA isn't pressing charges, and the Grand Jury isn't indicting. Not even a civil suit. The new castle doctrine prevents civil suits in cases like this.

[petrym]

Stop breaking the law to stop getting shot, it's simple.

[shack]

It's a damn shame. Horn should be in jail. He executed someone that was no immediate threat and he didn’t let the cops do the job. He became judge, jury and executioner with a pull of the trigger. Texas obviously condones vigilante justice. They may have been thugs and scum...but the ultimate punishment did not fit the crime. Horn committed a worse than crime that the thieves he killed IMO!

[Rivrrat]

Here in Arizona, if there's an intruder in you house, you can drop him, period. That was recently changed from "imminient danger or threat" or whatever it was called.

Now I don't know about defending my neighbors property. I'm not so sure I'd want to test that one out.

[McLoki]

But where will my tax dollars go now that the robbers won't be in jail living off the state for a few months (if that)? Also, now they will have to import others to commit petty theft and other crime in that area. Its a damn shame and someone should do something about it.

If there are many other people like that getting involved where it does not directly affect them, it could throw a wrench in the whole crime business. Oh sure, its petty theft interrupted now, but think about the affect this could have on rape, armed robbery, extortion, drug dealing and the other crimes that not only survive but flourish when people are smart enough to mind their own damn business.

It will end up getting to the point that crime doesn't pay and thats just not what America was founded on. We should be out protesting in the streets.

[JohnLocke88]

But where will my tax dollars go now that the robbers won't be in jail living off the state for a few months (if that)? Also, now they will have to import others to commit petty theft and other crime in that area. Its a damn shame and someone should do something about it.

If there are many other people like that getting involved where it does not directly affect them, it could throw a wrench in the whole crime business. Oh sure, its petty theft interrupted now, but think about the affect this could have on rape, armed robbery, extortion, drug dealing and the other crimes that not only survive but flourish when people are smart enough to mind their own damn business.

It will end up getting to the point that crime doesn't pay and thats just not what America was founded on. We should be out protesting in the streets.

What's it say about a country that was founded on rugged individualism and self reliance that a man has to be afraid for his rights when he is in the morally superior position. Whether you agree that pulling the trigger was the right thing to do, you must admit that his intentions were nothing short of honorable, attempting to be a good neighbor. Not everyone has insurance, and certain possessions that can be hawked on the street for a few hundred dollars can have insurmountable personal or familial value.

[McLoki]

What's it say about a country that was founded on rugged individualism and self reliance that a man has to be afraid for his rights when he is in the morally superior position. Whether you agree that pulling the trigger was the right thing to do, you must admit that his intentions were nothing short of honorable, attempting to be a good neighbor. Not everyone has insurance, and certain possessions that can be hawked on the street for a few hundred dollars can have insurmountable personal or familial value.

Reread my post from a more sarcastic position.... :D

[amulford]

A little while back here in Jersey a guy was awakened by some noise in his yard very early in the morning (read 2 or 3 AM). He got out of bed, grabbed his pistol and went out to investigate. He found two men breaking into his shed, where he had some expensive toys.

He yelled out to them "FREEZE, I've got a gun! Both of them turned and came toward him, still thirty or forty feet away, and started to shout at him. One of them raised his hand. He's dead. The other guy got capped, but is alive.

He got off, and deserved to, but it was close. They presented it to a grand jury, got the indictment, and the man was aquitted by jury.

[McLoki]

A little while back here in Jersey a guy was awakened by some noise in his yard very early in the morning (read 2 or 3 AM). He got out of bed, grabbed his pistol and went out to investigate. He found two men breaking into his shed, where he had some expensive toys.

He yelled out to them "FREEZE, I've got a gun! Both of them turned and came toward him, still thirty or forty feet away, and started to shout at him. One of them raised his hand. He's dead. The other guy got capped, but is alive.

He got off, and deserved to, but it was close. They presented it to a grand jury, got the indictment, and the man was aquitted by jury.

Just goes to show - if you are going to fire a gun in self defense, don't stop firing until your side of the story is the only one a jury will hear.

[JohnLocke88]

Reread my post from a more sarcastic position.... :D

;) Was it that obvious? Some old photos aren't worth killin someone over. The guy should have just stayed inside; no one was gonna get killed.

[hockeyboy]

It's a damn shame. Horn should be in jail. He executed someone that was no immediate threat and he didn’t let the cops do the job. He became judge, jury and executioner with a pull of the trigger. Texas obviously condones vigilante justice. They may have been thugs and scum...but the ultimate punishment did not fit the crime. Horn committed a worse than crime that the thieves he killed IMO!

"Let the cops do their job?" Bubba, if we count on the corrupt and ineffective police force that operates in typical America to take care of us we are in serious trouble. Those were ILLEGAL aliens (as in not here legally) who almost certainly had malice in their hearts, and would have killed anyone they encountered while committing their crime.

[amulford]

Just goes to show - if you are going to fire a gun in self defense, don't stop firing until your side of the story is the only one a jury will hear.

Damn right. It was determined those two weren't armed, but who could tell. The one who lived did the right thing and told the truth at trial, which was a big part of the acquittal.

This Horn guy isn't the same though. He was wrong, period. Especially if they were headed the other way. If he wanted to detain them, he could have done it. He went for the kill. I don't really agree with what he did...

[shack]

What's it say about a country that was founded on rugged individualism and self reliance that a man has to be afraid for his rights when he is in the morally superior position. Whether you agree that pulling the trigger was the right thing to do, you must admit that his intentions were nothing short of honorable, attempting to be a good neighbor.

Give me a fucking break :rolleyes: All he wanted to do was to be "the hero"...and in the meantime killed two men over some "stuff".

Morally superior? Since when is taking the law above and beyond what is moral a superior position?

[exalted512]

Wow!!!

I understand the castle doctrine laws, but how did this apply in this case? It was his neighbors house and he shot them in the back. I'd probably shoot someone that broke into my house without blinking an eye, but this is totally different. With my asshole neighbors, I'd probably not even take notice if their places were being robbed;).

Castle doctrine, in Texas at least, applies to immediate neighbor's houses as well. (If they give you consent)

It doesn't matter where you shoot them, if they're on the property, fair game(no pun intended).

My hat is off to Mr. Horn. I hope my neighbors would do the same for my house. Hopefully this will serve a lesson to other thieves.
-Cody

[disneyjoe7]

Just goes to show - if you are going to fire a gun in self defense, don't stop firing until your side of the story is the only one a jury will hear.

I wouldn't stop until I ran out of bullets. ;)

[McLoki]

;) Was it that obvious? Some old photos aren't worth killin someone over. The guy should have just stayed inside; no one was gonna get killed.

And I assume there was a signed agreement from the thieves that they would not move on to other crimes, in the future (or past) would never harm anyone and at no point would a crime be perpetrated against any of your family or friends?

Crime such as this is rarely a single event, and when the point is reached that they come across someone in the house and ends up hurting or killing them (in the heat of the moment) there is no wayback machine to change past events.

re-read your old spiderman comics for God sake...

[shack]

"Let the cops do their job?" Bubba, if we count on the corrupt and ineffective police force that operates in typical America to take care of us we are in serious trouble.

Nice commentary on the 99% of the cops that are honest hardworking LEOs.

"Those were ILLEGAL aliens (as in not here legally) who almost certainly had malice in their hearts, and would have killed anyone they encountered while committing their crime.

I'm sure you have a greater insight into what they were thinking....

[exalted512]

HERES A FREAKIN GENIUS IDEA...DONT COMMIT CRIMES, YOU WONT GET SHOT

is it that hard?
-Cody

[shack]

Maybe the next time one of you folks jaywalk or cross against the light they should kneecap you. Gotta protect our safe driving neighbors from you criminals. Get drunk in public...better break you arm so you can't commit another crime. Speeding? Blow the damn car up...the driver is obviously a menace.

I have no problem with punishment...and the thieves certainly deserved to be punished. I have a problem with a so called good citizen with an itchy trigger finger taking the law in his own hands and meting out punishment far and above what was called for.

To be honest....it sickens me that we have a society that is so quick to say they would pull the trigger to kill another human being that poses no physical threat to themselves. I'm out....but I just hope the next time you go and visist a friends house and walk around back to see if they are home when no one answers the door, that the good citizen Horn isn't looking out his window and decides to protect his neighbors property.

[madmax]

The guy on the phone was obviously thrilled about shooting somebody. You can hear in his voice he just can't wait for the thrill. I say death penalty for him.

On the other hand, if he had just shot the punks instead of calling the cops to brag then I would be in his corner 100%.
madmax

[exalted512]

Maybe the next time one of you folks jaywalk or cross against the light they should kneecap you. Gotta protect our safe driving neighbors from you criminals. Get drunk in public...better break you arm so you can't commit another crime. Speeding? Blow the damn car up...the driver is obviously a menace.

I have no problem with punishment...and the thieves certainly deserved to be punished. I have a problem with a so called good citizen with an itchy trigger finger taking the law in his own hands and meting out punishment far and above what was called for.

To be honest....it sickens me that we have a society that is so quick to say they would pull the trigger to kill another human being that poses no physical threat to themselves. I'm out....but I just hope the next time you go and visits a friends house and walk around back to see if they are home when no one answers the door, that the good citizen Horn isn't looking out his window and decides to protect his neighbors property.

Exactly! Because if you see a jaywalker, well, they are def. a threat. And I can def. see how someone can mistake a friend walking around the property as a thief that was seen breaking in with a crow bar and seen running away from a property with a bag of crap.

-Cody

[Sami]

Those were ILLEGAL aliens (as in not here legally)

That should have not made any difference, but it's Texas so the jury was most likely full of racist rednecks so I'm pretty sure it did.

who almost certainly had malice in their hearts, and would have killed anyone they encountered while committing their crime.

That's why they got shot in the back, because they were committed to kill...sure. :rolleyes:

[sucks2beme]

Weren't the perps suspected of other robberies?
I seem to recall they were able to link them to
crimes committed in serveral other states.
These were NOT nice guys. If there was ever
a case I wish for a do over, this was the one.
I wish they had broke into HIS house. Then it
would be cut and dried. I am not too keen on
someone marching over to someone else's house to
kill the bad guys. I have no problem at all with him
blasting away on his property.

[phuz]

Weren't the perps suspected of other robberies?
I seem to recall they were able to link them to
crimes committed in serveral other states.
These were NOT nice guys. If there was ever
a case I wish for a do over, this was the one.
I wish they had broke into HIS house. Then it
would be cut and dried. I am not too keen on
someone marching over to someone else's house to
kill the bad guys. I have no problem at all with him
blasting away on his property.

Yes, one had even been deported for a cocaine charge in the 90's. They both had long histories.

One of them was on his property actually.

It's a very gray area, but I'm glad it worked out the way that it did in the legal sense.

[bobman1235]

I think it's natural for most people, myself included, to be happy or relieved when they hear about what was obviously a criminal being punished. In this case these two lowlifes were probably a drain on society and who gives a crap that they're no longer here.

That being said, the essence of shack's argument is right. It's one thing if someone is IN YOUR home in the middle of the night; they'd get one warning in my house before a bullet to the brain (I wish m