Competing Next Year

[cam5860]

I'm looking to compete in Meca next year. But I'm going to need a complete new setup to be able to hang with the pro's. So I'm going with a all pioneer premier setup and see how I do. I'm going to run the pioneer premier prs 880 headunit. The pioneer premier prs 4100 4 channel amp. The pioneer premier prs components. And the pioneer premier shallow mount subs.

[audiobliss]

Awesome, man. Hope it goes well for you!

I really like the HU you chose and also the...umm, .....well, the uh....., errr......I like the HU!! :)

[cam5860]

Yeah the only thing worrying me right now is that shallow sub. Ive heard mixed reviews on it. A guy at a local stereo shop around here sells them and he said they hit like hell. Buy really I won't know until I hear it for myself and determine if it's good enough.

[exalted512]

They dont sound too great, if you have the room, I'd def. try something else.
-Cody

[1996blackmax]

Nice pick on the components as well.

[cam5860]

I cannot believe how small these premier amps are. These is a 4 channel amp it is rated at 75x4 RMS at 4 ohms, 150x4 at 2 ohms, 300x2 at 4 ohms.

[MacLeod]

Make sure you get something with some processing power. Youre not going to do very well without time alignment definitely and an active crossover and as big an EQ as possible will help a ton as well.

[black magic]

Good luck with that setup. You weren't lying when you said ALL pioneer ;)

[cam5860]

Well I got all the stuff orded today. My total was 962.00 not that bad considering the quality of products I'm getting. I got the headunit for 325.00, The amp cost me 269.00, and the components were 259.00, and last the sub was 109.00.

[black magic]

Thats not a bad price at all. I'm not too familiar with the quality of Pioneer's speakers... except for the stock ones that were in my civic. But i'm just going to assume these sound better :D

[1996blackmax]

Couple of reviews on these.......

http://www.caraudiomag.com/testreports/0612_caep_pioneer_premier_ts_c720prs/index.html

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7302&page=1&pp=10

[cam5860]

Score wise these things are on the same level as the sr's. They both got ratings of 80 out of a 100. The only difference is price. 250 for these and 450 for sr's.

[killerb]

those speakers are supposed to be great sounding components! i was going to get a set for my girls car, but went with phoenix gold comp elites instead. let me know how they sound. good luck.

[cam5860]

Well I got bad news so far. That shallow mount sub I just installed it and listened to it for about 30 minutes setting the amp gain and tweeting on it a little bit. And I must say that it is a piece of ****. Although it sounded about like I thought it would. It sounded great at low to medium volume but try to turn it up and it bottoms out so bad. I have never heard a sub thats sounds this ****ty to be a name brand. I'm putting it on ebay for sale as of now.

[black magic]

Sorry to hear that. At least now you know. "Live and learn", right?

[cam5860]

Well I got my premier amp installed and let me just say I have never heard a amp that sounds this clean and natural in my life. This has to be one of the best sounding amp out right now. It give my mids alot more bass but clean bass with no distortion. It also took the sharpness out of my highs. This amp sounds so natural it's incredible. If anyone gets a chance you should listen to this amp.

[black magic]

*thumbs up*

I don't think I've heard Pioneer's amps.

[MacLeod]

Nice amp but dont fool yourself - a watt is a watt. Dont buy into the "warm sounding" amps or the amps with "broader soundstages". Buy your amps for power, build quality and lack of noise.

[cam5860]

yeah true! But some watts are cleaner than others too.

[cam5860]

That shallow mount sub sounds better than I previous thought. But that premier amp made alot of difference in the way it sounds also. After giving it some break in time it actually sounds decent.

My premier headunit and premier components will be here thursday. I will get them installed over the weekend and update everyone on the sound of the components. I have high expectations of these components with all the positive reviews on them. I hope I'm not disappointed.

[exalted512]

Nice amp but dont fool yourself - a watt is a watt. Dont buy into the "warm sounding" amps or the amps with "broader soundstages". Buy your amps for power, build quality and lack of noise.

Yup, everyone knows its the cables (once properly burned in of course) that give you broader soundstages:p
-Cody

[Josh]

OMG hilarious!^^^^

[MacLeod]

Just wait til I install those cable risers!

[Installer4life]

All amplifiers are not created equal. Some have good power supplies and so don't. The Interfire brand could not even be rated by CA&E during a test because it would not make any power under 1% at any level. Also many amplifiers will have a difference in output between one channel and the other while only having one gain control. The best quality amplifiers reproduce the music as it was recorded without adding anything to the sound. Let the EQ's do that.

[cam5860]

Pioneer and alpine is the only ones to date with the latest technology in amplifiers. The ice power technology they call it. It's a new type of class d technology that doesn't require heatsink because they are so efficent. One listen to these amps and you will hear the difference. I promise you that. These bitches are so clean they will blow your mind. I turned the volume all the way up on my headunit and still could not get my components to distort. Thats how clean these amps are.

[MacLeod]

That has nothing to do with how clean the amps are. Its because they have more power and so you never get into their audible distortion. I guarantee you that if you push them into the 3+% THD range, youll hear plenty of distortion as all will start spitting out audible distortion if pushed hard enough. With proper gain setting, you can set up any amp to where it wont distort even at max volume on the head unit.

The key is to get an amp with enough power so that you can get the volume you desire without having to push the amp into its "redline". This is a matter of power and not Pioneer over Alpine or whatever.

Now as mentioned, all amps arent created or rated equally. Like the Interfire mentioned above. In that review, the Interfire was spitting out almost pure distortion well before it hit its rated power whereas the Crossfire was well passed its ratings before it even came close to audible distortion. That is one of the reasons you buy quality gear - cause itll perform like its supposed to and usually better. Pay attention and research things like power output and build quality as that is what truly separates the Audiobahns from the Zapcos. Dont get caught up trying to find the one with the "smoothest highs" or "tightest midbass" cause those are characteristics of speakers and not amps and youre doing yourself a disservice buying amps on those basis.

[1996blackmax]

Pioneer and alpine is the only ones to date with the latest technology in amplifiers. The ice power technology they call it. It's a new type of class d technology that doesn't require heatsink because they are so efficent. One listen to these amps and you will hear the difference. I promise you that. These bitches are so clean they will blow your mind. I turned the volume all the way up on my headunit and still could not get my components to distort. Thats how clean these amps are.


Actually Eclipse started using ICE Power a little while back too. It's been around for a few years now.


I would put my "old" technolgy amps from Arc Audio (XXK series), and Audison amps against any of the new technology from those companies any day. The nice thing about ice power (class D design) is that they allow you to put more power into a smaller footprint.

[cam5860]

All I know is I am in love with the way my ice power amp sounds.

[cam5860]

ICEpower Amplifier Technology
In the car audio world, ICEpower technology provides enough power to satisfy many music lovers. Don’t stop reading! We know you think amplifiers are only for car audio enthusiasts who want to pound the bass hard enough for everyone else on the freeway to hear. Not so! The goal of a precise sounding amplifier is to amplify the music signal cleanly – free of distortion and unwanted noise.

Pioneer’s newest Class D amps do this using an exclusive ICEpower circuit. ICEpower takes the amplified signal and compares it with the original input signal, compensating for any variance while it suppresses distortion. It also counteracts any imperfections from power supplies. The result: impressive quality audio! The bass is tight with less lag effect and the mids and highs are crisp and airy.

Considering how often you update your music collection, isn’t it also time to upgrade the system that delivers those rocking and smooth sounds? Don’t be complacent. Don’t fall into the trap of sticking with what you’ve got when you know better is within your grasp.

Don’t be a Drag

Some people worry that an amplifier will take up a lot of space or just generally be a drag on their car’s performance. No worries, even your imported compact car is big enough to add an amplifier without eliminating all your trunk space. Pioneer amps with ICEpower circuits are efficient machines: small with a big output. They don’t require a bulky heatsink to dissipate heat, which allows for a more compact design without compromising audio performance. You don’t need a big system to get big sound! There’s less draw on the alternator and less strain on the battery, which means more sound for you.

An awesome sound system should not come at the sacrifice of space or vehicle performance. Upgrade your in-car audio system and get the clear ICEpower sound experience you deserve!



“ICEpower” is a registered trademark of Bang and Olufsen Holding.

[1996blackmax]

This is widely known, and has been around for a little while.

[cam5860]

Yeah I know but theres some guest that read these forums that are not that familar with ice power technology. So I was just informing people about it that might not know.

[MacLeod]

ICEpower Amplifier Technology

ICEpower takes the amplified signal and compares it with the original input signal, compensating for any variance while it suppresses distortion. It also counteracts any imperfections from power supplies. The result: impressive quality audio! The bass is tight with less lag effect and the mids and highs are crisp and airy.

Well, at least you know Pioneer has a really good marketing department.

But not as good as my alltime favorite - Signal Cable's claims for their $60 "magic extension cords".


Unmatched frequency extension and detail retrieval as well as an improved soundstage and blacker background.

I personally think there is nothing better than superior detail retrieval but I prefer my backgrounds to be more a shade of blue.

[1996blackmax]

The info you posted is really just advertising.

Getting an amp that fits your needs, has solid build, and good specs is what it's about. Power is power.....

[cam5860]

If you don't believe there is a difference in power go buy you a jensen amp and compare it to your audison amp.

[1996blackmax]

I said quality amp there bud......I have owned Jensen, and it's not a quality amp. If you think they are, then you are sadly mistaken.

I guess you believe everything that manufacturers advertise though......


100 watts is 100 watts... if both amps have similar specs, and are quality products you are telling me that you can tell the difference?

[MacLeod]

Why would I do that? The Jensen will not be built nearly as well as the Audison. It will also probably have turn off pops out the wazoo.

Now Ill gladly take something like a beefy ole MTX Thunder and match it up against anything out there. Thats something thats built like a tank and will nearly double its rated power cleanly!

[1996blackmax]

I've had MTX Thunder amps before and they were little tanks. Nice quality amps right there.

[exalted512]

I think I'll stick with my huge, inefficient rockford fosagte amps...thatll run .5 ohm for daily driving :)

By the way, me and my boss were doing some more testing on his truck yesterday. We were running his amps at .2 ohms :D
-Cody

[eloplayspolo]

My Thunder Elites Made My Ears Ring When I Got Out Of The Car. Ears Ringing > Icecold Pioneer Technology Imo. :)

[audiobliss]

I think I'll stick with my huge, inefficient rockford fosagte amps...thatll run .5 ohm for daily driving :)

By the way, me and my boss were doing some more testing on his truck yesterday. We were running his amps at .2 ohms :D
-Cody
That's awesome. What amps is he running?

[MacLeod]

That is great to hear! Im glad RF is making asswhoopin' amps again!

[cam5860]

I had a punch 45 amp one time. One of the best amps I have ever owned.

[exalted512]

That's awesome. What amps is he running?

Hes sponsored by DB Drive.
-Cody

[cam5860]

So basically the point you all are trying to make is mtx and kicker amps sound the same because there high quality products. Or in other words you can't tell a difference in name brand amps. I don't buy it because I can tell a big difference in different brands of headunits.

[MacLeod]

The point we're trying to make isnt that there is no difference between brands of amp. We're saying that if you compare them equally (i.e. no bass boost, EQ's off, crossovers off, level matched and not clipping) there wont be an audible difference between amps or CD players for that matter.

Of course a more expensive amp will have better features such as a more accurate crossover or be totally noise free or giving you a lot more power than its rated at or being built like a tank - where a cheaper brand could have turn on/off pops, make less than its rated power making it clip sooner, have noisy or inaccurate crossovers or bass boost and so on. Those are the differences in amps and the reason you should buy quality gear. Not because they have a distinct sound.

There have been double blind A/B tests done for decades and NOT ONCE has anybody ever proven they can tell a difference between Brand X and Brand Y amp.

Think about it like this - why would you want to put a component in your signal path that CHANGED the sound? Wouldnt you want a completely transparent reproduction? So if a $300 MTX amp can reproduce the input signal completely transparent (ruler flat from 20-20 KHz) then how could a $1000 Audison amp reproduce it MORE transparent?

[cam5860]

Yeah I see what your trying to say there. But I swear I can hear a difference in my kenwood excelon amp and my pioneer premier amp. My tweeters are alot brighter and sharper with my kenwood amp. Where as with the pioneer the vocals are much cleaner with a flat more natural sound.

[cam5860]

Oh yeah by the way I got my pioneer 880 installed tonight and let me say i'm stunned at how damn good this sucker sounds. It blows my kenwood excelon away. I have never owned a deck thats sounds this clean and I have owned every brand there is. I'm going to get my components installed tomorrow. Which now i'm like a little kid when it comes to speakers and stuff. I get so excited I got my components right beside my bed so I can look at them and admire them every chance I get. I'm sick to this **** though. Anything new I get to install puts me on a major high. Me getting new car audio stuff makes me as happy as someone buying a new car.

[1996blackmax]

So basically the point you all are trying to make is mtx and kicker amps sound the same because there high quality products. Or in other words you can't tell a difference in name brand amps. I don't buy it because I can tell a big difference in different brands of headunits.


You are comparing apples to oranges......


You started with amps, and then did not answer my question from two days ago. Now you say you don't buy it because HU's sound different to you.



I actually believe that you can tell a difference between HU's. The thing is that it's with HU's that are in a whole other league than what you and I currently have. Things like the Pioneer P9 setup, Sony CDX-90, Alpine CDA-7949/PXA-H600 and other high end HU's. All these units were over $1000, with the Alpine setup coming in at $1500, Sony at $1200, and the Pioneer at around $2000. The differences are subtle, but they are there. With everything set flat you could tell the difference when going from one of these setups to something like what you and I currently have. My CDA-7998, while a very nice HU was a downgrade SQ-wise when compared to my 7949/H600 combo. These units that I mentioned all had higher quality parts as well as four 20bit Burr Brown DAC's for the Sony and Alpine.


Link to Sony's CDX-90

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-ZpQXfq4DxCU/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?I=158CDXC90&search=sony+CDXC90


Look at the price here at the bottom of the page, and keep in mind this was from quite a little while ago.

http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?i=158CDXC90&search=sony+CDXC90&tp=5684&tab=other_items





Pioneer P9 combo..


http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/v3/pg/product/details/0,,2076_310069882_34724,00.html

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/v3/pg/product/details/0,,2076_310069882_35384,00.html



Some archived stuff from the processor that went with the CDA-7949. Many of the links are broken, but some still work.

http://web.archive.org/web/19990424075822/www.alpine.com.au/promo/tpsound.html

[Thom]

I saw that C90 on Crutchfield's page and wondered how they could still have any of those. Then I saw the out of stock. Haha. My buddy had one of those many years ago. When he wrecked his car I got it from him but found that I hated the display. Which is a pretty important thing when in a car. I've still got my CDX- C900, the bad ass unit from before that. I think that went for $900 retail back in '97 or '98. The "best" CD player I ever had was the Denon Z1. I liked it a lot, but can't honestly say that I heard any differences between any of them. Sure, if the voltage out is different that'll make a big difference. But I guess when comparing nice to nice...

Now I've got the Alpine X001 running my ipod and that sounds great. I don't miss the days of CD/ MD changers... :D

[Aimen RG]

power amps are supposed to be transparent
HU is a pre amp/processor. it has alot more liberty to sound different than power amps.

[MacLeod]

I have to admit it would be awful nice to have an Ipod source and have 3000 songs at your finger tips. But I usually resist the latest trends. I held on to cassette tapes as long as I could and didnt give in and get my first CD player til 1992. Im sure Ill do the same thing with CD's and resist getting an MP3 source for as long as I can. :D

[eloplayspolo]

6500+ songs = just dumb to bring aroudn with u in a car, ipod is my savior

[1996blackmax]

power amps are supposed to be transparent
Exactly....


I do enjoy the flexibility the new units provide when it comes to listening to the newer music sources. Eventhough I have the ability to use an i-Pod, I mostly listen to cd's. I do like having the i-Pod and MP3/WMA encoded cd's when going on trips/long drives. Having to mess around with cd's while traveling at highway speeds is not something I do not want to do.

If my previous setup (CDA-7949/PXA-H600) could read CD-R's without a problem, it would still be in my car. I would not mind having to use CD's and a changer. The processor actually would also take the signal from the Alpine changer in the digital domain through the fiberoptic connection. This setup sounded better than any unit I've had from Alpine, Eclipse, and Pioneer since that time... and I've gone after higher gear from each of those companies.

[cam5860]

I'm catching hell trying to get these components installed. They are oversized 6 3/4 and the magnet is almost as wide as the speaker. I had to cut my doors out some on one side so they would drop in then my speaker brackets were only 6 1/2 so I have been trying to sand them down so I can mount them in the brackets. Never had this much trouble installing a component set. As deep as the momo's are I never had to cut my doors out for them to drop in.

[1996blackmax]

Why not make MDF mounts?

[black magic]

^ what he said. They also work better than plastic since they're sturdy.

[cam5860]

If I make a mdf spacer the speaker will stick out to far from the door panel.

[eloplayspolo]

do a combo of both, mount the speaker on the door pannel, and cut away what u need to from the door, find that distance, make an mdf spacer for that distance inbetween and vwalla!

[MacLeod]

You can buy MDF in thickness ranging from 1/4" up to 1". You should be able to find the right size to fit.

[cam5860]

well I just got in! I finished them up tonight, even though they were a bitch. I have not had much time to listen to them but from what I heard so far I'm impressed at the smoothness of the midbass. I have a few pics from when I was installing the mids.

[exalted512]

Looks good, but I'd highly suggest getting rid of the stock plastic baffle and invest in some MDF rings.
-Cody

[cam5860]

I got the pioneer premier 880 installed also. The sound quality on this headunit is incredible and I thought my kenwood excelon deck sounded good. Not even close to this unit. I have one serious issue with this deck right now though. My alternator is whining like hell through my subwoofer. I have already cleaned the ground going to my amp and made sure it was a good ground. I guess where I screwed up was when I run the ground from the headunit through the factory harness. I'm going to try to ground the headunit to the frame somewhere and see if thats solves the problem. Pioneer needs to doing something about this ground issue.

[MacLeod]

Yup. Pioneer head units = noise. Maybe youll get lucky and itll be an easy fix.

As for those baffles, I agree with Cody that MDF is the best BUT the plastic ones will work just fine if you slap some Dynamat on them. Thatll stiffen them up enough that there wont be any issues so long as youre not running 1000 watts to them.

[1996blackmax]

When installing a Pioneer HU you must make sure that the HU is not getting any power. You could blow the Pico fuse inside which then leads to a good amount of whine.

MDF is the way to go for the mounts......

[MacLeod]

Or you could just buy an Alpine head unit and youd be set. :p

[1996blackmax]

telling it like it is...... :D

[exalted512]

Only advantage to an Alpine is the use of the H701:p
-Cody

[cam5860]

My plastic baffles are pretty strong I siliconed the hell out of them to make sure they are strong and air tight. Blackmax what do you mean about installing the pioneer headunits. What I normally do is tie my pigtails together first and then when I get ready to install my headunit I just snap it into the factory harness and to the headunit. No splicing and dicing in the car.

[black magic]

Only advantage to an Alpine is the use of the H701:p
-Cody

Thats the plan in the spring :D

[eloplayspolo]

i hate my 9885, no processor for it :( and its one of the top of the line and was the top when i got it.

[1996blackmax]

Only advantage to an Alpine is the use of the H701:p
-Cody


Not if you have the CDA-9887. :cool:




My plastic baffles are pretty strong I siliconed the hell out of them to make sure they are strong and air tight. Blackmax what do you mean about installing the pioneer headunits. What I normally do is tie my pigtails together first and then when I get ready to install my headunit I just snap it into the factory harness and to the headunit. No splicing and dicing in the car.


They are still plastic.

The problem with Pioneer units arise when you plug/unplug the RCA's with the unit having power.



i hate my 9885, no processor for it :( and its one of the top of the line and was the top when i got it.

That is why I went with other top units from other companies, like Eclipse. Unfortunately Alpine's units have been lagging far behind in the processing department when compared to other units from other companies. They came back with the CDA-9887. Now the 9887 is a nice unit, but they also have skimped back on a few things on it when compared to what Alpine use to put out (CDA-7998, CDA-9835). I think my Eclipse CD7000 overall is a better SQ unit than my CDA-9887 (not using the Imprint processing), just not as easy to use. I do not like multi-directional knobs. I prefer actual buttons. The built in processing in the CD7000 owns the non-Imprint one in the Alpine unit.

[Installer4life]

I like the Alpine PDX series but have had bad luck with the Eclipse amplifiers. Even the eclipse technical support personnel admit that their amps are noisy. I actually thinkd Eclipse quality is lacking since they signed on with Circuit City. They just have to many little things that do not work as intended. You are much better off going with a Pioneer Z2 with all the accessories than a loaded up nav system from Eclipse.

[1996blackmax]

I do not think that a company signing of with Circuit City has anything to do with the quality of their products. People were saying the same thing about Kicker. I've ran Kicker amps for years, even their new line, and have been pleased with them the whole time. I would still be running Eclipse HU's if they were a little easier to use.

[MacLeod]

Im with Max. Kicker kicks ass (no pun intended) and Id have absolutely no reservations on running any of their amps or subs (speakers are a different story).

MTX is another fine example. Some of the best amps and subs with about the best build quality on the market today and theyve been sold in Circuit City since forever.

Polk is sold in Circuit City, and I dont think any of us would question their quality.

Gear sold at CC and BB get a stigma they dont deserve. Sure CC and BB have low price and low quality stuff, but that doesnt mean all their gear is crappy.

They have the Verge and other crap for the entry level high school kids and then they have the Alpine and Kicker for those that want the good stuff.