Bi wired?

[tiger763]

I wonder if anyone can tell me what bi wired is?I see it being mentioned on the threads if it is something that should be done?
:confused:

[HBombToo]

there are alot of searches you can do regarding bi-wire&amping. Many are very funny and will put you into hysterics.

HBomb

4th Beer and I'm ready for more

[HBombToo]

Oh... don't forget bi-Amping

[tiger763]

I will check into that right away!

[TroyD]

Oh man, you wanna see the retard parade in full swing? Let's start this over again.


BDT

[HBombToo]

BDT, Take care of US civilians out here! We are All counting on ya.

[TroyD]

Man, I'm half in the bag, I ain't protecting shee-at today. I'm listening to Fleetwood Mac and having a few MHL's for nascarmann.....I'll have one for you as well, amigo.

BDT

[HBombToo]

I'm withya!

[Frank Z]

Since I'm the only one sober around here....

Bi-wiring is simply adding a second set of wires (or a special bi-wire cable) to your speakers and removing the metal straps that connect the binding posts together. Failure to do so will cause serious damage. (Check your manuals for a better/more technical explaination.)

Some people feel that there is an increase in sound quality. Another one of those try it and see if it sounds good to you kinda things!

[phuz]

Originally posted by Frank Z

Bi-wiring is simply adding a second set of wires (or a special bi-wire cable) to your speakers and removing the metal straps that connect the binding posts together. Failure to do so will cause serious damage. (Check your manuals for a better/more technical explaination.)


Yep. It looks kinda like this... :)

http://www.txraves.org/phuz/gear/deltron_jpw2.jpg

In most cases, the top set of wires sends power to the top half of the spectrum (mids/highs) and the bottom set of wires sends power to the low end (subs, or drivers crossed over on the low end).

I could be wrong, but I think the principle behind it is seperating the signal/power before it enters the crossover so the crossover has to do less work? *shrug* I dunno....

[Dr. Spec]

Originally posted by phuz
I could be wrong, but I think the principle behind it is seperating the signal/power before it enters the crossover so the crossover has to do less work? *shrug* I dunno....

Phuz crushed this answer............nice photo quality too! That is exactly the reason to bi-wire - to bypass part of the crossover and send a supposedly less processed or "purer" signal to each speaker.

Doc

[mantis]

Yes,
In a nutshell.Bi wirng is it's simplest form is just that 4 conductors from a single amp out.Speakr is hooked up like the pic.One pair top posts and the other pair bottom post.

I have found bi wiring to make a great difference.Clear high's,punchier and tigher mid range and the bass seems more controled.I never heard it make the sound worse.
It's a good technic for one looking for a good relatively cheap upgrade.(depends on what wire you buy to support cheap or affordable,bi wire cables can break the bank).

[mantis]

O troy......by the way...we can now get past the bi wire thing.........my speakers now are bi wirable by everyones standards...........ok?......Can we now agree on this??????

[TroyD]

Good for you Dan, we are all impressed. Now if you were to take your RT1000's and perform Ken's biwiring test side by side with the LSi's you would understand why we said you couldn't biwire them.

BTW, I am curious about one thing though. Before you got your LSi's, it seemed that all you could do was rave about the Dynaudio's and B&K (allday). The search was over, that was the perfect setup. I'm curious what prompted the purchase of the LSi's? If I remember correctly, the demo or two that you had was pretty lackluster.....Don't get me wrong, I think it's cool that got them, I'm just wondering why.

BDT

[TroyD]

Tiger,

The principle behind it is this: In a two way design, at a certain point the crossover essentially crosses the signal over from the mid/bass side to the tweeter side. The theory with biwiring (biamping works on the same principle) is that you have a set of binding posts for each side allowing you to power them independently.

Having said that, I think if it is offered as an option on your speakers, you should try it. How much actual benefit there is, is a subject to debate.

BDT

[mantis]

Troy,
I feel good about how I wired the rt1000p's right, wrong,ghetto,whatever term you want to call it...It was speaker level to both binding posts,I got a sonic tonal improvement and that was enough for me......I really don't want to open that can of worms again.....I'll just say it sounded better and that the goal of any upgrade isn't it.??????can we agree with at?I'll leave the TERM out of this to save another pissing match over wiring.

The Question you asked about why I went Lsi over Dynaudio ...well there are alot of reasons......I will tell you a couple of them.Before I get started.....B&K is always a fine choice for alomst any system.they make wonerfull products and give you a ton for your money..........Rotel won my heart in sound quality only.I feel Rotel has a much cleaner more dynamic sound then B&K....Not to take anything away from B&K,I feel there pre amps smoke Rotels for inputs,features,etc......but they lack that ever last bit of purity I desire...I'm willing to sacrfice inputs and features for sonic purity........

Now the Dynaudio and Lsi thing...........I went back and forth..yes you are correct with my demo's on Lsi.......the Dynaudio had Rotel runing it most of the time,B&K,and Mart levinston....then Pioneer Eltie vsx49tx......At Soundex where I used to work before I desided to return to Tweeter.The Lsi 15's had Yamaha rxv1,Pioneer Elite vsx47tx running them where I demo'd.The room sucked ass as well.But They did catch my attention when I started to run Lorenna Mckennitt.Man the female voice choked me up inside.......They moved me.....The dynaudio Audience 72's would be a perfect vs battle for the lsi 15's...the Audience 82's might have the last word in detail and bass responce.....close....The Lsi15's I desided to bring home for the ultimate demo ....after hearing them crap out my Denon avr3801,I went to the Stereo Exchange as I wanted to test Rotel on them as I have Installed Rotel so many times for Soundex and was WOWed everysingle time....Match made in heaven..........not at first......when I first hooked it up.....I said o shit what have I done...it sounds like hell,then the amp warmed up and look out...dude I was so Impressed with the sound,I just knew at that moment that this was what I was searching for.....This is the short version by the way.

I wasn't looking for just 2 channel speaker but a home theater package......the Audience line doesn't offer a Bi poalr/DI polar type speaker, the Lsi 's do....and I so loved my fx/500's,they are on e bad ass speaker.I listened to the Lsi/fx's and they just blew me away.....god the Lsi line is good.......I'm completely got them in my SOLE...........I'm all about them.Even picky ass liv4fam listened to the Rotel/Lsi combo and said WOW/Damn there good.......he normally beats everything up, but he was hard pressed to do so.He even felt they destroyed his new Def Tech's and B&K setup,which we both agree is a fantastic sounding system.....
I feel all you guys should one day own Lsi.....what a achivement from Polk........my hat is off and I'm kneeling on one knee.......

[RuSsMaN]

PUKE. Troy, why do you provoke this? Can you really even fight through reading this crap, or do you just love to watch him type? UG.

;)

-R

[mantis]

Well Russ seems like you enjoy reading it.If I post.......you post.Puke huh.....don't side step the bowl.........

[RuSsMaN]

'when I first hooked it up.....I said o shit what have I done...it sounds like hell,then the amp warmed up and look out'

That much difference, from 'hell' to 'look out' on a cold vs warm Rotel (ss)?

'Even picky ass liv4fam listened to the Rotel/Lsi combo and said WOW/Damn there good.......he normally beats everything up, but he was hard pressed to do so'

Well, thats just funny in and of itself, and I imagine is pretty much on-target...

Cheers,
Russ

[mantis]

Well that wasn't such a bad post Russ.......I don't see the humor in my post you quote,but if you get a laugh out of it,cool.

[HBombToo]

OK help me out here guys... Is Rotel a tube amp or something? I did not think so but what the hell do I know anyway. If there are no tubes then what needs warmed up? its solid state right... For me I figure the power supply caps take a few msec to charge and thats it???

Confused is the HBomb

[TroyD]

No you aren't missing anything HBomb, it's a solid state amp. It must be some special cap that Rotel has. Either that or Dan had too much of that special tea....

BDT

[mantis]

and the nieve speak's again...............so solid state amps need not to be warm to perform there best...........yeah I must be drinking some kind of special tea..........what the hell do I know anyways......

[HBombToo]

I'm just saying as things warm up the noise floor of solid state devices will increase hence the reason for huge heat syncs and fans....

[mantis]

Gee should I install it in a cold box???teach me I'm all eyes

[TroyD]

Originally posted by mantis
and the nieve speak's again...............so solid state amps need not to be warm to perform there best...........yeah I must be drinking some kind of special tea..........what the hell do I know anyways......

OK, so lay it out for me. Just what is it in a SS amp that needs to warm up? Do tell.......

HKF

[rlw]

I have to agree with Mantis, to a degree.

<choke, sob>

I can definitely hear a difference in my sand amps after they've warmed up. It takes a couple of hours to get most of the way there. So, I leave 'em on 24x7 [unless we're expecting a lightning storm].

Unfortunately, I can't explain it. A friend of mine, who builds high-end gear [Bob Crump, of CTC Builders and ParaSound], explains that on SS gear with multiple output transistors, the bias current on each one varies a bit until thermal stability is reached.

I can't say that the sound goes from hell to heaven, or whatever, but there's an audible change.

[TroyD]

I dunno, I've never listened for it to be honest but I will say I've never really honestly experienced it and certainly not to the extent where it would make a drastic change in sound quality.

I'm not saying there isn't something to it but I'm a little skeptical.

Hey, there is nothing wrong with agreeing with Dan, it just makes for good fun when you don't.

HKF

[HBombToo]

mantis, I'm not being sarcastic in any way at all. It just seems counter intuitive to me for warmup time on solid state.

Example, does a computer work faster after its been on for a while? I don't think so but would be the same analogy... would it not? you guys have a hell of a lot more experience than me and I'm just trying to figure this whole thing out.

[Steve@3dai]

I think it's a matter of voltage regulation among the caps and such. More than likely there is a variation of voltage until the parts come to a "normal operating temp". Just like computer parts are tested at temperatures, they have a "normal operating temp" that they work better at (CPU is included, as if it gets too cold, things happen too slow... even though that's wayyyy down there).

[STUFFMD]

Hey Tiger ,
I know your relatively new to the forum, don't mind the fellas arguing and sniping, to most of us it is in fun...........One thing I thought I might mention is that you don't have to go out and spend a fortune on special cables to bi-wire, you can use just 2 sets of speaker wires to accomplish the relatively the same thing, and somthing else I am not seeing is that both cables will originate from the same posts on your amp. Good Luck
Peace StuffMD

[mantis]

TroyD,
If you never listened for a difference ,then why do you post about which you have no understanding........try before you speak......you always want someone to tell you.........eff it.....try yourself.Be your own person instead of someones elses shadow......

[mantis]

r/w,
what am I some kind of outcast in here......you regret to agree with me.......whatever.........

sorry if I actually know what I'm talking about.....

listen up all of you.......agree disagree with me I could care less........fools let the blind lead them I say....or should I say nieve.....maybe people who want to wear other peoples pants instead of there own............

[phuz]

"fools let the blind lead them..."

"Think for yourself. Question authority."

Good stuff.

Dan, I think that's usually what goes on here. You usually end up the target because of the way you present your opinions and experiences. No offense intended... just an observation.

[TroyD]

Dan,

What I'm saying is this, I'm pretty if it the difference were that pronounced I'm fairly certain that I would have heard it (and I've owned separate amps a hell of a lot longer than you have). Meaning I don't hear it so with my amps I'm saying that the whole warmup thing is a NON-issue. I'm also going to go out on a limb and say that with any solid state amp the difference is not going to be a night and day difference.


BDT

[mantis]

Troy,
I don't care what you hear at all......nor what you say about this topic....like everything you post...you can't hear anything.......wire different power rating's.......now warm or cold amps.......dude do you listen to your rig????

phuz,
those comments are not intended for anyone but Troy.....

[mantis]

Here's what I got to say about this whole warm up a non tube....solid state amp thing......

MY AMP sounds better TO ME after a couple of minutes after I turn it on.......old age?needs to fill the caps???I didn't build the thing nor do I have a complete in depth understanding of how and why amps do what they do........I played guitar since I was 9.I owned both tube amps and solid state......they both sounded there best after they where warmed up......the tube amp made the biggest difference in sound quality.........

My post might have been alittle extreme with the sounds like shit and then fantastic.........I was waiting to be blown away when I installed the Rotel gear,and I believe I was let down at first.Then after some time playing around with it.......I noticed it sounding like the way I remember the Rotel rsx1065 responding.

[HBombToo]

All I was leaning toward was the fact that any component from a resistor through a capacitor has a spec rated over a min and max temp. The temperatures typically range from sub zero/freezing to 100's of degrees F and our equipment is always in a very stable, room temp, environment nowhere close to the extremes.

How can there be that much of a diference is confusing to me.

Thats all... and no disrespect intended.

HBomb

[TroyD]

Oh, but I thought you were into bench testing and all so I figure sure you would have all the answers.

I never said there wasn't a difference in wire Dan, but at my price range, yes, they are all pretty close, I'd say.

In my experience, there isn't a perceptible difference in warm or cold operation, nor given my understanding (be it minimal) of how a SS amp works, should there be.

BDT

[mantis]

I'm in no way shape or form going to even try to convince you otherwise.

My only ......ever point in all my posts in here is 2 give things a try yourself.If you hear it or not.........thats my only point......wire.........equal power......heat......or any other subject at hand.

I believe after reading some of the posts made my a number of you,It comes to my attention that my opnion is based off of fact.It's not ......it's just my findings in this fun and exciting hobbie of ours.

It's completly cool with me if any one of you do not agree with me.Your rig's and mine are different,in different enviroments,etc.

Dan

[rlw]

My take on biwiring.

Any circuit can be characterized by it's LCR: inductance, capacitance, and resistance.

If you have a pair of bi-wireable speakers, and you don't bi-wire them, you have a strap attaching the upper post to the lower post.

Your single wire, plus the strap, will have a certain LCR characteristic.

If you then biwire the speakers, you have removed the strap, and you have a different set of LCR characteristics. Every time you change LCR characteristics in a circuit, you introduce some phase shift - unless you specifically design your circuit to not phase shift [e.g., you can specifically design a crossover circuit to not introduce phase shift]. Phase shift certainly can change the perceived sound of a signal.

Whether the new LCR characteristics will sound the same, better, or worse is something you have to rely upon your ears to determine.

There is no way to separate the "highs" from the "lows" with biwiring: even if your receiver/amp has different binding posts, they share the same power rails and ground strap - in effect, your biwires will always be tied together at the amp end. If a pair of wires is tied together at the amp end, all current will flow through each wire, including all back EMF from the speakers.

In my experience, it always sounds better to replace the stock binding strap with a good-quality wire jumper, and instead of biwiring, invest that money into a single set of upgraded speaker cables - go for one good set, instead of 2 so-so sets. If you can't afford the next "better" wire, save your coin.

[rlw]

Originally posted by HBombToo
mantis, I'm not being sarcastic in any way at all. It just seems counter intuitive to me for warmup time on solid state.

Example, does a computer work faster after its been on for a while? I don't think so but would be the same analogy... would it not? you guys have a hell of a lot more experience than me and I'm just trying to figure this whole thing out.


I don't think that the speed of the computer is a good analogy. If what we're talking about are the bias currents of output transistors, I don't think that applies at all in the computer case.

The amps I have have many output transistors, each doing it's part in power the speaker. I can see if bias current is slightly different, there's going to be some kind of impact.

In fact, a lot of proponents of low-powered (a couple of watts) tube amps claim that it's the multiple output devices that make SS amps sound worse than tubes: the many transistors will never sound as coherent as a single tube, and you'll experience phase-shift, time-smearing, and a slew of subtle effects that tube amps avoid.

Like I said, in my experience, the difference is audible, but not "hell" and "heaven". My system sounds good even without warmup, but better with the warmup.

[rlw]

Originally posted by mantis
r/w,
what am I some kind of outcast in here......you regret to agree with me.......whatever.........

sorry if I actually know what I'm talking about.....

listen up all of you.......agree disagree with me I could care less........fools let the blind lead them I say....or should I say nieve.....maybe people who want to wear other peoples pants instead of there own............

Mostly jesting, don't worry.

However, *I* do find your typical claims to be pretty wild. Combined with what *I perceive* as a pretty condescending attitude [the whole "I'm an installer, I'm god, listen to me" schtick], it makes the majority of your posts difficult to swallow.

Perhaps if you changed your style a little bit, and fixed the sticking "." key, I'd find it easier to understand what profound bits of wisdom you're trying to convey. Take that for what it's worth - other people might feel differently, other people might feel the same.

.02, and no offense intended.

[kanicker]

Shot in the dark, but don't the environmental characteristics of a room alter the acoustics?

For example, wouldn't a large amplifier affect the humidity and temp. in a room? I belive that would have an effect on what you hear to some degree...