HDMI Video Switching - Am I missing something?

[BaggedLancer]

Maybe I am missing something incredibly important here but what is the fascination with HDMI video switching on receivers? Sure it maybe be easier to not have to change the input on your TV each time you change the setting but can't even a cheap universal remote from logitech take care of this?

Also, those of you that have HDMI receivers, do you use the sound from the HDMI cable or do you run a separate optical cable still for audio?

From my point of view I feel like HDMI is still too new of a technology to make a $1200 or more receiver investment when at the blink of an eye we could go to HDMI 1.4, 1.5, etc. making your new receiver outdated. Also, it just seems like an unneccessary 1 more step for your HDMI to reach your tv and potentially create an HDCP handshake issue.

Anyone care to enlighten me what the hype for HDMI receivers is?

[Ricardo]

You mean you don't have HDMI switching????? man, you are missing soooo much......:p

[BaggedLancer]

You mean you don't have HDMI switching????? man, you are missing soooo much......:p

Haha, that's kinda what I'm figuring(with the sarcasm that is). HDMI just seems to me one of those formats that you don't want to interrupt at all because of handshaking and compliance issues.

Like I said though...maybe I'm missing something.

[Early B.]

Good question. I've been trying to get an answer as well. I think most of it is marketing hype. I haven't heard anyone say HDMI is superior for audio yet, even with the new HD processing formats. Hell, some people still argue that component video is better than HDMI.

[MikeC78]

It's the ease of using only one cable for video and audio, and getting the best of both worlds through one cable.

HDMI has an extremely high bandwith through a single cable, capable of pipelining the new audio codecs. Something which is not feasable using an optical cable. Otherwise, you'd have to resort to the good old fashioned audio outs, which in turn needs a lot more cables and clutter. Welcome to newest technology...

[Early B.]

It's the ease of using only one cable for video and audio, and getting the best of both worlds through one cable.

HDMI has an extremely high bandwith through a single cable, capable of pipelining the new audio codecs. Something which is not feasable using an optical cable. Otherwise, you'd have to resort to the good old fashioned audio outs, which in turn needs a lot more cables and clutter. Welcome to newest technology...

Uh-huh, but does HDMI sound better than optical or coax? More bandwidth doesn't necessarily translate into better sound.

[BaggedLancer]

Good question. I've been trying to get an answer as well. I think most of it is marketing hype. I haven't heard anyone say HDMI is superior for audio yet, even with the new HD processing formats. Hell, some people still argue that component video is better than HDMI.

I'm definately a believer HDMI video is better than component video and have seen it with my own eyes on my TV. As far as audio, I don't know.

It's the ease of using only one cable for video and audio, and getting the best of both worlds through one cable.

I know what an HDMI cable is, thanks. :p

HDMI has an extremely high bandwith through a single cable, capable of pipelining the new audio codecs. Something which is not feasable using an optical cable. Otherwise, you'd have to resort to the good old fashioned audio outs, which in turn needs a lot more cables and clutter. Welcome to newest technology...

Can you provide a link showing that optical cables cannot pass the new audio codecs? I'm mainly looking for some hard facts on this subject because I know eventually my 2801 is going to find it's way out.

[Early B.]

Can you provide a link showing that optical cables cannot pass the new audio codecs? I'm mainly looking for some hard facts on this subject because I know eventually my 2801 is going to find it's way out.

Read this thread: http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58666

It has links which discuss this issue. The short answer is -- optical cables can pass the new audio codecs, but not the full signal because they are down converted.

[BaggedLancer]

So what I'm gathering is the whole reason people go for the receiver with HDMI switching is for the audio and not the video? Strange but I guess it makes sense.

[bobman1235]

So what I'm gathering is the whole reason people go for the receiver with HDMI switching is for the audio and not the video? Strange but I guess it makes sense.

I think it's the main reason yes. What you said above is absolutely right - why spend the money just for the convenience of pressing one less button and having one less wire? The real reason is to get things like "TrueHD" sound.

[bdaley6509]

I made the jump to HDMI switching primarily for convenience purposes, but to be honest, the handshaking issue is definately a drawback. There is a substantial delay in audio and video responsiveness, especially when cycling through high-def channels with my time warner box. It gets annoying having to wait up to 8 or 9 seconds to see a picture when surfing channels. To be honest, I don't hear or see a night/day difference between HDMI and component/optical, but the decrease in cable clutter is a plus. Switching between sources is easier with the stock remote, but as stated above, a harmony remote or similar can take care of that. Probably not worth the extra money if I had to do it all again. I'd rather put the money elsewhere.

[BaggedLancer]

I think it's the main reason yes. What you said above is absolutely right - why spend the money just for the convenience of pressing one less button and having one less wire? The real reason is to get things like "TrueHD" sound.

I'm going to venture out on a limb to say 8 out of 10 people do it for convience and not for the TrueHD sound(possibly not even know about TrueHD).

[Early B.]

I made the jump to HDMI switching primarily for convenience purposes, but to be honest, the handshaking issue is definately a drawback. There is a substantial delay in audio and video responsiveness, especially when cycling through high-def channels with my time warner box. It gets annoying having to wait up to 8 or 9 seconds to see a picture when surfing channels. To be honest, I don't hear or see a night/day difference between HDMI and component/optical, but the decrease in cable clutter is a plus. Switching between sources is easier with the stock remote, but as stated above, a harmony remote or similar can take care of that. Probably not worth the extra money if I had to do it all again. I'd rather put the money elsewhere.

Thanks. This is good feedback on HDMI.

After doing research on HDMI, I decided to hold off on buying an AV receiver with HDMI switching and the new audio codecs until all of the bugs are worked out, and until I hear more feedback from actual consumers on differences in sound quality.

[venomclan]

Unless one has many different HDMI video sources to switch, I do not see a reason to go through the receiver at all. Just go directly to the TV.

As for audio, I have not yet heard any real world reviews that say lossless blows away std. Toslink/ coax. If that is the case, who cares about one extra wire. Perhaps the Bose type people, but when we have many different components for the best performance, what is 1 extra wire?

The sad thing is that I do keep hearing buzzes about HDMI 1.4...
Venom

[bdaley6509]

I'm a gamer, so I have about 5 total different sources to switch (Xbox360, PS3, Wii, Cable etc). The fact that my new receiver can upconvert standard and component inputs to HDMI was the primary reason for the purchase.

[shadowofnight]

As of right now ( Of course you know how fast that changes ;) ) unless you are buying/using a receiver/preamp with an HQV Silicon Optix chipset for the HDMI upconverting/video processing you will most likely be disappointed with the upconverting/video quality.

The most common processing in the low to mid and even a lot of higher end receivers is the Faroudja based chipset....even your average circuit city/best buy consumer will notice the black level issues...ghosting problem attributed to those based on these chipsets. Even one of the most popular DVD players OPPO dumped the Faroudja chipset in its newest DVD upconverting player because of these issues its top of the line 981HD ( I actually own a 981HD...awesome player when you disable the Faroudja processing in the menu )
The newer 1080P upconverting 980H dumped it.

Even though I just bought a new preamp ( Onkyo Pro PR-SC885P ) that uses the HQV chipset....I do not use it to switch/process my HDMI video...its only purpose is for HDMI audio...for the newest uncompressed codecs.

I had such awesome performance from Radiients HDMI switcher that I went with their newest HDMI repeater to feed Video sources direct feed HDMI signals ...and their corresponding audio signals to the preamp for sound.
It was the purest fasion to produce both the video and the audio...without being forced to use a go between processor on the video just to get HDMI audio to the preamp. The switcher and the distributer were designed to work together almost expressly for this purpose ( I was givin a demonstration of this at the Radiient factory headquarters even before the repeater was released to market by 2 of their engineers. )

http://www.radiient.com/Radiient-Repeat-6-HDMI-Distributor;jsessionid=ac112b6c1f433da8201b450f46e c8a8ef101ce1eb955.e3eTaxiMa38Te34Pa38Ta38Qbhr0?sc= 2&category=41

[disneyjoe7]

If an AVR is also a HDMI switcher is that modifying the HDMI signal or is it just that a switch?

[shadowofnight]

More likely then not it IS applying its video processing to the signal unless you have the ability in the setup to turn off all processing. Sometimes they upgrade the firmware when enough people complain about certain functions they dont like that are automaticaly ...etc. Other times they hide secret menus....

My bedroom Onkyo 605 has a hidden menu not documented in the owners manual anywhere. You have to press AUX and the POWER button at the same time and I only then get this menu :

Resolution: auto or 720p
VFmt
Sharpness
Saturation
Hue
Contrast
Brightness

Basically now I have control over all of the analog inputs as to how they are going to be output from the HDMI output ( These special controls will effect the component/composite/S-Video...etc but not the 2 HDMI inputs )

I would be stuck with the Faroudja DCDi edge enhancement ...etc for both HDMI inputs if I chose to use them...I dont even do that on this lower end setup...I send the HDMI from my OPPO 981HD ( With the Faroudja processing turned OFF :) ) directly to the bedroom LCD and just use optical outputs from the OPPO to the 605 ( I already mentioned how I do it with the theatre setup and the high end components earlier )

The undocumented controls for the 605 really do give you good adjustments for quality and calibration of the signal I send to the LCD ( The digital inputs on my Westy 37" 1080P LCD are awesome , but its analog inputs suck ) It works out really well.

Just search for your particular AVR's setup features and maybe even firmware updates and undocumented menus :D

[I-SIG]

Call me stupid, but I thought switching was more for those with multiple sources, but only one HMDI input in their TV??? :confused:

Wes

[AndyGwis]

Call me stupid, but I thought switching was more for those with multiple sources, but only one HMDI input in their TV??? :confused:

Wes

You're stupid. HDMI Switching can take any video or audio input from a source and route it to your TV through the one HDMI cable. I think that would help simplify some people's setups quite a bit. Only one cable from AVR to your Tv would be nice.

I like HDMI. I think it's great to have one cable that can replace 6 or more for each component. If I had an HDMI receiver, life would be much easier. I currently have 6 ICs going from my HD-XA1 to my receiver, and have to run it in direct multi-channel analog to get the new HD audio formats. While that's not a pain, my bass management between the two is jacked, so I get zero LFE when I watch / listen through multi-channel. In a year or so, I'll probably jump on an HDMI 1.3+ pre/avr and things will be sweet.

[Silverti]

I can only explain it by example.

I have one cable running through my wall 50' to my projector. Its hdmi to run 1080p. It comes down and plugs into my Onkyo 805.

Now, I plug several devices into the Onkyo via HDMI

PS3 (BR and games)
Toshiba A30 (HD-DVD)
HTPC
Comcast HD Cable

Soon I will be adding a 40+ inch LCD behind my screen for those times that I don’t want to run the bulb down on the projector.

I don’t have any of the broadcast issues about hand shaking, lipsync, pausing or poping and such.

I simply just switch inputs on the Onkyo and they are all up and running perfectly no matter what Im doing.

The advantages are the 1080p resolution video and lossless sound formats. Right now 5.1 and with a component change 7.1 down the road (True hd / DTS Mater).

I went into this expecting to have all kinds of problems based on horror stories that I also read but I just don’t have the problems, all works flawlessly. I used to have to fiddle and screw around with things to go in-between their multiple formats (composite, component, S-Video, optical, etc...) and now as taken from Mac commercials "everything just works".


HDMI for me has been a god send.

[Kex]

There is another fairly minor, but sometimes convenient benefit to sending video signals through an AVR or pre-amp rather than directly from the source component to the TV/monitor: it enables the use of screen display of volume levels, surround modes selected etc. That information is usually a lot easier to read that the comparatively small front panel of a receiver or pre-amp on the other side of the room.

[wallstreet]

So what I'm gathering is the whole reason people go for the receiver with HDMI switching is for the audio and not the video? Strange but I guess it makes sense.

I would say the opposite. It's the only way to get 1080p video, 60hz refresh rates, >30bit color (deep color), and of course audio TrueHD. All reports I've seen say a HDMI picture is superior to component video.

[bruss]

Is this avail for the onk 805 also? everything HDMI and Component looks/sounds killer on my rig except the wii. The wii looks like ass... Although i am the only one who notices.. "she" thinks it looks fine.. I am still using the default video dongle.. I havent had time to go gt the 480p one yet..


My bedroom Onkyo 605 has a hidden menu not documented in the owners manual anywhere. You have to press AUX and the POWER button at the same time and I only then get this menu :

Resolution: auto or 720p
VFmt
Sharpness
Saturation
Hue
Contrast
Brightness

Basically now I have control over all of the analog inputs as to how they are going to be output from the HDMI output ( These special controls will effect the component/composite/S-Video...etc but not the 2 HDMI inputs )

I would be stuck with the Faroudja DCDi edge enhancement ...etc for both HDMI inputs if I chose to use them...I dont even do that on this lower end setup...I send the HDMI from my OPPO 981HD ( With the Faroudja processing turned OFF :) ) directly to the bedroom LCD and just use optical outputs from the OPPO to the 605 ( I already mentioned how I do it with the theatre setup and the high end components earlier )

The undocumented controls for the 605 really do give you good adjustments for quality and calibration of the signal I send to the LCD ( The digital inputs on my Westy 37" 1080P LCD are awesome , but its analog inputs suck ) It works out really well.

Just search for your particular AVR's setup features and maybe even firmware updates and undocumented menus :D

[fatchowmein]

HDMI switching receiver is needed especially if you have multiple sources. PS3 won't play SACD unless you connect via HDMI. Toshiba A2 won't upconvert a regular DVD unless you connect via HDMI. Lastly, all the fancy audio codecs require HDMI because of the bandwith.

Yes, it will suck to be locked into HDMI 1.3 when 2.3 comes out one day, etc, etc, etc...

[wout]

Progress is inevitable but I think if you have a setup now that plays everything via 1.3 and 1080p and your system components match and you enjoy the results then it would not matter much that there is a 2.3 version out there until the source material demands a mass upgrade of all components. As long as what you are getting from your system satifies you're all set. I think trhat the setup I will be getting soon is going to be great for at least the next ten years. HD has been talked about for some 10 plus years now and we finally have a reasonable number of HD channels. So I think now is a good time to get set up and maintain it for a long while which is the best bang for your buck.

[shadowofnight]

Is this avail for the onk 805 also? everything HDMI and Component looks/sounds killer on my rig except the wii. The wii looks like ass... Although i am the only one who notices.. "she" thinks it looks fine.. I am still using the default video dongle.. I havent had time to go gt the 480p one yet..


You could tweak your Wii's picture to look much better...On your 805 its almost the same as a 605...for the 805 you push AUX1 and then a split second later the power button....almost simultaneously...and the 805's secret menu will show up on the receivers display ( Cannot use the remote for this...you have to use the front panel )

[shahmichael@com]

I found since switching from older Pioneer to Elite-vsx74txv with hdmi switching I have less cable clutter,better sound with hd content material.On my bedroom set up I put the old Pioneer without hdmi and there are cables everywhere,it is easy using my Direct hd and T-A20 with my Harmony remote,one click and every change is seamless and easy,in my bedroom allot slower and audio and video doesn't seem as clear,I do you optic cables in bedroom.I would much rather use hdmi hookups then component.

[mmadden28]

I know this thread is kinda old, but still relevant....
I recently upgraded to an Onkyo SR805, and using the HDMI switching capabilities to send everything via one HDMI cable to the TV. I like that. I actually ran all the optical and dig coax cables before i realized I didn't need them anymore

The only think I can't stand about HDMI is the cables suck. The jacks just seem brittle (already broke on on a set top box) and they don't stay in the jacks well. I find I have to be very careful when I slide th TV back into the entertainment center, to avoid having the cable fall out or worse break the jack. It would be nice if they were designed with a more securely fitting connection. Like a locking connection or something.

I can't comment on the sound quality as I haven't done any comparisons-just too many changes in my setup right now. I do find the audio delay annoying when changing channels/sources, but I don't do that often, so its not too big a deal. I may reconnect my optical cable until I can take advantage of the HD audio formats or the more advanced video technologies like BlueRay might offer.

I didn't see it mentioned in this thread, but another feature of newer HDMI specs is the ability for components to 'talk' to each other. Such as when you turn on your reciever, the reciever will tell your TV to turn on (or something like that), and set the colors optimally (new in 1.3?). I don't have any devices that can take advantage of that feature but it sounds interesting.

Of course my DVD is SACD/DVD-Audio capable, and apparently those audio formats will not work via HDMI (apparently related to the DAC comments earlier in the thread) so I will also have it connected with the anolog outs anyway-maybe I can just use that? I think the Onkyo allows me to choose the audio source on the fly-so I think i'll be able to switch between the three audio connections. Its odd to me that SACD and DVD-Audio won't work over hdmi, but the newer audio formats will.

[uvaskeme]

i think you can play sacd's on the oppo 980 and 983 using an hdmi cable. it's pretty convenient to have just one cable for sacd playback.

[LuSh]

Just to add a few things --

SPDIF is not capable of carrying lossless audio as the file format is too large; it will however pick up the second steam usually referred to as "core" which is limited to 1.5Mbps with DTS and .6Mbps with Dolby Digital. By contrast DTS HD Master Audio can deliver variable bit rates of up to 24.5Mbps and TrueHD caps off at 18Mbps. Listening to DTS HD Master Audio I can tell you first hand there's something to lossless compression. Listening to a movie such as Mr. & Mrs Smith (Chapter 26) is a jaw dropping experience. This soundtrack is an absolute reference but I've come to understand that it isn't even close to the limits of DTS lossless as the bit-rate is only about 5Mbps; as the formats mature bit rates will continue to increase allowing more and more fidelity to filter in.

Another amazing comparison is 3:10 to Yuma, listening to its Dolby Digital track is like listening to an MP3 player when comparing it too the Blu Ray's PCM soundtrack. The second last chapter has a scene with a train stopping, the train's bell seems to be elevated another 2 ft from the soundstage and is very pronounced it's kinda crazy. You have to hear it to believe it.

[hockeyboy]

I can relate my personal experience. I originally had my projector hooked up with the component connection to avoid a long HDMI run along with component audio. I was a bit unhappy with the green production and suspected the green component input was bad. Instead of messing with it I decided to use HDMI. Presto, the green was perfect. What surprised me is that the audio sounded light years better. I mean, the green was a pretty minor problem and I was happy with the audio before. But now, my HT audio was much, much better.

[cyberhazard]

HDMI trumps everything, if you got the gear to take advantage of all HDMI has to offer.

[mantis]

I know this thread is kinda old, but still relevant....
I recently upgraded to an Onkyo SR805, and using the HDMI switching capabilities to send everything via one HDMI cable to the TV. I like that. I actually ran all the optical and dig coax cables before i realized I didn't need them anymore

The only think I can't stand about HDMI is the cables suck. The jacks just seem brittle (already broke on on a set top box) and they don't stay in the jacks well. I find I have to be very careful when I slide th TV back into the entertainment center, to avoid having the cable fall out or worse break the jack. It would be nice if they were designed with a more securely fitting connection. Like a locking connection or something.

I can't comment on the sound quality as I haven't done any comparisons-just too many changes in my setup right now. I do find the audio delay annoying when changing channels/sources, but I don't do that often, so its not too big a deal. I may reconnect my optical cable until I can take advantage of the HD audio formats or the more advanced video technologies like BlueRay might offer.

I didn't see it mentioned in this thread, but another feature of newer HDMI specs is the ability for components to 'talk' to each other. Such as when you turn on your reciever, the reciever will tell your TV to turn on (or something like that), and set the colors optimally (new in 1.3?). I don't have any devices that can take advantage of that feature but it sounds interesting.

Of course my DVD is SACD/DVD-Audio capable, and apparently those audio formats will not work via HDMI (apparently related to the DAC comments earlier in the thread) so I will also have it connected with the anolog outs anyway-maybe I can just use that? I think the Onkyo allows me to choose the audio source on the fly-so I think i'll be able to switch between the three audio connections. Its odd to me that SACD and DVD-Audio won't work over hdmi, but the newer audio formats will.

If your receiver is HDMI 1.3a you will be able to hear the new formats. If your player decodes and sends out the processed audio over HDMI via pcm then you will hear it.

If your player and or receiver is 1.3a , it can pass and decode SACD and DVD AUDIO over HDMI allday everyday. This is another benefit of HDMI. It can pass everything. It rules for this.

You cannot get 1080p over component due to players don't pass it and tv monitors don't except it over component. There are very few of each that can pass it over component.

Here's the bottom line on component vs HDMI. Where ever the better processor lives will decide on which cable will perform better at 1080i or lower. HDMI passes 1080p. Component has the bandwidth to pass 1080p but again the gear is what limits this from happening. If your monitor and or player can pass 1080p over component then video quality will only be better if there is interference on the component or the processor in the monitor is better then the one in the player.

Audio wise Dolby HD is superior to DD of any other kind. It's a pure audio format. It's basically like SACD for movies. If you can hear a difference between cd and sacd, then this is the same in DD vs DD HD. It's a increased in audio quality.

As far as HDMI cables , yes they suck the ass. I hate the design. I wish they would have used the DVI design as HDMI. It had computer screws to hold the cable in place. I loved that. HDMI does have a single screw that in some cable designs can be used to anchor the cable. All HDMI inputs have a single screw that you can remove and use as an anchor.

For putting together head ends or systems with HDMI is awesome. One cable per devise and thats it. It makes for a very clean install. I love that. One monitor out. Rules.

If you never heard Dolby HD go then your in for a treat. It's so dynamic and clear. I am basically waiting until April and May to get a New preamp. I have HDMI in HD DVD , Blu Ray , Cable and Video games(ps3 and xbox 360) So getting a HDMI 1.3a with built in processing is very important to me. After hearing it go and seeing 1080p , it is difficult to watch and listen to DVD. Blu Ray rules. HD DVD whats left of it Rules. I can't go back. HD rules.

[mmadden28]

If your receiver is HDMI 1.3a you will be able to hear the new formats. If your player decodes and sends out the processed audio over HDMI via pcm then you will hear it.

If your player and or receiver is 1.3a , it can pass and decode SACD and DVD AUDIO over HDMI allday everyday. This is another benefit of HDMI. It can pass everything. It rules for this.

....

My reciever is the Onkyo SR805 (v1.3 compliant)
I have the Pioneer DV46AV (not sure what hdmi level it is)
The manual states:
" It is not possible to output SACD source from the HDMI connection of this player."
It also states that I also can't use the Digital Coax or Optical for SACD. That I must use the analog multi-channel.

However, there is an option in the HDMI out:

LPCM (5.1 CH)
Set if the monitor or device you have connected using HDMI is
compatible with Liner PCM multi-channel formats. All audio
signals are output as linear PCM 5.1 format. (Use this setting if
you want to decode all streams by a player)


I don't have any SACDs yet (on order) so I haven't been able to test.

So does it appear that I can use the HDMI with the above config change? If so which is the better choice for SACD or DVD-Audio? HDMI or Analog Multi Channel via interconnects?

Thanks