sufficient power for RTI10?

[dudeicus]

Hi all, I am in the process of purchasing a pair of RTi-10s and wanted to know just how much juice it takes to bi-amp them properly.

Without upgrades to my current setup, they would be powered by a Pioneer VSX-815 (not 815k), using the 6th and 7th channels in the bi-amp mode.

[Kex]

...
Without upgrades to my current setup, they would be powered by a Pioneer VSX-815 (not 815k), using the 6th and 7th channels in the bi-amp mode.
Welcome to the Club dudeicus! What you suggest with your 6 & 7 channels is not bi-amping, it's more like bi-wiring. You are not adding separate amplification to your speakers, just an extra connection from the same amplifier. The difference will likely be minimal, if even noticeable, IMHO.

What you really need for those speakers is external amplification, if the Pioneer has pre-out connections for an external amplifier.

[Early B.]

Forget about bi-amping. Just buy a decent 150 - 200 wpc amp.

[MSALLA]

Forget about bi-amping. Just buy a decent 150 - 200 wpc amp.


Second to that. Check the used market like audiogon or e-bay and you can find a great 2-channel amp 150 to 200 watts in the 300 to 400 dollar range.

PS. welcome to the site.

[dudeicus]

What you suggest with your 6 & 7 channels is not bi-amping, it's more like bi-wiring. You are not adding separate amplification to your speakers.

Not a true bi-amp, but more power (200wpc x2 & 100wpc x3 as opposed to 100pwc x7). I haven't really tested it as my current mains (RTi6) are not rated for 200 watts... And yeah, it has the pre-outs for all channels.

It would seem that without a tweeter anywhere in state (LA) the best price available would be from OneCall: http://www.onecall.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=28504

Is there an amp under $500 that anyone would recommend? There are many specialty audio stores in my area that allow in home trial of gear. The amps would be fed by a sony CDP-CX555 and an Entech 205.2 DAC

[cfrizz]

Welcome Dude. What we are trying to tell you is that you aren't even getting the 100wpc x7 with your receiver. so you won't be getting 200wpc by utilizing the other 2 channels.

You have preouts on your receiver, so shop audiogon for a separate amplifier of at least 200wpc.

BTW, it is better to have more power than not enough. All my speakers are being fed by a 405wpc amp & they sound great. So running the 6's with a 200wpc amp will not be a problem.

Brands to check out are Outlaw Audio, Rotel, Parasound, Sunfire, Adcom, Nad.

Start putting more money away since it will probably cost you more than 500 dollars to get it right the first time.

[thejck]

go with a nice used parasound amp.
hca-1500a

[dudeicus]

Start putting more money away since it will probably cost you more than 500 dollars to get it right the first time.

Well if I can't purchase one right away, I might as well save up for a pair of Brystons :D My old man has a pair of 7BST's, they are insanely powerful and neutral.

[MADGSF]

Agree with everything stated above. Did the "bi-amp" with my Elite and RTi-10s and could not tell a difference. Put the B&K in the mix and I COULD tell the difference. High current is waht you want.

[Kex]

... What we are trying to tell you is that you aren't even getting the 100wpc x7 with your receiver. so you won't be getting 200wpc by utilizing the other 2 channels. ...
When a receiver is rated for 7 x 100w, what was really measured was that any one of the seven channels is capable of handling 100w under the test conditions (which have nothing to do with real usage conditions). When testing your receiver's limits, you can turn the sound up until you start to hear distortion, which I can only describe as slightly fuzzy sound, something similar to many telephone loudspeakers when turned up (the sound is louder, but you cannot make out details as clearly as at lower levels). At that point you have exceeded its ability to safely drive your speakers without damage. In most cases, the receiver will drive your speaker adequately somewhere between 75-85dB measured on a SPL meter in my humble estimation. Spikes beyond 85dB may or may not be handled correctly (if not, the first obvious signs of distortion begin).

Your receiver is more likely to kill the tweeters on your RTi6 because it does not have enough power, not because it has too much power. This does not mean this is a bad receiver. Most of them suffer from the same condition. 7 x 100w probably means 7 x 35w in real life usage ... if you're lucky.

Why does the NAD T765, rated at 7 x 100w, cost $2,000 and weigh 38lbs when the Pioneer VSX-815 is also rated at 7 x 100w but costs $299 at full MSRP and weighs 22 lbs? The NAD is rated "all channels driven" and probably outputs more power than other receivers rated above 150w per channel.

You are lucky that the Pioneer is equipped with pre-outs at a true purchase price of probably less than $250 so you can use all it's processing capabilities but add at least one external amplifier for the front two channels. The Pioneer will then only have to drive the remaining three channels and better distribute its true power capabilities between them.

[dudeicus]

less than $250

It was a hold-me-over until I could upgrade, got it for under $80 shipped from the pioneer ebay outlet:p

[MSALLA]

Most mid-fi receivers like denon, yammi, etc are rated with only 2 channels driven. So if it is 150wpc. 7 channel amp section it's really only 150 with the front two channels driven alone.
You can find Adcom GFA 555's on the used market in like new shape for under $400.00
They are 200wpc x 2 and I don't think you will find anyone on here with a bad opinion about them.

[Kex]

It was a hold-me-over until I could upgrade, got it for under $80 shipped from the pioneer ebay outlet:p
That sounds like a very lucky find, thanks to those pre-outs! Great deal, now to find an amp to go with it! Check out craigslist.com if you live near an active metropolitan area, or hunt down another e-Bay bargain in two or five channels (the latter may not be 200w per channel, but it'll still be a huge improvement). One of the good things about buying used power amplifiers is that there is not a lot to go wrong. They work or they don't but there's not much in between (no moving parts, fiddly knobs or delicate electronics etc.).

[dudeicus]

https://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pio/pe/images/portal/cit_11221/218219098VSX815OperatingInstructions.pdf

Page 73 of manual states continuous power output in stereo and with all channels driven.
The VSX-915 drops from 120w to 110w changing from 2 channel to 7.1, but the 815 stays at 100w regardless of stereo/surround selected.

Anywho, my local dealers stock amps from:
Bryston, Krell, Classe, Adcom, Mcintosh, Integra, and Parasound.

[Kex]

https://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pio/pe/images/portal/cit_11221/218219098VSX815OperatingInstructions.pdf

Page 73 of manual states continuous power output in stereo and with all channels driven. ...
No, it doesn't.

"1 Continuous average power output of 100 watts (VSX-815) / 120 watts (VSX-915)* per channel, min., at 8ohms, from 20 Hz to 20,000 Hz with no more than 0.2%** total harmonic distortion (front).
* Measured pursuant to the Federal Trade Commission’s Trade Regulation rule on Power Output Claims for Amplifiers.
** Measured by Audio Spectrum Analyzer."

This is exactly what everyone has been trying to demonstrate. They are most likely measuring two channels driven (or even one), not "all channels driven". The FTC has NO rules AFIK on "Power Output Claims for Amplifiers" other than stereo. This is marketing garbage ready for the shredder.

Otherwise, all those brands you mention from your dealers are excellent.

[dudeicus]

The FTC has NO rules AFIK on "Power Output Claims for Amplifiers" other than stereo.
I was unaware of that, sneaky little tards' they are...

I'm leaning towards Bryston and possibly McIntosh, since those are the two I've had a the most amount of listening time with (unless someone wants to donate a krell, hint-hint). The dealer that stocks Bryston doubles the factory warranty for free:eek:

[dudeicus]

spiffy
http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2000/12/amprule.shtm

[cfrizz]

That was 7 years ago. So what happened? Certainly nothing has changed!

[dudeicus]

"Issues Supplemental Request For Comment on Proposed Revisions to Testing Procedures for "Home Theater" Receivers"

Obviously, proposal = fail. I suspect treachery was afoot, shurely this is the work of Bose!