Ye Ol' Solid State vs. Tube Debate

[Early B.]

Just thought I'd post something I ran across on the 'net one day to advance our knowledge base of all things audio...

[BrettT1]

I found this to be an interesting read.

Brett

[Ricardo]

I found this to be an interesting read.

Brett


If you are talking about the 10 biggest lies in audio....IMO this is just the writer's opinion (on all subjects) biased to one of the two sides that we always see on these subjective audio world. I stopped reading when he said that there's no burn-in on electronics. That is BS.

[BrettT1]

[QUOTE=Ricardo;781799]IMO this is just the writer's opinion (on all subjects) biased to one of the two sides that we always see on these subjective audio world.QUOTE]

Just trying to add to the debate thread.;)

[rskarvan]

Ricardo,

I'm in the camp that believes that electronics may not have any burn-in time.
The truth is that I have no idea. But, I do have a theory why electronics burn-in may be a myth.

Have you ever had an ear infection? You know... the type where you can't hear SH#$ for days because of all the sinus/related-blockage problems. Then, finally, your ear clears/pops and all of a sudden you hear better than you have your entire life. Do you remember the first time you put on a pair of eye-glasses to fix being near-sighted? All of a sudden, you experience this "RUSH" of all that you were missing when your senses were impaired.

The problem is this "RUSH" doesn't really last. After a few hours/days... your brain adjusts to its "senses/inputs" and the thrill of the newly-added detail is forgotten/filtered and lost. The fact of the matter is that your brain is forgetful (by design). We are designed as predators. Our eyes face forwards. Predator's brains are attuned to looking for immediate differences. Once we get accustomed to the "way it is" we accept that as normal and our attention will be redirected.

I never thought of the Monitor 10's as a muddy/boomy speaker until I heard Thiels. Now, my brain is accustomed to the Thiel sound and the Monitor 10's sound considerably worse. But, if I were to only listen to the Monitor 10's for a few weeks... my ears would, predictably, adapt and pretty soon, I'd be smiling ear-to-ear once again listening to the M10's.

Are Thiel's shrill? Perhaps. Maybe some people describe the detailed sound of a cymbal or top-hat ringing as shrill. I listen to live music quite a bit (playing Trumpet) and I can say that the Thiels don't quite capture the sound of a ringing cymbal perfectly. But, they capture the sound of a flute much more accurately than any speaker I have ever heard.

When I listen to the Monitor 10's, the first thoughts that invade my mind are:
1. Pretty good tweeter. Though, not quite as detailed as the Thiels.
By the way, the SL2000 and SL2500 suck when compared to the SL3000.
2. Muddy mid-range sound. (Sounds like someone tossed a blanket over the mid-range).
3. Loose bass.

As far as imaging goes, I really liked the SDA effect for quite a few years. But, the Thiels image so well that the SDA effect is unnecessary (redundant). The Thiel speakers disappear more effortlessly than any speaker that I have heard.

As much as I enjoy listening to the Thiels, I really prefer the open/airy sound of an electrostatic speaker. But, I also enjoy the punch of a dynamic driver. Both systems are very good. It quickly becomes an apples vs. oranges comparison.

In any event, I am very sure that my brain is much more forgetful (percpetion memory) than any subtle differences that may (or, may not occur) in the first few weeks of listening to new electronic equipment.

Here is another (more drastic) example regarding perception:
If you are stranded alone on a deserted island with an ugly 25 year old, after a few years, she will begin to look pretty darn good. Thank goodness women have the same issues regarding perception!

- Ron

[haimoc]

Ricardo,

I'm in the camp that believes that electronics may not have any burn-in time.
The truth is that I have no idea. But, I do have a theory why electronics burn-in may be a myth.

Have you ever had an ear infection? You know... the type where you can't hear SH#$ for days because of all the sinus/related-blockage problems. Then, finally, your ear clears/pops and all of a sudden you hear better than you have your entire life. Do you remember the first time you put on a pair of eye-glasses to fix being near-sighted? All of a sudden, you experience this "RUSH" of all that you were missing when your senses were impaired.

The problem is this "RUSH" doesn't really last. After a few hours/days... your brain adjusts to its "senses/inputs" and the thrill of the newly-added detail is forgotten/filtered and lost. The fact of the matter is that your brain is forgetful (by design). We are designed as predators. Our eyes face forwards. Predator's brains are attuned to looking for immediate differences. Once we get accustomed to the "way it is" we accept that as normal and our attention will be redirected.

I never thought of the Monitor 10's as a muddy/boomy speaker until I heard Thiels. Now, my brain is accustomed to the Thiel sound and the Monitor 10's sound considerably worse. But, if I were to only listen to the Monitor 10's for a few weeks... my ears would, predictably, adapt and pretty soon, I'd be smiling ear-to-ear once again listening to the M10's.

Are Thiel's shrill? Perhaps. Maybe some people describe the detailed sound of a cymbal or top-hat ringing as shrill. I listen to live music quite a bit (playing Trumpet) and I can say that the Thiels don't quite capture the sound of a ringing cymbal perfectly. But, they capture the sound of a flute much more accurately than any speaker I have ever heard.

When I listen to the Monitor 10's, the first thoughts that invade my mind are:
1. Pretty good tweeter. Though, not quite as detailed as the Thiels.
By the way, the SL2000 and SL2500 suck when compared to the SL3000.
2. Muddy mid-range sound. (Sounds like someone tossed a blanket over the mid-range).
3. Loose bass.

As far as imaging goes, I really liked the SDA effect for quite a few years. But, the Thiels image so well that the SDA effect is unnecessary (redundant). The Thiel speakers disappear more effortlessly than any speaker that I have heard.

As much as I enjoy listening to the Thiels, I really prefer the open/airy sound of an electrostatic speaker. But, I also enjoy the punch of a dynamic driver. Both systems are very good. It quickly becomes an apples vs. oranges comparison.

In any event, I am very sure that my brain is much more forgetful (percpetion memory) than any subtle differences that may (or, may not occur) in the first few weeks of listening to new electronic equipment.

Here is another (more drastic) example regarding perception:
If you are stranded alone on a deserted island with an ugly 25 year old, after a few years, she will begin to look pretty darn good. Thank goodness women have the same issues regarding perception!

- Ron

Very nice to know how brain cope with differences... Thanks.

[Ricardo]

The truth is that I have no idea.

I do; there is changes in sound with new electronics. I don't have golden ears and I've experienced these changes.

[hearingimpared]

I've experienced over and over again the burnin/breakin phenomena. It is NOT what I THINK occured but what actually occured. Symptoms of break in are as follows; intermitent harshness, intermitent thin or non-extended bass, intermitent collapse of soundstage & or depth, intermitent muddled mid-range etc. . . . and there are more. This happens everytime I get a new pieced of gear or upgrade caps during the first, depending on the gear, 30 to 400 hours.

I wish it weren't true but it is.

Now back to tubes and transistors. I don't care what science or technical mumbo jumbo is written about either, I find tubes in the front end and preamp stages matched with a sand amplifier to be very pleasing to my ear. What does that mean? It means an excellent tonal match i.e. saxes sound like saxes, drums sound like drums, double bass sounds like double bass, piano sounds like a piano the list goes on ad nauseaum.

BTW I never heard Robert Plant sound so natural as when I played the Classic Records 200 gm pressing of any of the LZ studio recordings. The recordings themselves had a lot to do with that but the fact that I played it through the hybrid of tubes and sand made the biggest difference.

Now I admit that I've only heard Robert Plant sing live 5 times and all five were amplified and not in the best acoustic venue but when I hear the LPs I get chills and goosebumps. I wasn't getting that before introducing tubes into my rig.

[mulveling]

I think debates on the superficial differences between tubes vs. sand trivializes all the difficult design decisions & trade-offs that a good amp designer should be adept at making. These often have much more impact on the sound. I've heard tube amps that are bright (despite expensive tubes) and a SS amp or 2 that are dark & muddy - both probably resulting from bad design choices and/or lack of technical knowledge - sure these examples are on the fringes, but they exist, and probably more will now that we have the Chinese re-enacting a Wild West in the hifi world.

That said, I have an inexplicable fondness for the aesthetics and history of tubes, and the sonics of good tube gear. The explanation I've heard is that tubes have a harmonic distortion profile that is more aesthetically pleasing, visually and supposedly sonically too (decreasing higher-order distortion products being the key to produce a non-jagged distorted sin curve despite relatively high amounts of THD - you can see non-aesthetic distortion pretty easily even with lower THD), but what I'm not clear on is whether this is more an attribute of tubes vs. SS or the circuits they're used in, and how just much influence the amp designer's decisions have on the distortion profile despite the device used.

Comparing the raw attributes of tubes and transistors is also a shaky proposition because the contexts in which these devices are typically used - outside of audio - are so bloody different. That's great that you can fit millions of transistors on a chip that puts out a few watts heat, but that's not really a design need for hifi amps. Clearly, the context is going to influence the design decisions and device choice. It seems that either tubes or transistors can be reasonable choices in the context of hifi audio.

[venomclan]

What about Tube/SS hybrids?
Venom

[mulveling]

Here's a great illustration of why the profile of harmonic distortion can matter more than the total harmonic distortion (THD) number:

http://members.aol.com/sbench102/thd.html

[rskarvan]

I do; there is changes in sound with new electronics. I don't have golden ears and I've experienced these changes.

The question is: are these changes real (measureable) vs. are these perceived changes (subject to human interpretation)?

The only changes I have heard is that drivers tend to need a few moments (not hours) to break-in mechanically. I have never heard a SS amp stabilize or any piece of electronic equipment break-in.

I have had my hearing professionally checked (objectively) in an acoustic chamber and I am in the top 10% of the range. So, I'd classify my ears as "silver". Had I been in the top (measureable) 2%, I'd be golden. :)

When I hear a group of people saying.... "I've experienced THIS... when... THIS occurs... (in a cause/effect manner)"... I can't help but think of the alleged Witches burning at the stake in Salem, MA.

- Ron

[treitz3]

***yawn***

[Ricardo]

The question is: are these changes real (measureable) vs. are these perceived changes (subject to human interpretation)?



Is this a real question? Everything in this hobby is about perception. Have you measured how the Thiels sound better than the 3.1 TL's, or is it just your perception?

[rskarvan]

Both Thiel and Polk use very sophisticated measurement devices to test their speakers. I believe that Thiel adjusts their custom-engineered drivers and very sophisticated cross-overs to more exacting test parameters than Polk does with their relatively simple cross-over and much more conventional drivers. Different markets.

However, that isn't the issue. Has anyone in the industry done any test measurements to define a break-in period for electronic components (scientifically)? And, have these measurements been confirmed with ABX (blind) testing methodologies?

Seems to me that if it were real, there would be some published DATA somewhere. Not recommendations. But, hard facts. Repeatable data.

I do understand that Tubes may have some break-in characteristics due to their very finite life-cycle. But, solid state electronics is something different entirely.

[Ricardo]

Ron, I asked a simple question. I'm done here. Good luck.

[mhardy6647]

I've been listening to Class A solid state (Yamaha CA-800 in Class A mode, pretty low-end, actually) quite a bit lately -- and enjoying it. Very clean, luscious midrange (e.g., vocals).

[rskarvan]

I'd like to try a Class A amp someday. I hear they are as hot as toasters!

[mhardy6647]

Depends on the output power. They dissipate pretty much full power all the time. The CA-800 (from the mid-1970s) is rated at 15 wpc in Class A. Heatsinks were warm, but not hot, last night after about an hour of spirited listening (on ads L-710s, in this case).

[Joe08867]

I'd like to try a Class A amp someday. I hear they are as hot as toasters!

So you are commenting on something you have no direst knowledge about.

Wow if I don't know something about a subject I leave it alone.

By the way I know you love your Thiels but how many posts are you going to talk about them in. They don't have anything to do with this discussion.

As far as SS vs Tube, I would have to give percieved warmth to tubes. I would give instant dynamics to Solid State.

As far as sound overall I have never personally compared SS vs Tube from the same manufacturer except for in Musical instruments. If I use that as a reference I would say Tube over SS.

[rskarvan]

Jump-on-the-bandwagon-Joe,

Jeesh. I'm commenting based upon the engineering knowledge that Class-A amps run at full power output at all times (even with no input signal). I'm a little reluctant to put a 1000 Watt toaster in my living room for both heat and economy reasons.

I love tubes in guitar amps (Fender Hot Rod). They certainly are warm sounding - and, can be VERY POWERFUL. I think the primary reason to go with SS vs. tubes is for reliability and ease-of-use. I also think that SS is capable of more intricate details (transients) than tubes. But, tubes are certainly worthy for many reasons.

[Joe08867]

Jump-on-the-bandwagon-Joe,

Jeesh. I'm commenting based upon the engineering knowledge that Class-A amps run at full power output at all times (even with no input signal). I'm a little reluctant to put a 1000 Watt toaster in my living room for both heat and economy reasons.

I love tubes in guitar amps (Fender Hot Rod). They certainly are warm sounding - and, can be VERY POWERFUL. I think the primary reason to go with SS vs. tubes is for reliability and ease-of-use. I also think that SS is capable of more intricate details (transients) than tubes. But, tubes are certainly worthy for many reasons.

Sorry I don't mean to jump on the bandwagon. I actually agree with most of what you said except break-in. But you have you opinion and I have mine.

As far as reliability goes they are both good but here again I agreewith you SS is much easier. I also used Dynamics instead of transients so we agree on that too.

One thing I have noticed though with tubes is there ability to reproduce spoken word with such realism (HT).

One thing can be said is bang for the buck SS over Tube.

[Joe08867]

I also forgot, Tubes do run at 100% all the time but that actually makes them better for moderate listening. That is why a 15w Tube amp sounds so much bigger then an equally rated SS. Tubes have there power available all the time where SS needs to create it instantly.

Now when the volume gets past 2-3 oçlock the story changes. This is where I think SS has it over Tubes. All things being equal.

[mhardy6647]

I also forgot, Tubes do run at 100% all the time but that actually makes them better for moderate listening.
Nope, they don't, unless they are run in Class A. They're warm, of course, because the filaments are heated, but most of the real heat from output tubes comes from the plate dissipation. A Class AB tube amp is more efficient than a Class A tube amp, same as for solid state.

Class A vs. Class B makes more difference than tube vs. transistor. Single-ended vs. push-pull makes more difference than tube vs. transistor, too.

http://sound.westhost.com/class-a.htm

Most of the sense of "more powerful tube watts", IMO, comes from the typically far more graceful transition of tube amps into clipping (nonlinearity) compared to solid state amps. Tube amps tend to compress as they run out of steam; a much more euphonious sound than the harsh clipping of a solid state amp hitting its DC rails voltages like a brick wall.

[madmax]

Just thought I'd post something I ran across on the 'net one day to advance our knowledge base of all things audio...

I noticed for tubes all the pros were sound quality related and all cons were convienence related. Compare this to SS where all pros were convience related and all cons were sound quality related. I must say I agree with the overall document.
madmax

[jakelm]

I noticed for tubes all the pros were sound quality related and all cons were convienence related. Compare this to SS where all pros were convience related and all cons were sound quality related. I must say I agree with the overall document.
madmax

You make SS sound like Bose:eek:

[hearingimpared]

The question is: are these changes real (measureable) vs. are these perceived changes (subject to human interpretation)?

The only changes I have heard is that drivers tend to need a few moments (not hours) to break-in mechanically. I have never heard a SS amp stabilize or any piece of electronic equipment break-in.




So let me get this straight all the years of experience I've had with piano, double bass, saxophone, drums etc on the way they sound is my interpretation of how closely my rig gets to that sound and you are going to discount that because it is not "real (measurable)?

How in the hell would these "real (measureable)" be better than my experience?

I gave detailed examples of what gear, components and cables sounds like when they are breaking in. If you can't hear that with your silver ears I suggest you go back to your Otolaryngologist and ask for your money back.

Oh BTW because a newer guy disagrees with you, you accuse him of jumping on the bandwagon.

There would be no bandwagon if you didn't behave like a person with "borderline personality disorder."

[hearingimpared]

Sorry I don't mean to jump on the bandwagon. I actually agree with most of what you said except break-in. But you have you opinion and I have mine.




You don't need to apologize, he does.

[jakelm]

Is this a cable debate thread?



LOL... We could start a thread about how the Mona Lisa was painted and we will still end up debating cables...lol

[madmax]

You make SS sound like Bose:eek:

Just an observation from reading the posted item. I'm not making anything sound like anything. :)
madmax

[jakelm]

I'm not making anything sound like anything. :)
madmax

Lol...good pun...:p

[zingo]

Thanks for the reads. Very educational and fun.

[ShinAce]

Some technologies just can't get a break.

Earlier someone said that class A runs at almost full power. Actually, it always runs at full power, this type of biasing is what makes it class A.

Another point with integration. For the input stage, the current source and basic design will affect the response the most. By integrating a good differential input stage with a good current mirror, you can have an almost universal input stage to use elsewhere, for pennies. This is a HUGE factor for big companies.

[rskarvan]

No problem Joe, life is good.

[Early B.]

Geez -- what the hell are you guys arguing about?

In reality, you shouldn't be able to distinguish a great tube amp from a great SS amp because neither one should have a "sonic signature." My last SS amp sounded more "tube-like" (i.e., lush midrange, etc.) than the tube amp it replaced. So to speak of a "tube sound" or a "SS sound" is virtually meaningless.

[hearingimpared]

Geez -- what the hell are you guys arguing about?

In reality, you shouldn't be able to distinguish a great tube amp from a great SS amp because neither one should have a "sonic signature." My last SS amp sounded more "tube-like" (i.e., lush midrange, etc.) than the tube amp it replaced. So to speak of a "tube sound" or a "SS sound" is virtually meaningless.

I'm not too sure about that EB. Has there ever been an amp so sonically neutral that all you hear is the music and just any coloration coming off the pre?

I think the Tri Vista with its hybrid set-up, tubed pre, sand amp produces what I have found to be tonally accurate now of course this is all dependent on how true the source material and the source itself is to sonics of the instruments.

[heiney9]

***yawn***

I'll raise you one ***yawn***

[mhardy6647]

reading about audio is sort of like reading about sex...

[heiney9]

Both Thiel and Polk use very sophisticated measurement devices to test their speakers. I believe that Thiel adjusts their custom-engineered drivers and very sophisticated cross-overs to more exacting test parameters than Polk does with their relatively simple cross-over and much more conventional drivers. Different markets.

However, that isn't the issue. Has anyone in the industry done any test measurements to define a break-in period for electronic components (scientifically)? And, have these measurements been confirmed with ABX (blind) testing methodologies?

Seems to me that if it were real, there would be some published DATA somewhere. Not recommendations. But, hard facts. Repeatable data.

I do understand that Tubes may have some break-in characteristics due to their very finite life-cycle. But, solid state electronics is something different entirely.

You obviously have no clue what you are talking about. Read one of Nelson Pass's owners manuals and you will see that capacitors and transistors do have a finite life cycle and change over time.

You expound on this stuff when it's simply your opinion and it's not even a well researched opinion and has no basis in fact.

[Ricardo]

Has there ever been an amp so sonically neutral that all you hear is the music and just any coloration coming off the pre?



Yes. Belles 350A Reference.

[rskarvan]

You obviously have no clue what you are talking about. Read one of Nelson Pass's owners manuals and you will see that capacitors and transistors do have a finite life cycle and change over time.

You expound on this stuff when it's simply your opinion and it's not even a well researched opinion and has no basis in fact.

I'm glad that your ears are attuned to the very subtle changes that occur in electronics over VERY LONG TIMES (10+ years) in the first few hours of alleged "break-in". I may have silver ears... but, you must have PLATINUM EARS with a PLUTONIUM EAR DRUM.

Either that, or you are just full of it. I'm guessing...your ears just aren't that precious.

[heiney9]

I'm not too sure about that EB. Has there ever been an amp so sonically neutral that all you hear is the music and just any coloration coming off the pre?



This IS one of Nelson Pass's design philosophies and all of his designs try to limit coloration. The Aleph series has just 3 gain stages (a NP trademark) for the sole reason of having the fewest components in the signal path. Simplified of course, but you get the idea. There are many higher end designers and designs that have the same goal.

This isn't always a good thing. Really depends on the rest of your system and I hate to say it, but what type of music you listen to, as well as the speakers you plan to use. Neutral amps (components) aren't everyones bag even though we all say it is.

Listen to a passive pre-amp in ones system compared to an active pre-amp in the same system. For me personally it's a love/hate thing and not all passives sound good in all systems. I thing we would all agree having a passive pre is a cleaner, simpler, more neutral component.

H9

[rskarvan]

I thing we would all agree having a passive pre is a cleaner, simpler, more neutral component.

H9


Sure...until, you want to TURN UP THE VOLUME. Then, a passive preamp stinks.

[heiney9]

Sure...until, you want to TURN UP THE VOLUME. Then, a passive preamp stinks.

Then it's not matched to the amp properly, really that's what it comes down to. I know that as the vol increases on a passive pre bad things happen compared to an active pre.

I have an integrated amp and the there is no active pre-amp stage it's a passive controller with a high gain amplifier and it works just fine. But I have heard passive pre-amps that have the issue you describe.

[Early B.]

I'm not too sure about that EB. Has there ever been an amp so sonically neutral that all you hear is the music and just any coloration coming off the pre?

Of course not, but that's my point. It doesn't matter whether an amp is tubed or SS, the design goal is the same -- to amplify the signal without screwing it up.

Solid state still has the stigma of being bright, and analytical, with a tendency to distort at higher volumes. I'm guessing today's SS amps generally sound better than they did 20 years ago. As a result of this stigma, the terms, "tube sound" and "solid state sound" drew a distinction between the two types of amps. Today, I think this distinction has been greatly diminished and such terms are relics of the past.

[hearingimpared]

This IS one of Nelson Pass's design philosophies and all of his designs try to limit coloration. The Aleph series has just 3 gain stages (a NP trademark) for the sole reason of having the fewest components in the signal path. Simplified of course, but you get the idea. There are many higher end designers and designs that have the same goal.

This isn't always a good thing. Really depends on the rest of your system and I hate to say it, but what type of music you listen to, as well as the speakers you plan to use. Neutral amps (components) aren't everyones bag even though we all say it is.

Listen to a passive pre-amp in ones system compared to an active pre-amp in the same system. For me personally it's a love/hate thing and not all passives sound good in all systems. I thing we would all agree having a passive pre is a cleaner, simpler, more neutral component.

H9

Ric and Brock, I guess I never really heard a truly neutral amp. The thing is that I've found something that produces the tonal character that I'm used to hearing with certain instruments.

It seems the combo of tubed pre and sand amp gives me that tone. I've heard on several different systems and I get that chill.

I dont' think I would like an amp that is neutral, Blasphamy!

[heiney9]

Ric and Brock, I guess I never really heard a truly neutral amp. The thing is that I've found something that produces the tonal character that I'm used to hearing with certain instruments.

It seems the combo of tubed pre and sand amp gives me that tone. I've heard on several different systems and I get that chill.

I dont' think I would like an amp that is neutral, Blasphamy!

No problem there as I think each one of us would define neutrality in a different way. Always go with what you and your ears prefer. Adjectives just offer loose guidelines and there is no substitute for hearing gear in your own familiar environment. What works for me may not nec work for you and visa versa. That's why I love our local get togethers. Bouncing ideas around listening to new and familiar music and different gear. Can't wait for PF '08 ;)

H9

[hearingimpared]

How's this for an adjective; My analog rig sounds absolutely friggin AWESOME tonight.

[madmax]

How's this for an adjective; My analog rig sounds absolutely friggin AWESOME tonight.

There is some kinda rig that isn't analog? ;)

[reeltrouble1]

will it ever be possible to have a rig without speakers??

RT1

[steveinaz]

That Audio critic "10 lies" article is about the biggest collection bullshit I think I've ever read. He must be an "electrical engineer."

[madmax]

That Audio critic "10 lies" article is about the biggest collection bullshit I think I've ever read. He must be an "electrical engineer."

I totally agree. The "10 Lies" is really the #1 lie. I used to follow that magazine before I had any money for audio. "50 cents worth of wire is the same as a $1000 set of speaker cables and here is the proof with graphs of the measurements" and "this pro amp delivers everything the Boulder whatever amp does for pennies on the dollar" etc. One by one I dispelled the hype. Even as a newbie audio person it was quite obvious after a few experiences that the magazine was total BS.

madmax

[hearingimpared]

That Audio critic "10 lies" article is about the biggest collection bullshit I think I've ever read. He must be an "electrical engineer."

I've read that too, what a crock of poop!

[BrettT1]

For me, personally, the 10 lies article might as well be completely true. I can't afford $1000 speaker wire or $50000 amplifiers.:(

[madmax]

For me, personally, the 10 lies article might as well be completely true. I can't afford $1000 speaker wire or $50000 amplifiers.:(

Just buy the speaker wire one inch at a time. :D
madmax

[BrettT1]

That's a great idea Max!:eek: Why didn't I think of that?:confused: lol

[madmax]

I still remember "you can make any wire sound like any other wire by adding a capacitance, resistance and inductance to it". Hmmm... so lets say you want to eliminate some capacitance, resistance and inductance which is normally what makes for a really good expensive run of cable. What a dumbshit.
madmax