Difference between 100 and 200 wpc in amp?

[iskandam]

Ok so I'm ready to make my first move into separate by getting a multichannel amp. I've been reading that the more power you feed into the speakers the better sound quality you'll get out of them. I like to listen loud but nowhere near reference level. Now my question is will I hear a significant difference between 100 wpc vs 200 wpc in an amp? I'm using RTi8s, CSi5 and FXi3s btw.

I'm asking because the price difference between a 5-channel 100 wpc amp vs 200 wpc is staggering. I'm currently using HK AVR 247 receiver that does 50 wpc. It gets as loud as I want it to go. I guess another way of asking this is would I hear a big enough leap in sound quality by upgrading to a 100 wpc amp or would I need to go further up the food chain with 200 wpc before realizing that improvement?

[Ricardo]

Many will say you need 200 WPC, and I am sure there wil be some improvement in sound quality even if you don't play too loud, but for your RTi's, 100 WPC will be enough to make them sing.

[dephinistr8]

As long as you have speakers with an RMS in the same range as your amp, you should get a nice sound no matter how much power you decide to go with.
The main difference you'll find is that, generally speaking, that more power=cleaner sound @ higher volumes...

[bikezappa]

[QUOTE I've been reading that the more power you feed into the speakers the better sound quality you'll get out of them. [/QUOTE]

I don't believe that.

Check it out again.

[venomclan]

I've been reading that the more power you feed into the speakers the better sound quality you'll get out of them. I like to listen loud but nowhere near reference level. Now my question is will I hear a significant difference between 100 wpc vs 200 wpc in an amp?


This is a common misconception. More does not always mean better. An increase in power can yield great results but it is not an across the board statement. If you are looking at entry level amps, it may be better to spend the extra $ for the the higher power depending on your listening preferences. As you go up the amp ladder, power levels may actually go down but performance will increase.
Venom

[mhardy6647]

the difference between 100 watts and 200 watts is 3 dB, all other things being equal. A 3 dB difference is generally considered to be "barely audible", and "all other things being equal" isn't a given.

[iskandam]

I heard some speaker-amp combo will only yield noticeable result at a certain volume. I want to be able to hear that improvement at all listening levels, not only at very high volumes. My HK goes from -65 to +6.5 IIRC and I listen at -20, if that gives you an idea of my listening level for movies. The mains are 7' away from the seating position and the room is 3000 cubic feet with two large openings to other rooms.

So the bottom line is the performance. I'm just concerned that after spending so much money with the 200 wpc amp I won't be able to hear the difference. I've been considering the Adcom GFA-7400 (5 x 100 wpc) vs the GFA-5503 (3 x 200 wpc for my mains)

[jakelm]

Quality over quantity... Remember that...

[AndyGwis]

Get a nice 5-channel B&K amp, like the 5125, and call it a day. Should be some options on Audiogon. They are 125 wpc amps and would run your RTis wonderfully well with a nice warm of neutral sound to tame any potential RTi brightness.

You could also just consider getting a nice 2 or 3 channel amp to take some pressure off your receiver and give those 2/3 speakers more current and dynamics. Just be sure to calibrate them properly after the amp is installed. I have a 3 channel B&K 1430 on my front soundstage and love it for movies and especially music.

[jakelm]

Get a nice 5-channel B&K amp, like the 5125, and call it a day. Should be some options on Audiogon. They are 125 wpc amps and would run your RTis wonderfully well with a nice warm of neutral sound to tame any potential RTi brightness.

You could also just consider getting a nice 2 or 3 channel amp to take some pressure off your receiver and give those 2/3 speakers more current and dynamics. Just be sure to calibrate them properly after the amp is installed. I have a 3 channel B&K 1430 on my front soundstage and love it for movies and especially music.


Andy, how much are those B&K's running? I will be in the market soon for a 3 channel amp for my front stage. Was looking into Emotiva, because B&K, Rotel and Adcom might be out of my price range.

[AndyGwis]

I have a B&K ST-1430 Series II. I think they go for $400 - $450 for one in excellent condition on the used market. They don't come up too often, though. I have seen some really good 2-channel amps, like their current model 125.2 for $300 - $400 on Agon.

If you get lucky and do some looking, you could probably find the 125.2 or a 1430 for close to $300.

[jakelm]

I have a B&K ST-1430 Series II. I think they go for $400 - $450 for one in excellent condition on the used market. They don't come up too often, though. I have seen some really good 2-channel amps, like their current model 125.2 for $300 - $400 on Agon.

If you get lucky and do some looking, you could probably find the 125.2 or a 1430 for close to $300.

I would be more interested in the 3-5 channel amps. $300 to $400 is in my price range. And I heard very good things about B&K, unfortunatly no where to listen to them.


sorry for the hijack...

[AndyGwis]

sorry for the hijack...

we're still talking about budget multichannel amps in the 100-200 wpc range so I think all is good :)

I'd just click on the multi channel amp link on Agon every day or so to see what's new. If a decent brand amp falls into your limited price range in good shape, take a chance on it (that goes for you, too, iskandam). You can always resell for what you purchased for if you get a good deal. If you get a great deal, you can make money once you sell. That's why I love buying used amps :)

[jakelm]

An amp like this would be perfect for my set up. Would work well with my 7's and HK.


http://cgi.ebay.com/Adcom-GFA-7000-5-Channel-Power-Amplifier_W0QQitemZ200194104991QQihZ010QQcategoryZ 14973QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Or this one.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ROTEL-FIVE-CHANNEL-POWER-AMPLIFIER-RMB-1075_W0QQitemZ130193067742QQihZ003QQcategoryZ14973 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

But I'm sure they will go well above my buget...

[jakelm]

Andy, is something like what you have?

http://cgi.ebay.com/B-K-AV5000-Series-II-Multi-Channel-Amplifier-Home_W0QQitemZ110219257389QQihZ001QQcategoryZ14973 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[MADGSF]

Not speaking for Andy but that amp would do very well with your speakers. Not sure it will stay within your price range or not.

[aaharvel]

+/-3 db.

[jdhdiggs]

I would much rather have a very high quality 50W amp then an ok quality 200W amp for the same money:

Most folks in the "Must have 200W+" crowd don't realize that most of the time you'll be driving a whopping 1W or less with loud peak transients pushing MAYBE 35W. Unless your one of those bonheads who wants to see what 125+dB feels like, you'd be better off getting a better, lower powered amp for the same $$$

[Face]

I agree, quality over quantity. ;)

All other things being equal, the only advantage to a well built 200wpc amp over a 100wpc amp, if it's a class AB style, the 200wpc amp will be in class A longer.

[jdhdiggs]

I agree, quality over quantity. ;)

All other things being equal, the only advantage to a well built 200wpc amp over a 100wpc amp, if it's a class AB style, the 200wpc amp will be in class A longer.

And be hotter, drain more power and be a whopping 3dB louder at stupid full blast volume... :p

[miner]

Truly, the major difference is 100 watts.

[Sami]

Andy, is something like what you have?

http://cgi.ebay.com/B-K-AV5000-Series-II-Multi-Channel-Amplifier-Home_W0QQitemZ110219257389QQihZ001QQcategoryZ14973 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Jake, that's the same amp model I'm running my LSi HT with. It powers my LSi15's bi-amped and the extra channel is for the LSi7 centre. I'm sure it would power the 15's with just one channel per speaker but I have a very capable amp section in my receiver (capable to drive the LSi) so I'm letting it handle the surrounds.

Very nice sounding amp, and can be had for a great price. I'd bid on it.

What there is to be said about 100WPC vs 200WPC has been said already (quality over power).

[jakelm]

The Adcom, the Rotel and the B&K are all going for around the same price. So confusing.

I want a warm sounding amp, similar to the sound of my HK, warm and rich. Not a bright amp.

I'm sure all of the above amps are excellent, its just hard, without hearing them, which are best match for my 7's and HT.

I'm keeping a close eye on the B&K. The seller for the Adcom does not have any other sold items, so there is no feed back on him. The Rotel amps, I have read, are brighter sounding amps than the other 2. It looks like the B&K is my best bang for the buck, if it stays in my price range.

[Sami]

Warm sound, out of those definitely the B&K. Rotel's that I have heard are more on the bright side, while the Adcom's I find to be in between. LSi7's? Adcom or B&K are better matches than Rotel in my limited experience, and I would personally go with B&K if I couldn't do A/B comparison.

[jakelm]

Warm sound, out of those definitely the B&K. Rotel's that I have heard are more on the bright side, while the Adcom's I find to be in between. LSi7's? Adcom or B&K are better matches than Rotel in my limited experience, and I would personally go with B&K if I couldn't do A/B comparison.


Thanks Sami.

My vintage Monitor 7's. Sound great with the HK, want to find something with the same warm sound. With the option to turn the treble up on the HK, but not forced to bright highs.

[jakelm]

My sig quit showing up.

[a_mattison]

I heard some speaker-amp combo will only yield noticeable result at a certain volume. I want to be able to hear that improvement at all listening levels, not only at very high volumes. My HK goes from -65 to +6.5 IIRC and I listen at -20, if that gives you an idea of my listening level for movies. The mains are 7' away from the seating position and the room is 3000 cubic feet with two large openings to other rooms.

So the bottom line is the performance. I'm just concerned that after spending so much money with the 200 wpc amp I won't be able to hear the difference. I've been considering the Adcom GFA-7400 (5 x 100 wpc) vs the GFA-5503 (3 x 200 wpc for my mains)

Take a look at my signature. I have followed almost the same upgrade path as you are considering. I used to have my GFA-555 (200wpc) hooked up to my RTi70's in my HT, but moved it to 2-channel duty. now I have the GFA-7000 (125wpc I think) in my HT and couldnt' be happier. The quality ADCOM power to all 5 speakers really closed the gaps between speakers in the HT. movies are amazing now and 2 channel music is still pretty darn good. You would see a huge difference in SQ over the power from the H/K. I am not saying that the HK has a bad amp section, there is just a big difference when you step to external amplification.

[jakelm]

Take a look at my signature. I have followed almost the same upgrade path as you are considering. I used to have my GFA-555 (200wpc) hooked up to my RTi70's in my HT, but moved it to 2-channel duty. now I have the GFA-7000 (125wpc I think) in my HT and couldnt' be happier. The quality ADCOM power to all 5 speakers really closed the gaps between speakers in the HT. movies are amazing now and 2 channel music is still pretty darn good. You would see a huge difference in SQ over the power from the H/K. I am not saying that the HK has a bad amp section, there is just a big difference when you step to external amplification.

Oh I completely understand that. I just dont want to get away from the warm sound.

I am so excited about soon purchasing a new amp (tax money). My Hafler will go on surround duty, and I will look into maybe trying to bi-amp the Monitor 7's, if possible.

I think adding an external amp will increase the life of the HK. I am pushing the HK pretty hard right now with HT. I'm not much on quiet movies:p

[a_mattison]

Oh I completely understand that. I just dont want to get away from the warm sound.

I am so excited about soon purchasing a new amp (tax money). My Hafler will go on surround duty, and I will look into maybe trying to bi-amp the Monitor 7's, if possible.

I think adding an external amp will increase the life of the HK. I am pushing the HK pretty hard right now with HT. I'm not much on quiet movies:p

Jake, you'll still have the H/K sound that you like, only with a more open and 3 dimensional sound stage.

[jakelm]

Ok...and just so its THX certified...lol:eek::D

[jakelm]

The Adcom sold for alittle over $500. Is this a normal used price?

[iskandam]

I feel that the HK-RTi combo that I have produce a balanced sound that I like. I don't like overly bright sound but don't like warm tube sound either, which I find to be too dull for HT. So I'm wary about the selection of amp.

So far I heard that Adcom is neutral so it would work out with my combo. I'm also considering Rotel and B&K but have been hearing conflicting things about their sound characteristic...

[a_mattison]

The Adcom sold for alittle over $500. Is this a normal used price?

I think I paid $450 for mine, so this sold in the right range.

[Sami]

Can't really go wrong with multichannel amps like Adcom 7400 or B&K AV5000. Both should be in the $300-400 price range and give you around 5*100W. I've had both and I prefer the B&K but there is absolutely nothing wrong with the Adcom either.

[a_mattison]

I feel that the HK-RTi combo that I have produce a balanced sound that I like. I don't like overly bright sound but don't like warm tube sound either, which I find to be too dull for HT. So I'm wary about the selection of amp.

So far I heard that Adcom is neutral so it would work out with my combo. I'm also considering Rotel and B&K but have been hearing conflicting things about their sound characteristic...

You really can't go wrong using ADCOM for your first step into external amplification. It's not the end-all of amplifiers, but a very solid start. So much so that I can some to convince myself that I need to upgrade from here, if you can believe that!

[Kex]

Ok so I'm ready to make my first move into separate by getting a multichannel amp. I've been reading that the more power you feed into the speakers the better sound quality you'll get out of them. I like to listen loud but nowhere near reference level. Now my question is will I hear a significant difference between 100 wpc vs 200 wpc in an amp? I'm using RTi8s, CSi5 and FXi3s btw.

I'm asking because the price difference between a 5-channel 100 wpc amp vs 200 wpc is staggering. I'm currently using HK AVR 247 receiver that does 50 wpc. It gets as loud as I want it to go. I guess another way of asking this is would I hear a big enough leap in sound quality by upgrading to a 100 wpc amp or would I need to go further up the food chain with 200 wpc before realizing that improvement?
I would be very careful when considering sweeping statements about amplification in your case (and jakelm is in a similar situation). I was thinking that the modest 40w/ch of my harman/kardon 147 would be miniaturized in comparison to the 125w/ch of an Emotiva LPA-1. Not so. First of all, it turns out that the h/k outputs much more power than stated (albeit measured at 0.1% THD, which is higher than h/k's own measurement) making the difference in w/ch less than originally expected. Secondly, in stereo comparisons, I could never tell the difference. Thirdly, like mine, your speakers are not what might be considered difficult to drive. Whatever the explanation, I would be careful with budget multi-channel amplifiers when compared to something like a h/k 247. I was obviously disappointed and did not keep the Emotiva, but the lesson was not free.

For movies, I usually set the sound at -18dB (the scale on my 147 goes from -80dB to +8dB, IIRC). For music, it's usually between -30dB and -20dB. Both are loud enough for me in a room that is about 20'x15' with one large and one small opening.

One final point. When I tested the Emotiva, I still found it "unpleasant" to listen above 75dB (measured with a SPL meter), and even getting to higher levels required turning the knob to 60 on a scale of 0-80, beyond which I was not prepared to go (my ears were telling me to stop) so I was not impressed with anything that could be described as added clarity or detail. Another club member dbaldus, also has a similar setup to you, and uses a 247. He did not keep his LPA-1 either because he could not tell the difference. http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62755&highlight=Emotiva

Both dbladus and myself are still hoping to find better power, so neither of us are denying the benefits of added amplification, but quality does seem to matter. There is also a widely discussed idea that 200w/ch is necessary to really make a difference. YMMV.

[a_mattison]

I would be very careful when considering sweeping statements about amplification in your case (and jakelm is in a similar situation). I was thinking that the modest 40w/ch of my harman/kardon 147 would be miniaturized in comparison to the 125w/ch of an Emotiva LPA-1. Not so. First of all, it turns out that the h/k outputs much more power than stated (albeit measured at 0.1% THD, which is higher than h/k's own measurement) making the difference in w/ch less than originally expected. Secondly, in stereo comparisons, I could never tell the difference. Thirdly, like mine, your speakers are not what might be considered difficult to drive. Whatever the explanation, I would be careful with budget multi-channel amplifiers when compared to something like a h/k 247. I was obviously disappointed and did not keep the Emotiva, but the lesson was not free.

For movies, I usually set the sound at -18dB (the scale on my 147 goes from -80dB to +8dB, IIRC). For music, it's usually between -30dB and -20dB. Both are loud enough for me in a room that is about 20'x15' with one large and one small opening.

One final point. When I tested the Emotiva, I still found it "unpleasant" to listen above 75dB (measured with a SPL meter), and even getting to higher levels required turning the knob to 60 on a scale of 0-80, beyond which I was not prepared to go (my ears were telling me to stop) so I was not impressed with anything that could be described as added clarity or detail. Another club member dbaldus, also has a similar setup to you, and uses a 247. He did not keep his LPA-1 either because he could not tell the difference. http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62755&highlight=Emotiva

Both dbladus and myself are still hoping to find better power, so neither of us are denying the benefits of added amplification, but quality does seem to matter. There is also a widely discussed idea that 200w/ch is necessary to really make a difference. YMMV.

Good point, but make sure he takes into account my statements. I have made a very similar upgrade progression to what he is considering and noticed a very large difference between my HK 635 and the ADCOM amps.

[Kex]

... I have made a very similar upgrade progression to what he is considering and noticed a very large difference between my HK 635 and the ADCOM amps.
Of course, that might just mean that Adcom are better than the entry level Emotiva.

I think what disappointed dbaldus and myself was the difficulty we had in finding any useful difference whatsoever. Other users write about an "explosion of the soundstage", or night and day, immediately noticeable differences.

In my case, the h/k does everything I need for HT, so that is not an issue. Music listening is where I want something more.

[jakelm]

Good point, but make sure he takes into account my statements. I have made a very similar upgrade progression to what he is considering and noticed a very large difference between my HK 635 and the ADCOM amps.

Thats what I am trying to achieve. A better fuller soundstage. With the option to drive my system alittle harder.

My room is 25L x 16W x 9H open to the dining. So alot of space to fill with sound. Hopefully an external amp will help me achieve this.

[jakelm]

In my case, the h/k does everything I need for HT, so that is not an issue. Music listening is where I want something more.

And I'm just the oposite. I run my HK alot harder for HT, but for music it does an excellent job.

[tonyb]

kEX......If your feeling good about your ht and not music,might be time to move up the food chain and grab some new speakers.

[nikolas812]

kEX......If your feeling good about your ht and not music,might be time to move up the food chain and grab some new speakers.

That sounds like fun....:D

Edit: Sorry to just jump in your thread with a meaningless post.

[tonyb]

Don't feel bad,75% of the posts here are meaningless.:p

[Kex]

kEX......If your feeling good about your ht and not music,might be time to move up the food chain and grab some new speakers.
I was afraid somebody was going to suggest that, sooner or later! Oh well, it might be true, but I'll not hijack the thread with poor little ol' me and my upgrading woes!

Thanks for the idea though ... my loss may be some other Club member's gain!

P.S., I think I know why Nikolas is giggling about the idea too!

[Kex]

And I'm just the oposite. I run my HK alot harder for HT, but for music it does an excellent job.
Hmmm. That makes me wonder if what you need is not a new subwoofer ... and/or speakers! I have no idea how your current subwoofer measures up though, so I am just thinking "out loud", so to "speak"!

Aren't you using Monitor 7 and Monitor 4? That might also be an important factor in both cases (music and HT). Maybe we should just swap speakers: I'll probably get better music, and you'll possibly get better HT!

[Willow]

I quite like the combo I have HK/Marantz with my rtis.

[iskandam]

Good point, but make sure he takes into account my statements. I have made a very similar upgrade progression to what he is considering and noticed a very large difference between my HK 635 and the ADCOM amps.
This is very encouraging. I'm quite happy with my HK-RTi combo so far, but if $3-400 can get me that wider soundstage, night and day improvement, and tighter bass that everybody has been talking about then I'm not done yet.

a_mattison, I also have a Velodyne CHT-12. The next step is to upgrade the sub, but let's not get ahead of ourselves now :D

[a_mattison]

This is very encouraging. I'm quite happy with my HK-RTi combo so far, but if $3-400 can get me that wider soundstage, night and day improvement, and tighter bass that everybody has been talking about then I'm not done yet.

a_mattison, I also have a Velodyne CHT-12. The next step is to upgrade the sub, but let's not get ahead of ourselves now :D

:D That Velo isn't too bad of a sub. It's no SVS, but seems to pressurize my basement very well. It's a little slow, but not too sloppy.

The good news is, if you buy an ADCOM amp and don't think it made enough of an improvement, you can sell it and only be out the shipping it cost you to get it there.

[jakelm]

Hmmm. That makes me wonder if what you need is not a new subwoofer ... and/or speakers! I have no idea how your current subwoofer measures up though, so I am just thinking "out loud", so to "speak"!

Aren't you using Monitor 7 and Monitor 4? That might also be an important factor in both cases (music and HT). Maybe we should just swap speakers: I'll probably get better music, and you'll possibly get better HT!


I have 2 subs, 1 SVS DIY and a Dayton DIY, Subs are not the problem. My HT isnt bad, by far, I just want mooooorrrreeeee:p

Hmmm...Monitor 7's and 4's, bad for music amd HT??? Nah, its the amplification, thats needs improving..

[iskandam]

Ok this is seriously pi$$ing me off. I've been getting outbid on various amps (Carver, Adcom, B&K, Rotel) on eBay this past week... in the last 5 to 10 seconds :mad: On one of them the price jumped over $100 in the last 10 seconds. I'm gonna try pawn shops instead

[DannyD]

Are u using proxy bidding. That's the the key to winning items on ebay.