Poll: best sub to match LSi series

[polkatese]

Gang,
I need help in deciding on sub upgrade to match my current setup: LSi15/C/Fx...What I am looking for has to complement LSi15 on music. It must have tight bass, no boominess, 10" driver and up. Any suggestions? Thanks..

[RuSsMaN]

My favorite 'musical' sub is the Jm Lab Chorus. 11 inch, sealed enclosure. About $600. The Vandersteen model with 3 8's sealed is a great music sub also.

You feel the LSi15 needs a little more low end? I felt they stood alone musically, no sub needed.

Cheers,
Russ

[polkatese]

Russ,
it's more of convenience....LSi15 definitely has enough low end, I like to listen to stereo 5.1 mode, and I don't like to tinker with the setup (between HT and music)...so the sub that I am looking for has to "balance" with the LSi15, keeping the detailed tonal quality, without overwhelming them with "unnatural" artifacts....(I know, picky picky...)...where can one audition Jm Lab Chorus?

[RuSsMaN]

http://www.focal-jmlab.fr/gb/home/chorus/sw700.htm

I have a dealer, the website seems a little confusing as far as finding a 'retail' outlet, I'm still looking for ya.

Cheers,
Russ

[RuSsMaN]

http://www.audioplusservices.com/audiopl/mn1-aps.htm

Select Jm Lab, and enter your zip, it pulled up my local dealer.

Cheers,
Russ

It's worth a listen, I promise.

[polkatese]

Russ,
thanks, I'll audition it and let you know...

[tpeter]

www.svsubwoofers.com glad i made the move with one of their subs. Sounds great with the Lsi series.

[mantis]

while your out demoing,try a REL Strata 3.And a REL Q201E.

[MxStYlEpOlKmAn]

check out M&K -- they can be played loud and hard -- their new mx-125 is a kick arse subwoofer, plenty of headroom, push pull -dual 12 inch drivers, they go way below 20 hz -- they should fit ur needs perfectly

[polkatese]

Thanks all for your suggestions, I will get back to you with my impressions...the wife had put one more requirements: it has to be furniture friendly :D that is not an eyesore. I've heard about SVS, but boy, its appearance definitely less than desirable...

Russ,
I went to JMLab page, looks very appealing....

[mantis]

Rel Strata comes in cherry,super close to the finish on the Lsi's.Beautiful looking sub.

[Frank Z]

psst...Sunfire!

[polkatese]

Dan,
Rel Stadium III, what do you think of it? any idea on the pricing? I really like the rosenut finish, it will match well with my wall unit. thanks...

[RuSsMaN]

Originally posted by polkatese
Thanks all for your suggestions.Russ,
I went to JMLab page, looks very appealing....

Hey, keep us posted on the demos.

Cheers,
Russ

[TroyD]

Paradigm Servo-15.

BDT

[Dr. Spec]

Velo HGS-12. HSU VTF-3. Klipsch RSW-12.

Also, SVS is on the cusp of introducing a box line of subs.

Doc

[mantis]

polkatese,
It's a big one.I haven't heard it but just saw it.The finishes come in the Strata and up, the Q series is black ash.It's gotta be over 2 grand for that sub.The Strata is 1295.99 and the Storm is 1999.99 depending on finish.

Roll over to Tweeter and check them out.
The thing that I like about the RELS other then just awesome musical sound quality is the fact it has 2 preamps built in.One for music and one for LFE.They run at the same time as well.Balanced to the main speaker posts sharing a common ground,then run the usual LFE line level cable to the other.They both have seperate crossover points and volume control.2 cool.

[polkatese]

Dan,
this is very interesting, is it to say that one preamp feeds of the output level from main? so it actually complementing the low-end of the main (or LSi15) in my case? does tweeter carry several Rel series?

[mantis]

Yes.......let me explain how they work....

Rel makes there own Balanced cable that is speaker level.It hooks right up with your mains on the main out binding posts..speaker level.It has 3 wires.Yellow,red and black.Red is right positive,Yellow is left Positive and black is right or left ground.I usually just use the right ground.You can set the crossover on the REL to 40 hz.A nice place to finish out the full range for the Lsi15's......super cool and exactly what I'm gonna do.Then you blend in that input with music.Balance out so it goes away in the room never calling attention to itself and sounds like your Lsi15's just got a bigger woofer.........o so cool.
Next the sub can play double duty......enter LFE for theater....a seperate input,crossover,level. Just keeps getting cooler.Now you can bypass the internal crossover in the sub and take LFE straight from the Rotel....Set the Rotel at 60hz.Man I gotta tell you,the juice is flowing ..REL is all about me.......dude.

Tweeter has the Q series,StrataIII and Storm III.Thats it.But for your system I'd go with the StrataIII in your color of choice.....Cherry would match the speakers......but you deside.

[polkatese]

thanks for the explanation, Dan..this is great, that is exactly what I am looking for since it will let me independently tweak them for music and LFE. hmm.....I'll check them out at tweeter, too bad that they don't carry LSi15 too for a real life auditioning session

rosenut is my color, I have ebony on the LSi15 and bordeaux colored wall unit....

[mantis]

Have fun man,I'm hooked on there sub's and thats one of the big reasons why.

[mangata572]

I am considering the Rel StrataIII vs. StormIII. The Strata is sealed, while the Storm has a port. Any thoughts? Anyone?

[polkatese]

Dr. Spec,
any idea on the eta of svs cube? pricing? thx

[Dr. Spec]

Man, I looked all over creation for a "technical" review of REL subs. All I found was a slew of largely subjective reviews (many of them British) that pretty much raved about sound quality for music, but had next to nothing to say about "hard" data. Sure, there were a few comments here and there about subjective perceptions of extension and sound pressure, but nothing to really sink your teeth into.

I am a firm believer that anything audible is also measureable. Before I laid out over 2 large on a sub, I'd want to see a Tom Nousaine / Howard Ferstler / Brian Weatherhead / Dr. John Johnson type review with Frequency Response, THD, SPL, Transient Response, Port Noise, etc. all specified in objective terms.

Mantis - can you help here?

Doc

[Dr. Spec]

Originally posted by polkatese
Dr. Spec,
any idea on the eta of svs cube? pricing? thx

I'm just going on what I've read on other HT forums, but the end of the year (i.e,, within 5 weeks) is a good bet.

Product line-up and pricing will be comparable to the current PCi, PC+ line.

SVS has already admitted that their cylinder design subs will still offer a slightly better performance/$$ ratio than the new box design subs - in exchange for a slightly better Wife Acceptance Factor. This is a trade-off SVS is willing to bet many potential consumers will make that have heretofore been put off by the conspicuous cylinder design.

At the same time, though, they make the claim that their new box design will outperform any other competitor's similarly priced and sized box design.

SVS is also putting the final touches on a "super sub" (which for them is REALLY saying something). It will be a large box design, almost assuredly multiple drivers, have a user tunable FR down to 7 Hz, can handle 5 kilowatts of power, and will be capable of 130+ dB peaks at 20 Hz and higher with much less than 10% THD. It will be THE sub for those with really large rooms who need to achieve "reference level" (i.e., 121 dB bass peaks with the speaks set to small) play back for HT.

Doc

[mantis]

Mantis - can you help here?

Yes I can shed some light here in my own words and experience with REL sub's.

Strata III

For hard data reasons:
Frequency responce=20hz to 120hz
Amp=100 watts mosphet power and 200 peak power.
driver=10 inch bottom mounted downward firing.
Finsih=black,Cherry,Light Oak,Rosewood,Walnut,or Grittex Black.

The Cherry is my personal favorite.

Performance:
To date I haven't heard a more musical sub.These British made subs are fantastic for 2 channel,Multichannel.Smooth bass,Quick as hell,acurate,Blends so well you'd sware you added another driver for bass in your exsisting speaker system...super musical.
For Theater it's powerfull and clear.It can shake all but the biggest rooms.It's not boomy and overly explosive,so if your looking for a sub that just rips the walls down and thunders over the rest of your system, this sub isn't for you.If you like to hear what was recorded then REL is all about you.
Thats the short and sweat version of my review.I could typr all night long and not get across how much I love em.

Storm III

Frequency=18-120Hz
Amp= 150 watt and 300 peak
This sub is ported.
Comes in all the same colors as the Strata.It's bigger.

Performance.......Awesome.Musical...........can shake a large room.
Same review as the Strata except it can fill a large room.

These sub's are so good.The fact that you can play music and theater without having to adjust the levels is so damn good.It's that damn good.
Sound pressure you want??is playing clean over 100db ok?How about 110db??Not a problem with the big REL's.

Y

[RuSsMaN]

//a side note to Dan, everyone else disregard//

Mosphet? Jesus H Christ man.

www.hop.com

Cheers,
Rooster

[mantis]

dude you know I can't spell to save my life..........thats just what I do.......Spelling challenged me........I mean well...

[Dr. Spec]

Originally posted by RuSsMaN
//a side note to Dan, everyone else disregard//

Mosphet? Jesus H Christ man.

www.hop.com

Cheers,
Rooster

OMG!! We just about DIED over here!!!

metal oxide semiconductor field effect transistor (MOSFET)

Mantis has hereby graduated HOP school.

:lol:

Dan, thanks for the info - I was hoping for an independent technical review, but I guess we'll take your word for it. All the othe reviewers seem to agree on the sound quality.

Doc

[mantis]

Ph and F make the same sound am I right or what????Glad to give everyone a laugh at my expense........cool.

Doc,
Technical review???I could go on with a full review...MANTIS style but Technical?Naaa.Quoting spec's is about as technical as I'm gonna go with it.I'd rather talk more about what Iv'e experienced then Tech talk.......just my style dude.

[polkatese]

Doc,
thanks on svs insight...

I went to tweeter today, auditioned the REL strata III and Storm III running off B&K 507 and Vienna Mozart and Sonus Faber Grand Piano. While listening to them, I am actually making a comparison between my LSi15 and these two speakers. My first impression, LSi15 outperform the Mozart, it lacks the clarity and details that my ears start to appreciate much more, and I am damned proud of it (outshining a $2400 speakers, I think, is not too shabby) now I have to bow to Sonus Faber GP though, the amount of the details coming out SFGP just floored me, it's like listening to a live performance, amazing. But at $3500, you better get what you paid for!

ok, let's go back to the REL, it is a very musical sub, on the strata, that 100w is kinda misleading, because it's actually has the same punch as the Rotel (in terms of high-current). The guy actually try to redirect my interest to the storm. The manager has one black ash finish in the warehouse that he is willing to give it to me for $1600. The problem is, the storm is actually taller than your typical sub, and somewhat not wife-friendly, and black ash finish definitely not helping. What do you think Dan? I felt that the storm is a bit overkill, next to LSi15. But, they are very musical sub.On SACD materials, it is very apparent that the low end became very defined and punchy

...check this out, the sales guy actually giving kudo to Polk LSi series. It's almost funny that they felt the decision to not carry Polk start haunting them. He mentioned that they lost some Klipsch business to LSi convert...interesting huh....

[RuSsMaN]

Originally posted by mantis
Ph and F make the same sound am I right or what????Glad to give everyone a laugh at my expense........cool.

Doc,
Technical review???I could go on with a full review...MANTIS style but Technical?Naaa.Quoting spec's is about as technical as I'm gonna go with it.

Big bag AGAIN, specs? What from the manual? I'm guessing not, mosPHet and all. . .

Cheers,
Rooster

Quiz time Dan, which Rel subs are sealed, are which aren't? (just checking, because of the last post on this topic) ;)

[mantis]

Russ.........o Russ...........your not going mental on me are you???Should I be scared???Silence ring a bell???


Quiz time Dan, which Rel subs are sealed, are which aren't? (just checking, because of the last post on this topic)
OK I will start there...All the sub's we carry of there lines are sealed except one.....the stormIII.But all of the Q series and the Strara is.........all sealed my man...We don't carry the big boys.So do I pass or do you need to get your web pages on????


Big bag AGAIN, specs? What from the manual? I'm guessing not, mosPHet and all. . .

If I quoted from the manual......isn't that what people are looking for?????And something wrong with manuals???Sorry but REL uses mosFet amps.....the strata just so happens to be 100 watts DC-coupled.Is that good?????It looks like I got my F correct? Or did I.Better check that one again.I can quote the spec's word for word if you want me 2.................................Storm is mosFet 2.....damn and DC-coupled.....Imagine that.**** dude the Q series has mosFet as well......what will we do???

The problem is, the storm is actually taller than your typical sub, and somewhat not wife-friendly, and black ash finish definitely not helping. What do you think Dan? I felt that the storm is a bit overkill, next to LSi15. But, they are very musical sub.On SACD materials, it is very apparent that the low end became very defined and punchy
It's up 2 you my man.Wife needs to look at it 2.I'd get the Strata in your color of choice.I'm glad you got 2 HEAR ONE instead of just talking about it like someone else does(Russ).
The Strom is powerfull........I like how you work in the Rotel........funny ****.....your just loving that bad boy huh.......good for you man.Did you happen to check out the Q series while you where there???Smaller and still musical and got balls.

[polkatese]

Dan,
I skipped the Q cause it looks tiny and weak :D I wonder if it will pass muster compared to my celestion, beside it just doesn't do it for me (before listening), it's like staring at those klipsch orange drivers (no offense, klipsch diehards...) :p

what do you think of Mirage sub?

[mantis]

Mirage sub's are ok at best.No better then Polk sub's.I'm suprised you didn't give a Q series a run..........they are small yes but powerfull,judge it by it's size you did.Powerfull with the bass it is.Smooth like it's brother it will do.

[mangata572]

All,

I called a dealer asking about Strata vs. Storm. The guy told me in my 22x24 room the Storm would fill the room better than the Strata because it plays twice as loud. Does this sound like a sales pitch for me to spend the extra $$$? This dealer is 2 hrs away, so I want to get the most info I can before going. I'm not a base heavy listener, just looking for a very musical sub. Any thoughts on sealed vs. ported design regardless of brand?

[polkatese]

mangata572,
it's a good question. I don't know what's the design philosophy around sealed vs. ported. On my celestion (a sealed version) I noticed when I watched heavy content LFE movies (such as LOTR:FOTR) the woofer struggles quite a bit to move the air. Is it to say that on ported sub, the air movement can be channeled better?

Dan, comments please....:confused:

[HBombToo]

I'm not Dan but I think vented should give a 3dB increase from sealed.

just my 2c

HBomb

[mangata572]

polkatese,
That might be one of the salesman's reasons for trying to send me on the ported Storm III route (might not be just sales BS). I did take a Sunfire MK2 home for a demo (from a diffrent dealer) that is a sealed active/pasive design. So we could add another design type in the mix.

The Sunfire MK2 sounds much better than my polk psw350, but still not a musical as I would like. Thats not to discount the Sunfire, who knows, I might get it for $900 vs. Rel's high $$$.

[polkatese]

HBomb,
would it fair to say then vented/ported should be relatively better? or just different?

[HBombToo]

When it comes to the nuances of subs and their ability to be more musical than others I am lost...

For me all I know, from what I have read, is the vented sub can handle more power efficiently without damaging the woofer because of free air flow. The free air flow , "I guess", attributes to the additional power through coupling.

But ****, I'm a rookie and have alot to learn!

HBomb

[polkatese]

mangata572,
price wise, you should be able to get it at (from the get go, before further negotiation, once you decided), strata: $1150; storm $1600-1750 (black ash tend to be cheaper) if you go with the special order colors (rosenut, walnut, etc) then the discount is more like 10% of retail.....I know one thing, on audiogon, these rel get snapped so fast, is not even funny. I blinked couple times, and these puppys dissapeared. The going rate seems to be strata:$800-900 and storm $1250-1350...that's actually pretty good testament of its quality

there is one stadium II available for a cool $7300 (yep, lots of dough, ain't for me) :p

[polkatese]

stadium III available:

http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?homesubw&1043018998

[mangata572]

I think the only way to find the sub that works the best with anyones setup is a in home demo, but how can a person demo all the stuff they are thinking of buying at once, in their home. impossible! That is why I like these forums!

[mangata572]

Thanks for the pricing info. I guess when it comes to the cash, better to get what you want the first time, rather than continuous upgrading.

[NDTA]

Let get the priority straight:

if you care about music, get the bidg monsdo Polk PSW1200.

if you care about home theater, movies stuff get the Vedodyne SPL 1200.

if you want the best of both worlds, hook up both, turn on the one you need depend what application.

Now where is the cash???

[Dr. Spec]

Vented vs. ported? Man you are opening a huge can of worms.

There are DIY subwoofer sites and chat forums that delve pretty deeply into the design of subwoofers. The decision to vent, or go with acoustic suspension, or a passive radiator is based on a bunch of variables, including the characteristics and operating parameters of the specific driver in question, the enclosure volume and its natural tuning point, the desired frequency response (i.e., -3 dB point), and the desired sound pressure levels.

None of it is really rocket science if you take the time to sort through it all, but it is pretty technical.

With that said, usually a subwoofer is vented to achieve a uniform SPL down to lower frequencies than would otherwise be possible with an acoustic suspension design because the woofer would otherwise exceed it's physical excursion limits trying to move that much air alone at the very lowest frequencies.

If you look at the cone excursion plotted against the frequency spectrum, you'll note that with a properly designed vented subwoofer, more air will come from the vent(s) at the lowest frequencies than comes from the woofer itself. The vent "tunes" the enclosure and amplifies what would otherwise be a pretty tepid output from the woofer itself - much like how a flute can be heard in a concert hall with very little effort from the musician.

Then, below the natural tuning point, woofer excursion skyrockets and bottoming can be a real problem without a subsonic filter.

Sound quality? Either design can be made to sound fantastic if the designer knows how to mix and match all variables to achieve the desired results. Sealed subs have a reputation for "tighter" bass but are generally not bottom dwellers. Ported subs have a reputation for SPL and extension possibly at the expense of tightness. Whether or not these reputations are well deserved or even valid is up for discussion.

I do know one thing - when Ron-P gets around to venting his sealed DIY Sono-Sub Tempest - watch out - he will unleash the beast within!

Doc

[polkatese]

Doc,
thanks for the explanation. I realised that the subject is pretty controversial, no right or wrong answer, but it's part of the education process. Now I am going to get some popcorn and six pack and watch the fireworks....:lol: :lol:

[QUOTE]If you look at the cone excursion plotted against the frequency spectrum, you'll note that with a properly designed vented subwoofer, more air will come from the vent(s) at the lowest frequencies than comes from the woofer itself. The vent "tunes" the enclosure and amplifies what would otherwise be a pretty tepid output from the woofer itself - much like how a flute can be heard in a concert hall with very little effort from the musician.

vented design would logically allow for supplying fresh air to the gasping woofer, during the intake (inhale) movement of the cone while producing the lowest frequencies, right doc? am I missing something here? how do you quantify "tightness"? or is it more of perception and preference? inquiring mind at work....

[Dr. Spec]

There is nothing really controversial about sealed vs. ported subwoofer design. It's all physics - pure and simple.

All I was alluding to with my comment about these things being up for discussion is that it is certainly possible to poorly design a sealed subwoofer that has sloppy sounding bass, and conversely it is also possible to properly design a vented sub that has extraordinarily tight sounding bass.

What we have each heard (and that is certainly a finite universe) of different brands of subs can certainly color our opinions on these things. That is why I look for independent technical reviews to separate the hype from fact.

Too often I hear "this sub is this, or that" when there is no basis for saying so except specs from the manufacturer or your ears. If you haven't heard all the best subs out there, how can you possibly say with confidence that sub X is unequivocably the best in terms of (insert subjective term here)? I say prove it. If you can hear it, it can be measured and compared to something else and whatever difference you are hearing between brand X and brand Y can be quantified. I'll take 3 pages of charts and graphs anyday over some reviewer who waxes eloquently about warm, nutty, lack of smear, wooly, or any other nebulous terms.

I wish to hell I had the time to demo tons of gear, but truth be told I often rely on the collective opinions of more experienced enthusiasts and I admittedly (with a return policy assurance) have purchased gear without a demo. When enough informed enthusiasts tell me the Polk RT800i is a damn good tower, I tend to believe them. Ditto for the hundreds upon hundreds of overwhelmingly positive comments I have read about SVS products. I bought my 20-39PC+ without a demo and haven't looked back. I don't have to guess this sub is a giant killer in its price class - I KNOW it is based on scads of independent and technically vigorous tests of SVS products. I purchased this sub with great confidence and I wasn't disappointed.

Anyway, no way are you going to get me to start waxing on about vented subwoofer design, or "tightness" (it's related to transient response and group decay). It's way too detailed and I'm nothing of an expert - just an engineer who digs this kind of stuff.

Here is one of the best websites I have found on the subject for the DIY-er:

http://www.carstereo.com/help2/Articles.cfm

Read to your heart's content, oh inquiring one.

Also, "The Loudspeaker Design Cookbook" by Vance Dickason will pretty much tell you much of the same stuff and I'd bet more than one Club Polk member has a copy. Get it at Amazon.com.

Regards,

Doc

[polkatese]

Doc,
thanks for the explanations, I can tell that you are an engineer, I was one.....you are right on in all points, for me, at the end of the day, I am not looking for a perfect system, because I know it's all about what I can afford. We can talk all day about the best system one can have, but I don't have tons of dough to play with, hence I am relying on the experience of folks in this forum to lead me to a directionally sound path.....

Now, on to the thread subject, I have spent several days now, doing auditioned to several outstanding subs out there. I was hoping that I can audition JM Lab per Russ suggestion, but no luck. Can't find anybody that carry the product within a reasonable driving distance (especially not in this Santa Ana wind creating major havoc for the past several days, anyway). So, last night took the mrs to tweeter (after all, she is the real deal decision maker for me). We reaudition the REL strata and storm, this time I brought in my DVD-A big phat band as the reference (since I spent many many hours listening to the details of this dvd, and for auditioning speakers, it's the best one...I love the sound of brass, horn sections, and grand piano). We spend about an hour going back and forth between two surround rooms at tweeter, since these two sub-bass were located separately). At the end of the audition, she was clearly impressed with the storm more than the strata (even though the strata was paired with Sonus Faber GP, that is sooooooooo detailed and clean). I negotiated an awesome deal with tweeter on the price, and we left agreeing that we made the right decision). I had hooked them up last night, today is tweaking time for me.
First impressions, It's an awesome badass sub-bass. I am in musical nirvana right now (even as I am typing this, I set the gain at 12 o'clock for both, music and lfe). It extends the low end of the LSi15 like you won't believe. It sounds like they are made for each other, no overwhelming boom, it extends the frequencies for the whole spectrum. Yes, it does the most impact on the low end, but the mid range is also improved quite a bit (perception or fact I am not sure, but my ears are delighted.....)
Dan, kudos to you for directing me in this direction! you are da man! next time you are in town, call me, I owe you a dinner....
I'll post some more after I calibrate the beast some more....

cheers,
polkadance....

[mantis]

Dude,
I'm not the man..........your the man.dude your system is coming along so good..I'm so happy for yeah.Dude your system is becoming a carbonm copy of mine.

So You got the big Storm........dude that sub is so nice man.Now you got a idea why I love em so much.........as usual,I'm now all juiced up...............happy for yeah,
Dan

[polkatese]

Dan,
don't be modest, got to take the credits. For one, I don't even know what REL is all about, if you didn't mention it, second, I thought subwoofer is subwoofer, period, and I know I am not about to upgrade my celestion for another floor thumping boom box, and I've been proved wrong...there's subwoofer and then there is sub-bass. And that is what I need. Speaking of which, is anybody selling the neutrix cable upgrade? I thought this cable look flimsy, especially for passing through the whole spectrum of frequencies, or does it make any difference for its intended purpose?

cheers, fh

[mantis]

polkatese,
thank you.The cable remember it only has to pass a limited bandwith,it's protected from outside noise due to the balanced design.If I where you I'd set that preamp at 40hz.Give the sub some time to break in.........it gets better