listen to your SDA's without the interconnect SDA cable?

[danger boy]

you ever listen to your SDA's without the SDA intereconnect cable?

second to the last option should read. you are a risk taker and now want to use your SDA"s without the cable.

[danger boy]

cast your vote not.. make it count. ;)

[avguytx]

Ok....I'm in.

[John in MA]

I use my cable most of the time, but certain music sounds better without the effect. At least in a small listening room.

I think folks sometimes don't realize you're not losing any "positive" speaker driving when that thing's disconnected.

[danger boy]

I use my cable most of the time, but certain music sounds better without the effect. At least in a small listening room.

I think folks sometimes don't realize you're not losing any "positive" speaker driving when that thing's disconnected.

Thank you.. i think you understand.. that some times SDA's sound just great without the SDA cable. Some music is over exagerated in it's soundstage using the SDA interconnect.

[dorokusai]

If you don't like enjoy SDA, awesome but if it sounds better to you without the cable....you should try listening to better loudspeakers. Save me the piss and moan about what you've heard in the interim, respectfully....but maybe it's time to move on, its ok.....its ok, you're not alone little soldier.

[nms]

The only stuff I like better without the cable is George Winston on piano, because one mic was used for the low notes and one for the high notes. With the SDAs, this makes the piano unnaturally wide and non-directional. With the SDA cable un-plugged the soundstage solidifies towards the center.

But for everything else I use the cable.

[danger boy]

it's not a case of it sounds better this way or that way... some music doesn't transfer well under the SDA effect of the speakers.

just saying that the SDA's sound good and are decent enough speakers without the cable.

that's all. it's not worth arguing over... there is no right or wrong answer to it.

[dorokusai]

it's not a case of it sounds better this way or that way... some music doesn't transfer well under the SDA effect of the speakers.

Really? No kidding? Man, I've wasted alot of man hours.

[danger boy]

Really? No kidding? Man, I've wasted alot of man hours.

don't you wish you could get all those hour's back now? ;)

[dorokusai]

Yes, but I slept at a Holiday Inn Express last night so aside from the bedbug problem, I feel fine.

[nadams]

I use my cable most of the time, but certain music sounds better without the effect. At least in a small listening room.

I think folks sometimes don't realize you're not losing any "positive" speaker driving when that thing's disconnected.

You're telling me that with the interconnect unplugged, I don't lose half the active drivers?

That's the way I've always understood it. Inside drivers are stereo, outside drivers are SDA.

[dorokusai]

You do, it's the SDA vs Stereo that they're referring to nadams.

Hijack - Where are you on this subwoofer demo? Check the thread and update over there please.

[F1nut]

I think folks sometimes don't realize you're not losing any "positive" speaker driving when that thing's disconnected.

You're going to have to explain that one.

[shadowofnight]

I think folks sometimes don't realize you're not losing any "positive" speaker driving when that thing's disconnected.

Not according to the schematics....

[John in MA]

It's not quite that simple. The outer SDA drivers, above 200 Hz, are "active" but they don't produce the sound you're actually trying to listen to. They play a quiet mirror image of the other channel to cancel it out in that ear and supposedly present a more natural image of the soundstage. In most of the frequency range you're only actively hearing the inner stereo drivers.

Below 200 Hz the SDA drivers function in concert with the stereo drivers, instead of mirroring.

By unplugging the SDA cable you only lose the canellation effect. They still work below 200Hz because they're wired in parallel (through big inductors) to the stereo drivers.

The sound you're normally aware of hearing will still be there. The soundstage will probably be a little more compressed. As a "straight" speaker, a 1.2TL (for example) is essentially a 5-way (?? not sure, I don't recall how many steps the tweeter array has) with four drivers crossed below 200Hz, four drivers crossed below 2000Hz, and the multi-way tweeter line. The only difference in SDA operation is that the four outer drivers play a mirror from 200-2000Hz.

[dorokusai]

Is that based on visual confirmation of the non-SDA drivers, upon stereo input? You do realize that they are sealed enclosures right? I'm positive you hear sound "from" those drivers but it's residual and from the adjacent driver.

[John in MA]

No, it's based on looking at the schematic. Take the interconnect out of the equation and the SDA drivers are paralled to the main inputs just like the stereo drivers, only through an additional inductor. The fact that they work in stereo below 200Hz is in Polk's description somewhere, too.

I should note that I'm only talking about the big SRS models, I've never bothed to research the smaller models since I don't own any.

[shadowofnight]

On my SRS schematics, there is a 16mH coil that ties to the sda arrays ground ( Well negative...shows ground icon on schematics ) ...I hadnt noticed that before.

So basically I should be able to pull my radiator ( Un-coupling all the drivers by internal air volume ) and apply a 1.5v d cell to the terminals and watch all 8 drivers move in unison forward and reverse polarity and watch them move back. Gonna also try one of my test cd's that has the drivers moving so slowly ( 5Hz ) that you can SEE if they are in phase and excursing the same amount.

[F1nut]

I don't believe that is correct. The SDA drivers only work between 150Hz and 2000Hz. They do not reproduce a signal out of that range.

[John in MA]

My original 1989 manual for my 1.2s lists the second low-pass crossover point as being for all drivers, although it says 150Hz so I might have picked up the 200 number from original SRS article in Stereo Review.

Some of the smaller/older ones might not work this way. I looked at a schematic for something in the 1 series a while back that didn't have as much wiring.

[treitz3]

Somebody here is losing a little credibility. :eek:

[shadowofnight]

Somebody here is losing a little credibility. :eek:

Just because they quoted Stereo Review :D

[shadowofnight]

Spent the last hour and a half testing my sda's ( SRS...2.3...CRS+ ) All sda 6.5" drivers work identical ( In phase and with similar acoustical/power output ) to the stereo drivers up to AROUND 150Hz.

This is also supported by the schematics ( Never really looked at them in depth before ) as well as the factory manuals.

My 2.3's came with an awesome extra manual describing what drivers were active at what particular frequency , as well as describing the SDA effect in greater detail then I had ever seen before. This extra manual also has PICTURES as well...so I took some shots . It explains the SDA effect is best engineered for between 800Hz and 2KHz. Here are some of the pics....

[shadowofnight]

High freq.....

[shadowofnight]

2.3 crossover description

[F1nut]

I looked thru all the SDA material I have and didn't find anything that really addressed the issue, except that the SDA cut off is at 150Hz, so I've edited my previous post to reflect that. I'd like to hear what Matt Polk has to say about it.

[heiney9]

So the cable is detachable :confused:.......................................

























:D

H9

[nms]

I back John up, below 150 or 200 Hz ( I think it's 200) the SDA drivers work with the stereo drivers to produce the bass. I've read it somewhere... :)

[heiney9]

Let's keep in mind the generation and model have a lot to do with how the "dimensional" drivers are incorporated into the whole mix.

H9

[Marty913]

So the cable is detachable ?

Too funny.

(it is but not advised - the Interconnect Police are always watching)

[shadowofnight]

Every schematic pdf I looked at...every brochure and piece of polk literature I looked at...as well as testing my own SRS...2.3...and the CRS+'s confirms that below 150Hz EVERY 6.5" driver works in phase ...ONLY with its relative channel...and with the same output.

Where polk played around with was what frequency AFTER 150Hz the SDA effect kicked in and what frequency it signed off at ( Their progressive point source for the higher frequencies technology proves this as the higher the frequency goes less tweeters are active until only one is active on the very high end ...as well as that the tweeters are vertically stacked ...cant have any differential time delay wise between them ( The VERY early sda's experimented with high end sda effect ..remember the early CRS's with dual sideways mounted tweeters ...but it was dropped right away in the sda line ).

So polk realized early on the sda effect was a midrange based technology...another problem with attempting to use sda at anything under 150Hz would be bass cancellation as the 6.5" drivers are air coupled with themselves and the radiator and that would cause all kinds of lower frequency havok inside that enclosure.

Polk was one smart cookie with this sda effect and it still shows today

[John in MA]

Thanks for the research. I'm curious, does that cool extra manual have a name? I've never seen one like that. I thought I had all the original paperwork. Does yours cover the 1.2 series, too?

[danger boy]

has anyone but me and a few other's listened to their SDA's without the cable?

[shadowofnight]

Thanks for the research. I'm curious, does that cool extra manual have a name? I've never seen one like that. I thought I had all the original paperwork. Does yours cover the 1.2 series, too?

It covers the 1.2 and the 2.3 ( Came with the 2.3 though ) ....I thought the pictures were great in it....no misinterpreting written words....it shows what is active at what frequency.

I already knew that all of the 6.5" drivers worked in unison below 150Hz....what I learned by going deeper is that I was thinking ( Along with a lot of others here ) that if the SDA cable was off you had ZERO signal going to the sda drivers...this is clearly not the case. The sda cable is a pathway for the sda frequencies from the opposite channel's crossover....the 6.5" sda drivers are actually paralleled internally inside each cabinet to the stereo drivers ( As you mentioned in your posts ) for 150Hz and below functionality.

So basically all you are losing by pulling the sda cable is the frequency range from 150Hz to 2KHz ( Give or take a frequency here and there between different sda models crossover points ) for the sda 6.5" drivers ONLY. They are still in circuit and producing output from 150Hz and below ( Which is why you lose no bass output with a pulled sda cable....you only lose the sda effect )

If you would like a copy of the manual PM me your address and I will make a copy for you. :D

[heiney9]

has anyone but me and a few other's listened to their SDA's without the cable?

Al, I'm all for people doing what they want but I truly have never had a need to listen w/o the cable. I've unplugged it for demo purposes when I have people over to listen that have never heard SDA's but that's only for a few seconds at a time.

I do have a few recordings that aren't really recorded for the SDA's strengths and do sound a bit unnatural, for lack of a better word, but very few are that bothersome.

Piano is the one type of recording that's gets mentioned a lot and for most of the piano music I listen too it just isn't an issue, but the George Winston can sound a little detached. In all honesty when I listen to a live piano in person the sound is extremely non-directional so in the case of piano recordings I'd bet it's the recording process that is the culprit.

H9

[shadowofnight]

has anyone but me and a few other's listened to their SDA's without the cable?

Actually, with the multiple driver sda's you might even end up with a "Cleaner" sound for recordings that have no benefit with an sda effect.

Think about it...on an SRS you have 8 drivers taking care of the full midrange spectrum ( L/R channels ) ....without the sda cable the 8 sda drivers can now reproduce the 150Hz and below bass frequencies without the sda higher frequency harmonics muddying up the bass frequencies.

Sure the sda effect widens the soundstage on music that is recorded to have a benefit from the technology ( Lots of stereo effects in the music ...moving between right and left channels...RUSH sounds amazing ) ...but a lot of music just doesnt have these stereo effects in the recording.

I would bet money a mono recording would sound measurably cleaner and with no less output ( db per watt ) on a pair of srs's that had the sda cable removed.

I didnt know at the time...but now I think I can answer why the CRS+'s sounded just as good if not better when I left the sda cable off in the family room home theatre...the transitioning between left to center to right was better and visa versa ( Only reason I even tried was because it was gonna be a major pain in the ass to run the sda cable behind all my gear :o ) I caved in to perceived perfection and ripped everything out to run the sda cable. I couldnt compare perceived bass loss ( Now I know there is no bass loss without the cable ) because they were set to small and only doing 80Hz and above.

[heiney9]

Actually, with the multiple driver sda's you might even end up with a "Cleaner" sound for recordings that have no benefit with an sda effect.

I have yet to hear a recording (except mono) that doesn't benefit from the natural human effect that the SDA provides. Recordings that have little spatial information don't suffer one bit on SDA's. My 1C's have one of the clearest presentations I've heard and the ability to see "into" the recording is really a trip. The layering of instrument and voices is spectacular. Instruments float around within the soundstage as one would imagine them in person (unless of a poor recording/mixing process)

I'll add that I do listen to a lot of live music and the SDA's are superb for live recordings, whether they be amateur bootleg recordings or professionally mixed live recordings, that's where it's at for me. Sh*t, there are times when someone in the crowd yells out and I jump because they sound like they are right next to me :D

No matter what we will always be at the mercy of the source material and the recording process.


For me personally, I see no need to run the SDA's w/o the cable.

H9

[shadowofnight]

For me personally, I see no need to run the SDA's w/o the cable.

H9

I always use the cable as well...I even left it on the CRS+'s for HT use...it was just interesting what I found out last night in terms of the sda 6.5" drivers being used for 150Hz and below with or without the sda cable...that was the interesting part for me.

I always thought if you pulled the sda cable you just chopped your active drivers in half and screwed the pooch....not the case at all.

[heiney9]

I always use the cable as well...I even left it on the CRS+'s for HT use...it was just interesting what I found out last night in terms of the sda 6.5" drivers being used for 150Hz and below with or without the sda cable...that was the interesting part for me.

I always thought if you pulled the sda cable you just chopped your active drivers in half and screwed the pooch....not the case at all.

Your experiments and info was great. Relearning old stuff and learning some new stuff in the process never hurts.

H9

[danger boy]

very well said guys.... and thanks for clearing up some of the dimensional driver info..... i learn something every time we have a lively conversation like this going back and forth. it benefits everyone with new or clairified information.

i wasn't trying to say that I only listen to SDA"s without the cable.. or that it sounds better with or without it. just for the purists, I was trying to convey that the SDA's sound quite good even without the cable. to each his own though.

i go back and forth with and without cable.

[GV#27]

I always use the cable as well...I even left it on the CRS+'s for HT use..Having no expierience with SDA's I'm curious as to how wide the listening window is and still being able to get the full SDA effect.

I have heard the Carver Sonic Holography generator(which does something similar though electrically) but the effect seemed limited to one listener.

[heiney9]

Having no expierience with SDA's I'm curious as to how wide the listening window is and still being able to get the full SDA effect.

I have heard the Carver Sonic Holography generator(which does something similar though electrically) but the effect seemed limited to one listener.

I'm not sure I understand your first question. The Carver is a very limited piece; the passive approach used in the SDA's is much more realistic in the sense of compensating for natural aural phenomenon. As well as being less limiting to listening position. Early gen. SDA's, especially those that use a dimensional tweeter, were more listening position specific.

H9

P.s. maybe I did answer your first question. On later gen SDA's you can be outside the sweet spot and still benefit from the SDA experience, but the sweetspot is still the "best" for 100% listening experience.

[MarcLazarek78]

I pose a new simplified question; how can the IC cable hurt?

[heiney9]

I pose a new simplified question; how can the IC cable hurt?

It can't; they were designed to use the cable and the SDA interaural crosstalk cancellation won't work w/o it. It's really not a relevant question as it's part of the design of the speaker.

H9

[John in MA]

I'm not sure if there's anything specific you can point to, but in general a recording with exaggerated stereo seperation or unusual sound location might sound a little weird on an SDA speaker. When you get music that's trying to unnaturally stretch things out on a normal stereo rig the SDA channel isolation can be peculiar.

There's an experimental track on one of my Jefferson Airplane albums (After Bathing at Baxters) that does some switching from mono to wide, wide stereo. In my too-small room it sounds like the drums are coming from outside the house.

[GV#27]

maybe I did answer your first question. On later gen SDA's you can be outside the sweet spot and still benefit from the SDA experience, but the sweetspot is still the "best" for 100% listening experience.Yes it is the relative size of the sweetspot I was curious about..ie can two or three people experience the benifits.

[heiney9]

I was curious about..ie can two or three people experience the benifits.

Yes, absolutely. The person in the exact sweetspot gets a bit of an extra treat. But all will notice the aural effect; it's not so subtle ;). The earlier SDA's with the dimensional tweeters are a lot more listening position specific.

H9

[nms]

I've used the Carver Holography circuit with my 10Bs before I had the SDAs and there's no comparison: Carver tried to solve a problem tied up in the dimensions of your ears with fancy circuitry, and it kinda worked if you had everything set up perfectly, but in my experience the sweet spot was about 2 inches wide. The SDAs do this so much better it's not even funny: you can still get the SDA effect in a box about 3 feet wide and 5 feet long.

[Marty913]

Yes, absolutely. The person in the exact sweetspot gets a bit of an extra treat. But all will notice the aural effect; it's not so subtle ;). The earlier SDA's with the dimensional tweeters are a lot more listening position specific.

H9


I've used the Carver Holography circuit with my 10Bs before I had the SDAs and there's no comparison: Carver tried to solve a problem tied up in the dimensions of your ears with fancy circuitry, and it kinda worked if you had everything set up perfectly, but in my experience the sweet spot was about 2 inches wide. The SDAs do this so much better it's not even funny: you can still get the SDA effect in a box about 3 feet wide and 5 feet long.

I agree (especially about the earlier dimensional tweeter models like the SDA2) but would even go further with "benefits" to sweet spot deprived listeners. My couch is 7 feet wide & seats 3 comfortably. A large chair sits a foot or two outside of that. In each of the seating positions the SDA effect on my 1C's is very apparent. Obviously, as H9 pointed out, the center couch position is THE PLACE - except I can reach my drink as easily :eek:.

[F1nut]

I always thought if you pulled the sda cable you just chopped your active drivers in half and screwed the pooch....not the case at all.

As did I.......things that make you go, hmmmmmm.

I have tried it without the cable in the past and soundstage just collapses, so I can't see a reason to run them without the cable.

[GV#27]

Carver tried to solve a problem .... and it kinda worked if you had everything set up perfectly, but in my experience the sweet spot was about 2 inches wide. This was my impression when listening to the SHG years ago.Your head essentially had to be in vice to get the correct spatial effect.

[F1nut]

Actually, with the multiple driver sda's you might even end up with a "Cleaner" sound for recordings that have no benefit with an sda effect.


Any stereo recording benefits from SDA speakers. The SDA "effect", as you say, isn't suppose to make the sound come from 20 feet L/R or from behind you, etc. Rather, it is to present a realistic soundstage as if the band was playing in front of you. SDA's properly set up and with some better than average gear will present that soundstage perfectly without sounds coming from weird places 99.5% of the time. Every once in a while you'll get something whacky, but that's got to do with the recording more than the SDA's. You'll detect the whacky placement from the same recording with conventional stereo speakers as well, although it may be to a lesser degree.

Again, I see absolutely no purpose in listening to SDA's without the cable connected. To do so makes them just like all those other "less than" speakers that other people own.

[shack]

I bought my SDA 1Cs...because they were SDAs. If I had wanted something that didn't do what the SDAs provide...I would have bought something else.