Senate shields phone companies from lawsuits re: illegal surveillance of US citizens

[wizzy]

c|net:

"In a setback for privacy and civil liberties groups, the U.S. Senate on Tuesday voted to protect telephone and Internet companies from lawsuits alleging illegal cooperation with government spy agencies."

Basically, about 66.6% of the senate voted to retroactively legalize the illegal warrantless spying on everyone in the US conducted by most all of the major phone companies!

[treitz3]

Good.

[petrym]

The NSA has been doing that in collusion with the telephone companies for decades, it's nothing new.

[m00npie]

Awesome!!!

If you have an issue with it, perhaps you’re doing something you shouldn't be.

[edbert]

I agree moonpie! Do I really care if the government hears me arguing with my wife or talking to my best friend in another state? If they really want to have fun, but it isn't by any means a matter of national security. It's not like at the end of the year they publish a DVD full of the best phone conversations they have listened in on(although that could be very entertaining.)

[wizzy]

If you have an issue with it, perhaps you’re doing something you shouldn't be.

That sounds just like the argument used by Hitler's SS, East Germany's Stasi, the KGB, et al. to justify spying on the citizens of their countries.

[disneyjoe7]

Sounds Great.

[bobman1235]

And anyone with half a brain would just develop code words and use pre-paid cell phones which are immediately thrown away. This accomplishes nothing other than making idiots feel "safer".

I don't particularly care if someone is listening to my conversations in theory, but it's worthless in practice, and taken with everything else the gubmint likes to do brings us one step closer to a 1984 world where not only are we under constant surveillance but eventually controlled.

[nms]

I was about to say something but then I remembered we aren't supposed to talk about politics, so instead I'll just say I don't like warrantless phone tapping. What happened to probable cause?

[jflail2]

Honestly, I don't do anything "wrong", especially on the phone (well except for that Asian transvesite 1-900 line I call twice a week), but I do think there comes a point when privacy should be respected. I pay my taxes, pay my bills, am from a very military family, and love America. Why shouldn't I expect a little privacy in my phone calls, regardless of how inane they are?

The more civil liberties we give up to protect us, the more the terrorists have been able to influence our daily lives. Which sounds like a net loss to me. I'd rather live free and die early, than live to a ripe old age in a hermetically sealed, "safe" version of what America used to be.

Disclaimer: I am not a bleeding heart liberal, and LOVE to see our military kick some ass. My grandfather served, my dad served, and I spent the 1st 15 years of my life growing up on AFB's, so I'm definitely not your prototypical idiotic liberal. I just think we are beginning to toe the line between living safe and truly living free.

[bikezappa]

Wizzy

People on this forum would be more concerned with the lose of our rights if it were about guns or maybe if Hillary gets elected.

Understand if elected she will now be able to use the phone companies to listen to everyone.

What comes around ...........

[dorokusai]

Woohoo!

[shadowofnight]

This is 2008...your employer is watching your EVERY move....you are being monitored in public by thousands of government installed cameras ( On the 101 freeway here I counted over 20 cameras just on my short commute to san jose ) ....patriot act basically gave them carte blanche...new RFID's in your clothes tracking your every move...etc

Basically you better live your public/employment( YES this means internet in your bedroom as well...thats public too ) life like eyes are on you 24/7...do that and you will be fine...forget about that and do illegal actions...you pay the price...simple really.

[BAD ASP]

Maybe there is a little more depth to the story, I offer for your consideration:
There aren't enough people on any agencies payrolls to scrutinize this volume of phone calls. I think they probably react to the red flags of phone calls from U.S. phones to phones linked with some forms of illegal or dangerous activities and or foreigners and governments on terrorist lists.
Phones in use by known felons who are engaged in certain very high profile dealings such as drugs, illegal arms, child pornography to name a few of the more distasteful.

If there is any legitimacy to my speculation then those that are being watched are to protect the rest of us then I am in support.
If the government wants to start listening to all of the phone calls made by all of we Amrericans then that might be what Huxley was talking about but I can't believe that the huge undertaking in the way of manpower and equipment would go on without notice. I think it might be overly paranoid to think that our government has the time and finances to pull this off with all of the scrutiny being applied to capital expenditures.
If the surveillance is being done in more depth on the local level we all would be hearing about busts all over our country... that's not happening either.
FWIW:just my 2c

[bikezappa]

I don't know why I responded to this thread because it's just mental masterbation.

Nothing we do or say here or any place else will make any differnce.

The government has been bought and sold to the large corporations many years ago.

So I will stop my flag waving and go listen to some music which is still legal for now.

[bobman1235]

It's not the act of listening to telephone conversations, which is worthless, it's what it represents - entering into someone's private life without permission either from a judge or from the person.

This was important enough to the founders of this country that it was the FOURTH amendment.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

[treitz3]

It's not like the local police agencies are tapping into your phone. Wizzy's post, if you truly research it only allows the US "spy agencies" to monitor and record phone conversations of "individuals of interest" and "dialog of interest" that would have something to do with National Security.

This information never goes public and is not transferred to any other agency, unless they have a direct bearing on National Security. It's not like they are gonna bust you because you are bangin' your neighbors wife or you are selling a dime of weed or some shit.

I consider this a win for National Security and common sense. I also consider it a loss to the terrorists and other entities that want nothing more to do with us than to take our lives.

[jflail2]

I consider this a win for National Security and common sense. I also consider it a loss to the terrorists and other entities that want nothing more to do with us than to take our lives.

I'll say it again:

The more civil liberties we give up to protect us, the more the terrorists have been able to influence our daily lives. Which sounds like a net loss to me. I'd rather live free and die early, than live to a ripe old age in a hermetically sealed, "safe" version of what America used to be.

[bobman1235]

Meanwhile this same government is systematically taking away all of your rights with regards to firearms, and you're much more likely to need one of thsoe to save your ass than to be killed in a terrorist attack.

[cfrizz]

Well I'm happy to know that you & I will probably live a whole lot longer because these taps managed to take down a terrorist before he/she had a chance to strike!

I would much prefer this kind of a bloodless bust that helps to keep all of us safer, rather than to get a message that one of our active service members here (say Troy) got killed over there or any of the other brave people who are dying over there now!

So let them listen away, I'm not doing or talking about anything that I have to worry about anyone kicking down my door for!


I'll say it again:

The more civil liberties we give up to protect us, the more the terrorists have been able to influence our daily lives. Which sounds like a net loss to me. I'd rather live free and die early, than live to a ripe old age in a hermetically sealed, "safe" version of what America used to be.

[treitz3]

I'll say it again:

The more civil liberties we give up to protect us, the more the terrorists have been able to influence our daily lives. Which sounds like a net loss to me. I'd rather live free and die early, than live to a ripe old age in a hermetically sealed, "safe" version of what America used to be.

"I have nothing to hide, tap away if I am a suspected terrorist. I'll waive a partial right to my privacy in the interest of possibly saving American lives." > quote by treitz3 circa 2008.

I agree that giving up freedoms is a net loss, but personally for me it's worth it to lose the freedom of getting tapped [which can happen illegally without my or your knowledge anyway] to possibly intercept a coded, uncoded message or meeting place that in the end, might possibly save your life.

Oh well, that's my stance, my belief and my opinion. I'm out. I'd rather discuss things that affect the end result as to hits my ears. I.E. music. This crap gets old quick quick because you can never please everybody. Please disregard all posts by me, with the exception of the first one which was in response to Wizzy's post in which I said quite simply, "Good."

Y'all have fun until the thread gets closed.

[shack]

I'll say it again:

The more civil liberties we give up to protect us, the more the terrorists have been able to influence our daily lives. Which sounds like a net loss to me. I'd rather live free and die early, than live to a ripe old age in a hermetically sealed, "safe" version of what America used to be.

You can "kick the bucket" whenever you like. I'll take ripe old age in what ever form presents itself.

[shadowofnight]

Now you know why the 50's are so glamorized...technology can be great....can also be a pain in the ass.

[jflail2]

You can "kick the bucket" whenever you like. I'll take ripe old age in what ever form presents itself.

“Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”

Some dude named Ben Franklin said something along those lines a few years back. Sounded like a mildly intelligent guy...

[shadowofnight]

“Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”

Some dude named Ben Franklin said something along those lines a few years back. Sounded like a mildly intelligent guy...


Sounded like the old fart knew a thing or two :)




" The FBI appears to have begun using a novel form of electronic surveillance in criminal investigations: remotely activating a mobile phone's microphone and using it to eavesdrop on nearby conversations. The eavesdropping technique "functioned whether the phone was powered on or off." Some handsets can't be fully powered down without removing the battery; for instance, some Nokia models will wake up when turned off if an alarm is set. "



" Surreptitious activation of built-in microphones by the FBI has been done before. A 2003 lawsuit revealed that the FBI was able to surreptitiously turn on the built-in microphones in automotive systems like General Motors' OnStar to snoop on passengers' conversations. "

[Polk user]

Wizzy

People on this forum would be more concerned with the lose of our rights if it were about guns or maybe if Hillary gets elected.

Understand if elected she will now be able to use the phone companies to listen to everyone.

What comes around ...........

Everyone??????? There is only one phone she will be listening to and the conversation will go something like this......


" Don't worry babe, Hillary is meeting with the Prime Minister of some 3rd world country so we got all morning. I'll bring the cigars"

[Polk user]

I don't know why I responded to this thread because it's just mental masterbation.

Nothing we do or say here or any place else will make any differnce.

The government has been bought and sold to the large corporations many years ago.

So I will stop my flag waving and go listen to some music which is still legal for now.


That depends on how you downloaded it!!!!!!

[Polk user]

It's not the act of listening to telephone conversations, which is worthless, it's what it represents - entering into someone's private life without permission either from a judge or from the person.

This was important enough to the founders of this country that it was the FOURTH amendment.

The founders also wrote the FIRST amendment:

CONGRESS SHALL MAKE NO LAW RESPECTING AN ESTABLISHMENT OF RELIGION, OR PROHIBITING THE FREE EXERCISE THEREOF; OR ABRIDGING THE FREEDOM OF SPEECH, OR OF THE PRESS; OR THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE PEACEABLY TO ASSEMBLE, AND TO PETITION THE GOVERNMENT FOR A REDRESS OF GRIEVANCES.


But that didn't stop McCain-Feingold from passing FORBIDDING free speech.

[mrbigbluelight]

I would much prefer this kind of a bloodless bust that helps to keep all of us safer, rather than to get a message that one of our active service members here (say Troy) got killed over there or any of the other brave people who are dying over there now!



I would disagree, Cfrizz, in this sense:

If our American servicemen and women are over there to protect our freedoms over here, than haven't we cheated them out of the fruits of their labor by meekly surrendering those rights to the "powers that be" that "know what's good for us" ?

The government used to monitor ALL international calls.
The government now monitors ALL calls. Period. No exceptions.

Welcome to 1984.

[Face]

Welcome to 1984
Still my favorite book of all time. I wish they would have come out with a better movie adaptation.

[bobman1235]

I'm really surprised no one has re-made that movie since the 80's.

[cfrizz]

Then bring them HOME & let them give their lives HERE on OUR soil!

I don't care if the government is listening in to my phone calls I'M NOT DOING ANYTHING WRONG or ILLEGAL!!!

When they try to tell me I can't MAKE calls or TALK on the phone, then I'll worry about it.

So long as I still have the freedom to make the calls, that is all that is what matters. So long as I can say what I want on the phone, that is what is important.

Now if I lose my mind & say I'm going to go to DC & blow up the White House over the phone, I think they would have every right to come in & drag me away & find out WTH is wrong with me!

Those of you who are so paranoid about this stuff need to take yourselves out to some remote part of Alaska & do whatever the hell you want. You'll be far enough away so that you won't know what the Gov. or anyone else is doing & the rest of us can just live our lives as usual!

I would hope you have more important things to worry about!

[PhantomOG]

I'm really surprised no one has re-made that movie since the 80's.

V for Vendetta kinda reminded me of that.

[bikezappa]

V for Vendetta kinda reminded me of that.

That movie reminded you of 1984?

??????????????????????????????

How so, maybe I forgot both movies.

[shack]

“Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”

Some dude named Ben Franklin said something along those lines a few years back. Sounded like a mildly intelligent guy...

I'm giving up NO FREEDOM. I can say what I want...do what I want...go where I want. We are STILL the most FREE nation on the face of the earth. If the government finds a reason to spy because of my activities...they can spy away. My freedom is being protected by dealing with issues that would take my liberty away. If you think Franklin, Washington, etc...and all of the other "revoultionaries" of their time did not use underhanded even "illegal" tactics to obtain what they wanted or felt was necessary...you are sadly mistaken. People take the words of our founding fathers and apply them much broader than they were ever intended. The ones who cry about the tactics of the government trying to protect us are usually the first ones to cry and whine and blame when bad things happen. Why did "THEY" (the government) let this happen...it's all their fault. Let them spy if it keeps us SAFE and FREE!

[bobman1235]

Wow some of you guys really scare me.

"I don't care because I'm not doing anything wrong" is one of the more dangerous attitudes you can have. Ask the Chinese how that worked out for them.

The problem with all of these things is it seems like so many of its supporters are naive enough to think that someone in power is going to do what they say they're going to do. Look around you, how well has that worked out over the past 50 years?

And I think using the words of the founding fathers for this type of thign is the perfect application - they just escaped from under an oppressive regime that carefully took away their rights piece by piece, and they created a government which was unable to do that. It's been 300 years and we're forgetting it all and letting history repeat itself.

[cfrizz]

Outstanding post Shack!!!

[PhantomOG]

That movie reminded you of 1984?

??????????????????????????????

How so, maybe I forgot both movies.

Well, its been a looong time since I read/watched 1984 in grade school so I looked up imdb synopsis for V for Vendetta

...Evey will be chased by the secret police, thinking that she's the accomplice of V, who will accomplish Fawkes' mission of destroying the Parlament on the 5th of November, in this mixture of The Phantom of the Opera, George Orwell's 1984 and Batman.

[cfrizz]

When we become a Communist country like China, then I'll worry about it! But since that is very unlikely to happen I'll worry about more immediate concerns.:rolleyes:

Wow some of you guys really scare me.

"I don't care because I'm not doing anything wrong" is one of the more dangerous attitudes you can have. Ask the Chinese how that worked out for them.

The problem with all of these things is it seems like so many of its supporters are naive enough to think that someone in power is going to do what they say they're going to do. Look around you, how well has that worked out over the past 50 years?

[bobman1235]

That movie reminded you of 1984?

??????????????????????????????

How so, maybe I forgot both movies.

The plot of V for Vendetta wasn't 1984, but the government was a 1984-like government. Spying, oppressive, Big Brother character, etc.

[PhantomOG]

I dunno... I think its hard to see how you could disregard either side of the argument so lightly.

Sure, privacy, slippery slope, Franklin's quote, we're all familiar with the arguments.

However, if an intelligence agency had information about terrorists in the U.S. plotting another 9/11 style attack tomorrow morning, would you want them to be able to tap the necessary phone lines tonight or not?

[Gaara]

Reminds me of "First They Came"

"In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;

And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;

And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;

And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up."

It also reminds me of the frog in boiling water quote from:

"My 9th grade science teacher once told me that if you put a frog in boiling water, it'll jump out but if you put it in cold water and heat it up gradually, it'll just sit there and slowly boil to death. 2. what's that, harry, your recipe for frog soup? 1. that's my recipe for disaster, if we got here today, we'd know we were in hot water and we'd put this town on alert!"

[obieone]

Ya know, I keep seeing PINHEADS like Rosie, and Robert Redford, whining like the spoiled little bitches they are, about losing all these RIGHTS!
Question: WHICH ONES??? Obviously NOT the right to be spoiled little WHINERS!!!
All the far left loons keep saying that this Georges fault!
Guess what: EVEN if Billary or Barack gets elected, they WON'T REVERSE this measure,
because they don't want another 9/11 on THEIR WATCH!!!

[shack]

Reminds me of "First They Came"

"In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;

And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;

And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;

And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up."

It also reminds me of the frog in boiling water quote from:

"My 9th grade science teacher once told me that if you put a frog in boiling water, it'll jump out but if you put it in cold water and heat it up gradually, it'll just sit there and slowly boil to death. 2. what's that, harry, your recipe for frog soup? 1. that's my recipe for disaster, if we got here today, we'd know we were in hot water and we'd put this town on alert!"

We are not talking about persecution by the government of innocent people. We are talking about the government taking the necessary steps to protect the nation as a whole from real and imminent threats. Our enemies don't fight by queensbury rules, genenva convention, or civilized rules of engagement. Extraordinary effort must be used to combat extraordinary threats.

Frogs are stupid. I'm not.

[bobman1235]

I'm not at all left-wing, I'm actually pretty conservative, doesn't mean I'm going to roll over and let the government into my home. In fact, that's why I'm conservative; it used to be that conservatives wanted a smaller, more local government. Where did that go?

[George Grand]

This has deteriorated into the same shit that it always does.

LADIES, one of the big rules here is no talking politics. No talking religion, and hang on, I think you're not supposed to talk guns.

So let this little piece of shit die the death it deserves.

If you got a problem either way with the government's recent ruling, write your freakin' congressman.