Wire in general/some tips.

[mantis]

Iv'e been reading alot of questions about wire.So I figured I'd make a general comment of my opnion about wire and why.

When thinking of wire for your system,I think having some kind of system is a good place to start.Alot of people including myself,wonder what wire is right for my system.

I have talked to alot of people about this,tested alot of wire myself and here's where I stand on this matter.......but could change tomarrow if better knowledge is found.......
20% of the total cost of your entire system should be a good place to start.It will get you into a level of cables that should complement your system.I was given that number by 2 different wire companies,and it seems to put the given built system right at a level that seems to work.
Now this isn't a fact,it's just what I have found.Try it if you like.

Alot of people don't want to invest alot of money in cables,or don't have the money 2 do so.But if you construct a system that screams with performance abilities,I believe all system levels deserve good wires at there respected class,wouldn't you want to take advantage of everything it has to offer?

There are alot of wire companies out there.Alot I haven't tested myself and would like 2.

[TroyD]

I bet even the DQ-10's can be better than they already are if you put MIT or Transparent or hell even Monster than you will be real dumb and maybe they can take out Krell LAT-1's or even the Dynaudio Evidence Temptations but you won't know until you try

Huh?

My thoughts are this:

I do think wire makes a difference. However, the difference in inexpensive wire is somewhere between subtle and non-existent.

Who says that 20 percent on wire is appropriate? The wire companies, that's who. Why? because it puts more money in their pocket. I'm not saying it is or isn't appropriate, but I'd take anything a salesman says with a grain of salt.

As far as the DQ's go, I've never said they are the best or that my rig couldn't be better. Why don't we just let that one go. If/when I want or need advice on what or how to improve it, you can be sure that I will ask. I'm touched at the concern though

BDT

[PETERNG]

I took me a longtime, I mean a very longtime before I finally upgrade all of my wirings for my system (speaker cable, bi-wire, inter-connect) and also add on the filtering-system(plus surge protector) to block out all the interfering noises. I would say that it work well for me with all the money that I invested in this project. Sound was clear like crystal, more dynamic, picture is clear and beautiful. I can hear some of the sound in the same sound track that I haven't hear before (I can run a vaccum cleaner right on front of my TV and not thing will affect the picture). To me all of these things carry about 30% weight of my system and I happy with the changes that I made. I'm not sure it will work for everyone plus how serious you are when you're thinking about making improvement for your system when there are no certain facts but costs involve. When it comes to wiring issues or subjects, I don't think this forum can offer anymore tips than what we already had in our collection library. If Micah is kind enough to move all of the biring threads (posts) in to one folder (category), it may be helpful for those folks who seeking for these information. Here are the lists of my up-grade wiring:

Monster cable M series, F1 and F3 speakers cable
Monster cable M-video cable(component and S-video)
Monster cable reference 2 audio-inter-connect
Monster cable coax and optical digital cable
Monster cable for antenna connection
Monster cable HTS-5000 and HTS 1000

I plan to order the new HTS 7000 for the living room this christmas (since I can get it for 60% off), move the HTS 5000 into the bedroom and the HTS1000 over the breakfast area. I can tell you this, the HTS device works wonderful and very effective. After I do this, the bucks stop right here.

[mantis]

Who says that 20 percent on wire is appropriate? The wire companies, that's who. Why? because it puts more money in their pocket. I'm not saying it is or isn't appropriate, but I'd take anything a salesman says with a grain of salt.

Yes the wire companies did come up with that for a level of system to wire level ratio.It works most of the time, but you need to be the final word in what goes into your sytem.

Troy,
why don't you add your thoughts on how and why to buy WHAT wire?I didn't read anything in your post that seems usefull.
I'm not in no way the be all end all of wire,I ask the questions to get some feedback,to help me understand this entire maddness alittle better.No need to insults salespeople in the process.I'm not one of them but hell they need to make a living like the rest of us.

So I ask you personally..........what wire do you own and why?

[PETERNG]

Originally posted by mantis


Yes the wire companies did come up with that for a level of system to wire level ratio.It works most of the time, but you need to be the final word in what goes into your sytem.



You paid for what you got, just make sure you're beware of what you're paying for, find down and read the facts about why you have to pay more for that product and is that worth it to pay more?, the final word is: there is no free lunch. I like what he said here...:)

[TroyD]

Dan,

I'm not knocking your theory and if it works for you fine. I'm just saying, 20 percent is an arbitrary number and it's a gross oversimplification. That's my opinion, however.

As for what I own, I have Monster XP, AR, Home Depot, Rat shack, cheap AudioQuest and Straightwire. The differences between them all are fairly subtle. I'm not saying they are all the same, but they differences are subtle.

I do have a question, though, how long do folks find it takes for wire to oxidize? Reason I ask is, I've yet to see it. I was hanging Christmas lights yestereday and for fun, I checked the bare wire running into my outdoor speakers, I've had them up there for 3 years and still no oxidation.

BDT

[mantis]

TroyD,
your opnion is noted.As for as the wire goes(home Depot)I got some off a job that had 12 x 2.I tested it against my M1.4s bi wires and the result was that the home depot wire sounded sick.I have that wire sitting on my back porch and guess what?It's already starting to turn green.Oxidation happens quick with Home Depot wire.I also did a job where a electrican ran home depot wire 18 x 2 for multiroom speakers and all of it was green.

Monstercable wire along with alot of other brands do a better job keeping oxidation out.Terminating the ends of your wire also helps.Bare wire is the worse way,outdoor wires..are getting it the worse.I lkike to terminate outdoor wires and shrink wrap whenever possible.

[Dr. Spec]

"However, the difference in inexpensive wire is somewhere between subtle and non-existent."

TroyD - the ultimate reality check on Club Polk - thank you, God. This opinion (for speaker wire only, not interconnects) has been substantiated many times with double blind tests. I can find probably 5 articles on the subject - all with the same results. Even the most discriminating listeners were astonished to discover that they cannot tell the difference between even lamp cord and the most expensive speaker wire out there - all on very high end gear. Some of them even preferred the lamp cord over the upscale stuff. The subject has been talked to DEATH over at HTF.

Re: oxidation - Mantis has a point; I use those cool Monster screw-together banana plugs on all my speaker wire terminations to help prevent oxidation. I think this is better than a bare wire termination.

Doc

[TroyD]

I was curious about the oxidation, my outdoor speaks are wired using Home Depot wire with just bare wire connenctions and I was amazed really that it hadn't oxidized.

BDT

[HBombToo]

I agree with Troy and Doc on this matter. As long as the run is not to long for the guage the sonic deltas are not very audible.

Connections and the prevention of oxidation are important and should always be considered. A bad connection will have a resistace associated with it and should be minimized.

As far as digital interconnects are concerned, there are impedance concerns and the right cable for the job should be observed but that does not cost a thousand dollars.

Just my thoughts...

HBomb

[MxStYlEpOlKmAn]

ight...if i got dis right -- oxidation is when the wire turns green! SO THATS Y THE TIPS OF MY WIRES ARE EFFIN GREEN! OHHHHHH!!! lol! ok! Well, im going to sovle that, Im gonna get 12 guage HD wire, but gold plated pin connectors on each end...and just laugh at it all! lol! or I might get monster cable! but i highly doubt it...but atleast I learned one thing! I now know what oxidation is...LOL!

[gidrah]

My Monster Cable Superflex has turned a lovely shade of green. Right in the middle. Time to chop it up and use to re-wire some woofers.

[PETERNG]

Originally posted by gidrah
My Monster Cable Superflex has turned a lovely shade of green. Right in the middle. Time to chop it up and use to re-wire some woofers.

No need my friend, MC has the lifetime guarrantee on their speaker cable products, check their website and find down how you can send it back for replacement free of charge.

[Zero]

I have found speaker wire to make a different, but as TroyD mentioned, it was incredible subtle.

I honestly feel that certain wires, on certain systems, make certain improvements.

Whether or not those improvements meet your fancy and justify their price tag - is another thing.

[MxStYlEpOlKmAn]

well heres what I think - Would I pay 100 dollars for 50 feet of monster 16 guage, and get little change when I can pay 9 bucks for HD wire with very little difference?

[Zero]

Dont tell anyone Mxsty,

But I did a A vs b vs c comparison between your monster xp wire, lamp cord, and home depote wire.

The result? No friggen difference that I could hear. In fact I prefered the cheap 24 gauge lampcord because it was easier to work with and just a single solid strand.

[MxStYlEpOlKmAn]

yeah, when i was looking for a ht system...I asked my dad that has 10 guage monster cable on his system, i asked him the difference. He said there is a difference, but you cant hear it. I'm like then heck ill just get the HD!

[Zero]

When you get more money, I would check into "higher end" cables and see what you think about them. Just for the hell of it.

[MxStYlEpOlKmAn]

well of course, maybe Bill Gates will lend me some mooooo la! LOL! Until then, HD it is!

[Zero]

Or if you happen across a place that carries that expensive wire and is willing to let you demo it at their place - the better :)

Just bring your home depote wire along for a comparison
hahah :D

[RuSsMaN]

It's called an 'opinion' Mark, learn to accept that other peoples (opinions) may differ from yours.

I like what I consider high-end wire. $200 a pair and DOWN, just to throw out a number. Speaking of speaker wire only here, I think if one did hear a difference in most rigs, it would probably be subtle.

Yes, quite a few us here have done wire 'shootouts' as you call it, and I like and own some higher end cables, but I've also been hard pressed to hear a difference in some scenarios. Different amps, different preamps, different sources, different master recordings, rooms, etc etc. The variables are near infinate, as to why someone may, or may not hear a 'difference' between any two given cables.

The issue I have is for someone to tell me what makes one basic, OFC insulated cable different from another. I'll take your (anyone, not pointing my finger) word for it sure, but whats the science behind it? Why does it sound better? We are dealing with very low voltage, which one could see as easy to accommodate (requiring minimal expenditure), or one could say should be handled with extra care (requiring a greater expenditure).

Now what you and I consider 'high end' I'm sure differs. As far as I'm concerned, their isn't a home rig in the world that NEEDS $2500 speaker cables.
(imo)

Cheers,
Russ

[mantis]

Russ,

Now what you and I consider 'high end' I'm sure differs. As far as I'm concerned, their isn't a home rig in the world that NEEDS $2500 speaker cables.

OK I get what your saying but I have a question.
If I owned Krell Master Reference mono amps
Dynaudio Evidence Masters
Krell Reference cd palyer

What would you consider 2 use?

[Frank Z]

Wire is as Wire does! As long the resistance is low enough to allow the siganl to pass without degrading it, that is all that is needed. No more, no less. Any wire that meets this criteria is adequate, as long as it does not degrade as a result of impurities or environmental conditions. If paying a huge amount of money to get a warm and fuzzy feeling all over is "your thing," fine! If you know any thing at all about basic electricity you will quickly discover that High-end cables/wires area a high end rip-off, no more, no less!

Feel free to disagree.

[RuSsMaN]

Heck, start with MIT Term 2, Kimber 8TC, Audioquest Bedrock and maybe work up to Audioquest Gibraltar, Cardas Cross, Straightwire Rhapsody if you want to spend *more* money.

There's all kinds of names I could throw out, but for me it goes back to the theory of diminishing returns.

Of course, some 0 awg car audio power cable at a couple bucks a foot might fit just right. ;)

Cheers,
Russ

[Zero]

Im not in a good mood at the moment, so I will spare all the polite **** and considerations..

First off? Not giving wire the respect it deserves? oh ****ing wa...

Here is a torch under the ass, next to a/v fornature, I find wire to be the most over-priced accessory in the world of audio.

Let me be quite frank, most of us here at these boards do not own rigs that go over 10k. I am sure you have installed systems to where 10k is just the cost of the CD player. Well Im afraid in these neck of the woods that cash, simply is not around. Not to mention, some of us have other priorities...

Matching IMHO, is what it is all about. I could hear no difference between home depote wire and monster xp on ANY system. I could only tell the difference between the MIT and Z2 wires on *good* speakers, not cheap ones.

The same applies for Interconnects. Using my Mintek dvd player, there is NO sonic difference between the Monster Reference 2 and the Radio shack cables. But there was a very slight, slight, difference with the AMC CD6.

As Russ mentioned, there are so many damn variables its hard to generalize wire and apply its use to every rig. Sorry bud, it just DOES NOT work that way - period.

If you like it, fine.! If you hear the differences! More power to ya! If you got the money! Even better!

But if someone does not agree / feel the same way / or be it whatever it may - just live with it.

[RuSsMaN]

Hey numbnuts (since we have regressed back to name calling AGAIN), he mentioned his Mintek, and a AMC CD6 (a nice player). More importantly, he mentioned his OPINION.

Why should we acknowledge your opinion? You have shown yourself as self-proclaimed expert, and won't discuss ANYTHING in a civil tone.

Please cut the 'holier than thou bull****' out. It certainly does not help to validate YOUR opinion. Please tell me you aren't making public threats too, are you?

-R

[phuz]

Lets not get into this again. liv4fam ATC didn't go there, you didn't have to.

Take a chill pill, or drink a glass of wine or something. Don't start this kindergarten crap again please.

[Frank Z]

HMMM......Philly......The City of Brotherly Love......NOT!!

[MxStYlEpOlKmAn]

LoL! Yall guys remind me of My 3 and 4 year old cousins! LOL! Heres what I think, and I think some of you guys need a reality check! LIFE IS NOT AUDIO! LIFE IS NOT POSESSIONS OR GIFTS! LIFE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT! Y IN JESUS NAME CANT U JUST ACCEPT SOMEONE ELSE'S EARS AND OPINION? I MEAN PEOPLE CANT JUST GO OUT AND SPEND 1k on speaker wire! IT JUST AINT GONNA HAPPEN! IF ALL THEY CAN AFFORD IS HD or some other cheap stuff! THEN SOOOOOO BE IT! WHY DO U CARE? YOU DONT HAVE TO HEAR IT EVERYDAY! ITS NOT YOUR LIFE! I understand it is your job to install audio and stuff, wiring and stuff, make a recomendation - DONT SHOVE IT DOWN PEOPLES THROATS! ight i said what I thought, now let the blood shattering begin...ill get the bell and whistle!

[Zero]

*takes out a belt* young man you better watch who your raising your tone to! haha jk

Liv, this has been discussed in another area , therefore a reply will not be given.

[MxStYlEpOlKmAn]

I truly dont care if I was 4 years old. It is rediculous to keep reading this, Heck i like reading/posting here. But this gets pretty stupid after a while.

[liv4fam]

I agree this is pretty childish.

Geeeeeessssshhhh.......Let it go it's only wire.


Can't anybody have an opinion.:lol:

[RuSsMaN]

Now the post makes NO sense.

[liv4fam]

Man I had Arby's for lunch and I think I am gonna hurl.

They need to go out of business.

Mantis I think tommorrow we are doing HOOTERS.:)

[liv4fam]

What makes no sense?;)

[mantis]

Hooters?????????all ****in day..yeah that Arbys wasn;t up to speed...

[mantis]

Damn I leave for awhile and all this maddness goes on.Can't we all just talk about our feelings on wire?I feel my wires all the time.And they feel me.

[liv4fam]

I do not share my partners sentiments on that post he is out of his mind.

I don't nor have I ever FELT my wires nor did they FEEL me in anyway way.

Somebody call 911................I think we have an emergency.

waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa:lol:

[mantis]

O but there so nice........I wanna touch em.

[mantis]

Russ,

Now the post makes NO sense
Thats just what happens.........everytime.I tried really I did.

[F1nut]

Are those your "Bi" wires?

[liv4fam]

Well there you have it.

Let me change my signature. It is no longer my life, I am done.

Wire=Sex

Nope

[F1nut]

liv,

that's not for you, it's a joke between Dan and myself.

[mantis]

I'm gonna change my sig 2.

F1nut.........they are Transparent..but hell I got BI wires 2 so Russ,Troy,Liv4fam and myself all get a conductor.........

[mantis]

One big happy BI wired family.........I love those guys......

[liv4fam]

Sorry nut,

I didn't know.

[liv4fam]

Why didn't nut get a conductor?

[F1nut]

Hmmmm...ok.

To get back on the subject, I'm of the opinion that wires do make a difference. I think that the better ones gear is the more difference it makes.

[mantis]

he's at the amp side

[F1nut]

Yeah, why?

[mantis]

Bi wiring us

[F1nut]

With my mono block!

[mantis]

F1nut,

To get back on the subject, I'm of the opinion that wires do make a difference. I think that the better ones gear is the more difference it makes.
I call this Mantis Theory.......will be in my book,when it's finished:lol:

[liv4fam]

Alright I am out SGAF...................................You be BI.........amped.................................. BI...................wired.


Allday don't forget to scrub.:o

[F1nut]

Why, thank you! Remember to send me a royalty check.

[mantis]

But I'm powered so I can't do it?

[mantis]

well that was fun F1

[F1nut]

BTW, NEVER and I mean NEVER eat at Arbys....

[F1nut]

Yes it was....night.

[mantis]

unles you want to puke.............just don't side step the bowl.

[mantis]

Later Nut

[F1nut]

:lol:

[mantis]

well get back on topic later on this morning.if I can get the hell out of bed.....**** it's late

[liv4fam]

Is it over?

[mantis]

Damn.............it's never over

[MxStYlEpOlKmAn]

LOL! am I the vioce of reason or sumthin? :lol: jk..nice to see yall are gettin along!

[F1nut]

or SOMETHING ;)

[MxStYlEpOlKmAn]

1 day muh broda, i might get down wit dis english talk biz u be talkin about, but right now my broda, im down wit da wiger language! lol! jk!

[F1nut]

MX,

Hmmm.....ok, but it's wigger. IMHO, it's nothing to be proud of!!! It will not take you anywhere you want to go in life.

Cheers,
F1nut

[MxStYlEpOlKmAn]

You know, your probally right! LOL! I really, do not talk like that! So don't worry over me...*sigh*, i think I need to stop listening to eminem...

[F1nut]

MX,

Whew.....I'm glad!

Me worry? Nah, just check out my "Why Worry" thread. ;)

F1nut

[TroyD]

Huh? Did I miss something?

BDT

[RuSsMaN]

A rant *corrected* itself last night, a post is missing, just let it go.

[mantis]

Yeah Troy You missed out on that one.

[TroyD]

Just curious, I couldn't figure out if something was missing or I was just dense. Either of which being a distinct possibility usually the case being the later than the former.

BDT

[mantis]

I'll tell you this Troy.........it has your flavor.And Missing of of it as well.........where the hell where you when we needed you bro??

[TroyD]

Shoot, when liv4fam is on a tear, you don't need me. He can make himself look like an idiot just fine all by himself.

BDT

[HBombToo]

WOW! This all happened last night?

Nuts!

I'm just tellen ya;)

[rlw]

OK, here's my take on the whole wire thing, and before you get PO'd, remember that it's just my opinion.

If you're using a receiver, any receiver, in your system, don't waste any money on fancy wire. The only difference you'll ever hear is in your mind. Save your coin for higher quality electronics.

If you have low-end separates - and I'm sorry, I don't mean to offend anybody with this - then don't waste your money on wire. You might hear a difference - but that difference might be in your head. Save the scratch to get better quality sources and electronics.

If you haven't taken room acoustics into consideration, and dealt with the profound effects your room has on your speakers, don't waste your money on wire. Room treatments, speaker placement, and even room reinforcement will yield much larger improvements than wire.

If you haven't upgraded your AC mains to be a dedicated circuit or two, don't waste your money on wire. You'll get a huge bang for the buck in supplying your gear with clean AC power.

If you haven't taken vibration control into consideration, and dealt with insuring that at least your source components are isolated from vibration, don't waste your money on wire.

If you have high-quality separates, if you have addressed the room-speaker interface, if you have upgraded AC mains, if you have addressed vibration control - then, wire can make a big difference in your system.

In a given system, it might be speaker cable or interconnects which make the biggest difference. It might even be power cords.

In my 2-channel system, every person I've had listen can hear, and describe in the same terms, the differences between wire. It's not subtle.

I have a nice repeatable test for non-believers: since the system is current-hungry, I'll move everything over to one circuit. At a certain volume, playing LP's, the phono stage shuts down b/c it's not getting enough juice with big bass.

If I swap phono cables between a cable that has good bass response, and a cable that has poor bass response, the volume level at which the shutdown occurs changes. It's repeatable, predictable, measurable, and the only change is the phono cable.

As far as budget goes: I think 20% of budget is a number some sales/marketing type pulled out of their Excel-ass to figure out how to insure that retailers maintain an overall profit level to stay in business - a retailer can't sell everything at 5-10% over cost and stick around. Wire, with a markup of 100% or greater, offsets the mass-market electronics sold at little or no margin.

I have no problem spending whatever it takes to get a significant upgrade - to my ears. I even - much to my surprise - hear quite a difference in power cords in the 2 channel system.

In my HT system, wire doesn't make any difference at all. I've put exensive wire in for kicks: it sounds the same as cheap wire. Why bother?

[HBombToo]

NOW that was well said rlw!

HBomb

[TroyD]

Absolutely. Well said!

I think that with the rigs that most of us are running, certainly in my case. The money to that I could theoretically spend on wire could be spent better elsewhere.

It is my opinion that mid-fi products, Carver, NAD, B&K, Rotel so on and so forth, are designed to be sort of jack of all trades yet master of none. Mote, I'm not saying it's bad gear but it is what it is. Now your HIGH-end gear, different story, I think it is designed to be more sensitive to subtle differences.

BDT

[TroyD]

rlw,

Would you mind giving us a rundown of your gear and some things you've done as far as room treatments, etc. ?

anyone but me think rlw sounds an awful lot like Bob McG?

BDT

[HBombToo]

who is Bob McG?

an equipment list would be excellent.

HBomb

[TroyD]

Bob McGowan was a forum regular. I though Bob was very intelligent, lot of common sense and would not hesitate to call it as he saw it. Great guy and a true SDA fanatic.

BDT

[mantis]

Bob used to post around here along time ago...before your time......

r/w,
your points/opnion is noted.But I disagree with some of it.

Power and room acoustics are big part of your overall sound.Cords,conditioners stablizers....allday.
Placement is another way to improve your sound.Theater or 2 channel,it doesn't matter.

Wire I feel also adds to the list of overall improvement.I think it's up 2 the one spending the money if it's worth the small,medium or large gain they get when swapping out wire.I have heard alot of different wires on my personal system.I find one brand to be superior to all others in everyway(for audio)That would be Transparent.There ability to retain all the sound is amazing.I truely believe that matching the correct wire with the system is good thinking...Hell thats all I talk about mostly.
But I have to disagree with your logic with receivers and low end seperates.Good wire isn't just for high end systems.It benifits all levels.Some more then others.
I think the point of this is overall benefit of ones soundquality.Alot of guys choose to go down the road of adding amps to receivers.To them it improves there sound quality,maybe they are looking for louder,I've read that along my travels in here.But every last thing possible to improve your rig shouldn't be dismissed.
I ask the million dollar question.........How Important is the sound of your rig?What distance will you go to improve what you already own and when is it time for a change?

I have asked myself these questions time and time again.I was receiver and RT line not long ago.Now I feel Lsi and seperates are the way.Along with good wire.I tried the tipical Home Depot wire on my current rig and it was a desaster in compare to my current speaker wires.Very noticable.

Alot of you think I'm crazy.......nieve......an ass.....or whatever.truth is I'd love not to spend so much time/money into wire...it's effin wire.But when you hear things with one wire over another,I don't see any logic in clouding up your system.

[Dr. Spec]

Mantis, that previous post was your most lucid and well written yet. You made your arguments very well, and placed everything into perspective and ranking - excellent work - very impressive.

Doc

[mantis]

Thanks Doc,
Glad you enjoyed the read.

[rlw]

Originally posted by TroyD
rlw,

Would you mind giving us a rundown of your gear and some things you've done as far as room treatments, etc. ?

anyone but me think rlw sounds an awful lot like Bob McG?

BDT

Well, I was going to ask who the heck Bob McG was, but that's been answered.

I listed current 2 channel gear over in the 2 channel thread here (http://clubpolk.polkaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3898&pagenumber=2) , so I won't bore you again.

Current HT: 2 pairs of SRT's, a 350 center channel. Denon 5600 receiver; Marantz MA-700 on the center, and a Krell KAV-150a on the fronts. Mits 6000 DVD player, and a Pioneer 700(?) LD player, and DirectTV satellite w/ 2 dishes for HD. Mits 65" widescreen.

We also just moved in June, so I'm going through setup all over again - but it's great.

Back in the old house, I had a room [see attached diagram] that I got to play with a lot. I set it up a couple of different ways: first was a LEDE [Live End Dead End]; second was a 2C3D [MIT/ASC's 2 channel - 3 dimensional spec]; finally I settled in on a 2C3D scheme with some additional sonic treatment to make the front portion a bit less lively.

I ended up with about 50 panels of Sonex, as well as all the indicated Tube Traps. I used both a pair of SRT's, as well as the ML Prodigies in that room - not at the same time.

That room was very predictable - I could easily change the depth of the soundstage by moving just a few acoustic treatments. The more heavily treated front wall had the effect of putting your gear under a microscope.

You'd think that adding all the tubetraps would soak up bass, right? Uh-huh. Actually has the opposite effect - since it eliminates standing waves, it cleans up what is there, and restores quite a bit of impact.

Most of what I did was trial and error, but I also spent quite a bit of time talking with various folks from ASC, as well as the head cheese there, Art Noxon. Paul DiComo, Ken Swauger, and Tony from Polk all made contributions, including custom modifying an SRT x-over so that I could bypass the internal amps. I posted a pic from that room some time ago.

The HT in the old place was in the great room; big virtue of that room was it was large, flowed into other rooms, and could pretty much take all the bass you could throw at it, and you standing waves weren't an issue. I don't have a diagram of that room - sorry. I didn't do much to treat that room - just hung a lot [24] of velvel curtains to tame down the glass. I had SRT's and 3000p's in there, and also tossed in a Sunfire True Sub for a bit more arse-tickle. The downside of that room was that a large fireplace destroyed any hope of a soundstage, and my wife wouldn't let me tear it out.

In both those rooms, I spent way too much time with a calibrated mic and a 1/3 octave spectrum analyzer listening to broadband pink noise, burst tones, and warble tones. One big thing I learned was that the flattest frequency response doesn't necessarily sound the best.

OK - current digs. My wife and I looked at over 50 houses before finding one with a room that met my needs for a 2 channel room. Cathredal ceiling, running from 8' on the sides to 15' center, very symmetrical and predictable. Ceiling is all unfinished cedar - even the big beams holding it all together. High enough that vertical reflections don't matter. Nice, open, lively sound.

One side of the room is all glass - ouch, but that's ok - and the other side opens onto the kitchen and dining room. Great for making sure that standing waves don't develop.

The big downside is a loft area over the kitchen, but 10 tubetraps lined up along the front tamed that echo-chamber down.

I've used both a short-wall and long-wall setup [actually, I rotated the system the whole way around the room to find the best spot], and settled in on a long-wall setup. 4 casement windows on the front wall are tamed down by some velvet drapes, and their high quality windows, so they don't rattle. Speakers are approximately 56" from the front wall.

A pair of half-round tubetraps behind the listening position, mounted about 7' up and running the length of the wall, EchoBuster Corner Flags in the four corners, and tubetraps behind the Prodigies are all the treatment I'm using for now. I've been playing around with different configurations, and so far this sounds the best. I have tried half-rounds on the front wall, and big cube traps in the corners. The front-wall experiment destroyed soundstage depth; tube traps in the corners dulled the bass a little bit.

Imaging is not quite as "wraparound" as in my other room, but the soundstage itself is deeper. Timbre and dynamics are much better.

Interestingly enough, bass response was quite thin until I put a big leather couch at the listening position, about 43" from the back wall. It's kind of funny - you pull this couch out of the room, put a chair at the listening position, and the bass is all gone. Put the couch back, and the bass comes back. I'm still trying to understand that one.

Oh, while I haven't diagrammed the setup yet, I am to the point of moving the listening position and speakers a 1/4" at a time. The biggest change comes in the bass with these moves.

Once again, sorry for babbling, hope that begins to answer your question.

[TroyD]

***mouth agape****

[RuSsMaN]

Same here man, I read that post 2 hrs ago, I got nothin'.

Any chance we can have an 'RLW' section of the forum?

Cheers,
Rooster

I do agree with what you said on what I call 'second order' reflections. In my intimate (sounds better than 'small') mancave, dampening behind the gear plays the biggest role for me. Immediate, noticeable improvement. My biggest 'echo' killer, even if just hanging a drape or throw on the wall.

[mantis]

r/w,
Prodigy's huh......nice.One of my personal favorites.I plan on owning them one day...........
Audio Research and Transparent mates extremelt well.So does Krell.
Anyways,
I read your post and saw the problem(if it really is one) about the couch when moved away from the wall.With a guess I'm gonna assume your putting it in a peak in cutting down responce.Most likely more mid bass then low bass,Leather couches are good for absorbing energy.But as you probably know,low bass is very hard to cut.

You could be creating a boundry of some sort with the movement.Anyways I really need to attend THX for better understanding of Room Acoustics.I did attend a cedia course with John Dahl from THX,he blew me right out of my chair.The passion he has for what is does is deep.It was a pleasure to meet him,study from him.I wanna continue my understanding of room acoustic's.Much to learn I have.

Dude ...LOL.Buying a house based around aduio is exactly why it took me over 3 years to buy a house.I found this builder and away we went.My basement has 9 foot ceilings and man I can't wait to start construction on the Theater room.I will be using it for double duty 2 channel and HT.

[TroyD]

Dan,

No offense, but give the man his props. I'm thinking you might be a little out of your depth there. Just an observation.

Kinda like a driver's education teacher giving driving tips to Richard Petty.

BDT

[mantis]

Troy,

No offense, but give the man his props. I'm thinking you might be a little out of your depth there. Just an observation
didn't take any away from him.He has done alot to his room,was thinking when he was typing,I noticed it and replied.I'm not the be all end all in room acoustic's,I thought I said that in my post where I'd like to continue my education.I was just trying to help a brother out.........

Kinda like a driver's education teacher giving driving tips to Richard Petty.
But you always feel the need to try to discredit me.I try man.

[TroyD]

I was just hacking on you Dan.

I'm certainly not trying to discredit you, however I though it was kinda funny. Your post had a condescending tone (which I'm sure was unintentional) that made me throw out that analogy.

BDT

[audionutt]

lennon and mccartny,stanley and simmons,dean and jerry, and troy and mantis.

joe

[mantis]

Troy,

I'm certainly not trying to discredit you, however I though it was kinda funny. Your post had a condescending tone (which I'm sure was unintentional) that made me throw out that analogy.
You misunderstand me,I misunderstand you.....thats just the way it goes I guess.No problem Bud,thats just what you do,I can except you for who you are.;) I can ,can you?:D

[rlw]

Originally posted by RuSsMaN

I do agree with what you said on what I call 'second order' reflections. In my intimate (sounds better than 'small') mancave, dampening behind the gear plays the biggest role for me. Immediate, noticeable improvement. My biggest 'echo' killer, even if just hanging a drape or throw on the wall.

What I think is fun to do [yes, I need to get out more often] is to take a piece or two of Sonex or Auralex, and play around with moving them around your listening room. Find out where they give you the biggest bang - that might be behind your gear, behind the listening position, catching the first reflections at the sidewalls, even catching the first reflection point on the ceiling.

You can buy a couple pieces of Auralex at Sam Ash's or Guitar Centers, I'm sure elsewhere, for $10 or less. Then, if you decide you like the change it makes, you can frame each piece in something as cheap as lath. Looks like some wacky wall sculpture that way. You get the benefits of a broader spectrum product, and it sill looks ok.

The theory is pretty simple: take a given sonic event. The brain perceives everything that happens within a certain time as being part of that event. So, if the sound coming from the speakers, and room reflections from that sound hitting your ears/brain at close enough intervals, the sonic event you hear is your speakers plus the room.

That can be bad: reflections kill the soundstage and imaging. Eliminate the worst of the reflections, and your soundstage comes to life. However, reflections do increase the "intelligibility" of speech, and vocals. If you "kill" all reflections in a room, that's why it sounds lifeless and dead.

[gidrah]

Thanks Pete. I'll have to look into that.

[Tour2ma]

How about we get the Webmaster to set a “ Room Acoustics” Forum category in the Advanced Technical Issues area? Vibration isolation is another point RLW raises that is often overlooked.

Had I not waded through all the Bickersons and Stoner posts I never would have gotten to this interesting stuff… especially in a thread that starts off debating the benefits of wire (before it passes through the raging Arby’s vs. Hooters controversy)… Actually had some thoughts on wire that I posted and deleted three times because I thought I was somehow jumping to the wrong thread when I posted them… It was really clever, but think I’ll just sit on it now and instead offer the following “in-a-nutshell” reply:

I think, as Frank mentioned early on, resistance is the key and this is supported by RLW’s experience with his phono connects… after all we are talking milli-volts here. As you move down the system chain and signal power increases, the result will be less dramatic. All the way to Dr. Spec’s double-blind test references, which he qualifies as applying only to speaker cables… the high voltage end of the line.

Personally I have one pair of Tara Labs between my B&K AVP (not a Ref 50…..yet) and my Carver M1.5t and want to believe I heard a difference after spending over $150 on them. But I also use 12 gauge “lamp cord” (yes, I got the spool at Home Depot) for my bi-wire run from my Carver to my SDA SRS’s, which are in separate rooms from all my equipment to minimize, if not eliminate, the vibration issues. The trade-off is a 30+’ wire run. Maybe I should quad-wire….

One other tid-bit before I wrap up is on the oxidation issue touched upon in the thread. This is critical at the connectors, but not on the surface of mid-wire runs (as someone alluded to in their Monster cables). Electrons run through the center of wire, not on the surface, and oxidation penetration of formed wire is minimal. Most ultra-low O2 wire manufactured is drawn and quenched in an inerted atmosphere (CO2 or N2, argon if they’re really fancy), but O2 exposed quenching only results in surface ox. To battle ox I trim the ends off of my speaker runs every few months (emotionally easier to do with lamp cord than high-end wire) when I go through my connections and twist/ break-make them to clean them up.

My general philosophy is similar to others in this thread, spend on equipment first and wire down the line. But other than heavy drapes over windows, I’ve not given enough attention to room acoustics.

Which brings me back to where I started…

Sorry if I am not senior enough yet to POLK some fun at some of the vets...

[infinitiqx4]

UP TO THE TOP! rlw=awesome posts

This thread should stay at the top forever. Any and all wiring posts from newbies should be required to read this. First some bickering. Then, some Hooters. Then some perspective on importance.

If I spent $5k on a setup I wouldn't dream of spending $1k on wires! 20%? That's just nuts for most of our "mid-fi" setups*. I'd rather spend $4k on components and put the rest towards INSTALL. No, I don't mean paying some idiots to wire it up and leave. I mean doing room acoustics, tuning, etc.

*I seem to remember reading "mid-fi" during this long thread. Interesting term. Puts things in perspective with the REALLY crazy systems. But I still feel that "hi-fi" is appropriate for a system costing a few K if done right.

I've always felt that the oxidation part is important for those of us not spending 20%. There is a difference between really cheap speaker wire and decent oxygen-free speaker wire with thick gauge.

Whoever commented on speaker wire usually being less important than RCA/interconnects- right on! Good shielded interconnects can reduce noise where there is a problem. Of course the cheapest (and best) way to improve the sound is to install the system correctly in the first place avoiding noise sources. I'm sure you guys have seen systems here with horribly expensive wires where the interconnects are neatly wired parallel with AC power wire! WOW. again, w o w.

[nellis8166]

Well, here is my take on the whole wire issue. In my case it made a huge difference. I recently added an Adcom GFA7400 to run my mains and center. I tried to get away with using Home Depot wire and Ratshack interconnects....one word....horrible....sounded like $hit. I went to my local hi-fi store and had him make me some cables. Now I have Monster M Series Bi-wire replacing the home depot wire. Also invested in Monster interconnects, can't remember the model, but they were 50 bucks and supposedly the best bang for your buck. I took my time yesterday and wired everything up right. My mains are bi-amped and the center is on the 5th channed bi-wired.
The difference is astounding....I was speechless when I tested everything last night. I listened to Dark Side of the Moon. The clarity and imaging are much improved as well as bass response. No comparison what so ever.
Should have done it right the first time. I keep telling myself that cutting corners will only result in more work in the end. Should have done it right the first time. I'll learn.

Regards,
Nat


System Specs.
Mains- LSI9's
Center- LSIC
Surrounds-RTi28 x 4
Adcom GFA 7400 for mains and center
HK AVR 525 for surrounds.
Dvd-JVC
SACD/CD-Sony
Sony 36' Wega Flat
Monster cables and interconnects.

[infinitiqx4]

Originally posted by nellis8166
Home Depot wire and Ratshack interconnects....one word....horrible....sounded like $hit. I went to my local hi-fi store and had him make me some cables.

The general "don't give in to dumb hype" call doesn't say go use the cheapest Home Depot/Ratshack available. You spend $50 on your new interconnect instead of $20- and its better quality. There is a difference in things that are shielded, twisted, and oxygen free over junk. You also probably got bigger gauge and went bi-wire so there should be a difference cause its lower resistance. That's not the complaint here. If you buy junk it can HURT your sound. If you buy quality it will NOT AFFECT the sound (ie your basic cut speaker wire from a hi-fi store). But spending thousands of dollars on wire will not IMPROVE the sound quality. The issue is spending $300 or more on each cable when there is essentially no perceivable difference over your new $50 cables. You've got a very nice system that cost tons (LSi, HK, Adcom, etc). Did you spend 20%? No way.

[nellis8166]

not really sure what your point is Ifinitiqx4. i guess my point is that bought the best that my budget would allow and it is worlds apart from where i was before. i am very happy with the system. did i spend 20% on cables...no. would i ever spend that much on cables no matter what the system??? unless i win the lottery, no.
would i notice a difference in the wires and cables i have now??? not having a professional ear for this type of this i highly doubt it.

regards,
nat

[Frank Z]

Originally posted by nellis8166
i guess my point is that bought the best that my budget would allow and it is worlds apart from where i was before. i am very happy with the system.




That's the best thing I've read for a long time. It doesn't matter what it cost, or what others think(myself included),Your Gear, Your Money, Your Satisfaction! That's what it is all about!!

[nellis8166]

amen Frank Z, i think so as well