Let's talk TT upgrade.

[Ricardo]

That's right; I tried it and liked it; time to move on one step ahead. I like my Pro-Ject RM5, but it's still a pretty much entry level table, and I hear that you get the biggest improvement when you jump over the $1,000ish line. Once you are there, to get significant improvements you need to spend a good chunk. At least that's what I hear, and want to give it a try.

Funny thing is that I was pretty much set on a VPI Scout...until I started hearing voices that say that it's a dead table. Until a few days ago all I read was the Stereophile Class "B" stuff, you can't get any better, etc. But now I hear that it's dead. Someone told me today "do not buy a scout; you won't hear much of a difference from your RM5". I don't want a dead table; I want a dynamic table that shows what vinyl is capable of...still staying in the "mid" level arena.

So let's hear it from the experienced here. VPI, Nottingham, Rega, Sota, Clearaudio...They are supposed to have their own characteristics? How true is this? I know the cartridge/arm will play an important role, but what's the "signature" of these TT's?

[madmax]

The Michell table sounds awesome to me. Mine is a Gyro Dec which has been upgraded to an Orbe. People refer to it as a Gorbe... Whatever it is I like it. I have not heard the Scout but am sure its a fine table. For whatever reason someone recommended me away from it though. I really have no idea why.
madmax

[dorokusai]

Whatever you do get something different than the folks here have....except Madmax perhaps.

[RuSsMaN]

Nottingham.

Check out the Space Deck.

Cheers,
Russ

- oh, and don't read too much into Stereophile ratings - I love reading what Wes and the guys write, but I think the rec. comp. list isn't quite what it used to be. Think how expensive tables get, compared to cd players for example. If they recommend a $2000 table class A, what will the do with the $100K jobbies?

The VPI is far from a dead table, it might just be the best value out there at the pricepoint.

[SCompRacer]

They are supposed to have their own characteristics?

Oh yes. Not only cartridge and arms, but platter composition, platter to vinyl interface (foam, felt, Teflon, nothing, etc.), plinth, high mass versus suspended, belt, idler, magnetic tape drive, AC or DC motors, etc.


What is your budget range?

SOTA, VPI and Nottingham are in the full, rich and warm category. To me, VPI and Nottingham with OEM arms can sound dead or dull with a Shelter cartridge, but are lively with a Dynavector or Sumiko cartridge. Others feel differently. Change the arm on these tables and you can change the sonic presentation. I ran two arms on my Space Deck for a time and could use the Shelter on the second arm. More dynamic decks with better clarity are Origin Live, Thorens and Avid.

I had tried a stock Technics SL1200 but preferred my old Space Deck. I’ll put Carl on the spot as he has experience with my old Space Deck/Sumiko combination (the one you heard at the fest) and a KAB modded Technics at his friends place.

I consider myself fortunate to have many dealers with various brands of tables close by. Demo some if you can, then decide what you like. I would have never considered a Nottingham for myself until I heard one. If you have no dealers close by, two knowledgeable online dealers I have dealt with are Jay at Audio Revelation (http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ddanlgtabl&1206077007&demo&3&4&) or Larry at Hollywood Sound (http://show.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/shm.pl?anlgtabl&1173926885&item&Hwdsound&4&5&6&http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/srch_fs.plQQANYAAKEYWAApurlsrchAAEXYAAstAAAAAAnott ingham). They can match you with a table/cartridge combo based on what gear you own and like.

[Ricardo]

Thanks for the comments guys; Mark, you know I love different.

Rich, I know very well that I heard your space deck at the fest; remember I left the room because I didn't want to continue hearing??? But it was too late already :)

I'm planning to spend $2,000-$2,500 tops, used prices. The guy that steered me away from the Scout swears by the Avid Volvere, but that's way out of my price range He sells arms and cartridges (He's the one that bought my belles 350a...yes; I let it go. how did you guys think I was going to pay for this??)

I'll keep an eye open. One thing though; is there any table I should NOT buy (reliability, really bad, etc).

[billbillw]

Well, it may just be me, but I don't like hearing that a turntable is 'dead' sounding.

From my experience, the table itself is what determines how low the noise floor is, how solid the bass is, and how steady the playback is. I've found that the liveliness comes from the arm/cartridge combo and of course, the phono preamp. I wouldn't discount the Scout, but perhaps explore different combinations of arm/cartridge from what is standard. For the price, its hard to beat.

Oh yeah, table not to buy: I'd avoid Linn. Way overpriced for the sound you get, and they are hard to setup. In fact, I'd avoid any floating sub-chassis table if I were you. They are too fussy. This would include Oracle. I had my share of joy and headaches with an Oracle, and generally wouldn't recommend the older ones to anyone. Newer ones, maybe, but I think those are out of your price range.

[Fireman32]

Ricardo my VPI Mark III is up for sale in the flea market. It is an awsome sounding table and has good upgrades. I would love to see someone here get it. PM me if you have any questions.


Ok my sales pitch is over. :)

[Ricardo]

Bill, You might be right; maybe the comments I've heard refer to the Scout/JMW9 combo. Who knows. Maybe I will end with a Scout if I find a good deal. As I said, I'll keep my eyes open.

Dave, I saw your add. I thought you (or Joe) would mention it here. I know from what I've heard that is a great TT. Just not what I am looking for now. I'm sure someone will jump on it.

[Ricardo]

This is different...and cool.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Michell-Transcriptors-Hydraulic-Reference-Stunning_W0QQitemZ320222560395QQihZ011QQcategoryZ3 283QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[madmax]

They do make some strange looking contraptions. :)
madmax

[wingnut4772]

There is nothing 'dead sounding' about my VPI. That is just crazy talk.

[Ricardo]

Darla, I knew you'd chime in :)

What arm/cartridge are you using?

[wingnut4772]

It's all in storage at the moment BUT...The Memorial tonearm that came with the Scout and a Dynavector 10X5 Cart. The VR4 Jrs probably don't hurt the sound either.;)

[TroyD]

I'll let you know how the Scoutmaster sounds in a couple of days....my experience with VPI is FAR from dead.

If I didn't buy a VPI, Nottingham probably would have been my next contender.

BDT

[Ricardo]

I keep coming back to look at this one; any thougths?

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1208538742

[wingnut4772]

It's pretty for sure.

[SCompRacer]

Some of you that don’t like to hear the dead or dull word about a table/cartridge combination might consider the opposite end of the spectrum overly dynamic and outside of the music. Different strokes, but it is far from just crazy talk. And I do have what is considered a lively phono stage.

Ricardo, I have no direct experience with a Clearaudio. Have you explored just upgrading the arm on your table?

[Ricardo]

Darla, it is; Clearaudio has been around for a while and they make high priced, supposedly very good tables. Seems like a good price given that MSRP's are $1,000 for the tonearm and $1,700 for the table. And it is different. Hmmmm.......

Rich; No, I have not explored that option. I'm too noob at this point to start playing with those variables. I'd rather go with a somewhat proved combination.

[SCompRacer]

The Satisfy on the Clearaudio has the Ebony arm. Some folks prefer wood over carbon fibre/metal arms. Schroeder uses various wood on his tone arms and they are held in high regard. It will definitely be a change from what you have. Go for it.

[Ricardo]

I'll send an email to start a conversation ;)

[mulveling]

Can't lend much comparative experience here, but I can definitely vouch for the SOTA tables! I have the Star Sapphire III, 1980's build, paired with a great 80's arm (Fidelity Research FR64fx), and an $800 new cart (Benz Glider) and I couldn't be happier! For someone like me that's been prone to severe recurrent upgrade/downgrade/sidegrade-itis in other parts of my system, it's been a breath of fresh air to get that table setup last spring and not have any significant desire to fiddle with it, ever. Just pure listening enjoyment so far.

I DO prefer a lush, warm, full sound, so that fits in with what others typically say about SOTA.

I don't even use the vacuum feature nor a fancy clamp. I'm still glad I have the Star over the plain vintage Sapphire, since it has a better suspension and more substantial platter. This kind of table should pop up occasionally on agon for $800 (good working condition), sometimes with an arm for around 1K. With a really good arm it should be around $2K, which is what I paid for mine.

[Ricardo]

I've been looking at Sota also, but prices are a bit steeper than that. there is though a plain Saphire that has been reconditioned, but requires a tonearm. Decisions...decisions.

This thing looks good....damn.

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t123/garcimol/Clearaudio_Champion_Clear_Satisfy_E.jpg

[hearingimpared]

This business that VPIs sound dead is nonsense. My next table will be a VPI or if I get in a different sort of mood a Nottinham Deck.

I'm with Bill on the cause and effects of different components of a turntable. Although I've heard overly damped tables that sound dead. The new VPI tables I've heard of late sound cleaner and crisper but I would be will to bet that the cause of that is the tonearm/cart combo.

Ric the VPI Scoutmaster with the upgraded platter and a Dynavector 20x (even staying at the 10 x 5) cartridge would probably do you well.

Ric, if you want to I can call Stephen Monte at Quest for Sound and hook you up with him, he gives us Polkies great deals.

[shack]

My next TT will probably be the Clearaudio Emotion or the Marantz (built by Clearaudio) TT-15S1. I heard the Emotion with a Aurum Classic Wood cart a few months back and was very impressed. The Marantz is supposed to be a step above the Emotion.

http://www.audioadvisor.com/images/MARATT15S1_000.JPG

[Ricardo]

Too late; I am weak. I loved dealing with this guy. Got the table/arm combo, a dustcover and a Benz Micro Ace cartridge for what I think was a VERY good deal.

Good; now I can do some work. Thanks for all the input

[Ricardo]

Shack, had not seen your post; that's a beautiful table! And, good to know someone has actually heard and liked a Clearaudio ;)

[SCompRacer]

I think you done good Ricardo. IIRC, CP member Wardsweb has a Clearaudio Champion II with an SME 309 arm.

[jm1]

Having once had the base Scout and Dynavector 10x5 cart, I can say the combination is anything but dead or dull. I would take someone saying its dead or dull with a many grains of salt as you do not know what the TT was sitting on, the cartridge used or even if the cartridge was properly configured. Maybe the room was dead sounding, maybe the phono stage was lacking in some regard, etc…

When planning your TT and cartridge purchase, you should perform a quick calculation to determine if the tonearm and cart will be compatible. This will reduce your chances of getting a bad combination which may not perform to your standards.

Before I upgraded the 10x5 cartridge for the Scout with the standard tonearm, I performed these calculations to determine if the tonearm and cart were compatible.


SPECIFICATIONS

ZYX Fuji R100 X(H)-SB
- Cartridge weight: 9 (5 cartridge + 4 for silver base weight)
- Compliance: 15 horizontal, 12 vertical

VPI JMW-9 Tonearm
- Effective mass: 7.7

VPI JMW-9 Signature Tonearm
- Effective mass: 9.5


RESONATE FREQUENCY EQUATION

rf = 159 / sqrt ((eff. mass + cart weight + fastener weight) * (compliance))


CALCULATIONS

VPI JMW-9 Tonearm

- Effective mass: 7.7
- Cartridge weight: 9 (5 cartridge + 4 for silver base weight)
- Fastener weight: 0.5 (best guess)
- Compliance: 15 horizontal, 12 vertical

- Resonant frequency: 9.9 horizontal, 11.1 vertical

Fall between the accepted 8 – 12 Hz range.


When I was contemplating upgrading to the Signature tonearm, the following calculations were performed:

VPI JMW-9 Signature Tonearm

- Effective mass: 9.5
- Cartridge weight: 9 (5 cartridge + 4 for silver base weight)
- Fastener weight: 0.5 (best guess)
- Compliance: 15 horizontal, 12 vertical

- Resonant frequency: 9.4 horizontal, 10.5 vertical

Fall between the accepted 8 – 12 Hz range.


The cartridge proved to be a good match on paper. It was also a significant upgrade to the Dynavector 10x5.


JM


PS. All the values were aligned in a nice table format. The site strips the repeating white space characters to the format displayed.