Carver TFM-35 vs. Denon POA 2200

[ryboltroad]

Hi again all. I have been part (albeit limited) of this forum over the past several years and once again have the need to jump in. I realize that looking for unbiased advice in the audio world is pretty much an oxymoron but here goes.
I retired my beloved Carver TFM-35 to the storage room a few ago in search of some new 'strange' ; well in those years I ended up the usual stuff. Onkyo's ,Adcom's etc. Well the Denon POA2200 stole my heart driving my trusty Monitor 10's. I had found my dream amp .. period
Today I decided to put the TFM-35 on the bay to fund an upgrade of some other equipment. As part of my due diligence as a good seller and hooking it up to make sure everything was copasetic, I discovered it sounded pretty good. Damn good in fact. Suffice it to say I have spent the majority of the day switching back and forth between the two and the 35 keeps coming out on top.
Curious as to whether of any of you real experts think this out of the norm? For whatever reason I guess I had formulated the opinion that the Denon was a superior product. As of right now, I think I am gonna put the Denon on the bay.
Comments? Thanks
Gregg

[Ron Temple]

I'm not surprised...though I haven't heard the Denon. The Carver's got a signature sound. You've got me thinking about putting it back on the 1Cs.

[jcaut]

Not sure what it is, but I've found the 'Carver sound' to go very well with the 'Polk sound'. TFM-35 is no slouch and is probably on about the same level as the Denon, IMO. One of my favorite Carver amps and probably the one I'd keep if the others had to go.

[treitz3]

No surprise here.

[engtaz]

I agree.

engtaz

[skipf]

Carver + Polk = audio bliss.

[furball]

A properly designed solid state amp is not supposed to have sound colorations.

How old is your Denon, perhpas the caps need to be replaced.

[Ron Temple]

A properly designed solid state amp is not supposed to have sound colorations.

How old is your Denon, perhpas the caps need to be replaced.Bob Carver is an amp guru and definitely designed many of his amps to feature a signature sound. The TFMs and Ts are modded to sound like his silver 7 tube monos. Fans love them, others don't, but you'll hear the difference.

[treitz3]

A properly designed solid state amp is not supposed to have sound colorations.
Furball, if you are referring to the Carver amps....many of them are emulated to sound like a tube amp, yet they are an SS amp. Google "The Carver Amplifier Challenge" that went down in Santa Fe.

The TFM-35 ryboltroad has was emulated to sound like Bob's Silver Seven tube amplifier. That's the King of Carver tube amplifiers, still highly acclaimed and still bringing in the big bucks.

[sucks2beme]

The Denon is good, but the Carver is better.
I've had a POA2800 in my setup, and it didn't sound bad.
The Carver's high current output is going to give you a warmer sound.
That series of Denons seems to sell for as much as the Carvers.
I don't think money wise you're going to lose anything selling the
Denon rather than the Carver.

[sucks2beme]

A properly designed solid state amp is not supposed to have sound colorations.

How old is your Denon, perhpas the caps need to be replaced.

All amps have a sound. For instance my B&k st202 has a different sound than my Rotel.
Most reviewers say it, and my ears confirm it.
Most evey amp I've tried has different sound. Sometimes it's not much,
but different. Stop overthinking. We had a HUGE thread on how to even
start a standard for true, uncolored sound. It didn't resolve much.
If you even look at the real specs, (not the short list most manufacturers
give out) there are a lot of specs other than watts and frequency range
that tell you more about the amp. It's like a horsepower rating on a car.
Meaningless drivel. Show me a rpm/torque chart, now I know a lot more
how it will perform.

[furball]

I agree that many boutique amps have signature sound colorations. And many people seem to like these sound colorations, and that's the justification those boutique amp manufacturers' charge big bucks for their amps.

But you have to agree that the job of a properly designed amp is to amplify the signal fed to it, without adding any colorations in the amplification process.

If you like colorations, you don't have to pay big bucks for amp colorations, just add a digital EQ, you can tweak the sound to whatever shape and form you like to your heart's content. It is a far more elegant and much less expensive solution.

[treitz3]

I agree that many boutique amps have signature sound colorations. And many people seem to like these sound colorations, and that's the justification those boutique amp manufacturers' charge big bucks for their amps.

But you have to agree that the job of a properly designed amp is to amplify the signal fed to it, without adding any colorations in the amplification process.

If you like colorations, you don't have to pay big bucks for amp colorations, just add a digital EQ, you can tweak the sound to whatever shape and form you like to your heart's content. It is a far more elegant and much less expensive solution.
It's now obvious that you are a blow hard that doesn't know what the F you are talking about.

///// \\\\\

If you only knew the history of audio you would know. Anyhoo, have fun with this thread. I'm sure many folks will trust you and your opinions on SVS subs.:rolleyes:

[furball]

F you

:rolleyes:

[sucks2beme]

I agree that many boutique amps have signature sound colorations. And many people seem to like these sound colorations, and that's the justification those boutique amp manufacturers' charge big bucks for their amps.

But you have to agree that the job of a properly designed amp is to amplify the signal fed to it, without adding any colorations in the amplification process.

If you like colorations, you don't have to pay big bucks for amp colorations, just add a digital EQ, you can tweak the sound to whatever shape and form you like to your heart's content. It is a far more elegant and much less expensive solution.



Never mind. I had a whole paragraph lined up, but why bother.
We have different viewpoints. Never will the two meet.

[tonyb]

I agree that many boutique amps have signature sound colorations. And many people seem to like these sound colorations, and that's the justification those boutique amp manufacturers' charge big bucks for their amps.

But you have to agree that the job of a properly designed amp is to amplify the signal fed to it, without adding any colorations in the amplification process.

If you like colorations, you don't have to pay big bucks for amp colorations, just add a digital EQ, you can tweak the sound to whatever shape and form you like to your heart's content. It is a far more elegant and much less expensive solution.

Perhaps you can give us a list of these perfect pieces of gear with no coloration.....start with pre-amps-processors-amps and of coarse,speakers.
Everything adds or subtracts something from recorded music.As far as I know,nothing is available to bring live music into my home as it sounds...well,live.The word nuetral is of itself,subjective.Coloration is more of a side effect brought on by design and parts used,rather than an all out goal of the designer.

[furball]

I agree, we can cordially agree to disagree.

Unlike fellow member treitz, who apparently has to resort to using the F word every time settle any kind of argument.

[treitz3]

It's now obvious that you are a blow hard that doesn't know what the F you are talking about.

F you

:rolleyes:

Obvious misrepresentation. Take the entire quote in context. Then learn.

[treitz3]

This is not an argument. I am trying to let you learn.

[furball]

Of course every single piece of gear adds and subtracts something from the original signal. The difference lies in the degree of coloration. But the final goal is still to reproduce the music as close to the original signal as possible.

Do you want a piece of gear that gives you 50% coloration (exaggeration of course), or would you prefer a piece of gear that merely gives you 1% coloration (hypothetical situation of course).

For myself, I would choose that 1% coloration.

[treitz3]

Perhaps you can give us a list of these perfect pieces of gear with no coloration.....start with pre-amps-processors-amps and of coarse,speakers.
This was a question and not a statement.

[furball]

Regardless of circumstances, please refrain from using the F word in the future. It is extremely rude.


This is not an argument. I am trying to let you learn.

[treitz3]

Do you want a piece of gear that gives you 50% coloration
The point of this thread was that the author had stated that the Carver TFM-35 sounded better than the Denon POA 2200. The "coloration" you speak is an emulation of a tube amp, specifically the Carver silver seven. If you don't know what that is, I can't help you.

[furball]

Take a look at gears used in modern recording studios. Their first and foremost emphasis is on accuracy. The sound might be described as boring or sterile, that I do no disagree. But you can tweak the end result with a digital EQ to whatever shape and form your heart may desire, provided the upstream signal is an accurate signal.


This was a question and not a statement.

[furball]

I never disputed the fact that some people find this colored tube sound pleasant.

I was merely pointing out that the tube sound coloration does not give you an accurate reproduction of the original signal.



The point of this thread was that the author had stated that the Carver TFM-35 sounded better than the Denon POA 2200. The "coloration" you speak is an emulation of a tube amp, specifically the Carver silver seven. If you don't know what that is, I can't help you.

[treitz3]

Take a look at gears used in modern recording studios. Their first and foremost emphasis is on accuracy. The sound might be described as boring or sterile, that I do no disagree. But you can tweak the end result with a digital EQ to whatever shape and form your heart may desire, provided the upstream signal is an accurate signal.
...and this has what to do with this thread?

[jakelm]

If there is a cap, resistor or tube, in any part of the chain, there will be coloration.

So lets just drop that subject.

[treitz3]

If you would like to get into accuracy, look up the challenge that was held that night in Santa Fe. See who won. Ask Stereophile magazine, of course you will not get a response because they lost and consumers won.

[treitz3]

....and then look up the word emulation. It's in the dictionary, trust me.

[furball]

And then please look up the definition for borderline personality disorder. Just do a google search, trust me.

[treitz3]

boutique amp
I am, however curious of a "boutique amp" that happens to be vintage. This is new to me. Could you fill me in with some knowledge please?

[treitz3]

Just in case you folks missed it [as if you care] and are to lazy to scroll back....this was his last post.

And then please look up the definition for borderline personality disorder. Just do a google search, trust me.

I must be borderline personality!?!?!

[F1nut]

I like the F word. I also like pie.

[tonyb]

Take a look at gears used in modern recording studios. Their first and foremost emphasis is on accuracy. The sound might be described as boring or sterile, that I do no disagree. But you can tweak the end result with a digital EQ to whatever shape and form your heart may desire, provided the upstream signal is an accurate signal.

Well then,the studio,adding digital eq,just added coloration to that accurate signal,yes? The perception of what music is supposed to sound like differs from ear to ear,hence the difference in gear.Or are you saying the signal is accurate after the studio adds their spin on it?If so,then thats not exactly accurate is it?Digital EQ is not the be all end all.

[furball]

As long as the upstream signal is accurate, you can add colorations to the signal, and the effect on the final result is predictable.

However, if the upstream signal is not accurate, then whatever additional colorations you add to the signal will give you unpredictable result.

[furball]

I like the F word as well, but I rarely make a display of such vulgarity in public.

As to pie, each person has his/her own eccentricities, but I would encourage safety above all else.


I like the F word. I also like pie.

[engtaz]

A properly designed solid state amp is not supposed to have sound colorations.

How old is your Denon, perhpas the caps need to be replaced.

Most amps are design to as you say color sound to get the sound they want out of their amps. Krell, Adcom, Carver T and non T amp, Tube amps vs SS amps all have the specific sound or color to their amps. That's why manufactures get a following from one or the other listeners. Like speakers manufactures, everybody thinks the sound should be this way and another thinks it should be that way.

engtaz

[furball]

Well said. That's what I suspected all along.

[F1nut]

Tom was right, somebody doesn't know what the F they are talking about.

[furball]

F

The failings of a dysfunctional American educational system, and a pop culture that promotes profanity over reason.

[F1nut]

I'm effing bad, I'm effing nationwide. You're just a furball....ack ack.

[ryboltroad]

The Denon is good, but the Carver is better.
I've had a POA2800 in my setup, and it didn't sound bad.
The Carver's high current output is going to give you a warmer sound.
That series of Denons seems to sell for as much as the Carvers.
I don't think money wise you're going to lose anything selling the
Denon rather than the Carver.

10-4. Thanks. I have spent a fair amount of time this week in the evenings listening and I have reached the same conclusion. I think maybe I was fooled by the if it weighs 60 lbs and has 100,000 UF bank of capacitors it has to be good kind of rationalization. There's only one test left to do and that requires the wife to leave the house, I am gonna reallythrow the juice to them with a Supertramp digital master or something like that. Thanks all for the help and comments.

[Deadof_knight]

very simple here CARVER over the Denon for your amp selection.

[George Grand]

However, if the upstream signal is not accurate, then whatever additional colorations you add to the signal will give you unpredictable result.[/QUOTE]

Did you come up with that load of shit on your own? (I'd think twice before I took credit for that statement. In fact, I'm not sure I'd ever admit to making that statement. Too late for you though huh?)

[furball]

load of shit

Everyone has to take care of business one way or another. I do it on a daily basis. I hope you at least do yours once a day.

[lightman1]

I like the F word. I also like pie.

me too..

[lightman1]

BTW... Treitz does have personality disorder and and and overall nasty attitude. That's why we F**kin' love him!!!
I have two POA-1500 and I like 'em a lot....you bunch of hacks.

[ryboltroad]

10-4. Thanks. I have spent a fair amount of time this week in the evenings listening and I have reached the same conclusion. I think maybe I was fooled by the if it weighs 60 lbs and has 100,000 UF bank of capacitors it has to be good kind of rationalization. There's only one test left to do and that requires the wife to leave the house, I am gonna reallythrow the juice to them with a Supertramp digital master or something like that. Thanks all for the help and comments.

Ok, the showdown wasn't a show down at all. The Carver whooped ass in every thing I threw at it. The Denon sounds good but it doesnt stand a chance against the tfm-35. I dont think the monitor 10's have ever had that much power thrown at them, it was kinda frightening as to who was gonna give. The Carver whooped ass, predicted by you gurus which is no surprise. In fact there is really no comparing the two amps considering the music I use. I mean you are standing there with a glass of Talisker scotch getting all smug thiniking you are an audiophile and the Carver reaches up and punches you in the chest and reminds you who is boss. My test sources were Supertramp and Dire Straights ...... masters.
BTW, I like profanity so please feeling F!@#ing free to use f!@#$ing profanity in any F!@#$ing thread in which I am the F!@#$ing author!

Peace. Thanks ...............

Denon POA and Monitor 7C's going up for sale. PM me if interested.

Gregg

[F1nut]

....you bunch of hacks.

Did you just figure that out? ;) :D

[lightman1]

Did you just figure that out? ;) :D

Yep..;) Change your name to Hack1nut:p

[ben62670]

Do the Carvers, and the newer Sunfires have the same sound signature?

[tonyb]

Pretty much so Ben,at least from my ears.Of coarse being all things equal in the associated gear department.I thought the older carvers had a tad bit more warmth to them but I could be wrong.

[Ron Temple]

Probably closer to the 706 and 806X which I beleive were the last Carvers out the door.

[mightymouse]

Pardon me for being a newbie.

Which places sell those Carver amps?

[heiney9]

Do the Carvers, and the newer Sunfires have the same sound signature?

No not really. The older Carvers (IMO) are a bit more musical and perhaps a bit more "laid back" than the Sunfire's. Adcom to my ears is worlds better (in the few instances I've compared).

H9

[TroyD]

Take a look at gears used in modern recording studios. Their first and foremost emphasis is on accuracy..

This could POSSIBLY be the biggest load of crap in recent memory. Dry that one out and you could fertilize most of the midwest with it.

That said, I agree, the Carver is the better amp.

BDT

[furball]

For your information, throughout most of human history, fermented human feces and animal manure were the only source of fertilizer used in farming. This practice was only gradually changed when the Germans invented chemical fertilizer in the late 1800's.

Even today, fermented human feces and animal manure are prized fertilizers in many parts of the world.

How do you think your precious "organic" food get fertilized?


This could POSSIBLY be the biggest load of crap in recent memory. Dry that one out and you could fertilize most of the midwest with it.

BDT

[TroyD]

Well, it could well be said that you certainly do know shit.

[GV#27]

But you have to agree that the job of a properly designed amp is to amplify the signal fed to it, without adding any colorations in the amplification process.Agreed,and that is the goal of companies like Levinson ,Bryston and Pass Labs etc,to produce amplifiers that alter the signal as little as possible.However each have a different recipe for trying to achieve this accurasy thus each will have their own sonic signature.

[mightymouse]

How much are you asking for the Denon? Any pictures?


Ok, the showdown wasn't a show down at all. The Carver whooped ass in every thing I threw at it. The Denon sounds good but it doesnt stand a chance against the tfm-35. I dont think the monitor 10's have ever had that much power thrown at them, it was kinda frightening as to who was gonna give. The Carver whooped ass, predicted by you gurus which is no surprise. In fact there is really no comparing the two amps considering the music I use. I mean you are standing there with a glass of Talisker scotch getting all smug thiniking you are an audiophile and the Carver reaches up and punches you in the chest and reminds you who is boss. My test sources were Supertramp and Dire Straights ...... masters.
BTW, I like profanity so please feeling F!@#ing free to use f!@#$ing profanity in any F!@#$ing thread in which I am the F!@#$ing author!

Peace. Thanks ...............

Denon POA and Monitor 7C's going up for sale. PM me if interested.

Gregg

[furball]

Shit is such an, ambiguous word, it is rarely used in polite society.

In polite society, the term fecal matter is the preferred term.

And I certainly do hope that you know your fecal matter as well, because like it or not, all the food that we eat everyday, including the dinner that your just ate, are recycled matter, including recycled fecal matter.


Well, it could well be said that you certainly do know shit.

[wire]

Ok, the showdown wasn't a show down at all. The Carver whooped ass in every thing I threw at it. The Denon sounds good but it doesnt stand a chance against the tfm-35. I dont think the monitor 10's have ever had that much power thrown at them, it was kinda frightening as to who was gonna give. The Carver whooped ass, predicted by you gurus which is no surprise. In fact there is really no comparing the two amps considering the music I use. I mean you are standing there with a glass of Talisker scotch getting all smug thiniking you are an audiophile and the Carver reaches up and punches you in the chest and reminds you who is boss. My test sources were Supertramp and Dire Straights ...... masters.
BTW, I like profanity so please feeling F!@#ing free to use f!@#$ing profanity in any F!@#$ing thread in which I am the F!@#$ing author!

Peace. Thanks ...............

Denon POA and Monitor 7C's going up for sale. PM me if interested.

Gregg
Hehe
I love the TFM-35 , i have one hooked up to my Computer with a CT-17 :p .
I would choose the TFM - 35 over a Denon Amp . Anyhow , my TFM is a backup for my Bryston 4b :) . Which i have hooked up to some Polk 2bs :) . The TFM-35 can hold its own with the 2b's also .

[wire]

Agreed,and that is the goal of companies like Levinson ,Bryston and Pass Labs etc,to produce amplifiers that alter the signal as little as possible.However each have a different recipe for trying to achieve this accurasy thus each will have their own sonic signature.
Agreed
My 4b vs the TFM-35 , is different sound . Both are good .

[treitz3]

Do the Carvers, and the newer Sunfires have the same sound signature?
No....

[snoboarder77]

ryboltroad-id be interested in the denon. do you still have?

[shadowofnight]

I just received a TFM-35x today from the fed-ex express.....very nice amp.
Watched a couple of movies today with it pulling front channel duty , will try it in a 2 channel setup tomorrow.

I can see why these are so popular....