Yamaha Loudness Knob

[rskarvan]

I have an older Yamaha 2-channel receiver with a "loudness knob". Its the best feature I've experienced on a receiver. Basically, it turns-down the middle of the vocal range. So, I set the sound nice and full (moderately loud) and then when I want to turn down the music, I leave the master-volume alone and turn the "loudness knob" and the middle of the music quiets down. But, the highs and lows are still there - nice and strong.

Its a simple feature. And, its fabulous. Why don't all receivers offer this very useful feature?

[mhardy6647]

It is one of the few useful loudness compensation solutions, although it is based on the somewhat flawed Fletcher-Munson equal loudness curves.

Variable loudness such as Yamaha employed was used on a number of 1950s and 1960s hifi products, as well. Two that I can vouch for are the EICO HF-52 mono integrated amplifier (PP EL34 and nice output iron) and the Sherwood S-5500II stereo integrated amp (PP 7591).

These guys all have the variable loudness...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/mhardy6647/someyamahae.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/mhardy6647/DSCN3118.jpg

EDIT: FWIW, there were a few other 1970s amps or receivers that had variable loudness controls... not that I can remember any of them at the moment. We have a Kenwood KA-7100 that has a two position loudness control -- though I really don't have any idea why! The McIntosh C-28 has a 'loudness'/'presence' EQ switch on the front panel (come to think of it).

[furball]

At low volumes, human hearing becomes less sensitive to bass frequencies. The loudness feature compensates for our decreased sensitivity at low volumes, by boosting the bass frequencies up a couple of notch. I am not sure if the loudness button does anything to the trebble frequencies as well.

Yamaha used to have this loudness feature on almost all their receivers, integrated amps. But nowadays they must have phased out this feature on their newer receivers.

[TroyD]

Q: What do loudness buttons and skarvan have in common?

A: both suck

BDT

[mhardy6647]

http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/graphics/Fletcher-Munson.gif
A 'properly implemented' Fletcher-Munson correction will boost HF and LF relative to MR. Some, especially lLater, "loudness contour" buttons only boosted LF.

[furball]

Would Jesus approve of your comment?

I think not.


Q: What do loudness buttons and skarvan have in common?

A: both suck

BDT

[furball]

So how do you read this graph?

Does it indicate that our hearing is less sensitive to both bass and trebble frequencies?

And so the loudness feature boosts both bass and trebble frequencies?


http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/graphics/Fletcher-Munson.gif
A 'properly implemented' Fletcher-Munson correction will boost HF and LF relative to MR. Later "loudness contour" buttons typically only boosted LF.

[Face]

Would Jesus approve of your comment?

I think not.
LOL!!

[F1nut]

JC approves....he told me so.

[furball]

It's one thing to pray to god, everyone does it. It's called faith. But, aside from a VERY select few, it's quite something else when you think that god is speaking back to you. It's called schizophrenia.

JC approves....he told me so.

[danger boy]

My Yamaha CA-610II has variable loudness knob. it's rad.

[mhardy6647]

So how do you read this graph?

Does it indicate that our hearing is less sensitive to both bass and trebble frequencies?

And so the loudness feature boosts both bass and trebble frequencies?

Yes and yes, respectively (i.e., you answered your own first question).

The Yamaha manuals explain it fairly well. See, e.g., page 20 of
http://www2.yamaha.co.jp/manual/pdf/av/english/AFR/CR-2020.pdf

My Yamaha CA-610II has variable loudness knob. it's rad.

mmm-hmm... :-P

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/mhardy6647/P1020541.jpg

[furball]

So why did Yamaha get rid off this loudness feature in their newer receivers?

[danger boy]

So why did Yamaha get rid off this loudness feature in their newer receivers?

I don't think it was just Yamaha.. it was a feature on 70's and 80's stereo gear.

I don't think it's been on any gear since then that I know of.

Isn't it just a different name for a variable output level volume knob.. although they do different things? My Pioneer tuner has a output level volume knob that is used for when you connect it so an amp using the variable output RCA's.

[rskarvan]

Mhardy... that is awfully pretty silver-faced Yamaha equipment you've got there. I especially like the analog tuner. Very nice.

[F1nut]

I'm one of the VERY select few. I'm bad. I'm nationwide.

As an aside, I said JC said so, not God.

[rskarvan]

Trinity... not just a character in the Matrix.

[michaeljhsda2]

"We have a Kenwood KA-7100 that has a two position loudness control -- though I really don't have any idea why!"

My Kenwood KR 9600 also has a 2 position loudness control. Loudness position 1 gives a 3 db boost and position 2 gives a 6 db boost.

[heiney9]

The variable loudness control and the loudness button are 2 completely different things.

I had a Nak receiver and a Yammy integrated that used the variable loudness compensation. It's just a novelty and I found I didn't use the feature. If you bypass the tone controls it bypasses the variable loudness as well. Since I always ran those units minus tone controls then no variable loudness. Those pieces have been moved along.

H9

[Yashu]

As an aside, I said JC said so, not God.

I am not a christian, but from what I understand, JC is one of the 3 arms of god, so technically he was right, if you are heaing voices from JC, you are hearing voices from god, so the schizophrenia comment stands to reason.

I have a NAD c160 pre, and it has pretty useful tone controls, but I have found myself wanting more than that sometimes. I want to adjust the freq. range the tone controls effect, and this loudness feature would be great, so long as I could adjust it to not modify the HF in the same way it does the mid and lower frequencies. I find that the signal modification controls in many vintage recievers to be of a higher quality than what is included on some gear today. While the NAD controls are quality, they are only sometimes useful because of the non adjustable freq. that they effect. I generally only use the treble control, because modern music is mixed very hot, however it would be nice to have a bass control that I could match to the LF rolloff of my speakers, and a loudness feature for low volume listening.

I find it odd that the loudness control *lowers* the midrange relative to the two extremes. I remember loudness buttons and knobs on many old pieces of gear, and I remmeber what sounded like a boosted midrange. Maybe it is my foggy memory. I have not had a vintage receiver in a while, and my vintage poweramp doesn't have any controls.

[furball]

Well, look at it this way. Since at low volumes, human hearing is less sensitive to the bass and trebble frequencies, the loudness control compensates for this by boosting the bass and trebble controls. This also means relative to the boosted bass and trebble frequencies, the midrange effective gets boosted down a couple of notches.

I remember seeing some old high end preamps/integrated amps/receivers with a trebble, midrange, and bass tone control. But nowadays, it looks like that midrange tone control is no longer in fashion, all you have are the bass and trebble tone controls.


Another way you can play with tone controls, in this digital age, is to add a digital EQ. You pass the digital signal to the digital EQ, and you can adjust the music to whatever shape and form you like in the digital domain, without any quality loss. That's a really cool way of adjusting music to suit your listening needs. Behringer makes such a digital EQ, and some people have used it with great results.


Or if you use your computer as your music server (computer -> DAC -> preamp -> amp), then it's even easier, most music players have built in EQ's. I use Foobar.

[heiney9]

Tone controls are evil!

[mhardy6647]

Tone controls are evil!

Yup, nowadays folks use interconnects and speaker cables as their tone controls. It only costs an order of magnitude more than the old-fashioned kind.

[Face]

Tone controls are evil!
I agree.
Yup, nowadays folks use interconnects and speaker cables as their tone controls. It only costs an order of magnitude more than the old-fashioned kind.
Yes, but at least they aren't adding noise. Only shaping. ;)

[mightymouse]

Have you seen the price of boutique interconnects, speaker cables and powercords lately? They are more like 2 orders of magnitude more...:D


Yup, nowadays folks use interconnects and speaker cables as their tone controls. It only costs an order of magnitude more than the old-fashioned kind.

[mhardy6647]

for the record, I rarely use tone controls nor variable loudness... but, like armaments, it may be better to have 'em and not need 'em than to need 'em and not have 'em.

The Yamaha loudness contour is a relatively subtle and effective way to provide some compensation that is far more useful than a 'button'. I haven't felt a need to use any loudness compensation since I went to tube amps and efficient speakers (at any listening level).

That said, the resolutely solid state Yamaha CA-800 that's currently in the living room sounds very good dead flat at any level when used in its Class A mode. This past weekend, I will admit to using a bit of LF boost on my mass loaded TQWT speakers -- this is, I think, a more satisfying approach than adding a high-level "baffle step correction" filter to EQ the LF rolloff of the fullrange drivers in them (even though the latter approach is recommended by their designer). On an EICO HF-81, I am happy with them 'flat', though.

Tone controls are less evil than dogmatism, I think...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/mhardy6647/P1030096.jpg

[AudioFilet]

My old Fisher tube amp has tone controls. It's pretty cool. You can turn either one of them up or down.

[furball]

Nice looking setup mhardy6647! That reel to reel must be ancient!:D

[hearingimpared]

I am not a christian, but from what I understand, JC is one of the 3 arms of god, so technically he was right, if you are heaing voices from JC, you are hearing voices from god, so the schizophrenia comment stands to reason.



No-one gives a flip about your unlearned opinions on this topic. To say that one hearing from GOD has schizophrenia is out of line.

It stands to reason that you are mentally ill because people here constantly prove you are wrong and you never admit it and keep coming back with other BS replies.

[mhardy6647]

That reel to reel must be ancient!
Which one? The TASCAM's from the late 1980s; the Pioneer is newer than Yamaha amp (ca. 1980).

They both have rather substantial EQ built into 'em, so that their response is flat (to keep this post on topic) :-)

Now, my normal living room amp... that's ancient (probably only a year or two newer than me)!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/mhardy6647/P1020749.jpg

[F1nut]

JHC Yashu, my silly comments were in direct response to Furball's silly comments. Nothing more, nothing less. The fact that you and he seem to be serious makes one wonder as to the state of your sense of humor.

Yours truly,
Goldmember

[F1nut]

Cables are not tone controls. They are another component and as such are subject to the issue of synergy.

[furball]

I think I am younger than most of your gears.:D

So how does it feel to have witnessed the evolution of hifi over the years? In your opinion, have we gone uphill, stayed flat, or gone down hill over the years?

What's your opinion on the state of modern solid state amps? Are the recent ones (2000 and onward) better, worse, or about the same as the old ones?

I am really curious to know.:D




Now, my normal living room amp... that's ancient (probably only a year or two newer than me)!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/mhardy6647/P1020749.jpg

[furball]

As a student of the sciences, I am rather in favor of Dr. Einstein's take on religion:


A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty - it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man. (Albert Einstein)

I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. (Albert Einstein, 1954)

I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of [individual] human beings. (Albert Einstein)


A human being is part of the whole called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. We experience ourselves, our thoughts and feelings as something separate from the rest. A kind of optical delusion of consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from the prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty. The true value of a human being is determined by the measure and the sense in which they have obtained liberation from the self. We shall require a substantially new manner of thinking if humanity is to survive. (Albert Einstein, 1954)

The most beautiful and most profound experience is the sensation of the mystical. It is the sower of all true science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead. To know that what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their primitive forms - this knowledge, this feeling is at the center of true religiousness.
( Albert Einstein - The Merging of Spirit and Science)

[F1nut]

It would be a good time to point out the the discussion of religion on this forum is verboten.

[rskarvan]

It would be a good time to point out the the discussion of religion on this forum is verboten.

Interestingly enough, an employer CANNOT make the discussion of religion verboten in the workforce. An employee has every bit as much right to talk about Jesus as a co-worker has to talk about the latest football game. Unless all informal conversation is forbidden, then the discussion of religion is free/fair game by an employee.

And, yes, I agree this is a private forum (not a workplace) and that Polk Audio does have the right to make the discussion of religion here verboten.

[F1nut]

Interestingly enough, I'd still fire your arse.

[GV#27]

Cables are not tone controls.If they are altering frequency balance that much then they are doing something they shouldn't be.

[Yashu]

It stands to reason that you are mentally ill because people here constantly prove you are wrong and you never admit it and keep coming back with other BS replies.

I am not the one that can't take a joke... I make an intellectual joke and everyone gets offended.

I don't mind that it is on the record that I do not believe in a magic man in the sky, but that is not the topic of this thread, I was merely making a joke on previous comments among people that are supposed to be kind of like friends, or at least, peers.

I did give my opinion regarding loudness and tone controls, so I certainly wasn't off topic. Get a grip. Has is gotten so bad that I have to actually point out that something is a joke or not, or sarcasm or not? I thought we were all adults here.

If anyone wants to wax philosophy, I would be happy to give my view. I am not sure if anyone would understand it, words being crude tools. (those that do "get it", would not be offended by that statement) I do not believe in any objectified deity. That includes most of the west's understanding of "god". The nature of my spirituality is such that, being abstract, subjective, if I were to try and explain it, it would taint the entire concept. Have faith in what you feel inside, and don't allow words to bound and gag your thoughts. Every so often I read the science news, and I see that we are discovering more and more of what I have always known since I was young. It grounds me to know there is physical proof for what I have always felt. It makes me feel a little more human and a little less of the eyes behind the windows of my vision. I am glad that *someone* has been able to express these ideas... it is for the good of humanity, but no matter what language we use, context still applies. There lies another problem... how to express, not just information, but context as well.

The moment that one is capable of stepping back from the plane of their vision, is the moment that, humbled, it is obvious that there is more to the world than just what we immediately perceive. It changes you, and not always in a good way. Sometimes it is better not to know these things, trust me, ignorance is bliss. I have lived too many lives, I am tired, and it scares me how accurate my predictions have been. I have felt things at age 5, we are only discovering today by the top minds of the world... they use the language of math and science, and all I had to do was think about it. What does that mean? Is the world really that simple? I have grown up to put all my effort into hoping that it isn't... nothing in this world is scarier than a life without free will. Even that sentence is a paradox, as there can be no life without free will.

Perfection is literally death. We spend our lives fighting entropy, robbing the universe of a balance, That is what we do, that is what life is, controlled chaos. the day we die is the day forces applying to our will are finally allowed to settle. Balance restored.

With all that out there in the world, the wonder, the spirit of humanity, the idea the we may just have free will afterall... With everything we know and enjoy, why the fuck do people with large post counts have to keep starting fights around here?!!?

I am not going anywhere, so get used to my replies. It's been over a year since I joined, one would think you could handle it by now, F1.

[BaggedLancer]

I am God.....bow down bitches. Why are we talking about religion in a thread about knobs? Any thread about knobs needs pictures of boobies.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd234/BaggedLancer/bra.jpg

[hearingimpared]

I am not the one that can't take a joke... I make an intellectual joke and everyone gets offended.

I don't mind that it is on the record that I do not believe in a magic man in the sky, but that is not the topic of this thread, I was merely making a joke on previous comments among people that are supposed to be kind of like friends, or at least, peers.

I did give my opinion regarding loudness and tone controls, so I certainly wasn't off topic. Get a grip. Has is gotten so bad that I have to actually point out that something is a joke or not, or sarcasm or not? I thought we were all adults here.

If anyone wants to wax philosophy, I would be happy to give my view. I am not sure if anyone would understand it, words being crude tools. (those that do "get it", would not be offended by that statement) I do not believe in any objectified deity. That includes most of the west's understanding of "god". The nature of my spirituality is such that, being abstract, subjective, if I were to try and explain it, it would taint the entire concept. Have faith in what you feel inside, and don't allow words to bound and gag your thoughts. Every so often I read the science news, and I see that we are discovering more and more of what I have always known since I was young. It grounds me to know there is physical proof for what I have always felt. It makes me feel a little more human and a little less of the eyes behind the windows of my vision. I am glad that *someone* has been able to express these ideas... it is for the good of humanity, but no matter what language we use, context still applies. There lies another problem... how to express, not just information, but context as well.

The moment that one is capable of stepping back from the plane of their vision, is the moment that, humbled, it is obvious that there is more to the world than just what we immediately perceive. It changes you, and not always in a good way. Sometimes it is better not to know these things, trust me, ignorance is bliss. I have lived too many lives, I am tired, and it scares me how accurate my predictions have been. I have felt things at age 5, we are only discovering today by the top minds of the world... they use the language of math and science, and all I had to do was think about it. What does that mean? Is the world really that simple? I have grown up to put all my effort into hoping that it isn't... nothing in this world is scarier than a life without free will. Even that sentence is a paradox, as there can be no life without free will.

Perfection is literally death. We spend our lives fighting entropy, robbing the universe of a balance, That is what we do, that is what life is, controlled chaos. the day we die is the day forces applying to our will are finally allowed to settle. Balance restored.

With all that out there in the world, the wonder, the spirit of humanity, the idea the we may just have free will afterall... With everything we know and enjoy, why the fuck do people with large post counts have to keep starting fights around here?!!?

I am not going anywhere, so get used to my replies. It's been over a year since I joined, one would think you could handle it by now, F1.

WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAa \

They're coming to take you away, ha ha
They're coming to take you away, he he
To the funny farm,
Where life is beautiful, simple and gay.

[furball]

Edit

[hearingimpared]

Ack, ack, ack I got a furball stuck in my throat.

[F1nut]

Yashu dude, you've got some serious issues. I wish you well.

[rskarvan]

Yashu, when you escape into the deep thoughts within your own mind where you sincerely believe that you possess a unique knowledge of the universe that others just don't seem to understand, its really is time to have a heart-to-heart discussion with a mental health professional as soon as humanly possible.

[reeltrouble1]

well we got a rat and we got a brain turned to cheese.

RT1--Thats my line now bite my hook.

[Yashu]

its really is time to have a heart-to-heart discussion with a mental health professional as soon as humanly possible.

My thought patterns are a gift, not an illness. When I was younger I did go "seek help", but there was nothing wrong to begin with. I was just smart. All I had to do was come to terms that it was ok to not be like everyone else. It is not a disease, or an illness, to be smart, or to see the world, and the universe, from alternate perspectives. Intelligence and spirituality are intertwined, and while it is absurd to objectify it (which is what most modern theistic religions do), the fact that the universe has a clear beginning, and a clear structure, as in, it is logical, order derived from chaos, it is hard not to wonder what is beyond, what came before, and what caused it to begin. The rest we already know. Had the universe began as a uniform expansion, there would be nothing but evenly spaced particles for 14 billion light years... but *something* introduced a tiny bit of chaos in the beginning, causing what you see today as a universe full of variety, and of course, life here on earth.

There is a huge problem in this society, to view people that do not have the same thoughts and desires as everyone else as being mentally ill. People should not be given the wrong impression like that, and you should not be supporting such things. Homogenization is the true illness, as well as forced religious indoctrination.

Your comment was a joke though... but it did remind me of some of the problems western society faces, as pop corporate culture creeps into every facet of daily life.

I agree with the poster that said that, though he does not use the controls, having the tone controls and not needing them is better than the alternative. I also agree with those that say instead of tone controls we spend much more money on almost the same concept in cables and other accessories. I do not buy the argument that well implemented tone or EQ controls introduce phase problems. Cables can introduce those issues, as they are also conducting A/C, and generally much longer than the couple inches inside the pre section where a tone control sits, therefore they have their own EM interference, however small it may be, but certainly greater than a well designed tone circuit.

As long as these features are used in moderation, I don't see anything wrong with them, and I wish more hifi equipment made today had those options. Every recording is not perfect, and *some* of those problems can be addressed... if we had the controls that is.

[mhardy6647]

how 'bout them Red Sox?

[furball]

Edit

[rskarvan]

Yashu, you seem like a reasonably intelligent fellow. In this spirit, I sincerely ask you: what outside assurances do you have that you are not self-deluded? Seriously, you speak of death as the ultimate perfection. That is more than a little odd.

Have you seen the movie "A beautiful mind"? Or, "The Number 23"? In both of these flicks, reasonably intelligent people go into their own mind and define for themselves a new reality that is (uhmm) significantly different than the majority.

The last point to ponder is that it is a rare occasion when a mentally ill person seeks mental help all on their own initiative. All the normal people seek out mental health professionals to cope with life's problems while the "abnormally developed intellects" believe themselves to be perfectly fine (or, better than fine... gifted).

Just some thoughts to reflect upon. Have a nice day.

[Joe08867]

how 'bout them Red Sox?

WAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!

[Face]

I feel like I just stepped into the twilight zone.

[furball]

Once upon a blue moon, in the thickness of a tropical rainforest, there resided a group of monkeys. They were content and happy and thought themselves masters of the world.

One day, one monkey, some would say a peculiar monkey, decided that he would like to climb dowm from the trees and walk on two legs. The rest of the monkeys laughed at him, scorned him, and all thought he was, strange.

And the rest, as we all know, is history.

The far descendants of that one strange monkey came to rule the world. And the descendants of those who laughed at that one strange monkey, well, they are still monkeys, and are still living happily in their ignorant bliss in that old rainforest.


And today, after all those many blue moons, another monkey decided that instead of seeing the world right side up, he wants to see the world upside down. And again, many other monkeys decide to laugh at him.

Who knows, in the many blue moons yet to come, who knows what will happen.;)



My thought patterns are a gift, not an illness. When I was younger I did go "seek help", but there was nothing wrong to begin with. I was just smart. All I had to do was come to terms that it was ok to not be like everyone else. It is not a disease, or an illness, to be smart, or to see the world, and the universe, from alternate perspectives. Intelligence and spirituality are intertwined, and while it is absurd to objectify it (which is what most modern theistic religions do), the fact that the universe has a clear beginning, and a clear structure, as in, it is logical, order derived from chaos, it is hard not to wonder what is beyond, what came before, and what caused it to begin. The rest we already know. Had the universe began as a uniform expansion, there would be nothing but evenly spaced particles for 14 billion light years... but *something* introduced a tiny bit of chaos in the beginning, causing what you see today as a universe full of variety, and of course, life here on earth.

There is a huge problem in this society, to view people that do not have the same thoughts and desires as everyone else as being mentally ill. People should not be given the wrong impression like that, and you should not be supporting such things. Homogenization is the true illness, as well as forced religious indoctrination.

Your comment was a joke though... but it did remind me of some of the problems western society faces, as pop corporate culture creeps into every facet of daily life.

[furball]

There is a fine line between genius and madness. But who is to say who decides to draw that line where.

Uniformity gives a society stability. But it is those unique elements that advance a society.

Galileo was burned at the stake. People thought he was mad. Madness indeed.

[dorokusai]

He wasn't burned at the stake....unless its simply metaphorically speaking.

[WilliamM2]

He wasn't burned at the stake....unless its simply metaphorically speaking.

And humans did not evolve from monkeys either, but what the hell, he's on a roll.

[dorokusai]

Test Tube Babies Gone WILD!!!!

[Len]

What about the loudness knob??????????????? Let's get back to the topic Guys.

[Len]

More like meth lab gone wrong

[tonyb]

All this over a "loudness knob"??.......jeez...I'm gonna leave it at that.

[rskarvan]

Turned all the way up (clockwise), my Yamaha loudness knob has units tha read "FLAT". Turned down, it reads -10, -20, etc. Its strange that its named a "loudness" knob when all it really does is attenuate the signal. Why isn't it called the "Quiet" knob since it is primarily used for listening to music at lower volumes? Hmmm

[Yashu]

you speak of death as the ultimate perfection. That is more than a little odd.

It is very simple and explained within the laws of thermodynamics, that forces will naturally move towards equilibrium. Living is merely maintaining an imbalance of force, or, as I said, fighting entropy. "Life" goes well beyond current accepted taxonomy.

Life is, quite frankly, a paradox, and it is this notion that I do not dismiss spirituality altogether. While I don't believe in an objective deity, the fact that there is order in the universe at all, let alone, energy (we are all made of matter, matter is a form of energy), and the very thing the universe is made from can change and modify itself, the fact that there might be free will within a strict system of natural order... it would be silly to say that there is nothing beyond the windows of our eyes.

I have only seen what I have seen... and even though reverse engineering of my own brain through meditative states has only given me a little bit more insight. I know that the current accepted concept of "time" is wrong (though science is just beginning to touch on this), I know enough about the process of storing and recalling memory along with other thought processes (again, science is beginning to confirm), and I also know that the human brain has evolved to arbitrarily place boundaries in order to objectify the world, when these boundaries don't truly exist, at least not in the way we evolved to think and feel. I know many more things, but I wish to not speak of them. I do not think we are supposed to be acutely aware of certain things, so the less I speak of them the better.

I have a question... I have a preamp with an adjustable gain pre out, and I want to know if reducing the level on the pre out will help or hurt lower volume listening. For example, I can plug it directly into my amp, or I can use the adjustable output that goes from 0 to -12db. Would changing this setting give me better lower volume listening? Anyone have experience with this control, and if so, what are you using it for? I would like to have better lower volume listening, but I don't want it to emphasize the treble.

[rskarvan]

Ok, I'm convinced. Where is my grape Kool-aide?

Many very good pre-amps are resistive/passive. I'd recommend setting the gain of the amp reasonably high (some are adjustable) and using the pre-amp to attenuate the signal to lower volumes. Preamps are nothing more than switching devices with volume controls. Experiment a little and report back which method you find works best. (Assuming you don't perfect yourself first).

[GV#27]

Yashu, you seem like a reasonably intelligent fellow. In this spirit, I sincerely ask you: what outside assurances do you have that you are not self-deluded? WAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

[hearingimpared]

Yashu,

You don't live on the East Coast of the USA do you? If you do I'm moving, you are one scary dude.

[mhardy6647]

Why isn't it called the "Quiet" knob since it is primarily used for listening to music at lower volumes? Hmmm
because the effect of correcting for frequency response "nonlinearities" of the human auditory system at low sound levels became known as 'loudness compensation' a long long time ago.

[Yashu]

Preamps are nothing more than switching devices with volume controls.

It has a class A gain stage... I know it's not a lot of gain, but it is some. I always wondered if I turn the knob to -12, would I be able to use more of the glass A gain stage per gain of my a/b amp? Like... it is a ratio? Or, does that knob just attenuate the sensitivity of the main volume knob, so in the end, it is drawing the same amount of current either way from the little opamps.

[reeltrouble1]

blah blah blah

[Yashu]

Go blah yourself.

[cubdog]

This is one for the time capsule. Oh yeah, I have a CR-2020.

cubdog