Worried about new set-up

[Bass_Pedal]

I picked up a pair of RtiA7's in early January. Purchasing them spurred me on to re-building my entire 2 channel set up. I decided to go with seperates, because I wanted to get serious. Here is what I put together:

Mains – RtiA7's
Pre-Amp – Adcom GFP-750
Amp – Adcom GFA-545
CD Player – Cambridge Audio Azure 640c V2

It looks ok on paper, but after putting it together and listening to it for a while I have a major issue, it sounds bright, WAY bright!! The bass is fine and the mid-range is even better, but the highs are just too harsh and unpleasant. The first thing I figured was that I hadn't broken in the speakers and CDP. I played the 640 for 24 hours straight for the recommended burn-in. As for the speakers, I have been using them for HT and TV since I got them, so 2 ½ months of very regular use should have made a dent into the break-in process. After burning in the 640 I detected no real difference, which leads me to my questions, where did I go wrong? Is the Adcom 545 not powerful enough to drive these speakers? Would that make them sound harsh on the high end? Is this amp bright on it's own? Could it be the pre-amp? I have tried it in both active and passive modes, active is a little brighter... I am at a loss, replacing the amp would be the easiest solution at this time, if anyone has a suggestion for a warmer sounding amp ( I can spend about $600) , I am all ears, if that is in fact the problem...

Thanks.

[fatchowmein]

What type of music and specifically what were you listening to that lead to the "bright" conclusion?

The RTiA series were designed for home theatre and, yes, they can be used for music listening as some folks do well with them and warmer gear.

If you're looking for warmer sounds, try the LSi series, specifically the LSi15's or LSi9's.

I've never owned the Adcom's you've listed so I'll defer to someone else on the forum who have had experience with them.

[dragon1952]

A nice tube preamp or tube integrated would likely help. That's assuming it isn't the recordings. I would say your speakers and CDP are going to be on the detailed side so bad recordings are probably going to be really bad. But I would think you could build around the speakers and source and be OK. Setup could play a major part also.

[F1nut]

Welcome to the wonderful world of audio.

On paper means diddly squat as you've found out. Did the speakers sound bright when you used them for HT? Is the room hard? What brand of cables are you using? Can you borrow a different amp, pre amp, CDP or speakers? You're probably going to have to try different pieces of gear to figure out the issue. Synergy is what you are after and right now you don't have it.

That said, some feel the RTiA series are better suited for HT. Some feel Adcom gear is grainy, which results in a bright or harsh top end.

[BaggedLancer]

Tube buffer maybe?

[heiney9]

Your weak link is the speakers. LSi's would be a much better 2-ch match for music listening. Your gear is excellent, especially the pre. I've had a 545 for 20 years and never had an issue with it. It's not bright or grainy. As nice as the the new RTiA line is the LSi's are still a better choice for music. If it were me I'd start there.

H9

[tcrossma]

I have the GFP-750 and do not think that's your problem -- it's a very smooth, enjoyable pre. I don't have any first-hand experience with your other gear, but i'd agree that it's the speakers that are likely the cause.

[heiney9]

On other thing not mentioned so far is all speakers need to break in. You said you've been listening "for awhile", how long is awhile? It may take 200-300 hours for the tweeters to break in. They may sound better after break in but still not be what you want.

H9

[john22614]

My hunch is that it's the speakers.....although the RTi's are strong and clear, I've always felt they are a little too bright for music.....if you can try out a pair of LSi's at home, you may decide to go with them instead. Would be interested in what you think if you can do that.

[Bass_Pedal]

Thanks for all the responses. I was afraid the consensus decision would be the speakers as the issue. Unfortunately, of all the gear I can replace "under the radar" , without my wife noticing that is, the speakers are the only thing I can't get away with, especially since I just got them a couple months ago. Let me answer some of the follow-up questions:

I listen to a fairly decent range of stuff, from Miles Davis to Wilco to Peter Gabriel to Foo Fighters to Frank Sinatra. Admittedly the straight ahead rock stuff sounds the brightest. I only listen to store bought redbook discs so low bitrate bootlegs aren't the issue.

For HT these speakers sound great, no issues but I am not nearly as scrutinizing when watching a movie or TV then I am when listening to music.

As for wiring and interconnects, I us a pair of medium range "The Chord Company" cables from my CDP to the pre-amp. The rest of my interconnects are Monster THX(all hype I would suspect) The speakers are wired up with 8 gauge cable, with banana plug terminations.

If a tube amp would help, I would be willing to go that route, but I am afraid of tube amps because I know nothing about them. I have noticed that they cost quite a bit more than solid state when comparing power ratings. Does anyone have a suggestion for a tube amp powerful enough to run these speakers?

Thanks again for all the input thus far.

[venomclan]

I think it is your speakers also. Swapping out other items may help a little. Try to dampen your room also. Good luck.
Venom

[ohskigod]

might want to look into some cheap sound treatments. I had a HUGE brightness problem in my 2 channel area that a little sound foam in the primary reflection areas worked WONDERS.

I would swap out that Adcom. in the right applications, Adcoms are great amps, but I have heard more than a few complaints of brightness/grainy issues when there used.

swapping the amp would probably be your cheapest option to try. a warmer amp might be your cup of tea. Carver would fit the bill as they sound on the warm side (I picture Russ and Doro convulsing as they read this..lol).

Doro's tube buffer idea could certainly work wonders, but this might have to be a multiangle approach. Try a Warmer amp, then some sound treatments if possible (primarily on the side walls at ear level 1/2 between you and the speakers)

a tube pre might help too.


eesh man, welcome to the joys and hell of 2 channel :D
I rolled through ALOT of gear before getting things the way I like. I learned the hard way how sound treatments are a big part of it. when you run tube gear with bozaks and things still sound broght at louder volumes, you learn FAST that you got room issues

I assume you got those speakers new, so I wouldnt be fast to swap them...since you will probably get crushed selling them used compared to what you paid retail. Thats not to say trying different speakers down the road should not be on your agenda.

[adam2434]

You certainly have a nice CD player, but another idea would be a NOS (non-oversampling) DAC. They generally have a mellow, laid-back sound that folks often describe as more "analog-sounding".

A DAC with a tube output/buffer might have the same effect.

These DACs are highly regarded and fit within your $600 range.
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0406/mhdt_laboratory_dac.htm

Ultimately however, it could just be that the speakers are too aggressive for your tastes.

[Music Joe]

Radio Shack Gold Series Interconnects might fly 'under the radar'.
Not expensive and can tame 'some' brightness.

[markmarc]

Start with your room:

Are all the surfaces hard? What is the ceiling height? To test take some bath towels or other heavy fabric (one of my readers went so far as to hang sleeping bags to see if that would help as a test) and find a way to hang them on the walls.

The Adcom 545 is a fine amp, even if it is a bit grainy. Remember, start with simplest/easiest solution first. Also makes sure to get at least 100 hours of break-in on the speakers.

[Bass_Pedal]

Once again, thanks for all the responses.

My living room is hardwood floor mostly covered by an area rug. The speakers are sitting on the hardwood right in front of the carpeted area. The ceiling is 10 ft high and is concrete (it’s an apartment). Behind my speakers is a window which is always covered with a two layers of curtains.

As for the tube buffer, the Musical Fidelity X-10 v3 is being sold by someone in my area for $250. I am still digesting the various reviews of it on the net. Some are good, some say it made things worse. I will probably take dorokusai's advise and try it out, if I don’t like it I can re-sell it for the same money.

As for an outboard DAC, I think I will try a few other options before I got that route, I spent a pretty penny on the 640 because of its dual DACs. Hopefully they aren’t a contributing factor to the brightness issue.

I admit that these speakers could use some more break-in time, and they will get it, as I use them everyday for 4 or more hours a day!

Thanks

[dkg999]

The Cambridge Audio CDP will need about 300 hours for the DAC to break in. I wouldn't make any changes until you give it time, and your speakers time, to break in. I had the CA 640 v1 CDP and it really changed the high end after the DAC had time to break in.

[mulveling]

If it's "way too bright", such that it requires a drastic change, I wouldn't assume a amps/preamps/etc solution at first - they can make a big difference, but rarely so drastic.

Play with speaker positioning, seating area positioning, toe-in, furniture arrangements. Trial and error. A LOT of it.

Break the speakers in more. I've found that burn-in makes a huge difference on some transducers, but no so much on others. Just depends. If it doesn't change after 400 hours, it's probably not going to. Problem is, I've had a transducer that really seems to take that long to blossom.

Deadening the front wall (wall behind speakers) is generally a very good idea. I like using 8-12 Auralex SonoFlat tiles; they're decent looking (when mounted in various patterns with each tile in a "diamond" orientation), fairly effective, and have a good fire rating. This will remain a good investment even if you change speakers.

It may still turn out the speakers are not to your taste, in which case I would change those out before experimenting with the electronics gear :(

[Music Joe]

The ceiling is 10 ft high and is concrete

This could be it, a difficult one indeed. Low volume & nearfield?

Concrete floors are usually covered with something, but a ceiling...
Imagine the reverse, a concrete bare foor. And ceiling treatments usually for first reflection points will come up short. Treatment of a major portion of a concrete ceiling for reflections in a ?rented? space again difficult.
The prescribed solution for a concrete wall is framing and sheetrock :(

[Bass_Pedal]

Wow that's disconcerting. I don't know if there is much a can do about the ceiling as it is indeed, rented. But it does make perfect sense... I will have to look into possible solutions short of sheetrock...

[mulveling]

Don't be disconcerted. By far, I'd rather deal with a concrete floor & ceiling than the typical flimsy construction that's standard in most apartments. I'm not sure concrete is really worse than sheet-rock from an acoustic standpoint. There's benefits from the sturdy construction - at least the concrete won't ring like a bell...not to mention the superior isolation it provides from neighbors. Gonna get a turntable? Suspended wood floor is your enemy (I'm assuming your floor is sturdy too).

The SonoFlat tiles would be a good way to treat the ceiling, if you deem it necessary. No need to go whole hog; good coverage of the 1st reflection point area should do (approximately half way between you and the speakers).

So far I've not yet found it really necessary to do ceiling treatment, but of course different rooms and speakers here.

[Music Joe]

Yeah, I mentioned the sheetrock and frame thing more as a 'moral for the story' for block or concrete basement walls.
Concretes solidity is a very effective reflector of wideband of frequencies.
Even a fully deadened floor won't adress what travels upwards. That ceiling is gonna bounce sound so very well. I don't think texture paints will even tame concrete bounce. The 10' height is nice but will make those main reflection points large.

You could try a small diy project....take a strip of card board wide enough to be stable on top of the speaker and long enough to put two folds in so as to make a hood for the speaker.
Wrap it with a large enough towel to go around it about three turns, fold each end down place it on top of the speaker and extend it over the baffle-face as needed.
This might show how much ceiling is in the bright sonics equation. Good luck :)

[a_mattison]

H9, Is that the Cambridge CDP that we tried out on my RTI70's that made is want to tear our eardrums out?

Bass Pedal, Welcome to the forum. Do you have another source you could swap out to see if there is any drastic change in the brightness? The RTi's are going to be a bit bright, but if my memory is correct, we tried that CDP one day while swapping out gear and it was pretty bright.

[Bass_Pedal]

Thanks a mattison, I pulled out my my old Pioneer DV 563A universal player and dusted off my even older DAC Magic 2 and hooked them up to the pre-amp for a listen. Sure enough in direct A-B comparisons the 640 was a little bit brighter, but was also more detailed and had a fuller sound overall. As a previous post mentioned, I think I still have some more burn-in time to go before some of that brightness from the CDP clears up.

A co-worker of mine is trying to sell an Acurus A-200, he is going to loan it to me for a bit, I will see if that makes any difference.

[ben62670]

The ceiling can be treated with acoustic sails to reduce reflections.

[venomclan]

You can also try some different toe in positions that may effect the tweeter dispersion. You would be amazed by how little movement can effect the sound. I lived in a condo with concrete ceilings like your with a Cambridge 640v.1. I liked the sound but had to fiddle a bit. I stuffed the power ports with foam in different degrees and it tweaked the sound to my liking. Before you go out and buy more gear, try all the free to inexpensive mods. Hopefully they will help.
Venom

[VXR8]

Hi Bass_Pedal,

Another option as people are referring to toe in is to raise the tweeter above ear level. I have the also "bright" RTi10s for which I have on 12 inch stands - this also has tamed the sound.

Having said that, I too will soon be upgrading to the LSi series as I want more musical speakers - for me it is 80% music and 20% HT. Worth a try and good luck.

[Mike Reeter]

I was having the same problem with our RTi12's the tweeter was just too much...finally switched out speaker cable to some Signal Cable Ultras and the difference was day/night.

Give everything a chance to "settle" in and then start making some tweeks.

[Bass_Pedal]

Thanks for the ideas,

I am going to try to elevate the speakers tomorrow, it's worth a try.

As for the "Signal Cable Ultras", my interest is peaked! I wasn't aware that speaker cable could make such a difference. I did a web search and didn't come up with much. Are they available from the manufacturer or are they sold at local shops?

Thanks

[Mike Reeter]

Thanks for the ideas,

I am going to try to elevate the speakers tomorrow, it's worth a try.

As for the "Signal Cable Ultras", my interest is peaked! I wasn't aware that speaker cable could make such a difference. I did a web search and didn't come up with much. Are they available from the manufacturer or are they sold at local shops?

Thanks

Tell Frank you are a Club Polk member and receive a 5% discount.

http://signalcable.com/index.html

Not saying these cables are a "cure all" but they made a huge difference in the top end of our RTi's...really took the edge off,but midrange clarity is still there...you might try a used pair just to give em' a whirl.

[tcrossma]

Signal Cable has a 30-day money back guarantee, so order yourself up a pair -- nothing to lose. My guess is that you'll want to keep them.

[Bass_Pedal]

I'm going to do that today! If this $150 fix works, I will be an extremely happy man. I'll keep everyone posted as I'm sure others thinking of purchasing these speakers for music will want to know how this cable works with them. I'm also working on speaker placement and room acoustics in the mean time.

Thanks again.

[Bass_Pedal]

So it's been a couple of weeks,

During this time I've been working on all kinds of variations on speaker placement as well as room acoustics and listening location. I also did what many would say was a step backward... It occurred to me that I had never listened to the Rtia7s using my HK AVR 8000 for amplification. I knew it was a relatively powerful amp in it's own right (rated higher that the Adcom) but assumed that a separate power amp would be better. Much to my surprise there was an improvement in the top end, while still bright, not bridal like it was before. I did some A/B comparisons just to make sure I wasn't inventing things, specifically I listened to the extended guitar solo from "Impossible Germany" off of Wilco's Sky Blue Sky. There was a definite increase in warmth and reduction in harshness. I've been using the HK since then. On top of this I received my Signal Cable Ultra speaker cables yesterday. All I can say about them is WOW! More than anything else, I noticed an increase in the width of the sound stage and a definite improvement in the separation of instruments. An excellent product to be sure. As for the reason I got them in the first place (to reduce brightness) so far I have noticed a significant difference, however as mentioned in a previous post, they aren't “cure-alls” They wont transform an RtiA7 into an Lsi15 (unfortunately:( )

While I realize with only about 4 months of moderate use of these speakers there is still some break in to be done, however despite the improvements I have been able to achieve (also I burned in my CDP for over 180 hours) I think that these speakers are simply bright by nature, whether that will change in any sighificant way over time remains to be seen. I don't want to give up without giving them their fair shake, but I do have to admit I have been on the look out for a pair of Lsi9's on the used market for the last couple of weeks...

[F1nut]

Cables need to burn in also, but I don't think that's going to change the bright nature of your speakers.

[Gretsch6136]

Hey Bass Pedal,

This may sound too simplistic, but have you tried turning the treble knob down a bit?

[Fongolio]

I am using the RTiA7's with both my Pioneer Elite and a Carver 772 with hardwood floors covered in throw rugs and have never found them too bright. With the Carver they sound fantastic. A little brighter with the Pioneer but not annoying. They are now about 4 months old.

[maximillian]

Cables need to burn in also, but I don't think that's going to change the bright nature of your speakers.

Curious, could you point me to a site that explains this phenomenon? Seems like BS to me. IAAEE, BTW.

Thx.

[F1nut]

What phenomenon?

IAAEE? Are you an electrical engineer?

[strider]

Curious, could you point me to a site that explains this phenomenon? Seems like BS to me. IAAEE, BTW.

Thx.

The site that pops into my mind first is my basement. It's where I have my rig set up.

What phenomenon?

IAAEE? Are you an electrical engineer?

Sounds to me like he's going down the hill of his first roller coaster....

[tonyb]

Don't ya know that if an internet "site" doesn't exist,then neither does the subject at hand.Didn't pops ever tell you there is no sustitute for experience?

[F1nut]

What is this IAAEE, I wondered? Well, curiosity got the better of me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Association_for_the_Advancement_of_E thnology_and_Eugenics

Hmmmm.....not sure what that has to do with audio, but whatever.

[tonyb]

I- international
A-association of
A-assfart
E-emitting
E-engineers

Sounds more like it..:D

[treitz3]

Hehehe.

[maximillian]

What phenomenon?

IAAEE? Are you an electrical engineer?

Yes, I am an EE. Still waiting on a technical explanation of cable break-in. Strider, if your basement is the explanation, do you mind shipping it to upstate NY so I can analyze it? TonyB, I would welcome any source, the Internet is just convenient.

[treitz3]

.......and we're off!

[Face]

Break the lock off your wallet, buy some good gear and good cables, and you'll find out for yourself.

[maximillian]

.......and we're off!

Agreed... personally I don't care, and I don't want to thread-jack anymore than I already have. I will not be responding on this issue.

[maximillian]

I have a set of RTi6's for fronts that are quite bright for music. If I turn them up in order to get adequate bass response, they are way too bright. Supplementing the bass response with other speakers (generally not recommended) allows me to keep the volume down on the 6's. Then it sounds quite nice.

Perhaps if you get a musical sub to push the lower end, then you can turn the volume down on the A7's.

[F1nut]

Agreed... personally I don't care, and I don't want to thread-jack anymore than I already have. I will not be responding on this issue.

Interesting.

I'm sure you and I could have a civil conversation about the matter at hand, I'll start. I don't know of any websites that address your question/doubts as I've never looked for one, although I'm sure if one looked they could find just about anything on the net. Instead, I rely on my trusty ears, which have never let me down to date and they tell me that burn in is real. If you do a search here, you'll find a whole lot of other folks whom have heard it too.

I'll have to take it that you don't believe and/or have not heard this, which begs the next question. What cables have you tried/listened to and with what gear?

[maximillian]

Interesting.

I'm sure you and I could have a civil conversation about the matter at hand, I'll start.


I am sure we could, but this isn't the thread to do it in.


I'll have to take it that you don't believe and/or have not heard this, which begs the next question. What cables have you tried/listened to and with what gear?

I have not heard the difference. My cables are rather generic (monoprice) and I only have the RTi line of speakers so I can't say if I could hear the difference if I had good cables. Also, I still have noob ears. My general rule of thumb is to find the heaviest gauge stranded wire with gold connectors where applicable. However, being an EE I don't see the technical reason for "burn-in". Also, I have found some websites that say it's BS, but there are many people who would fight to defend the opposite. But again, this isn't the thread for this I am only replying simply to be civil. I don't want to hijack this thread any more on this topic. Sorry.

[GEBBY44]

The Signal Ultra's were a good fix for my friend with a similar setup with RTi10's and yes they will sound much better with more time. After about 100 hours, the Ultra's really opened up. Not that they didn't sound good before...Once the cables have been broken in well, you may want to try switching back to the Adcom. Although chances are if you don't like a bright system, it will still be too bright.

[heiney9]

....

[F1nut]

Max, don't worry this is hardly a hijack as hijacks go around here. I don't understand the technical reason for burn in either, but then again, I don't really care. In fact, there's a whole lot about this hobby were technical reasons don't make sense or even matter.

To borrow H9's sig by a highly respected gentleman who has been in this hobby for a long time, "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not."--Nelson Pass

I will say that the further up the audio ladder one climbs, the more evident things like cable burn in become.

Enjoy!

[Bass_Pedal]

I managed to acquire a pair of used Lsi9's from a local seller for $500 CND including stands. My ears have been opened to a whole new world. To say I am impressed with them is a gross understatement. Warm rich highs, strong clear mids and ridicules bass for such a small "bookshelf" speaker. It saddens me a little that I didn't make the RtiA7's work because they are a fine speaker, especially for HT and I know many enjoy them for music as well. I suppose as many have said, it's all a matter of personal taste. All I know is, I have solved my problem and can now discover my CD collection all over again. Thanks for all the help and suggestions. :)