Yet another speaker cable gauge/wiring question

[mmadden28]

I realize that there are many variables when choosing the best wire for the best sound for a particular application, and a lot of that depends on the equipment you are connecting together, the room, etc, etc, etc.

Some of the suggestions, etc, are highly subjective-I think I have an ear for subtleties, but I am not entirely sure. I don't have any audiophile friends able to come by my place to give my setup a listen, and my wife could care less (she was quite content with my old setup-and would probably be content with the volume at -30db). I may not realize some of the differences until I get the entire system tuned correctly, so I want to get some of the basics configured right based on responses from the members of this forum, before I waste time in other areas when my whole problem may very well be related to the wiring or size of wiring I am using.

I am sure this subject has been covered over and over again, and I have been researching and asking my own questions in others' posts, but most of what I have found thus far is specific to a listeners individual setup which may vary from mine in one or two areas, I haven't necessarily found my answers for my setup yet. I also have existing wiring in place-many others were requesting advice on running new wiring. So I will ask my questions in this new thread-(I don't want to hijack any threads.) Keep in mind I am looking for answers specific to my setup, not that I should use this cable brand vs. that cable brand.
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I realize that any loss of highs in higher gauge cable may also be subjective, but I would like to reference the following quote from a related post question,

The longer the length the higher the Ga needs to be to overcome resistance. Here is the bad part. Capacitance also increases. You lose some highs, and some detail. I have run 14 ga in wire lengths up to 35'. Not really a problem. Some would suggest 12ga. The rear sound tracks are usually capped off at upper levels knowing the limitations of long runs in movie theaters never mind home systems. Now SACDs like Dark Side of the Moon have extended highs all around. <snip> Try to match the center speakers cable to the mains. If you are using a receiver for amplification you are not going to see big differences with speaker cables. That being said I still recommend a decent set of cables for the front.
Ben

I can still drink a milkshake through a skinny straw, but its not going to be as satisfying or as easy as it would be getting more through a thicker straw, but then again, if I drink too fast I could get a brain freeze or miss out on a lot of the milkshake that just bypasses the taste buds (highs?). I'm just trying to find a happy medium.

I currently have Monster XP speaker wire (16 Ga?) run to all of my speakers, including in the walls to my surrounds/rears. I did this a few years ago when I moved into the new house. I am not against replacing all the wires-but I don't want to do it if it’s not really necessary. (I can use the old wire to help pull the new wire in easy enough). If I run new cable (in the walls) it will probably be BlueJeans, Monoprice or similar.

My setup is in my signature, but it’s new and constantly evolving-right now I am running in a 5.1 setup (eventually 7.1 and zone 2/3). Currently I have all 5 channels running from the Onkyo SR805 Pre-outs (via 6' monoprice premium interconnects) to an Emotiva XPA-5 200 watt per channel amp then of course to all of my speakers (Rti12s, CSiA6, FXi3s). (I am still playing around with what speakers to use in the rears/surrounds hence the extra speakers listed in my sig.) I may even put all the surrounds on the SR805 and bi-amp the fronts with the XPA-5.

My L, R, and C use about 8-12' of wire. The surrounds, use probably 40' each.
I am not Bi-Wired yet, but I did replace the stamped metal shorting bar on my fronts with the same speaker wire I am using.
My sub and mains are currently configured with the 80 Hz crossover freq.

I usually use my system for Home Theater, but when I get the chance I turn it up (LOUD-like in the + dB range according to the Onkyo volume)) and listen to music (and this includes Floyd, Pantera, George Winston (solo Piano), some new age, some classical, you name it-list is way way too long to list here). I just got an SACD/DVD-A player, and bought some new SACDs, etc. I also pulled out my CD collection to try out with this new rig (as opposed to my mp3 collection). So far I am finding that I am liking 2 channel for music over surround-but I am not done experimenting yet. It might end up depending on the source music when all is said and done. .

OK, finally for my questions (sorry I ramble):

1.) Should I replace the wire for my surrounds? Or is the 16 gauge sufficient.
1b.) If replace is suggested, should I use 12? 14? or perhaps use a 4 conductor smaller gauge wire twisted together?

2.) Should I replace the wire for my fronts (L,C,R) with 14?
2b.) I have extra Monster XP (16ga?), should I just double the wire (twist two 16s together at each end)? What will two 16s equal?
2c.) Should I bi-wire the fronts? Use one monster XP 16 ga to the high side and one to the low? 14 to each?

3) If I bi-amp-will that make any difference in the gauge I should use?

4) If I set my speakers to Full Range as opposed to an 80 Hz crossover-will that impact the gauge or wire method I should use?

Thanks
-Madden

[dorokusai]

No x 4.

[zingo]

Nope, sorry. This forum has reached it's wire gauge post limit. :p

You are fine with what you have. It's a great set-up. Now, if you want to start experimenting, that's a different story as you could try to tailer the sound more to your wants and needs. But, like dorokusai said, there is no NEED to.

[mantis]

Correction....

You monster xp wire is not inwall rated. You should replace it with 14-2 guage with CL3 rated. Liberity, Beldon , Audioquest and even Monstercable have inwall rated wire. I suggest you look into it.

for rear speakers , 14 guage is all you need. You can use the same wire for all speakers. buy a spool and rewire.

Set system in small for everything and 80hz and callibrate. This will yield really good results for both music and movies.

Forget about twisting wires together. Forget about Bi wiring. Use one of the wire companies I suggested and your system will perform fine and you will have no fire code problems.

Dan

[tinman67gz]

The one thing I can add is that using wire to replace the shorting bars supplied will make absolutely no difference. The idea of bi-wiring the speakers is that the signals of the highs get jumbled for lack of a better technical term (not sure of the technical term) by the low frequency in the length of wire, not in the shorting bars. Usually the shorting bars provided are gold plated and a very good conductor if you are single wiring.

As far as speaker wire guages, the more watts and the farther the run the thicker the wire you need.

As mantis said your Monster wire is not in wall rated. This is a code issue and a sound issue as in the walls unsheilded cable can pick up distortion from other electrical sources.

[mmadden28]

Correction....

You monster xp wire is not inwall rated. You should replace it with 14-2 guage with CL3 rated. Liberity, Beldon , Audioquest and even Monstercable have inwall rated wire. I suggest you look into it.



...As mantis said your Monster wire is not in wall rated. This is a code issue...

I knew about the code requirement for plenum rated network cable in commercial buildings, but I did not know it also applied to homes. I presumed/heard this was mainly because there is so little of it in homes to be of concern (unless of course its a newer prewired home where an inspector will be looking for it as a construction issue), whereas the big concern would be in commercial installations, there is quite a huge amount of network cabling installed, so if there were a fire a considerable amount of fumes would be emitted-and possibly travel to occupied spaces in other areas of the building not affected by the fire. Makes sense to reduce such massive emissions where possible.

However in a home its an insignificant amount compared to the fumes given off by the burning contents of the rest of the house (couch, carpet, paint, etc). Afterall, if the house burns, the non-plenum wire will burn whether its in a wall or not, so the fumes will still be emitted. Actually the contents outside the walls are likely to burn long before whatever is contained within the walls.

Is the burning emissions the reason for this code or does it have to do with a different fire safety issue?


Is this a National Code or only in certain states/localities? I would assume that this code would apply for any wiring type. Can I assume then, that the cable company installs only plenum/riser rated coax for cable TV RF runs? I never saw it offered in plenum/riser or non-plenum/riser versions, in the store, (like Cat5 type cabling is) unless of course its all plenum/riser rated.

Now don't get me wrong-I intend to replace the in-wall wire with properly rated wiring, but I just don't get it.

[mmadden28]

...and a sound issue as in the walls unsheilded cable can pick up distortion from other electrical sources.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I just don't see how running my speaker wire in the walls is going to make it any more susceptible to interference than running unshielded on the outside of the walls. I wouldn't expect to be running my speaker wire in the same 'raceway' as AC wiring anyway. The wallboard certainly isn't providing any shielding.

BlueJeans Web site has this to say about speaker cable:"...Because speakers are driven at low impedance (typically 4 or 8 ohms) and high current, speaker cables are, for all practical purposes, immune from interference from EMI or RFI, so shielding isn't required". So I would imagine they don't offer a shielded version?

I've seen some conflicting comments on this in other threads.
If, the in-wall speaker wire were shielded, how would the shielding terminate?

However I can understand this issue if we were talking about line level analog interconnects. I have seen both shielded and unshielded versions of wires for those purposes.

-Madden

[F1nut]

The one thing I can add is that using wire to replace the shorting bars supplied will make absolutely no difference.

How much do you want to bet on that one?

[tonyb]

Agree with Jesse on this one....changed out mine on the SRT's to some upgraded silver wire and made a noticable difference.Would recommend anyone still useing those brass jumpers to change them out.

[AdamRagland]

yea tony is right, i thought most jumpers were made of brass. even if you don't biwire, just replace the jumpers on the terminals with some decent speaker wire. it has always made a difference to me

[reeltrouble1]

Another johnny come lately needing to spread their cheese.

RT1

[ben62670]

AC wires are run in the walls. If you run speaker cables in the walls the runs are more likely to be parallel. Any time you run low voltage in the wall parallel with (can be a foot+ away) you are susceptible to EMI. This is why we don't run any communication wires near AC. Also another reason for this code is if an electrical staple, or someone putting a nail in the wall accidentally hit both wires you would be in varying degrees of trouble. You can cross AC lines at a ninety, but don't run in the same direction with them. BTW ditch the brass plates.

[mmadden28]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I just don't see how running my speaker wire in the walls is going to make it any more susceptible to interference than running unshielded on the outside of the walls. I wouldn't expect to be running my speaker wire in the same 'raceway' as AC wiring anyway. The wallboard certainly isn't providing any shielding.

BlueJeans Web site has this to say about speaker cable:"...Because speakers are driven at low impedance (typically 4 or 8 ohms) and high current, speaker cables are, for all practical purposes, immune from interference from EMI or RFI, so shielding isn't required". So I would imagine they don't offer a shielded version?

...

AC wires are run in the walls. If you run speaker cables in the walls the runs are more likely to be parallel. Any time you run low voltage in the wall parallel with (can be a foot+ away) you are susceptible to EMI. This is why we don't run any communication wires near AC. ....

So how does running the wire in-wall with CL3, (etc) rated wire or outside the wall with non-CL rated speaker wire make a difference with interference? To me, odds are the wire will follow the same path up the wall to the speaker.

Thanks