nitrogen in car tires for better gas mileage ?

[danger boy]

this one tire shop is claiming they can replace the air in your car tires and replace it with nitrogen and it will improve your gas mileage :confused:

anyone running with nitro in their tires?

[ben62670]

Nitrogen is much more stable than air at varying temperatures. If air was kept at the proper pressure It would yield the same results. The right air pressure yields much better millage. Who checks their tires at least once a month though. Thats where the main benefit of nitrogen comes in.

[Libertyc]

But how much does nitro cost vs. air at the gas station?

[ben62670]

But how much does nitro cost vs. air at the gas station?

A lot less than gas at $3.40 gal here:)

[brettw22]

I get my tires from Costco and they fill all tires with nitrogen.

The reason is that the molecules are bigger than regular air so it doesn't escape and deflate as quickly as normal air does. I don't know that it makes a big difference with mileage, but i rarely if ever have a tire deflate on me....

[bobman1235]

Do they suck all the regular air out of the tires before filling them with "Nitrogen" (of which air is already almost 80%)?

I call shenanigans. I've heard this elsewhere and if the result is anything more than negligible for normal cars I'd be shocked. Some places are charging ~30 bucks to do this yet I can't find one controlled study pointing to any benefit.

The majority of the claim is that less air leaks out, so checking your air pressure, which people have been told to do since the 50's, is the way to go.

[NotaSuv]

Have been using it for years..Costco will fill em for $5 or buy your tires there and its free... there is LOTS of info out there for those who do not know how to use goggle...military has been using it for years and years in plane tires...large transport companies who use it and track it, see a decrease in the use of retreads and number of flat tires ...... better tread life as the tires holds pressure longer....resulting in less down time, resulting in more profits...better gas mileage?? dont know..and if none of that matters...well its the new cool :)
will it help the average driver.. who knows?? but you do get neat lil green caps for your tires....

[bobman1235]

There's lots of "info" on both sides, for those of us who actually know how to use Google. Most "info" on the Nitrogen side reads and looks like marketing with no real numbers, outside of ridiculous anecdotal evidence, to back it up, while most skeptics have science that says that the difference in a normal car would be negligible at best.

If you're getting it for free with your tires (assuming it's not just a hidden cost added to the tire cost) then all power to you, but actually paying for it seems silly when you can just check your tire pressure any time for free.

And yes race cars and planes use them, those aren't normal situations. IN a race every tiny edge counts. And commercial aircraft tires are filled to something like 200 PSI.

[jdhdiggs]

The military "may" be using it as it isn't flammable so if a super hot chunk of metal goes through the tire, the nitrogen blow back could put the fire out rather than feeding it.

Another "possible" reason is that it is an inert gas and won't eff with the rim and or rubber, but then I doubt much would be gained except in extreme circumstances.

Just trying desperately to find a reason that this would make sense...

[cmy330go]

I think the lower moisture level of Nitrogen would be the only noticeable benefit to the average consumer. That would slow down the aging of both tires, and wheels.

I don't deny that it would also leak out slower, but I have a tough time believing it would be a significant difference.

[AdamRagland]

i just replaced my tires about 7 months ago and had nitrogen put in them. ive checked my pressure almost every week since and i am still properly inflated. also at my local tire shop it was $3 per tire to fill and its for the life of the tire. so its free for refills as long as you have that tire

[bobman1235]

I think the lower moisture level of Nitrogen would be the only noticeable benefit to the average consumer. That would slow down the aging of both tires, and wheels.

If I had ever heard of a tire rotting from the inside, I might buy this. But I've seen tires that are completely BALD from use and age on the outside that still look brand new on the inside.

I don't deny that it would also leak out slower, but I have a tough time believing it would be a significant difference.

I also don't mean to sound like I'm outright denying anything, but I am extremely skeptical, that's all.

i just replaced my tires about 7 months ago and had nitrogen put in them. ive checked my pressure almost every week since and i am still properly inflated.

My tires are new, and filled with standard air. I check them every once in a while, and almost never have to add air. Certainly no more often than every oil change, when they check and fill them anyway.

[heiney9]

Nitrogen does have some better uses over typical "air". It's expensive and the only people I know running Nitrogen in their tires are guys from the local SCCA who race every weekend. It keeps tire pressure consistent over a large heat range. As far as using it on a passenger car, it's not cost effective, but might be a good conversation piece.

H9

[tonyb]

i just replaced my tires about 7 months ago and had nitrogen put in them. ive checked my pressure almost every week since and i am still properly inflated. also at my local tire shop it was $3 per tire to fill and its for the life of the tire. so its free for refills as long as you have that tire

That would be nice,except when your 50 miles away and need air.I would rather have the 4 gallons of gas than spend 12 bucks on that baloney.Checking your tire pressure regularly is something most don't do.We have become too lazy even for that.

[PolkThug]

Nitrogen pressure doesn't flexuate as much. You can get the same benefits by just checking your tire pressure regularly and refilling with air as needed.

[cmy330go]

If I had ever heard of a tire rotting from the inside, I might buy this. But I've seen tires that are completely BALD from use and age on the outside that still look brand new on the inside.

I agree that for many this wouldn't be an issue. But for those that hold onto their cars for a long time I can definitely see where the reduced corrosion on the inside of the wheel would be beneficial. I have a buddy that works in a rim and tire shop, and he has mentioned more than once having customers with older cars that had come in for tires, and due to corrosion in the rim they had a difficult time getting the new tires to seal properly. A couple times they had to replace the wheels.

In regards to the aging of the tire itself... I can see where it would be good for those that have classic or sports cars that only see good-weather weekend drives. I doubt those tires would get changed often.

I'm not saying nitrogen filling is right for everyone. But I do think it would be beneficial in a number of applications.

[dkg999]

Lots of sport bike riders use nitrogen in their motorcycle tires. They claim it works better when abusing your tires and heating them up on track days. I've used it in my motorcycle tires, and for normal riding I don't really see much of a difference.

Of course I would have to use official Harley-Davidson recommended nitrogen in the tires of my Sportster ;)

[rskarvan]

The main reason for using N2 vs. Air in your tires is the fact that the rubber will not age as quickly. Oxidation reactions require oxygen. If the interior of the tire doesn't have it available, then the aging will only occur on the exterior surface.

So, the rubber will maintain its elastic properties BETTER with Nitrogen versus AIR.

[bobman1235]

Find me a single case of a non-defective tire that was compromised due to oxidation from the inside. One.

[rskarvan]

Source: http://pampered-guests.com/services.html

Tires

Benefits of inflating tires with nitrogen as opposed to air for you, your vehicle, other drivers on the road and the environment:

Tires run about 20% of total automotive ownership costs.
Nitrogen comprises over 78% of the Earth's atmosphere so there's no fear of introducing foreign gasses, harmful to the environment, into the air.
As many as 85% of Americans don't check their tires on a regular basis.
It takes about six months for a nitrogen inflated tire to lose a pound or two of pressure per square inch compared to just a few weeks for tires inflated with air.
Running tires at 20% under-inflation can reduce tire life by up to 50%.
Proper tire inflation can save 25,000 lives each year.
Recent studies show, tires filled with nitrogen lasted 26% longer than tires filled with air.
The United States currently produces over 250 million scrap tires each year.
Tires in landfills release toxic oils which mix with, and can contaminate, groundwater.
Burning tires for disposal releases harmful and toxic acidic fumes into the atmosphere.
Large tire fires are almost impossible to extinguish and can burn for weeks.
83% of tire problems start with low air pressure.
50% of emergency road calls are in response to tire failures.
Increases Safety
In 7 million miles of truck tire testing, nitrogen inflated tires lasted longer.
Tire failures were reduced by 50%
Tread life was increased by 25-30%
Improves Performance
Improves steering
Improves handling
Improves braking
Reduces chance of tire failure
Saves Time, Money, and Tires
Dramatically slows pressure loss from permeation
Improves fuel economy
Reduces tire oxidation
Eliminates interior wheel corrosion
Reduces running temperatures
Decreases false alarms and activation of Tire Pressure Monitoring Systems
Oxygen leaks out of tires faster. Nitrogen maintains tire pressure longer than oxygen. The oxygen molecules in compressed air are smaller and leak out three to four times faster.

[bobman1235]

Well if some company making a profit by selling the service says so, I'm sorry for ever doubting it.

[Demiurge]

I just changed the air in my tires yesterday and got topped off on blinker fluid as well. Only cost me $39.99 -- that's service! :)

[Jstas]

The main reason for using N2 vs. Air in your tires is the fact that the rubber will not age as quickly. Oxidation reactions require oxygen. If the interior of the tire doesn't have it available, then the aging will only occur on the exterior surface.

So, the rubber will maintain its elastic properties BETTER with Nitrogen versus AIR.

Prove it.

BTW, your second post mentions nothing about these astounding properties of nitrogen and its magical effects on rubber.





It was already said. The only reason nitrogen works so well is that the gas does not expand and contract nearly as much as regular compressed "air" which is made up of many different gases and has moisture in it. Because nitrogen is "dry" and is not affected by the heat ranges typically seen in an automotive tire under regular use, it maintains pressure better.

By maintaining proper pressure your mileage doesn't fluctuate and your tread life isn't really extended as much as it is maintained because the tire remains inflated properly.

Leaking gases, magical properties that make rubber better and all the other lame-brained ideas are just Internet BS. The only benefits that you might get besides the ability of nitrogen to maintain pressure is less corrosion of metals due to a lack of moisture and oxygen in the tire. Vulcanized rubber is not nearly as susceptible to oxidation as a steel or aluminum wheel. It would take much longer that the tire will typically last under normal wear to see real detrimental effects of oxidation. You get more damage through UV exposure and extreme heat cycles than oxidation of the rubber. Also, nitrogen might be slightly lighter than air, I'm not sure but that has the added benefit of reducing unsprung weight and rotational weight which will reduce the amount of energy needed to move the car. But that benefit is so minuscule that you would likely not see it in your regular usage.

[dkg999]

So if I put about 100 psi of helium in the tires on my Accord, I ought to bump up the mpg by a couple of miles per gallon :D

[sucks2beme]

Bottom line, maintain air pressure. If you can't be bothered , use nitrogen.

[heiney9]

Leaking gases

The fact that the nitrogen molecule is larger than the typical molecule of air means it will maintain proper inflation much longer (all other things being equal) compared to "typical" air as outside air pressure and temp. fluctuate.

Again, it's expensive and there are some small benefits in the right situation. That situation isn't in a passenger car used for daily commutes.

H9

[bobman1235]

The "typical" molecule of air is nitrogen.

[heiney9]

But how much does nitro cost vs. air at the gas station?

Around here an impromptu survey shows $7.95 a tire. vs. free or many stations now charge $1 for air.

[ben62670]

Has anyone noticed the price of gas? If you get one mpg better fuel economy you certainly have offset the cost of the nitrogen.

[heiney9]

The "typical" molecule of air is nitrogen.

Yes it is 78% Nitrogen, but that's not 100%. The fact is a pure Nitrogen molecule is larger..........so what's your point? Again as I stated several times the advantages are minimal and only for the right situation. There is a reason race cars run pure Nitrogen rather than "typical" air. So far that's the only place, IMO, there is an advantage.

H9

[heiney9]

Has anyone noticed the price of gas? If you get one mpg better fuel economy you certainly have offset the cost of the nitrogen.

True, but that's if all other things remain equal. There are several other "no cost" or "low cost" things that can be done which give a better cost ratio than switching to Nitrogen. Just ensuring your tires are properly inflated every time you go out is free and will yield 1 MPG or better at no cost.

Driving habits and methods, by changing to a less aggressive driving style you can improve mileage. Again that's free. Using proper weight oil for each season. While that's not free, part of the typical maintenance require oil changes so why not make them beneficial for better gas mileage. If done right no "extra" cost is incurred.

Regular tune-ups, again while not free should be done regularly and can save a few MPG's here and there.

H9

[ben62670]

If done right no "extra" cost is incurred.

H9
This is where I fail. I don't get air unless I see, or feel that the air is low in the tires. This study has been beaten to death, but like 95% of the tires on the road today are under inflated. The under inflation does cause many of the problems that rat has so nicely copied, and pasted for us on page one.

Ben

[heiney9]

This is where I fail. I don't get air unless I see, or feel that the air is low in the tires. This study has been beaten to death, but like 95% of the tires on the road today are under inflated. The under inflation does cause many of the problems that rat has so nicely copied, and pasted for us on page one.

Ben

I agree. I am a little anal about checking tire pressure only because I know it almost always leads to premature wear. When you are running a 45 series Summer rated tire that is very soft it makes a big difference in life expectancy if you run it while not properly inflated.

I run snow tires in the Winter and I'm constantly checking the inflation because those suckers are expensive and I want to get the longest most even wear out of them I can because that may mean the difference between getting an extra snow season or not.

It also seems the more high performance the tire is the more sensitive it is to over/under inflation while driving. I can always tell by how my car rides or steers if the tire pressure is low/high by ~3psi or so with Summer tires.

That being said I still wouldn't run Nitrogen at $7.95 a tire. If I could get it free then I'd run it for the hell of it.

H9

[Jstas]

There is a reason race cars run pure Nitrogen rather than "typical" air. So far that's the only place, IMO, there is an advantage.

H9

What?

Maybe in some sanctioning bodies nitrogen is used but I was actually racing this past Sunday and NOBODY had nitrogen tanks on hand to fill tires with nitrogen. The closest thing to nitrogen was bonded with oxygen and getting squirted into engines. It was drag racing too where the added benefit of nitrogen not being susceptible to heat changes would be great overall.





You guys and your theories. :rolleyes:

[heiney9]

What?

Maybe in some sanctioning bodies nitrogen is used but I was actually racing this past Sunday and NOBODY had nitrogen tanks on hand to fill tires with nitrogen. The closest thing to nitrogen was bonded with oxygen and getting squirted into engines. It was drag racing too where the added benefit of nitrogen not being susceptible to heat changes would be great overall.





You guys and your theories. :rolleyes:

Your need to always be right.................when you're not is really annoying.

Not theory but a fact............ Straight form Nascar.com and I'm sure I could find other.

Is there anything you can put in a tire to stabilize the pressures? Certain elements are more stable over a wider range of temperatures. -- John Vrba

Great question, John. Most folks, myself included, assume NASCAR teams use the same ol' simple air in their race tires that we get from the pump beside the economy-size vacuum cleaner down at the BP for a quarter. That's not the case.

NASCAR teams use nitrogen to pressurize tires. Nitrogen -- the driest form of air NASCAR will allow teams to use -- contains no moisture and therefore cannot expand. Any moisture present in the tire was already there when the tire was mounted.



:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: Back at ya!

[heiney9]

I was actually racing this past Sunday and NOBODY had nitrogen tanks on hand to fill tires with nitrogen

Well I know several SCCA guys who race locally and use Nitrogen to inflate tires. It has it's benefits on the track.

H9

[danger boy]

so then i'm no longer an airhead, now I'm a nitrohead? :p ;) :eek:

[rskarvan]

BTW, your second post mentions nothing about these astounding properties of nitrogen and its magical effects on rubber.

You are full of crap. My 2nd post specifically mentions "reduced tire oxidation".

[heiney9]

Here's another quote from Orion Motorsports-a racing organization.

Do I need Nitrogen?

The use of Nitrogen is cheap insurance. The problem with Nitrogen has been getting it. Until now we had to store compressed Nitrogen in air tanks. The capacity was just too small to really depend on having it available. This is about to change.

In co-operation with Ingersoll Rand, Orion/Pirelli will now have Nitrogen available at all national races. With the help of an on-board Nitrogen generator, we will be able to produce more than enough Nitrogen to fill every tire in the pit many times over. This will ensure all riders have access to it at all times. There will be a nominal fee but the performance value is well worth the cost.

H9

P.s. I can find hundreds more showing it's prevalent use in racing both amateur and professional. Perhaps you should try is Jstas. Rather than arguing about something you have only a very narrow view of. Just because you don't use it doesn't mean it's not a very popular practice in racing.

[danger boy]

can i use it in my lawnmower tires so I get my lawn mowed faster?

[heiney9]

can i use it in my lawnmower tires so I get my lawn mowed faster?

If your lawn mower has inflatable tires rather than solid tires.............GO FOR IT. You'll be able to sit down and watch sports on Sunday much sooner running Nitrogen. :p

[Joe08867]

My brother in-law had the tires on his Expedition done. I went for a ride with him and he asked if I noticed anything about the truck.

I said it seemed like he had the shocks done or something to that effect.

He told me the only thing they did was fill his tires with Nitrogen. Now I do not know if the tires were inflated correctly when I rode in the truck previous to nitrogen but I did notice a difference.

[ninerbj]

This may be way off subject, but the "debate" over air and nitrogen reminds me of a lot of the cable debates that have taken place over the years here.
I would be interested in seeing how many people on this nitrogen for your tires bandwagon actually think cables make a difference and visa versa.
I'm not trying to pick a cable fight by any means...I would just be interested in the mind set and range of "believers".

An example would be to do some type of scientific study to see if a group of people that honestly believe that a power cord makes a sonic difference in their system, would be more likely (by sheer numbers) to want to believe in things like Bigfoot, UFO's, Ghost...stuff like that.

[danger boy]

maybe at PolkFest08 we can settle this once and for all.. that cables do make a difference.. ;)

[agfrost]

Anyone got any links from reputable sources for these "facts" about nitrogen? I teach chemistry and I don't claim to be an expert in the physical chemistry problems that are at the heart of this discussion.

But I don't buy some of the arguments I've heard here. Oxygen is a smaller atom than is nitrogen (75 pm vs. 73 pm for Nitrogen). Both gases exist as diatomic molecules (N2 and O2), but the N-N bond is a triple bond whereas the O-O bond is a double bond. The trend there is that the more bonds, the shorter the bond length. This suggests that oxygen should be the larger molecule.

The ideal gas law (PV=nRT) is generic for any gas (as long as the pressure isn't ridiculously high or the temperature ridiculously low) and states that the pressure of any gas is directly related to its temperature. I'd need to hear from a pretty damn good source to make me believe that pure N2 responds differently to temperature changes than does a mixture of ~79% N2, ~20% O2, ~1% other gases.

Another gas law that seems potentially applicable is Graham's Law of Effusion, which says that a lighter gas will seep through a tiny hole faster than a heavier gas. (That's why my son's cheapo balloon from the haircut place is on the ground after one night, since helium is the 2nd lightest gas) Nitrogen should leak out of a tire's pores faster than does oxygen, as N2 is 28 g/mol and O2 is 32 g/mol.

All of these aspects seem to me to show that N2 should actually be inferior to O2 as a tire filler. The one area that N2 is clearly superior to O2 is reactivity, which others have stated above. I think that oxygen's reactivity with the metal of the rim may be more important than its reaction with the tire itself, particularly over time at elevated temperatures. Raise your hand if you've ever had a problem with the seal on a tire mounted on an aluminum wheel.

If you're enough of a glutton for punishment to make it this far into this endless post, I'll say that I wouldn't be floored if there's some science beyond what I know that can explain some reason for N2 superiority, but I wouldn't be shocked if it was just the tire-mounting industry finding a way to introduce a fee that the banking industry would be proud of.

Jay

[jdhdiggs]

I personally love the thought that N2 is a bigger molecule that H2O, O2, CO2, etc... And that makes a difference. That, and getting around the whole PV=nRT thing... Very intriguing...

[heiney9]

Dry Nitrogen is virtually insusceptible to to the forces of heat and atmospheric pressure because it has no moisture in it. That's why Nascar, F1 and many other racing teams encourage the use of Nitrogen. In fact the FAA mandates it's use in certain types of airplanes for the landing gear tires.

I have no idea about the hype stating it saves fuel, extends life of rubber, etc. It does have a positive effect in one area and that's allowing much more consistent tire pressure when used in extreme heat and atmospheric fluctuations conditions; such as racing environments and high altitude airplane flights.

Now if it's improperly used to inflate a tire (meaning the tire already has moisture present or the process used adds moisture) then it becomes less and less effective at combating the effects of heat and atmospheric fluctuations on a tires ability to maintain a consistent pressure.

H9

[Demiurge]

Ford.

[agfrost]

Dry Nitrogen is virtually insusceptible to to the forces of heat and atmospheric pressure because it has no moisture in it.


Do you have a link that explains this? I'm genuinely curious.

[rskarvan]

Agfrost.... Finally, someone that speaks from FACTS vs. fiction.

And, I am raising my hand because I have had problems sealing tires on Aluminum rims.

[heiney9]

Anyone got any links from reputable sources for these "facts" about nitrogen? I teach chemistry and I don't claim to be an expert in the physical chemistry problems that are at the heart of this discussion.

But I don't buy some of the arguments I've heard here. Oxygen is a smaller atom than is nitrogen (75 pm vs. 73 pm for Nitrogen). Both gases exist as diatomic molecules (N2 and O2), but the N-N bond is a triple bond whereas the O-O bond is a double bond. The trend there is that the more bonds, the shorter the bond length. This suggests that oxygen should be the larger molecule.

The ideal gas law (PV=nRT) is generic for any gas (as long as the pressure isn't ridiculously high or the temperature ridiculously low) and states that the pressure of any gas is directly related to its temperature. I'd need to hear from a pretty damn good source to make me believe that pure N2 responds differently to temperature changes than does a mixture of ~79% N2, ~20% O2, ~1% other gases.

Another gas law that seems potentially applicable is Graham's Law of Effusion, which says that a lighter gas will seep through a tiny hole faster than a heavier gas. (That's why my son's cheapo balloon from the haircut place is on the ground after one night, since helium is the 2nd lightest gas) Nitrogen should leak out of a tire's pores faster than does oxygen, as N2 is 28 g/mol and O2 is 32 g/mol.

All of these aspects seem to me to show that N2 should actually be inferior to O2 as a tire filler. The one area that N2 is clearly superior to O2 is reactivity, which others have stated above. I think that oxygen's reactivity with the metal of the rim may be more important than its reaction with the tire itself, particularly over time at elevated temperatures. Raise your hand if you've ever had a problem with the seal on a tire mounted on an aluminum wheel.

If you're enough of a glutton for punishment to make it this far into this endless post, I'll say that I wouldn't be floored if there's some science beyond what I know that can explain some reason for N2 superiority, but I wouldn't be shocked if it was just the tire-mounting industry finding a way to introduce a fee that the banking industry would be proud of.

Jay

Grahams Law is covered here: Just another POV that may or not be true.

http://www.getnitrogen.org/pdf/graham.pdf

[heiney9]

Do you have a link that explains this? I'm genuinely curious.

I'm not sure if you are looking for "THE" authority but here are a few.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question594.htm

http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/nascar5.htm

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/07/31/tech/main1851979.shtml

http://www.worktruckonline.com/Article/Story/2007/09/What-You-Should-Know-About-Nitrogen-Filled-Tires.aspx

There are literally hundreds to thousands of articles, posts, etc. about Nitrogen. These are a few. Take it for what it's worth.

I personally won't be buying any Nitrogen. And the only hard benefit I can see is what I already mentioned about consistent tire pressure. There is a reason race cars use it and the FAA mandates it's use for certain high altitude planes.

All the rest is just like a cable debate.

H9

[agfrost]

Thanks for the link H9. At a glance, nothing in the article jumps out as being total BS, nor does it help me see exactly the issue at hand. As I suspected, the science involved appears to be beyond my training and expertise.

My guess on the whole matter? If those big names (F1, NASCAR, FAA) do it, I'm sure there's something to it. But those people are running much closer to the edge of the envelope than most of us are. I'm sure there's a law of diminishing returns that applies.

As several posters above have noted, monitoring your vehicles' tire pressures is probably sufficient and will yield the same results for zero cost.

But if my lawn mower can get through my lawn more quickly, then I'm on my way to the local Goodyear with a quickness... :)

Jay

[heiney9]

Agfrost.... Finally, someone that speaks from FACTS vs. fiction.

And, I am raising my hand because I have had problems sealing tires on Aluminum rims.

So just because he puts out a bunch of heady terms and wordy sentences he is magically appointed the bringer of facts. :rolleyes:.

I have no issue with Agfrost because he probably understands the scientific aspect a little better than most but read the .pdf file I posted above and it refutes his interpretation of Grahams Law of Effusion.

Also keep in mind that .pdf is from the GetNitrogen website so take that FWIW too.

Not in anyway saying Agfrost is incorrect or doesn't make good points, but that doesn't mean he is the only one with facts and the rest of the posts are fiction.

Ron, do a little research and reading you'll become a much more well rounded person.

H9

[dkg999]

Nitrogen in the tires is so old school. If you knew anything about cars and motorcycles you would know that the red ones go faster :eek:

[heiney9]

My guess on the whole matter? If those big names (F1, NASCAR, FAA) do it, I'm sure there's something to it. But those people are running much closer to the edge of the envelope than most of us are. I'm sure there's a law of diminishing returns that applies.

Jay

Agree 100%! For typical consumer use it probably doesn't make sense beyond a conversation piece. I have been reading some trucking companies are seeing some benefits to longer lasting tires and reduced fuel costs but this is over very very large fleets of trucks that run hundreds and hundreds of thousands of miles.

H9

[tonyb]

Man,this is worse than a cable debate.

[agfrost]

Man,this is worse than a cable debate.

Yeah, at least we get to listen to music when debating cables! Don't think I'll get as much pleasure out of doing some A/B'ing in my Sonata.

:D

Jay

[bobman1235]

So just because he puts out a bunch of heady terms and wordy sentences he is magically appointed the bringer of facts. :rolleyes:.9

His facts were also directly contradictory to 95% of Ron's earlier post. Figure that one out.

[dkg999]

We haven't even got to the use of nitrogen as an anti-oxidation prevention method for improving the sound of speaker cables :cool:

[ben62670]

Are we there yet?
Are we there yet?
Are we there yet?
Are we there yet?
Are we there yet?
Are we there yet?
Are we there yet?

[heiney9]

Man,this is worse than a cable debate.

Wait until I bring up Cables injected with Nitrogen and how they sound compared to regular Cables :D:p:)

H9

[sucks2beme]

Nitrogen and air. The difference is hot air keeps going and going.........

[dkg999]

Wait until I bring up Cables injected with Nitrogen and how they sound compared to regular Cables :D:p:)

H9

But then you would be saying ............... "CABLES MAKE A DIFFERENCE"!

(the sound you hear is the door to my hiding place slamming shut!)

[heiney9]

His facts were also directly contradictory to 95% of Ron's earlier post. Figure that one out.

LOL-:D. I wasn't busting on Agfrost just Ron's response to what Agfrost posted. Ron doesn't even realize he was contradicted. LOL

[heiney9]

But then you would be saying ............... "CABLES MAKE A DIFFERENCE"!

(the sound you hear is the door to my hiding place slamming shut!)

They do, every rational audiophile knows that!! :D:D

[dkg999]

They do, every rational audiophile knows that!! :D:D

Now just where are you going to find a rational audiophile? Is that what an audiophile becomes when they're dead :eek:

[rskarvan]

LOL-:D. I wasn't busting on Agfrost just Ron's response to what Agfrost posted. Ron doesn't even realize he was contradicted. LOL

I don't think I was contradicted. Agfrost simply added to the analysis. He agreed that there may be something to the reactivity with oxygen. But, he said its more likely to impact the rim than the tire.

[cmy330go]

Consumer Reports study (http://blogs.consumerreports.org/cars/2007/10/tires-nitrogen-.html) regarding rate of pressure loss.

[dkg999]

Consumer Reports study (http://blogs.consumerreports.org/cars/2007/10/tires-nitrogen-.html) regarding rate of pressure loss.

There you go wanting to try to introduce facts into one of our debates :rolleyes:

[tonyb]

Lets sum all this up.....

WHO GIVES A FLYING F$#K!!!!

[dkg999]

Lets sum all this up.....

WHO GIVES A FLYING F$#K!!!!

I can care about Flying F$#K's! 34,000 feet, a little light chop, a good looking woman spread eagle in the lavatory .............. but I digress :D

[cmy330go]

There you go wanting to try to introduce facts into one of our debates :rolleyes:

Sorry. Moment of weakness.

I can care about Flying F$#K's! 34,000 feet, a little light chop, a good looking woman spread eagle in the lavatory .............. but I digress :D

Wow....You paint quite a picture.:eek:

[tonyb]

Farmers are like that.:D

[dcmeigs]

Let's see. Air is Nitrogen and Oxygen and water and not much else. Mole wt of N2 is 28 and Oxy mole wt is 16. So O2 is smaller. So let's just say, for arguments sake that, the tire could cause a separation of n2 and o2; the o2 gets away. You keep filling your tires up with a little air and before you know it it's mostly nitrogen and the leakage should stop. Has anyone had this experience? I didn't think so.

Nitrogen is manufactured by distilling it from air. In the process the water is also separated out. The nitrogen is "bone dry" (I'm serious, that really is the engineering term, even on April 2). If you live in the frozen north country and use N2, you won't have a big chunk of ice- from the condensed water- in the bottom of your tire when you set out in the morning. That out of balance tire can be a pain, in aircraft tires too. That's the benefit. Not to exciting eh?

[Joe08867]

The only issue I have with the consumer reports test is they only got the tires to 95% Nitrogen. In my mind that would probably be were most of the lost PSI's come from.

Just using normal math 30 psi minus 5% is 1.5 psi. They ended up with a 2.2 psi. so really isn't the loss more like 2.5 percent of the nitrogen. Compared to about 12% for regular oxygen filled tire.

[rskarvan]

Consumer reports rates Nitrogen molecules that are Manufactured in Japan as being 34% less prone to leaking than domestically produced Nitrogen molecules.

[tonyb]

See post #71 Ron...