Pure disapointment.........Polk LSi15

[Hyper_Lite83]

I was SO excited to get these speakers hooked up.

I even took a half day off work just to get home and get them hooked up. Unfortunately, I was severely disappointed.

I hooked them up to a Pioneer 92 receiver. The HT sounded pretty good, but quite frankly the music was horrible! I believe problem was probably the size of my room (it is large and open the the second floor). They've been returned and I'm ready to move on to something else.

I really wanted to like these speakers, but they just didn't give me that "WOW" factor I was looking for.


Does anyone else have some recommendations?

[be83663]

I smell that someone is going to say that "it is because of a lack of an external amplifier". ;)

[Face]

What do you expect when you hook them up to a receiver?

So what didn't you like about the speakers?

[fireshoes]

Let's see...large, open room, running 4ohm speakers off of a receiver...yes, you would really need an amp in that situation. The Pioneer just isn't going to do it justice by itself.

[tonyb]

I smell that someone is going to say that "it is because of a lack of an external amplifier". ;)

Very well could be.Along with placement,source componants,etc. Too many times people don't put enough thought into speaker purchases,thus,the speakers must suck.

[cfrizz]

Welcome Hyper. Sorry you were disappointed. But if you had come here FIRST and done some research you would have found out that the vast majority of receivers are unable to give the LSI's the power they need to sound good. Do a search here on the forum about LSI's & power.

So unless you are willing to get a separate amplifier of at least 200wpc to add to your system, it is probably a good idea that you returned them. However, if you did get the amp you would hear a rocking speaker that does both movies & music well.

[dkg999]

Or it could be that the LSi's just don't produce the sound signature that makes the OP go WOW! If we all liked the same thing, then we would all own the same speakers! Maybe another flavor of speaker would work for the OP.

I do agree with the comments on driving them with a receiver in that environment. They are going to sound pretty flat with normal receivers/AVR's.

[demaples]

I learned the same lesson, 4ohm Polk LSi's need power. If you don't want to invest in an amp I may be interested in them.

[engtaz]

I smell that someone is going to say that "it is because of a lack of an external amplifier". ;)

No, the real reason is most receivers don't handle 4 ohm loads very well, sometimes the receiver and speaker both end up with problems. Sorry to hear about your disappointment, Hyper_Lite83

engtaz

[dorokusai]

I'm glad you returned them and would suggest checking out Klipsch products, and their respective user forum. Problem solved.

[Gaara]

blarg

[SolidSqual]

I was SO excited to get these speakers hooked up.

I even took a half day off work just to get home and get them hooked up. Unfortunately, I was severely disappointed.

I hooked them up to a Pioneer 92 receiver. The HT sounded pretty good, but quite frankly the music was horrible! I believe problem was probably the size of my room (it is large and open the the second floor). They've been returned and I'm ready to move on to something else.

I really wanted to like these speakers, but they just didn't give me that "WOW" factor I was looking for.


Does anyone else have some recommendations?

I have no problem saying that you are a dumbass and don't deserve those speakers. Your first post is filled with so many poor assumptions and conclusions that it makes me puke. You can train someone to have common sense, but you can't fix stupid. Go buy Bose . . .

[mule]

You made a similar mistake that I did.

What I have learned from reading here and my mistakes...

If you have a $500 reciever, buy $250 speakers, it will make them sound good.

If you buy $1000 speakers and want them to sound like $1000 speakers, spend $2000 on a processer and amp. If you run $1000 speakers on a $500 reciever they will still sound like $250 speakers.

Budget more $$$ for source than you do for speakers and you will do better than more $$$ on speakers than source.

Good luck.

[Early B.]

If the 15's sounded good with HT and horrible with music, then you either had something hooked up wrong or you have a weak source.

[treitz3]

I hooked them up to a Pioneer 92 receiver.

I really wanted to like these speakers, but they just didn't give me that "WOW" factor I was looking for.........Unfortunately, I was severely disappointed.

Does anyone else have some recommendations?
Lose the receiver if you ever want to power a 4 ohm speaker and be careful to not bash a speaker when the speaker wasn't the issue in your setup.

[mantis]

I have no problem saying that you are a dumbass and don't deserve those speakers. Your first post is filled with so many poor assumptions and conclusions that it makes me puke. You can train someone to have common sense, but you can't fix stupid. Go buy Bose . . .

I'm wondering with a guy who only has 6 posts that it's nessary to treat him this way. It sounds to me like he got a good demo and then flopped at home. I also feel it's poor judgement to speak to others in this tone. It also makes our forum look ugly.

Honestly dude many people who don't come to this forum or understand Ohm load have no idea that most receivers will not power a 4 ohm load speaker of any kind properly. I work in the industry and you would not believe how many people try and power nice speakers with receivers. It makes me sick to see it go but it's how it really is out there. It's a shame the Lsi's can't be powered off a wonderful receiver like the Pioneer Elite vsx92txh. It sounds awesome with Focal speakers which are as good or better then the Lsi series and they are 8 ohm load. Like B&W speakers which also sing with the Pioneer Elite receivers. Years ago I have Installed countless systems with Pioneer Elite receivers and B&W speakers. 8 ohm load all day long and sound wonderful.

Give the guy a break, why not try and help him instead of kicking him in the pride. We all where rookies of audio at one time or another. Hell I have been an Installer for over 8 years, been into audio since the late 70's and I feel I learn something new each and every day.

Hyper_Lite83,
with the receiver you used to power the Lsi's, they where not powered correctly. If you run it long enough or loud enough, the Receiver will go into protection. It takes all of it's internal power just to handle to load the Lsi's give it. It's a miss match. The 92 receiver is designed to handle speakers 6 to 16 ohms. 4 ohm speakers suck the life out of the internal amps. If you add a seperate power amp like a B&K ref200.7 , you will now have plenty of power to drive them and hear what they can sound like. Also new speakers need about 1 month or so before they start to sound good. This is called break in. B&W speakers actually sound horrible right out of the box to the point that you would want to return then in 5 minutes of owning them.

I suggest you get a power amp or look for new speakers. Try the Focal 8 ohm speakers or anything else you like thats 6 or 8 ohms. Thats if you plan on owning the Elite receiver.

Good luck man,

Dan

[Midnite Mick]

This whole thread doesn't make sense.

If anything the Lsi are better for music than they are for home theatre....I'm confused...oh well I'm out

[mantis]

This whole thread doesn't make sense.

If anything the Lsi are better for music than they are for home theatre....I'm confused...oh well I'm out

Thats a matter of opnion man. Your not confused, you just don't agree with his opnion of the speakers.

[Gaara]

I can't read to good

[steveinaz]

I can't think of a single scenario (sans connecting them to an AM transistor radio) where Lsi15's would disappoint...If they didn't do it for ya, prepare to spend about 5 large to move to the next bracket.

[Midnite Mick]

I guess I am the only one that noticed/cares that he was praising these a month ago and now says they are a disappointment? He already had them in his system last month so I don't buy his first post in this thread. Maybe he is just really mad about the Monitor series being made in China.

I got that same impression...but I think he was just quoting a review from someone else in that thread.

[Gaara]

Thanks for clearing that up, continue on...

[mulveling]

Man...should have at least tried different locations, etc. Acoustics fundamentals can make a WORLD of difference. Also, it helps to make sure your receiver isn't doing any wonky processing modes, etc. If you normally give up on stuff so quickly, then audio is NOT the hobby for you!

Also, exaggerated expectations built up over time by reading rave reviews, not proportionally supplemented by hands-on experience, is just ASKING for crushing disappointment. About 90%+ of the rave reviews in audio are pretty worthless anyways.

[fatchowmein]

My experience...

LSi15s + Yamaha 95W receiver that you had to flip a switch to get 4Ohms = "How much did I pay for these things???"

LSi15s + Emotiva LPA-1 ext amp = "Whoa! How much did I pay for these things! :) "

[Midnite Mick]

Maybe the OP could describe what he likes in a speaker...what he is looking for and draw on others' experiences.

Do tell, do tell.

[daboyz]

Simple case of lack of power and not doing his homework,then kneejerk reaction. We've all had our "here's your sign" moments. This is his.

[dave shepard]

I'm wondering with a guy who only has 6 posts that it's nessary to treat him this way. It sounds to me like he got a good demo and then flopped at home. I also feel it's poor judgement to speak to others in this tone. It also makes our forum look ugly.

Honestly dude many people who don't come to this forum or understand Ohm load have no idea that most receivers will not power a 4 ohm load speaker of any kind properly. I work in the industry and you would not believe how many people try and power nice speakers with receivers. It makes me sick to see it go but it's how it really is out there. It's a shame the Lsi's can't be powered off a wonderful receiver like the Pioneer Elite vsx92txh. It sounds awesome with Focal speakers which are as good or better then the Lsi series and they are 8 ohm load. Like B&W speakers which also sing with the Pioneer Elite receivers. Years ago I have Installed countless systems with Pioneer Elite receivers and B&W speakers. 8 ohm load all day long and sound wonderful.

Give the guy a break, why not try and help him instead of kicking him in the pride. We all where rookies of audio at one time or another. Hell I have been an Installer for over 8 years, been into audio since the late 70's and I feel I learn something new each and every day.

Hyper_Lite83,
with the receiver you used to power the Lsi's, they where not powered correctly. If you run it long enough or loud enough, the Receiver will go into protection. It takes all of it's internal power just to handle to load the Lsi's give it. It's a miss match. The 92 receiver is designed to handle speakers 6 to 16 ohms. 4 ohm speakers suck the life out of the internal amps. If you add a seperate power amp like a B&K ref200.7 , you will now have plenty of power to drive them and hear what they can sound like. Also new speakers need about 1 month or so before they start to sound good. This is called break in. B&W speakers actually sound horrible right out of the box to the point that you would want to return then in 5 minutes of owning them.

I suggest you get a power amp or look for new speakers. Try the Focal 8 ohm speakers or anything else you like thats 6 or 8 ohms. Thats if you plan on owning the Elite receiver.

Good luck man,

Dan

I agree 100%.

If I were him I would be plenty pissed with the sales person that put or let the 2 be put together just to make a sale, total crap, did anybody mention that to him?.

There are some that feel you can get just as good sound as long as you just keep the volume down, that is crap. The dynamics in both music and movies demand that the amp provide extreme power fast at the right load, anything short no matter where the volume is will not show what the speaker can do.

You also do not need to get 200w's (as stated) to properly drive a speaker. What you need is good clean hi current. I would put a Mac reciever against most the widely used dedicated amps and will have no dought that the less then 200w Mac would spank the shit out of the 200w dedicated amp.

I think that instead of always saying that you have to have a 200w amp to properly get the power the speaker needs does more harm then good and probably makes people second guess the purchase. You can also look at NAD who dosen't have a 200w amp and I know they would run the LSi's nicely based on their ability to drive a 8-4ohm load and dynamic power into 2ohm (recievers included) if someone feels that Mac is too pricey.

My2cents

Dave

[treitz3]

Simple case of lack of power and not doing his homework,then kneejerk reaction. We've all had our "here's your sign" moments. This is his.
That's a very polite, true and funny way to put it. Thanks for the chuckle. :D

[cfrizz]

This guy has been a member since early last month. He has had plenty of time to research everything he could possibly want to know about the LSI's. God know we talk enough about them.

Dave, You chastise about us telling someone to get 200wpc at a reasonable price & then in the same breath push a Mac receiver that would certainly cost a lot more just because of the name.

Sorry that logic doesn't fly with me.

[Early B.]

Let's coin a new phrase for whenever a newbie doesn't power his speakers properly -- "audio impotence." How about "flaccid speaker syndrome?"

[Zero]

I'm not even sure if the OP is reading this thread, ah well. Anyway;

It's true, the Pioneer receiver is not up to snuff. It has a weak amplification section that is only ideal with efficient loudspeakers that sport 8 ohm or higher loads. It also bears mentioning that Pioneer receivers were never meant to satisfy the critical ear. They are affordable products designed and voiced for home theater applications. The Lsi is a breed of loudspeaker that thirsts for higher quality components and will reward you accordingly when you give them what they need to strut their stuff.

side tangent: I wish people would get off this kick that receivers are inherently capable of good sound / generous current capacity. There are a number of receivers out there today that offer exceptional dual duty HT/2 Channel performance.

Steering back on course; Expectation can be a fickle thing. To me, it sounds like you wanted to be blown away upon initial listening and when that didn't happen - you quickly packaged em' right back up into their boxes. I could be wrong, but it doesn't look like you gave them much of a chance at all.

In the end however, it could be that you just don't care for their sound. The beautiful part of this gig is that there are plenty of loudspeakers to chose from. A good match for your room and existing components would be something from Paradigm, PSB, or JM LAB. Unless you have the extra coin to change out your electronics, I'd make sure that whatever you look at sports an 8ohm impedance and has an efficiency thats no less than 87db.

Good luck in the search!

[danger boy]

I was SO excited to get these speakers hooked up.

I even took a half day off work just to get home and get them hooked up. Unfortunately, I was severely disappointed.

I hooked them up to a Pioneer 92 receiver. The HT sounded pretty good, but quite frankly the music was horrible! I believe problem was probably the size of my room (it is large and open the the second floor). They've been returned and I'm ready to move on to something else.

I really wanted to like these speakers, but they just didn't give me that "WOW" factor I was looking for.


Does anyone else have some recommendations?

so you had them in your house for how long? 1/2 day and you decided to return them? I can see a person not liking a certain sound, but man give it time to burn in and show you what it can do at least.

[cfrizz]

He is one of a whole batch of newbies who picked them up cheap from Fry's clearance sale. He got them cause they were at a good price & didn't bother to research them to find out how to make them sound their best even though he's been here a month.

Now like others he's finding out his receiver doesn't have what it takes, but he's the first one to pack them up & send them back. Hopefully they will go to someone more deserving & better prepared & knowledgeble.


so you had them in your house for how long? 1/2 day and you decided to return them? I can see a person not liking a certain sound, but man give it time to burn in and show you what it can do at least.

[cfrizz]

:D:D:D Brad, thanks for giving me a huge laugh tonight!!! CLASSIC!:D:D:D


Let's coin a new phrase for whenever a newbie doesn't power his speakers properly -- "audio impotence." How about "flaccid speaker syndrome?"

[george daniel]

just scrolling thru rhis thread. Having owne 15's before,,and felling somewhat disappointed,I did,,purchase a amp with high current/high power,,then I twealed the room placement,,,not completely satisfied, I then invested in a quality source and pre,,and you know what,,I was 95% of the way there,, looking back,, a few room trearments would not have hurt. Good luck,, listen to some of the advice given,,and don't give up..:)

[mightymouse]

Don't send them back!

They are mine if you want to return them.

[mightymouse]

What didn't you like about the 15's?



just scrolling thru rhis thread. Having owne 15's before,,and felling somewhat disappointed,I did,,purchase a amp with high current/high power,,then I twealed the room placement,,,not completely satisfied, I then invested in a quality source and pre,,and you know what,,I was 95% of the way there,, looking back,, a few room trearments would not have hurt. Good luck,, listen to some of the advice given,,and don't give up..:)

[be83663]

See! I told you so, Hyper Lite83. :)

[sucks2beme]

What hurts is when I go looking for LSI's on sale, I can't find zip.
I've got amps, what I need are LSI's, damn it.

[MillerLiteScott]

Rookie

[ben62670]

Ugly thread.

[danger boy]

He is one of a whole batch of newbies who picked them up cheap from Fry's clearance sale. He got them cause they were at a good price & didn't bother to research them to find out how to make them sound their best even though he's been here a month.

Now like others he's finding out his receiver doesn't have what it takes, but he's the first one to pack them up & send them back. Hopefully they will go to someone more deserving & better prepared & knowledgeble.

Cathy, I think you're right.

[BottomFeeder]

Ok, so, if a guy was to have an Adcom GFA 5500 (Card carrying 200 wpc club mbr. / 350 wpc @ 4 ohms), an NAD cd player & an NAD C320Bee IA as a pre...AM I GOING TO LOVE THE LSI15'S THAT I'M THINKING OF BUYING???

Well? Am I? Huh?

[Monster Jam]

I'm glad you returned them and would suggest checking out Klipsch products, and their respective user forum. Problem solved.

I second this opinion. I wonder if this guy auditioned the speakers?

[ben62670]

I second this opinion. I wonder if this guy auditioned the speakers?

Its not blatantly obvious that LSI's need an amp to really sing. IF you walk into a store, and see a $1850 pair of speakers marked down to $800(I don't know the latest prices), and an $1200 pair of speakers for $600 which speakers are you going to buy? 90% of consumers are going too jump on getting the "better speakers". Seeing that I have been in the hobby a bit more I understand what ohms mean. I understand what efficiency means. I had to learn these things. I would love to own some LSI's(9's), but I understand more than the average guy that walks into the store to check them out. Polk needs to revamp their LSI series to be a little more receiver friendly, and some efficiency wouldn't hurt either. Forget trying to educate salesmen. They just want to grab their sale. The OP is probably pretty pissed as most people would be thinking hey wow $1850 speakers have to sound better in my system than the ones that came with my receiver. I am sure he thinks they sound better, but not for the price with the equipment he is using. Not a very friendly welcome to Polk. Even though Polk has the best CS of nearly any large corp out there, and excellent bang for buck he is probably been pushed back even further by remarks here on this thread.

[dorokusai]

He'll be ok, I'm sure he's a big boy.

[danger boy]

Ok, so, if a guy was to have an Adcom GFA 5500 (Card carrying 200 wpc club mbr. / 350 wpc @ 4 ohms), an NAD cd player & an NAD C320Bee IA as a pre...AM I GOING TO LOVE THE LSI15'S THAT I'M THINKING OF BUYING???

Well? Am I? Huh?

I think you will.. but it will certainly be different than vintage Polk Audio sound.. the LSI's are very pleasing and accurate sounding.. but they are not vintage sounding.. if that's what you hope to keep is that vintage Polk sound in a smaller footprint.. then you may not like them.

on the other hand, the LSi's are wonderful sounding speakers.. that's why they haven't changed them since they first came out.. except I think the LSi 7's did get some kind of minor make over a few years ago.

You got the power for em, that's for sure. ;)

[BaggedLancer]

I don't think 200wpc is enough for the LSi's......It needs to be atleast 210wpc.....go big or go home I'm told.


Please, enough with the 200wpc crapola....everyone....it's nothing but a load of doodoo poopoo.

[Face]

Dave, You chastise about us telling someone to get 200wpc at a reasonable price & then in the same breath push a Mac receiver that would certainly cost a lot more just because of the name.

Sorry that logic doesn't fly with me.
He's saying there's a 75wpc Mac receiver would smoke many 200wpc amps. What's so hard to understand?

I have a 30wpc amp here that would smoke most receivers. Advertised wattage doesn't mean diddley.

[BottomFeeder]

Well, doodoo poopoo or not, all I know is that when I went from a 50 wpc NAD to a 200 wpc Adcom, me likey mo' bettuh!

& How come "everyone" (not stacking the deck or anything) seems to think that the LSi15's need a lot of wattage?

Oh yeah, & since the LSi15's are 4 ohm (right?), the Adcom pushes 350 wpc, OVER the 210 you recommend.

So I got that goin' for me...

[AudioFilet]

I'm gonna get me one of those PS Audio GCC-500 amps.

1000WPC @ 4 ohms.

I'll find out what those LSi's are made of dammit!!

[ben62670]

I see where face is coming from, but I just have to have my 1000wpc of Adcom for me. I am sick, and demented. I don't know what else to say.

[F1nut]

so you had them in your house for how long? 1/2 day and you decided to return them? I can see a person not liking a certain sound, but man give it time to burn in and show you what it can do at least.

That's how I'm reading it. :rolleyes:

Not to mention everyone else is right, his AVR has no balls.

[dkg999]

I spent several hours listening to LSi15's, powered by a 120 wpc amp, and they were producing fantastic sound, with any kind of music, and at any volume you wanted to listen to them at.

[george daniel]

What didn't you like about the 15's?

I could never get the bass quite right. For me it was just too flabby,,, but as I said earlier,,some room treatments would most likely have fixed that. One thing that I did discover,,was that when I had those babies pointed straight at me,,the imaging,,was incrediable,,,and the mids and highs were were very smooth and detailed.It's just not a speaker that you bring home,,take it out of the box, hook it to a yamadenokardon receiver and expect miracles. However, when "dialed in",,,,,X marks the spot.;):)

[demaples]

I'm wondering with a guy who only has 6 posts that it's nessary to treat him this way. It sounds to me like he got a good demo and then flopped at home. I also feel it's poor judgement to speak to others in this tone. It also makes our forum look ugly.

Honestly dude many people who don't come to this forum or understand Ohm load have no idea that most receivers will not power a 4 ohm load speaker of any kind properly. I work in the industry and you would not believe how many people try and power nice speakers with receivers. It makes me sick to see it go but it's how it really is out there. It's a shame the Lsi's can't be powered off a wonderful receiver like the Pioneer Elite vsx92txh. It sounds awesome with Focal speakers which are as good or better then the Lsi series and they are 8 ohm load. Like B&W speakers which also sing with the Pioneer Elite receivers. Years ago I have Installed countless systems with Pioneer Elite receivers and B&W speakers. 8 ohm load all day long and sound wonderful.

Give the guy a break, why not try and help him instead of kicking him in the pride. We all where rookies of audio at one time or another. Hell I have been an Installer for over 8 years, been into audio since the late 70's and I feel I learn something new each and every day.

Hyper_Lite83,
with the receiver you used to power the Lsi's, they where not powered correctly. If you run it long enough or loud enough, the Receiver will go into protection. It takes all of it's internal power just to handle to load the Lsi's give it. It's a miss match. The 92 receiver is designed to handle speakers 6 to 16 ohms. 4 ohm speakers suck the life out of the internal amps. If you add a seperate power amp like a B&K ref200.7 , you will now have plenty of power to drive them and hear what they can sound like. Also new speakers need about 1 month or so before they start to sound good. This is called break in. B&W speakers actually sound horrible right out of the box to the point that you would want to return then in 5 minutes of owning them.

I suggest you get a power amp or look for new speakers. Try the Focal 8 ohm speakers or anything else you like thats 6 or 8 ohms. Thats if you plan on owning the Elite receiver.

Good luck man,

Dan

Dan,
you said a mouthfull! We all have to learn, some qiucker than others, but there is absolutley no need to be ugly here.
Dennis

[heiney9]

Ok, so, if a guy was to have an Adcom GFA 5500 (Card carrying 200 wpc club mbr. / 350 wpc @ 4 ohms), an NAD cd player & an NAD C320Bee IA as a pre...AM I GOING TO LOVE THE LSI15'S THAT I'M THINKING OF BUYING???

Well? Am I? Huh?

Yep, you'll be giddy with delight; atleast I was. If you are a person who thinks Cerwin Vegas sound good; then no. If you are very fond of the Polk vintage sound; then no. If you are smitten with SDA's; then to lesser degree.

LSI's are deceptively good sounding speakers and you need to spend some quality time with some quality gear to realize how good they really are. They can have some set-up issues in that placement to get the best sound can be tricky, but no trickier than say a pair of SDA's. The Vifa tweeter rules and is so smooth and effortless it seems like it has less accuracy than other speakers, but after through listening one realizes it's the other tweeters that are less accurate even if they play louder and are more strident, etc. The tweeter also has the uncanny ability to lessen some of the harshness, etc. of marginal recordings.

The main gripe (small) with LSi's is the bass. The 9's have a very noticeable and in many cases pleasing mid bass hump. The LSi 15's are hard to place to get dead on natural bass. The bass from modern Polks is much different from the vintage passive radiator based models. I have yet to hear a modern Polk have as natural, extended and undistorted bass as the SDA's.

Obviously the OP doesn't care and either posted to vent or to slam the product. If he truly was concerned we'd have heard from him in this discussion.

H9

[engtaz]

I agree with H9.

engtaz

[Gaara]

He is one of a whole batch of newbies who picked them up cheap from Fry's clearance sale. He got them cause they were at a good price & didn't bother to research them to find out how to make them sound their best even though he's been here a month.

Thanks for that, I must have missed hearing about the sale. I now understand why there was that sudden explosion of LSi threads and Amps for LSi threads.

Audiofilet, if you are serious I would recommend you look elsewhere, the PS Audios are way overpriced IMO.

[BottomFeeder]

I just recently got to demo the LSi15's. The store was using a Denon IA w/80 wpc & the speakers just sounded fabulous.

I have vintage Polks (RTA12C's) and love them, but I liked the LSi15's much more. At least in the store! I think I'll be happy w/them!

[donedroolin]

When I first got my LSi15's I was trying to power them with a Sony receiver. Suppose to have been 100watt per channel. I did not understand the Ohm thing ethier. I had the RTi10's before the 15's and they sounded pretty good with the Sony. After readind Polk forums I knew something had to go. Like my Sony receiver. I got a Parasound A51 amp and C2controller and It was the best purchase I could have made with the LSi speakers. All I can say is NIGHT and DAY. Get proper amplification and you will not be sorry. You should have given the speakers atleast a couple days not just half. And if you can ADD a SEPERATE amp.

[djlogix]

To my defense as a noob, I registered far before the sales :cool:

[treitz3]

Well, doodoo poopoo or not, all I know is that when I went from a 50 wpc NAD to a 200 wpc Adcom, me likey mo' bettuh!

& How come "everyone" (not stacking the deck or anything) seems to think that the LSi15's need a lot of wattage?
My guess would be that it is a "blanket answer" for those that are not in the know that covers what most of the general public needs to know in order to get [what the general public would consider] good sound.

What they need is an amp that is rated and capable of handling a 4 ohm load that also has the capacitance and /or current draw necessary to properly power them. This can be achieved at well below a "200 watt minimum".

[Hyper_Lite83]

WOW.....

Look at the hate......

Just because I didn't have an amplifier hooked up doesn't mean I can't hear what these speakers are worth.

They were loud and clear, but didn't produce the sound I want. The tweeter is excellent, but the mid area seem to lack any presence in the room.

I understand that you're defending a product you own, but I was NOT impressed with these speakers.

[Face]

No hate here.

I have never owned a pair, but have heard a few pairs. You need a external amp to get the most of out them, using a receiver to judge what a pair of speakers are worth is fine if they're best buy specials.

[tonyb]

WOW.....

Look at the hate......

Just because I didn't have an amplifier hooked up doesn't mean I can't hear what these speakers are worth.

They were loud and clear, but didn't produce the sound I want. The tweeter is excellent, but the mid area seem to lack any presence in the room.

I understand that you're defending a product you own, but I was NOT impressed with these speakers.

Well...yes,because you didn't power them correctly,how can you judge what they are "worth" ? They may or may not be for you,that,anyone will agree on,but when you demo speakers,you need to make sure to power them correctly,and that is the issue at hand.

[F1nut]

WOW.....

Look at the hate......

Just because I didn't have an amplifier hooked up doesn't mean I can't hear what these speakers are worth.

They were loud and clear, but didn't produce the sound I want. The tweeter is excellent, but the mid area seem to lack any presence in the room.

I understand that you're defending a product you own, but I was NOT impressed with these speakers.


Your AVR can not drive those speakers as they should be driven. I'm not sure what part if that you're not understanding. It does make a huge difference. Also, how long did you let the speakers break in before coming to your conclusion?

[Hyper_Lite83]

so you had them in your house for how long? 1/2 day and you decided to return them? I can see a person not liking a certain sound, but man give it time to burn in and show you what it can do at least.

I had them for about 3 weeks.

[cfrizz]

I'm not interested in paying that kind of money for that smoke, when I can get the same in a cheaper but well made 200wpc amp! What's so hard to understand about that?



He's saying there's a 75wpc Mac receiver would smoke many 200wpc amps. What's so hard to understand?

I have a 30wpc amp here that would smoke most receivers. Advertised wattage doesn't mean diddley.

[Hyper_Lite83]

He is one of a whole batch of newbies who picked them up cheap from Fry's clearance sale. He got them cause they were at a good price & didn't bother to research them to find out how to make them sound their best even though he's been here a month.

Now like others he's finding out his receiver doesn't have what it takes, but he's the first one to pack them up & send them back. Hopefully they will go to someone more deserving & better prepared & knowledgeble.

I actually purchased them online.

I did however, visit Fry's in Vegas to find them at less than half the cost of what I paid.

[Ron Temple]

Hyper started a thread weeks ago over on AVS when he discovered the LSis weren't doing it for him. He was looking for suggestions then, so I'm pretty sure he gave them a decent trial period. Underpowered or not, room issues or not, they just weren't for him. That's fine, he took them back. I'm not sure what his motivation for starting this thread was, but it's ok not to like something. As Doro said, Klipsch might be right up his alley.

[treitz3]

Just because I didn't have an amplifier hooked up doesn't mean I can't hear what these speakers are worth.
You have an amplifier in the receiver, that's NOT what we are talking about. What we are talking about is that you don't have ENOUGH amplification to even remotely listen to what these speakers are capable of.

Had you hooked them up to [let's say] an Odyssey, Sunfire or similar amplifier that was rated for a 4 ohm load, THEN and only then would you get the proper sound out of these speakers. It's obvious that you were not properly amplifying them which is why you have had so many responses.

Listen to what the folks have had to say in this thread. Everybody can't be wrong. In fact, some of us actually DO know what we are talking about. You did not give them a chance and then you come out and say that you were disappointed? Well, to be frank with you.....DUH! :rolleyes:

[Hyper_Lite83]

Your AVR can not drive those speakers as they should be driven. I'm not sure what part if that you're not understanding. It does make a huge difference. Also, how long did you let the speakers break in before coming to your conclusion?

I understand how amplication works and while they would sound a little bit better it WILL NOT make them sound completely different.

As I stated before they didn't give me that "WOW" factor I'm looking for.

[treitz3]

Your AVR can not drive those speakers as they should be driven. I'm not sure what part if that you're not understanding.
Ding, Ding, Ding!!!!

Suuuuuuurrrvey says.......#1 answer! You are the next contestant on "How to amplify a speaker".....Come on down!!!

[F1nut]

I understand how amplication works and while they would sound a little bit better it WILL NOT make them sound completely different.

You couldn't possibly be more wrong.




As I stated before they didn't give me that "WOW" factor I'm looking for.


In the end, that's entirely possible. However, you didn't do what needed to be done to find out.

[SolidSqual]

I understand how amplication works and while they would sound a little bit better it WILL NOT make them sound completely different.

As I stated before they didn't give me that "WOW" factor I'm looking for.

Have you tried separate amps? My guess is no. Why? B/c you are a dumbass and estimate benefits from knowledge you don't have. Come back when you have both sides of the experience to back up your cluelessness.

[cfrizz]

Thanks for that info Ron.

Now, he went to a totally different forum to ask about Polk speakers when he could have asked us for info here? Yeah ok. Then he starts this thread here complaining that it was the speakers fault that they didn't "WOW" him.

We all know that the LSI's can wow up the wazoo if properly powered.

That could mean anything. If he had said that they didn't have the sound he was looking for this thread wouldn't have blown up, since we can all understand that issue.


Hyper started a thread weeks ago over on AVS when he discovered the LSis weren't doing it for him. He was looking for suggestions then, so I'm pretty sure he gave them a decent trial period. Underpowered or not, room issues or not, they just weren't for him. That's fine, he took them back. I'm not sure what his motivation for starting this thread was, but it's ok not to like something. As Doro said, Klipsch might be right up his alley.

[Hyper_Lite83]

Have you tried separate amps? My guess is no. Why? B/c you are a dumbass and estimate benefits from knowledge you don't have. Come back when you have both sides of the experience to back up your cluelessness.


When I still had these I tried to borrow an amp, but I couldn't find one locally. I would be happy to give these speakers another "go" if I could find a loaner amp. Are their places online that pay return shipping if this doesn't fix the problem?

[dorokusai]

It's over guys, he stated he returned them many posts ago, who cares, it's just a speaker.

[F1nut]

The education never ends, therefore it's not over.

[candyliquor35m]

Matt must be rolling over in his hot tub about now.

Try this one on for size.

We are sorry you didn't find the Polk LSi15 speakers to your liking and you did the right thing by returning them for a full refund.

We do have other models such as the ___, or the ____ that are easier to amplify than the LSi series. The LSi series is one of our top of the line models but requires proper amplification which often requires a stand alone 2 channel amp to be able to hear the sound that they are capable of producing.

We are here to help you in any way we can and hope you will consider some of our other models which may be better suited at meeting your expectations.

Thank you for your feedback.

[Face]

I'm not interested in paying that kind of money for that smoke, when I can get the same in a cheaper but well made 200wpc amp! What's so hard to understand about that?
It's hard to understand because it's far from true.

Enjoy your setup and have a good day.

[treitz3]

I understand how amplication works and while they would sound a little bit better it WILL NOT make them sound completely different. As I stated before they didn't give me that "WOW" factor I'm looking for.
Man, I'm gonna have to disagree with you there on that one. My experience tells me otherwise. I have had a pair of Carver Amazing loudspeakers and a pair of Polk RTi10's that took on a whole new dimension when properly amplified. The top end saw the least amount of improvement. What came into fruition was the mids, mid-bass punch and most definitely the low end. If you were in my room and you heard the difference between both of the un-properly amplified and then the same two speakers properly amplified, you wouldn't have made that statement.

Now I'm going to poke a little fun at you. If you know how "amplification" works, you might want to learn how to spell it correctly :p. I'm done poking fun at you now.

These speakers even when properly amplified may not have given you the particular flavor that you were looking for, that's why there are so many to choose from and part of what makes this hobby such a fun past time....but you have to at the very least set up a system capable of delivering what the speaker requires before bashing the speaker. A good friend of mine used to have in his signature "Piss poor planning leads to a piss poor performance", in your case you had piss poor planning.

[heiney9]

WOW.....

Look at the hate......

Just because I didn't have an amplifier hooked up doesn't mean I can't hear what these speakers are worth.

They were loud and clear, but didn't produce the sound I want. The tweeter is excellent, but the mid area seem to lack any presence in the room.

I understand that you're defending a product you own, but I was NOT impressed with these speakers.

Not hating at all if you took my post that way. You weren't at all this descriptive in your original post. More details would be even better. We can only respond to what you write. Sounded like you only had them hooked up for a half day. That's about 13 1/2 to 20 1/2 days too short to get any kind of worthwhile impression. Plus you never even explained your set-up, your music preference what movies sounded good, how the speakers were set up and if you used the proper AVIA disc for HT calibration, or even what specifically you didn't like compared to what your expectations were.

Put up a flippant review and you'll get a lot of flippant responses because we have to fill in 95% of what we perceive your situation to be. Put in a little more effort into your posts; you'll get better responses.

Good luck with your hunt. We still don't have hardly anything to go on to make other (non) Polk recommendations if you even want that type of input.

H9

P.s. It's OK not to like them, but it seems you hardly gave them a fair chance and then totally dogged on them.

[Ricardo]

//////\\/\/\/\///\\\///\\\/\\\/\\/\\/\\\\/\\/\\/\/\

\/\/\/\/\/\/\/////\\\\\///\\\\\/\/\/\/\\/\/\/\\/\\/\

I swear this is true!

[heiney9]

I understand that you're defending a product you own, but I was NOT impressed with these speakers.

FYI, I don't own LSi's.

[ben62670]

I understand how amplication works and while they would sound a little bit better it WILL NOT make them sound completely different.


You couldn't be further from the truth.

[heiney9]

Disregard parts of my previous post as I obviously didn't refresh my screen and see the that Hyper had them for 3 weeks. That should be enough time to determine the characteristics of a speaker. Perhaps if you had powered them better the outcome would have been different; or perhaps not (to you), you'll never know. I've found amplification especially separates to be a night/day difference

H9

[cfrizz]

Outstanding post H9!


Not hating at all if you took my post that way. You weren't at all this descriptive in your original post. More details would be even better. We can only respond to what you write. Sounded like you only had them hooked up for a half day. That's about 13 1/2 to 20 1/2 days too short to get any kind of worthwhile impression. Plus you never even explained your set-up, your music preference what movies sounded good, how the speakers were set up and if you used the proper AVIA disc for HT calibration, or even what specifically you didn't like compared to what your expectations were.

Put up a flippant review and you'll get a lot of flippant responses because we have to fill in 95% of what we perceive your situation to be. Put in a little more effort into your posts; you'll get better responses.

Good luck with your hunt. We still don't have hardly anything to go on to make other (non) Polk recommendations if you even want that type of input.

H9

P.s. It's OK not to like them, but it seems you hardly gave them a fair chance and then totally dogged on them.

[cfrizz]

Thank you I am. And you have a nice day as well!:)


It's hard to understand because it's far from true.

Enjoy your setup and have a good day.

[mantis]

I understand how amplication works and while they would sound a little bit better it WILL NOT make them sound completely different.

As I stated before they didn't give me that "WOW" factor I'm looking for.

Actually your very wrong here man. When I first got my Lsi's, I had a Denon avr3801. I listened and felt they sounded better then my rt1000p's I had at the time and felt they where nice. I demo'd them a few times on higher end receiver way back in the day.
I also owned a B&K st140 2 channel amp which I preamped from the Denon and found new life with the Lsi's. I further went and picked up a used set of Rotel preamp and 2 channel amp and man did it sound fantastic. I also purchased a B&K avr307 which totally made the Lsi's sing like never before. I was totally into them and found to like them even more I listened to them. Music and movies where effortless. The B&K sounded so damn good with them.

In my opnion, having good electronics to match good speakers makes all the sense in the world. You may not like them at all but you must have heard something that made you spend the money on them.

I suggest you go out and listen to other speakers with seperates and good quality gear. You will hear alot out there, not many better then the Lsi's, not at there price range. Good luck with that.

Dan

[steveinaz]

I don't care if your running a flea amp, for you to say "...and music sounded horrible" with Lsi15's, I'd be looking upstream. I don't own Lsi15's but I have heard them.

[Rays_Fan]

Yes, I have been told that 4 ohm speakers are hard to drive with HT receivers. Sorry to hear you changed your mind.

Rays_Fan

[dave shepard]

I'm not interested in paying that kind of money for that smoke, when I can get the same in a cheaper but well made 200wpc amp! What's so hard to understand about that?

In my post I refered to not needing 200wpc to get them to sing their heart out. I used the Mac reciever (and NAD just not in the same sentance) as being quality pieces worth looking at that will drive the LSi's at the 4ohm load they need and do not offer the 200wpc that is stated as what they need. The Mac has been discontinued and can be had at a price on par with a good pre, amp and cables (a dealer in my area still has one NIB well under $5k) and I can tell you that with the cost of my Rotel 1068 and Sherbourn 7ch amp and cables I could easily buy it and be better off for it but since I already have what I have that would be stupid on my part.

What I am trying to get accross is that you do not need 200wpc to effectively drive the LSi's. They would be better off with a quality amp that offers clean, hi-current power that is able to drive the 4ohm load. Under normal listening music or movies you are using not much more then 1wpc out of 200wpc and on the dynamic parts you might step into 50-80wpc the better hi-current unit will put the power out faster and with more authority then the average piece. So given the extra unused portion of the 200wpc amp you do have better control over the drivers but could have saved money by looking at a less powerfull amp and still get quality sound out of your speakers there does come a point of deminishing returns. If money is tight for someone they may not look at the LSi's thinking that nothing short of
200wpc will work and that is just not true.

There are just too many veriables involved when it comes to higher-end audio. When you reach that level everything involved from cd/dvd to pre-pro to amp to cables everything becomes important and effects the sound more noticably then the average entry level audio. But you can't forget that there is always the dreaded diminishing returns and knowing where to call it quits because the speakers just can not do anymore. The Mac used for an example is one such piece (overkill for the LSi's it can provide more then the speakers can do) but you would never have too look elsewhere for a better reciever and your speakers will be putting out everything they have to offer, no question.

My intention is not to start a fight but to provide my opinion and first hand experiance and this thread has gotten crazy attention and some have gave a newbee some unnessary red ass in stead of trying to guide him and explain what might be wrong. I'm not too sure how long I would have been here if that happened to me when I first started and I can tell you I have asked some really stupid questions some I asked more then once because I just didn't understand but the people here (DocSpec especally) were very gracious and patient with me and I am greatful, any reason why there seems to be more bashing happening to newbees then before? we all have to learn some how right?

I hope there are no ill feelings with my statements or opinions.

Dave

[F1nut]

For the record, I didn't bash this newbie.....damn, I miss those days.

[Frank Z]

Probably been covered already, but so what. Yes proper amplification is important, and so is location & room accoustics. If the room sucks and or the placement is lousy don't blame the speaker.

[ben62670]

In my post I refered to not needing 200wpc to get them to sing their heart out. I used the Mac reciever (and NAD just not in the same sentance) as being quality pieces worth looking at that will drive the LSi's at the 4ohm load they need and do not offer the 200wpc that is stated as what they need. The Mac has been discontinued and can be had at a price on par with a good pre, amp and cables (a dealer in my area still has one NIB well under $5k) and I can tell you that with the cost of my Rotel 1068 and Sherbourn 7ch amp and cables I could easily buy it and be better off for it but since I already have what I have that would be stupid on my part.

What I am trying to get accross is that you do not need 200wpc to effectively drive the LSi's. They would be better off with a quality amp that offers clean, hi-current power that is able to drive the 4ohm load. Under normal listening music or movies you are using not much more then 1wpc out of 200wpc and on the dynamic parts you might step into 50-80wpc the better hi-current unit will put the power out faster and with more authority then the average piece. So given the extra unused portion of the 200wpc amp you do have better control over the drivers but could have saved money by looking at a less powerfull amp and still get quality sound out of your speakers there does come a point of deminishing returns. If money is tight for someone they may not look at the LSi's thinking that nothing short of
200wpc will work and that is just not true.

There are just too many veriables involved when it comes to higher-end audio. When you reach that level everything involved from cd/dvd to pre-pro to amp to cables everything becomes important and effects the sound more noticably then the average entry level audio. But you can't forget that there is always the dreaded diminishing returns and knowing where to call it quits because the speakers just can not do anymore. The Mac used for an example is one such piece (overkill for the LSi's it can provide more then the speakers can do) but you would never have too look elsewhere for a better reciever and your speakers will be putting out everything they have to offer, no question.

My intention is not to start a fight but to provide my opinion and first hand experiance and this thread has gotten crazy attention and some have gave a newbee some unnessary red ass in stead of trying to guide him and explain what might be wrong. I'm not too sure how long I would have been here if that happened to me when I first started and I can tell you I have asked some really stupid questions some I asked more then once because I just didn't understand but the people here (DocSpec especally) were very gracious and patient with me and I am greatful, any reason why there seems to be more bashing happening to newbees then before? we all have to learn some how right?

I hope there are no ill feelings with my statements or opinions.

Dave

Thanks Dave I could not have said any better. Very good right up on gear. A few newbies needed a spank recently for asking, and then ignoring. Sorry I just get a little tired of someone asking an opinion, and then arguing with your response:confused:

[cfrizz]

I'm not getting into this class war again, it's gotten beyond old. If you want to have bragging rights for having a 'Name' go right ahead. Or consider yourself in the big leagues for having a whole lot of aesoteric gear that most aren't interested in but cost alot of money even used, be my guest.

I am a middle class consumer with middle class money. I buy the best middle class product that I can afford at middle class prices, from mostly what are considered middle class vendors.

I try my best to only buy ONCE & keep it for years. I don't want to have to worry about if I have enough, is this going to put anything at risk, so I buy probably more than is necessary, but the peace of mind is PRICELESS!

While for some stuff I will always buy new, I now know that for something like an amp it is best to buy it used. I use the internet for all my research, and in this day & age with all this info available it's foolish not to do so, especially if you are going to spend so much money.

There are lots of variables in this hobby & everyone has an opinion. I'm simply stating what works & makes sense for me. Take it or leave it I couldn't care less. I've got mine & I'm happy with it. If I can help someone else get to that place I'm going to try.

Everything I state is workable, some like it, some don't for whatever reason. If you have to worry about every nickel & dime you put into a system, maybe you need to rethink if you need the system at all at this point since that money should probably be spent on more essential items.

[ben62670]

While for some stuff I will always buy new, I now know that for something like an amp it is best to buy it used. I use the internet for all my research, and in this day & age with all this info available it's foolish not to do so, especially if you are going to spend so much money.


I totally agree with buying a used amp, and lots of other audio equipment. I too have done a ton of research on the internet, and have made purchases based on reviews I have read. There are some problems with doing so. Lots of professional reviews are biased, or bought. A lot of equipment in the better than big store category is judged by people that have not dabbled into Hi-Fi. These people hear mediocre equipment, and think that what they have purchased is the bomb. Before I read a review I like to see what the reviewer has owned to compare it to. Also a lot of people think they have something special because of the designers name being used on it. A lot of amps that are out there have a designers name on it who used to make great equipment, but is now compromising quality to get more profit out of mass sales. As for wattage use I have tested the actual watts being used by speakers at different volumes, and you would be very surprised at what you are actually using. It is all about build quality, and currant.

[Sami]

If you want to have bragging rights for having a 'Name' go right ahead.

Having a 'Name'? Isn't it the same as having bragging rights for having 'xxx amount of power'? What should matter is the quality of the sound.

About the LSi's, George has a good analysis. I did manage to get good bass out of them in my previous bedroom, not so good in the next house. I'm using them now in HT with a subwoofer so bass is not an issue but they still lack a wide sweet area.

BTW, I'm feeding them 200WPC * 2 (bi-amped) but the best they have sounded was with a 100WPC amp that is now driving my SDA's.

[cfrizz]

It's not a brag if it can be proven to be true.:D I and a lot of other people can hear an improved "quality of the sound" with the 200wpc & more. It has been stated time & time again in this & other threads. Especially when it concerns the LSI series. It has been proven that they respond extremely well with the more power you feed them.

But some of you insist on bouncing around like a ball when it comes to this issue rather than be consistant.

If it is just that you don't want to scare people off with the truth of what is needed & the money it will cost to make the speakers sound their best, then you are doing them a great dis-service by not being consistant.

The goal should be to make sure that users are getting the most benefit from their gear. If that means spending more money up front to do so than so be it. Do it once & do it right the first time around then sit back & enjoy.



Having a 'Name'? Isn't it the same as having bragging rights for having 'xxx amount of power'? What should matter is the quality of the sound.

About the LSi's, George has a good analysis. I did manage to get good bass out of them in my previous bedroom, not so good in the next house. I'm using them now in HT with a subwoofer so bass is not an issue but they still lack a wide sweet area.

BTW, I'm feeding them 200WPC * 2 (bi-amped) but the best they have sounded was with a 100WPC amp that is now driving my SDA's.

[sucks2beme]

Bottom line, if it doesn't work for you, move on. No harm, no foul.
Synergy. The right speaker with the right amp and the right source.
If you don't have the big dollar stuff and want to match speaker with
your level of gear, go ahead. A good speaker will often show you
everything wrong with your gear. Been there, done that. Many $$
later and the problem is solved. Stop now before all hope is lost and
six months from now you're buying a $3000 turntable and a tube rig.

[Dennis Gardner]

edited...

[BottomFeeder]

Then I'm editing too!

[Sami]

If it is just that you don't want to scare people off with the truth of what is needed & the money it will cost to make the speakers sound their best, then you are doing them a great dis-service by not being consistant.

If someone is doing a disservice it is you by the "200WPC or more" blanket statement. Yes, the LSi's need a quality amp to sound great, but what you are saying is simply not true. 200WPC or more is not the magic, it's quality. 200WPC does not equal to quality. Quality amps cost money too, you know, so no-one is hiding the fact that high priced gear is very beneficial to LSi's. That doesn't mean they can't sound good with lower end gear though, they still beat any current Polk offering with modest amplification.


The goal should be to make sure that users are getting the most benefit from their gear. If that means spending more money up front to do so than so be it. Do it once & do it right the first time around then sit back & enjoy.

I agree with that, but doing it right does not require or mean an amp with "200WPC or more", and that's a fact. Some amps fall into that category and some don't.

[Face]

I'm not getting into this class war again, it's gotten beyond old. If you want to have bragging rights for having a 'Name' go right ahead. Or consider yourself in the big leagues for having a whole lot of aesoteric gear that most aren't interested in but cost alot of money even used, be my guest.

I am a middle class consumer with middle class money. I buy the best middle class product that I can afford at middle class prices, from mostly what are considered middle class vendors. How is this a class war? :confused: I'm only a county employee and would consider myself middle class also.


While for some stuff I will always buy new, I now know that for something like an amp it is best to buy it used. I use the internet for all my research, and in this day & age with all this info available it's foolish not to do so, especially if you are going to spend so much money.Maybe you should get out and listen to some more gear instead of believing everything you read on the net and bashing products you know little about. Or maybe try some different gear out in your rig, that's the best way to learn.


If someone is doing a disservice it is you by the "200WPC or more" blanket statement. Yes, the LSi's need a quality amp to sound great, but what you are saying is simply not true. 200WPC or more is not the magic, it's quality. 200WPC does not equal to quality. Quality amps cost money too, you know, so no-one is hiding the fact that high priced gear is very beneficial to LSi's. That doesn't mean they can't sound good with lower end gear though, they still beat any current Polk offering with modest amplification.

I agree with that, but doing it right does not require or mean an amp with "200WPC or more", and that's a fact. Some amps fall into that category and some don't.Thank you Sami, I couldn't agree more.

[F1nut]

Guys, that's not his review.

[Dennis Gardner]

Guys, that's not his review.


Thanks Jesse, I'll edit, I misread his post....not trolling, just seeing what all the ruckus is about......

[Gaara]

Yay were back at the 200wpc fight.

I think the point of recommending 200wpc is that few crap amps reach that area, and it will be a improvement over a ht receiver. I have been guilty of listing power as the reason to upgrade to a amp, only because it is easy to explain/understand, and I don't have the patience to list other reasons.


Maybe you should get out and listen to some more gear instead of believing everything you read on the net and bashing products you know little about. Or maybe try some different gear out in your rig, that's the best way to learn.

I can't agree more. I to believed more power = better sound, until I tried more amps. They don't have to be expensive, I am running my LSi7s off a $160 amp and they have never sounded better. You don't necessarily need high power either, I choose a 30wpc amp for my PC rig over my 300wpc Cinenova, because it sounded better irregardless of price (cost me $290 shipped).

If someone is content with their rig, so be it, but they can't really speak from experience until they have experience.

[mule]

In the interest of the original topic....

I'm a relative newb and come here to try and learn and not make the same mistakes many, including myself have made.

So I will post these links to help people like myself, to many it will seem boring and redundant but I think more constructive than insulting others likes and dislikes...

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071214134405AAwsfRj


http://www.bkcomp.com/fileadmin/content/bk_support/FAQ/high%20current%20amps.pdf

Maybe others know of better links to educate, please post.

I would also be curious of the technical reasons a tube amp might sound better with less wattage, so please post a link if you know of one that might explain this, hell, I could end up with 4 home made mono tube amps powering the ht, it would also help to heat the house in the winter :)

[TroyD]

Too bad you didn't like them....a little research goes a long way though to make better purchasing decisions.

Good luck

BDT

[heiney9]

But some of you insist on bouncing around like a ball when it comes to this issue rather than be consistant.

There are way too many variables to make generalizations and blanket statements so that's why some of us bounce around. As a general rule of thumb the 200 wpc rule is good starting point. It's neither necessary nor desirable to have to get the mandatory 200 wpc.

One thing that is very common is the fact that LSi's need some very good amplification to really perform to their capabilities which in most cases doesn't come from and AVR. Now if that's in the form of a 200 wpc amp great. But it can be accomplished with less in many cases.

Cathy you are right to a certain degree about boutique amps but there are two sides to that issue. I happen to like Nelson Pass designs and fortunately they are reasonable on the used market. I can buy one of his designs which is a low power class A amp of 30 watts per channel which will out perform many of the 200 wpc amps. The only thing it will be lacking is max dB output compared to the 200 wpc amp and in my situation that's a non-issue. For someone with a very large room and high ceilings, etc. more watts = more output.

The 200wpc is a very good rule of thumb but it's not an absolute rule nor is it necessary to enjoy LSi's to the greatest degree. If people would take the time to become more educated before they purchase audio (anything for that matter) they should be able to see both sides of the issue.

H9

[engtaz]

Well said heiney9. I could not think of a better way of putting it.

Thanks,
engtaz

[Lowell_M]

As part of the 200 wpc club due to the recommendations of the club in the early days of my addiction, I can say that I'm happy to have entered the world of seperates with the ADCOM GFA-555 with 200 wpc. It wasn't a bad start for a recommendation, but I was recently blown away by a 120 wpc Marsh A200 (part of the DKG999 collection) on my system, which can be had at somewhat similar price ranges in the used market as GFA-555's.

[treitz3]

My guess would be that it is a "blanket answer" for those that are not in the know that covers what most of the general public needs to know in order to get [what the general public would consider] good sound.

What they need is an amp that is rated and capable of handling a 4 ohm load that also has the capacitance and /or current draw necessary to properly power them. This can be achieved at well below a "200 watt minimum".
Cathy, allow me to quote myself. This was my response to why a "minimum of 200 watts" is constantly suggested. No bouncing ball, no swaying of opinion, just fact, and it's not even the end all statement either. It is just a better representation of what is needed to power a 4 ohm or hard to drive speaker, like the LSi's in question.

Perfect example that starts your ball bouncing, if you will. A pair of Original Carver Amazings can't be powered properly with a 375 watt Carver M1.0t or M1.5t amp. Now, looking back at your statement, that's 175 watts OVER your 200 watt minimum. So, if you don't want to lie to people and you don't want to mislead people, then at least tell them the entire truth and not just a tidbit of information. They also need an amplifier that has the capability of handling a nominal 4 ohm load that also has the current capability or design structure/capacitance that has the ability to be able to properly power a hard to drive speaker.

This is just the tip of the ice burg, but if you want to tell the truth and educate people properly so they only make a one time purchase....at least tell them what they need to know. "A minimum of 200 watts" just doesn't cut the cake. ;)

[dorokusai]

Since when did the Carver Amazing require 375wpc+?

[cfrizz]

Thank you H9.

I'm out of this. Those of you who have the knowledge of other lower powered amps that can handle the LSI's need to start speaking up then.

And if some newbie blows up their new speakers with said amps you can also deal with the fallout!

[uvaskeme]

I have an Anthem MCA 30 which pushes 180wpc@8ohms and 265wpc@4ohms. Is it enough to power the LSi's? All the 200wpc talk is scaring me. Thx

[Frank Z]

Plenty of power. I'm using an Outlaw 7100 that puts out 165WPC with all 7 channels driven into my 7 LSi's.

[heiney9]

Thank you H9.

You're welcome.

There is validity to what you preach, especially for those who don't want to make the effort and do the research and get the experience. My entire point is there is an alternative if one is willing to spend the time and put in the effort to become educated and get more enjoyment from the hobby.

If one is looking to set-up a nice well mannered HT system that is "fuss" free and is basically a "turn it on and play it" type system, then that person would be well covered if they use the 200 wpc rule.

If one wants a little more finesse and flexibility and wanting another level of fidelity for music, etc. then there might be better choices in amplification out there and they most likely won't need and won't offer 200 wpc and will fit the bill just fine.

That's my take on the 200 wpc rule. :)

H9

[LessisNevermore]

I have an Anthem MCA 30 which pushes 180wpc@8ohms and 265wpc@4ohms. Is it enough to power the LSi's? All the 200wpc talk is scaring me. Thx


Any high current amp will do fine, regardless of wattage.


I ran my set of LSi's off Denon receivers for 4 years, and never had a problem, as long as you don't get stupid loud,(clipping) they'll be fine. When I did add an amp, it was like getting new speakers, all over again.

Unless you're trying to power the LSi's from a sony, jvc, pioneer avr, etc., the amp requirement tends to get a bit overstated.

[heiney9]

Any high current amp will do fine, regardless of wattage.


I ran my set of LSi's off Denon receivers for 4 years, and never had a problem, as long as you don't get stupid loud,(clipping) they'll be fine. When I did add an amp, it was like getting new speakers, all over again.

Unless you're trying to power the LSi's from a sony, jvc, pioneer avr, etc., the amp requirement tends to get a bit overstated.

Shout out to another local Polkie :cool:. I'm up the street in Rockford.

Not to be a jerk but you kind of contradict yourself. Stating that the amp made them seem like new speakers and then closing with the amp requirement tends to a get bit overstated.

That's a contradiction to me. Sounds like there was a substantial improvement by adding an amp so how could it be overstated to endorse adding external amplification. :confused:

H9

[treitz3]

I'm out of this. Those of you who have the knowledge of other lower powered amps that can handle the LSI's need to start speaking up then.
Cathy, I have a feeling that you think that I was pouncing on you. That was not my intention and if that's the way it came across, I apologize. Allow me to offer a suggestion......

Instead of saying that you need a minimum of 200 watts, say something like this, for example. "It is generally recommended that a minimum of 200 watts is required to properly power the LSi's, but you must also consider that this is a "general" rule. What can considerably change this "generalized" rule is doing some research on an amp that is rated and has the capability of handling a nominal 4 ohm load that also has the current capability or design structure/capacitance necessary to properly power them."


And if some newbie blows up their new speakers with said amps you can also deal with the fallout!
There is no more worry with current than there is with watts when it comes to blowing up speakers. The same rules apply.


Since when did the Carver Amazing require 375wpc+?
Huh? I don't recall ever saying that. I was just stating that if you tried to power an Original ALS with a Carver M1.0t or a M1.5t, even though they are rated at well above 200 watts per channel, they will not power them properly tis' all.

[heiney9]

Instead of saying that you need a minimum of 200 watts, say something like this, for example. "It is generally recommended that a minimum of 200 watts is required to properly power the LSi's, but you must also consider that this is a "general" rule. What can considerably change this "generalized" rule is doing some research on an amp that is rated and has the capability of handling a nominal 4 ohm load that also has the current capability or design structure/capacitance necessary to properly power them."


Cathy doesn't need anyone to defend her (she does it quite well herself) and I have no issue with you Treitz, but it becomes a slippery slope when you start suggesting how others should word their opinion and POV. Her point has always been well presented and that's her opinion. I see no need for her to broaden or soften it to make it more palpable to others.

H9

[F1nut]

New rule. You need 300wpc.

[heiney9]

New rule. You need 300wpc.

WOW, not a suggestion, but a rule. I'm way off. Guess I should pack my gear up and put in the closet until I can acquire the mandatory 300 wpc. :):p:D

[tonyb]

I see the forum is back in rare form....again.:D

[treitz3]

Hey, she can take it or leave it. It was just a suggestion that would/could be a more accurate "blanket statement". I'm quite sure I, or anybody else for that matter will ever change her opinion. ;)

[Lowell_M]

New rule. You need 300wpc.

Damn it. Now I have to buy a new amp. :eek:

[heiney9]

Damn it. Now I have to buy a new amp. :eek:

I think your good......LSi's are 4 ohm load and the 555 is 325 wpc into 4 ohms. You just squeaked by ;)

H9

[treitz3]

If it is just that you don't want to scare people off with the truth of what is needed & the money it will cost to make the speakers sound their best, then you are doing them a great dis-service by not being consistent.

The goal should be to make sure that users are getting the most benefit from their gear. If that means spending more money up front to do so than so be it. Do it once & do it right the first time around then sit back & enjoy.
Just for the record, this is why I made the suggestion. I wasn't trying to be a dick or anything, but read what she wrote. The 200 watt minimum doesn't cover getting the most benefit...it's a start which is why I offered the suggestion.

[heiney9]

Just for the record, this is why I made the suggestion. I wasn't trying to be a dick or anything, but read what she wrote. The 200 watt minimum doesn't cover getting the most benefit...it's a start which is why I offered the suggestion.

You are regular contributor and I never personally thought/think that and I doubt any regular contributor here thinks that. My post may have come across more harsh than I intended but my point was mixed in there. That's all.

H9

[polkatese]

4 pages of why LSi's need proper amplification?

yep, we're back to square one.again.

[F1nut]

Do it once & do it right the first time around then sit back & enjoy.

Yeah right! Like that ever happens.

[heiney9]

4 pages of why LSi's need proper amplification?

yep, we're back to square one.again.

Yea, but it's been a fun ride!!! If noobs would use the search feature these types of things wouldn't get rehashed all the time.............atleast not in an entirely new thread.

Such is the nature of these types of forums.

H9

[MikeC78]

I think Polk needs to place a disclaimer in the owner's manual on their LSi series. Explaining on how beneficial it would be to properly amplify the speakers, and not run them on a "run of the mill" AVR.

The average Joe has no idea on what he actually needs, and most of the salesman I've dealt were not educated on the subject matter either.

[tonyb]

I think Polk needs to place a disclaimer in the owner's manual on their LSi series. Explaining on how beneficial it would be to properly amplify the speakers, and not run them on a "run of the mill" AVR.

The average Joe has no idea on what he actually needs, and most of the salesman I've dealt were not educated on the subject matter either.

You have a point to a certain degree.....To avoid people bad mouthing speakers without proper set up or requirements being stated.I would imagine other speaker companies have the same problem.When you get higher up the food chain though,you never see higher end speakers being driven by an AVR.Is it common sense? Maybe higher end speaker companies take the time to show distributers how to display their products? I do wish Polk was more involved in that end of it.Basic audio knowledge is not common place in your local big box stores....sad in a way I guess.Presentation is everything,so they used to say.

[heiney9]

I think Polk needs to place a disclaimer in the owner's manual on their LSi series. Explaining on how beneficial it would be to properly amplify the speakers, and not run them on a "run of the mill" AVR.

The average Joe has no idea on what he actually needs, and most of the salesman I've dealt were not educated on the subject matter either.

Problem is then you are putting in print a generalizations plus if you exclude certain manufacturer's by name or product design you alienate consumers and other manufacturer's. It's up to the customer to research and find out if the product fits his needs.

For many people an AVR will be just fine because of how they use the LSi's. The point of this whole thread is don't be so hasty to throw the baby out with the bathwater. More investigation by the OP might have solved his displeasure with the product.

H9

[MikeC78]

I think it would be a great suggestion, and may open the eyes of the ignorant when they purchase them.

BTW, what about the people that purchase BOSE? Look at their sales figures, do you think the people that purchase them do their research?

[obieone]

The way I see it, the stores that sell these speakers aren't doing it right.
Shite! I was listening to a pr. of RTi12's, off an 90wpc avr, and the Tweeter clown told me that "you DON'T want to OVER amp these speakers- you'll blow them!"
Friggin 12's are rated @ 500wpc!!!
What's worse, is that Polk is-allegedly- gonna start selling via Best Buy.

[LessisNevermore]

Shout out to another local Polkie :cool:. I'm up the street in Rockford.

Not to be a jerk but you kind of contradict yourself. Stating that the amp made them seem like new speakers and then closing with the amp requirement tends to a get bit overstated.

That's a contradiction to me. Sounds like there was a substantial improvement by adding an amp so how could it be overstated to endorse adding external amplification. :confused:

H9

No contradiction, the speakers sounded great with the avr, and there were no physical problems with running in that config. When the amp was attached, the clouds parted, bass response improved, yadda, yadda......

The overstatement comes, when an amp is adamantly said to be a requirement, to run LSi's. It's just not true, I know, I did it. They did not implode/explode/melt/disintegrate. Hell, my Denon never even got overly warm. (and I like to go loud)

The amp was a substantial improvement, and was always part of the upgrade path, as I believe it should be for all LSi owners, but you can eek by with a decent avr, and have a great sounding system, until funds are available. Key word being, decent.

[Sami]

I ran 5 LSi7's with HK AVR7200 and neer had any problems. Loud, very loud. Of course, it's TOTL receiver from HK so the power is there. Never tried it with the 15's but I don't think it would have any problem powering them either. Decent sound quality as well, made the LSi's sing very well, still using it for the surrounds (otherwise it's a preamp now). Some external amps are an improvement over it, some are definitely not.

[ward91]

In the interest of the original topic....

I'm a relative newb and come here to try and learn and not make the same mistakes many, including myself have made.

So I will post these links to help people like myself, to many it will seem boring and redundant but I think more constructive than insulting others likes and dislikes...

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071214134405AAwsfRj


http://www.bkcomp.com/fileadmin/content/bk_support/FAQ/high%20current%20amps.pdf

Maybe others know of better links to educate, please post.

I would also be curious of the technical reasons a tube amp might sound better with less wattage, so please post a link if you know of one that might explain this, hell, I could end up with 4 home made mono tube amps powering the ht, it would also help to heat the house in the winter :)

i know this isn’t a pro discussion but where do pro amps come into this?? i would have thought a watt is a watt. if you run out you clip.
is a high current amp one witch has a multi rail psu??
“High-current
amplifiers will not shut down when the speaker presents a difficult load due to varying dynamics in
source material.”
So what a low current design will? even if within the rated impedance

“A “high-current” amplifier is capable of delivering power into low impedance loads (speakers)
without going into protection and/or shutting down”.
So here (the link below) we have all high current top notch hi-fi audiophile amps?? As they wont shut down due to low impedance loads or go into protection. (not saying some wont kick ass but some will suck as a hi-fi amp)


http://www.thomann.de/gb/amps_up_to_800_w.html

[ward91]

ps. dot digging the mule

also relating to what i know,
my crown xs 500 pro amp(which i love to listen to music through on my hi-fi floorstanders ). is rated 400wrms@8ohms , 500wrms@4ohms, and 750wrms@2ohms. by the saying of Bkcomp in the 2nd link this will make my amp a high voltage and low current as it doesn’t double output as impedance halves. but also goes against what they say because it CAN continually drive a 2ohm load.
or is this just crown rating their amps "wrong".

i do however agree that a higher current design would fair a lot better with a low impedance or challenging load than a higher voltage design.

[mightymouse]

If you really want tons of power for not a lot of money, you can look into pro amps.

Behringer makes one that outputs 1,200 watts per channel x2 into 2 ohms. It is stable down into 2 ohms. Not many consumer grade amps can make this kind of claim with a straight face. Just be careful don't blow out your woofers.:D

http://www.behringer.com/EP2500/index.cfm?lang=eng

Of course with pro amps, they are probably biased much more towards the class B end compared to consumer grade amps. And pro amps use active cooling as opposed to passive cooling, so you have to keep the amp tucked behind some cabinet or something to avoid hearing the fan noise.

But if money is tight, pro amps are a great way to add some serious power to your speakers.

[Sami]

Cheap power and most of the cases also cheap sound. I tried running a Samson S1000 (500W * 2) with RTi150's, oh boy, not very good. Some people seem to like Crown amps with home equipment but I haven't heard any myself so can't comment if they are much better. Behringer, I wouldn't match them with home audio speakers myself.

[mightymouse]

Sami, what didn't you like about the Samson?

[Face]

It was probably bright sounding, like many pro audio amps.

[ward91]

again a bit off topic but, i would prefer just from looking ,that my crown amp drive a set of speakers continually at higher volumes than a carver, but then again what would the sound difference be like? I know they are meant to sound amazingly good but, I wouldn’t be at “peace of mind” as apparently the carvers can flame?? So what will the carver be rated if it is rated due to thermal limitation?

[Sami]

Sami, what didn't you like about the Samson?

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61705

Posts 7 & 9.

[mightymouse]

Thanks Sami for the link.

Well, pro amps are designed with an emphasis on linear response and maximum power. Maybe this is the reason why pro amps sound bright. Many people find studio monitors sound bright as well.

My guess is that the Carver amp, and many consumer grade amps probably shave a couple of db from the top end, to make them sound more mellow.

[treitz3]

again a bit off topic but, i would prefer just from looking ,that my crown amp drive a set of speakers continually at higher volumes than a carver, but then again what would the sound difference be like? I know they are meant to sound amazingly good but, I wouldn’t be at “peace of mind” as apparently the carvers can flame?? So what will the carver be rated if it is rated due to thermal limitation?
You have the Carver M1.5t and it has an internal cutoff once it reaches a certain internal temperature. When the internal temperature exceeds the limit, the overload light at the left of the faceplate of the amp turns on and the amp shuts down. It will not "flame up" as you say. The sound difference should be totally different. Carver had a "t" mod done on that amp that is emulated to sound like a tube amp, unlike a pro amp.

[cfrizz]

I think you broke it down very well H9.

I approach this hobby from a totally different angle from 99% of the 'active' posters on here. My enjoyment comes from listening to my music & watching my movies. I have neither the time, money, energy, or inclination to be constantly swapping, selling, packing up, picking up, etc. audio gear. Not everyone does, nor should it be required.

But make no mistake, I did plenty of research before I shelled out my hard earned money. I have always been fortunate enough to buy good quality gear the first time around based on my research and it has served me well for a long long time.

My philosophy for this hobby fits quite well with a great many women. The vast majority of us have no problem with you guys getting the gear. It's when we see you CONSTANTLY changing the gear for God only knows what reason that we start getting irritated with the whole thing.

Now if you are a millionaire, or single, knock yourself out. But if you are 1 of 2 people in a marriage & you do this, I understand perfectly why some of you are getting bitched at. I would be doing the same.

So as far as I'm concerned we are trying to reach 2 totally different audiences. My message is aimed at people who are interested in getting a system put together that they can enjoy for several years with a minimum of fuss, bother, aggravation, & problems.

And also give them a few options for when/if they start thinking about doing some upgrades. Which includes NOT upgrading a piece of equipment like an amp because it has enough juice to drive any speaker that it is hooked up to.

Thank you for understanding where I'm coming from H9 & giving me some credit for having a sound plan.



You're welcome.

There is validity to what you preach, especially for those who don't want to make the effort and do the research and get the experience. My entire point is there is an alternative if one is willing to spend the time and put in the effort to become educated and get more enjoyment from the hobby.

If one is looking to set-up a nice well mannered HT system that is "fuss" free and is basically a "turn it on and play it" type system, then that person would be well covered if they use the 200 wpc rule.

If one wants a little more finesse and flexibility and wanting another level of fidelity for music, etc. then there might be better choices in amplification out there and they most likely won't need and won't offer 200 wpc and will fit the bill just fine.

That's my take on the 200 wpc rule. :)

H9

[ohskigod]

Too bad you didn't like them....a little research goes a long way though to make better purchasing decisions.


BDT


game...set...match to TROY LOL
it's good to find the forum and research BEFORE you buy or return the speakers....just my .02 :D

[be83663]

:D:D:D Brad, thanks for giving me a huge laugh tonight!!! CLASSIC!:D:D:D

Hmmm...so Cathy likes Brad...:rolleyes:

[dave shepard]

My philosophy for this hobby fits quite well with a great many women. The vast majority of us have no problem with you guys getting the gear. It's when we see you CONSTANTLY changing the gear for God only knows what reason that we start getting irritated with the whole thing.

Now if you are a millionaire, or single, knock yourself out. But if you are 1 of 2 people in a marriage & you do this, I understand perfectly why some of you are getting bitched at. I would be doing the same.

Thank you for understanding where I'm coming from H9 & giving me some credit for having a sound plan.

Thanks Cathy now I know what my wifes problem is and I am working on that. Can you talk to her about always changing the room and colors in the house for me?...:D

I can see where you are comming from but if you look at alot of manuf. NAD especally you will see that they offer a really nice product that can perform and handle the load with ease. If you were in the market for a LSi system and having the understanding you have would you consider purchasing the brand?
NAD has no amp or reciever that puts out 200wpc but will drive the LSi's very well. Their T973 amp has 7x140wpc and even their Master series amp the M25 has only 7x160wpc and I know they would work well (especally the Master) and give the LSi's everything they need and then some. As far as the Mac
MHT200 reciever I had thrown in the mix it has only 6x120wpc and that is a whole nother animal that would no doubt in my mind perform like nobody's business and would now cost less then yours and my set-up priced new.
The set-up you are using is a good one and is nice no doubt and it just so happens to have well over 200wpc so you are good to go and then some for a long time but just because it has over 200wpc doesn't mean that one with fewer wpc won't work as well for a long time either.
With alot of people looking to get into this hobby for the most part buy new and at the new price... My set-up goes for over 5k and yours for over 5k and both will do well with the LSi's but some they may not be ready or willing to spend that now or possibly ever but that does not mean that they would have to spend that to run them nicely because they feel they have to be in the 200w category, they can spend less with alittle guidance and get great results for their application. As a result everybody would be happy, the consumer the store and Polk.
The problem in this persons instance is that the salesman IMO did not do his homework in trying to understand his needs and wants properly and as a result the customer was unhappy and things were returned, now nobody has anything and no sale was made, that is a bummer. I know you can walk into any store and talk to 3 different salesmen with the same LSi buying plan and come out with 3 different set-up's. The stores that standout are the ones that will sit down with you and without telling you what is included in the set-up let you deside which suits your needs and sounds best, kind of like a blind test with different pieces. In the end you may be suprised with what you end up with and the 200wpc may not be in the mix. The biggest problem is that those stores are so few and far between.
So basicly one can still look at getting the LSi's and be very happy with them and still not be in the 200wpc arena because there are manufactures such as NAD that can deliver the quality power they need to sound amazing.

Dave

[cfrizz]

Lol! Too funny Dave. Tell your wife to get a busier job so that she doesn't have so much time to constantly rearrange the house!:eek::D (That would drive me crazy!)

I guess that there probably aren't too many NAD users on here driving an entire LSI system & raving about it. If there were, my opinion might be different.

Would MY gear choices change? No they wouldn't. I always spend more up front and get what some on here would call "overkill" to ensure that what I have will last & sound great. (I'm just hardwired that way.)

I'm not really willing to spend 5k new either, and you make an excellent point about buy new when first getting into this hobby as I was of the same mindset. It has only been with experience that I realize that for some gear it's a good thing to buy used. The cost of my 2 Sunfire pieces didn't come close to 5k since I purchased them used. But a newbie probably isn't going to do that.

And you are absolutely correct that finding good knowlegeble sales people in audio is getting harder & harder to come by.

[Sami]

I guess that there probably aren't too many NAD users on here driving an entire LSI system & raving about it. If there were, my opinion might be different.

NAD is just one example, there are many others. The products that have less than 200WPC that have successfully driven LSi's to ear deafening levels, if needed, in my setups: HK AVR7200, Adcom GFA7400, B&K AV5000, Aragon 2004. None of them had any problems whatsoever, and all are around 100WPC mark.

All had their own tonal character, and what you like the best is a personal preference. I happened to like the 100WPC Aragon, and that's an amp that will put most 200WPC+ amps that people have here to shame in both tone and ability to drive hard loads.

Now, the Aragon is around $400-500 used, and you could have a 200WPC Adcom 555 for a little less than that. Based on your rule, people shouldn't even consider the Aragon and should opt for the Adcom. Huge mistake, HUGE. IMHO of course, I have heard both and while both have the ability to drive, the Aragon is just so much better sounding piece, especially with LSi's. That's just one example why the 200WPC is bad, although the basic principle is good.

[mightymouse]

Is Aragon still in business? I can't find their website.

[sucks2beme]

Is Aragon still in business? I can't find their website.

http://www.stereophile.com/news/10966/

Mondial, maker of Acurus and Aragon was sold and the product lines
just kind of died off.

[heiney9]

Is Aragon still in business? I can't find their website.

No not officially. The subsidiary that owns Klipsch bought Aragon about 2-3 years ago and they have slowly let the Aragon line die. They will still continue to support service, parts, etc.

www.klipsch.com

[mightymouse]

That's a strange business move.

Why would someone pay money to buy up Aragon, and then just let the Aragon line die off? Doesn't this mean that whoever bought up Aragon lost all their investment?



No not officially. The subsidiary that owns Klipsch bought Aragon about 2-3 years ago and they have slowly let the Aragon line die. They will still continue to support service, parts, etc.

www.klipsch.com

[heiney9]

That's a strange business move.

Why would someone pay money to buy up Aragon, and then just let the Aragon line die off? Doesn't this mean that whoever bought up Aragon lost all their investment?

What investment? They probably wanted to raid the R & D of the company. Mondial was on the skids whne taken over by Klipsch. Midfi lines like Aragon are dying all the time. Adcom is a shell of the original company and has been sold atleast 3 times.

It's just way the electronics market is. Large corporations go where the money is.

[be83663]

I'm not getting into this class war again, it's gotten beyond old. If you want to have bragging rights for having a 'Name' go right ahead. Or consider yourself in the big leagues for having a whole lot of aesoteric gear that most aren't interested in but cost alot of money even used, be my guest.

I am a middle class consumer with middle class money. I buy the best middle class product that I can afford at middle class prices, from mostly what are considered middle class vendors.

I try my best to only buy ONCE & keep it for years. I don't want to have to worry about if I have enough, is this going to put anything at risk, so I buy probably more than is necessary, but the peace of mind is PRICELESS!

While for some stuff I will always buy new, I now know that for something like an amp it is best to buy it used. I use the internet for all my research, and in this day & age with all this info available it's foolish not to do so, especially if you are going to spend so much money.

There are lots of variables in this hobby & everyone has an opinion. I'm simply stating what works & makes sense for me. Take it or leave it I couldn't care less. I've got mine & I'm happy with it. If I can help someone else get to that place I'm going to try.

Everything I state is workable, some like it, some don't for whatever reason. If you have to worry about every nickel & dime you put into a system, maybe you need to rethink if you need the system at all at this point since that money should probably be spent on more essential items.

You talk a lot like I did when I was defending for my Onkyo TX-SR805 receiver.

I recommend that you get an higher-end esoteric amp; it will sound better than your middle class amp! :D

[Dennis Gardner]

You talk a lot like I did when I was defending for my Onkyo TX-SR805 receiver.

I recommend that you get an higher-end esoteric amp; it will sound better than your middle class amp! :D


Yep you're kinda new around here aren't you??..........Cfrizz runs a $3-5K Sunfire rig. Most likely will smoke your $500 Emo on order.......hardly middle class.::rolleyes:

[Lowell_M]

Yep you're kinda new around here aren't you??..........Cfrizz runs a $3-5K Sunfire rig. Most likely will smoke your $500 Emo on order.......hardly middle class.::rolleyes:

I'd put a 120wpc Marsh A200 upagainst that 400wpc Sunfire rig any day of the week. (actually, I did on a Saturday and the outcome far favored the Marsh) Edit - I just re-read CFrizz's sig. The amp we reviewed was a TGA-7400...different Sunfire amp, but still 400 wpc.

I can't believe this thread has lasted so long... :rolleyes:

[Jer.War]

Hey Sami,
It sounds like you have quite a bit of experience with different makes of amps. Could you spout a few words about their different tonal qualities
This goes for anyone with a nice power amp, I`m researching to upgrade from my yamaha to drive my LSI`s (prob just 2 channel). I watch alot of movies and love to listen to some nice tunes. A tend to enjoy a warmer mellower sound, with good bottom end. Any suggestions oh wise polk masters

[Dennis Gardner]

I like what Marsh has to offer too, but I just wondered if he considered the Emotiva that he chose to be of the higher end esoteric level he speaks so highly of.

[Sami]

I like what Marsh has to offer too, but I just wondered if he considered the Emotiva that he chose to be of the higher end esoteric level he speaks so highly of.

Emotiva high end? Entry level price, can't say about performance other than people saying it's great bang for the buck. Sunfire/Carver, that's middle class for sure, not high end.

[Sami]

A tend to enjoy a warmer mellower sound, with good bottom end. Any suggestions oh wise polk masters

Sounds like you would enjoy B&K's offerings, and they wouldn't break the bank either. I had AV5000 driving my LSi15's, excellent performer. Solid middle class. :)

[be83663]

Yep you're kinda new around here aren't you??..........Cfrizz runs a $3-5K Sunfire rig. Most likely will smoke your $500 Emo on order.......hardly middle class.::rolleyes:

No, I don't consider Emotiva as a higher-end esoteric level amp, of course not. McIntosh is, for example. It will sound much better than my $500 Emotiva for sure, whereas middle class amp might sound only just better than mine!

I was saying that it is harder to change someone's opinion when he or she learned to be or wants to be content with what he (a receiver in my case) or she (a middile class amp in her case) has! :D

[Lowell_M]

I like what Marsh has to offer too, but I just wondered if he considered the Emotiva that he chose to be of the higher end esoteric level he speaks so highly of.

I was being a smart ass:o

[Jstas]

Huh? I don't recall ever saying that. I was just stating that if you tried to power an Original ALS with a Carver M1.0t or a M1.5t, even though they are rated at well above 200 watts per channel, they will not power them properly tis' all.

Really? Well, this is where you implied it:



Perfect example that starts your ball bouncing, if you will. A pair of Original Carver Amazings can't be powered properly with a 375 watt Carver M1.0t or M1.5t amp. Now, looking back at your statement, that's 175 watts OVER your 200 watt minimum. So, if you don't want to lie to people and you don't want to mislead people, then at least tell them the entire truth and not just a tidbit of information. They also need an amplifier that has the capability of handling a nominal 4 ohm load that also has the current capability or design structure/capacitance that has the ability to be able to properly power a hard to drive speaker.


And honestly as an owner of a pair of original Amazings and also one who is in possession of an actual owner's manual, I can say that you are incorrect. Bob Carver himself has said that the absolute minimum you need is 120 watts to power an Amazing and your dynamics and low-end grunt will suffer. Bob recommends at least 200-220 watts to drive them effectively but you will only have low listening levels available. Which is fine because Bob's "low listening level" apparently is much higher than everyone else because the Amazings will still shake the whole house at such levels. They are rated to handle something like 2200-2400 watts each. I can't remember for sure.

Currently, I have a Rotel amplifier powering them and it is putting out around 210 watts at the current load that Amazings present. I don't get the volume that other Amazing owners get but the sound quality is quite impressive anyway. However, I do have better amplification in mind and am in the process of acquiring said amplification. Once it is in place, I will speak more of it.

Now, all this horse hockey about an M1.0t not being able to handle Amazings...yeah, I call shenanigans. Any Carver amp with a 't' in the model name was designed with Bob's transfer function duplication. That came out of Bob building amplifiers that matched the sounds of high end amps with his cheaper and more powerful designs. The amplifiers that Bob built for Stereophile Magazine's acceptance of his challenge duplicated the likes of the Conrad-Johnson Premier Five and the Mark Levinson ML-2. Those amps were the prototypes of the M1.0t, the M1.5t and the M4.0t. The later lines of TFM amplifiers were more robust but all the t and TFM models were designed as high current powerhouses that were super clean and could push any speaker in Carver's lineup and pretty much anyone else's for that matter. That includes the Amazings. The 't' series was more than capable of driving the speakers and the TFM series was specifically designed to drive the Amazings. I really think that your findings are off base. I have also noticed that Amazings are very finicky with placement and if you can't have ideal placement, you need to have room treatments. Several people who have had bad experiences with Amazings have had such experiences not because of gear or power but because they did not place them effectively. Then again, they are 2-way dipoles and they can be a pain to place and get to image correctly.

But this is off-topic now. I'll butt-out since I have never really listened to LSi 15's or 25's outside of Polk HQ.

[phuz]

I had them for about 3 weeks.

They need a good 100+ hours of good use before they start to open/sweeten up.

[treitz3]

Incorrect. I never implied it. I stated that a Carver M1.0t and an M1.5t will not properly power a set of Original Amazings. I know for a fact that they will not. I have both amplifiers and I had them both hooked up to a pair of Original Amazings in my house. Both of the amplifiers could barely get loud enough to disrupt normal talking levels and there really was no dynamics compared to hooking those same speakers up to a Lightstar pre and a Lightstar amp.

I need no introduction or history lesson from anybody concerning Carver gear. I'm already well versed in both Carver's amplifiers and speakers and have experience to back it up in a variety of situations, trust me. As far as me being incorrect and you calling Shenanigans, it is apparent to me that you are relying on spec's to make your statement and not experience. Had you actually experienced what you preached, you would realize that I am correct. Next.

[TroyD]

There was an interview with Bob, somewhere, recently and he was talking about the orignial ALS's. He even said that his amps weren't really enough to do them justice...and that the market just didn't accept the low senstivity.

When I get a minute, I'll look.

That said, having owned the original ALS, I had a couple of amps that would do them just fine...but most amps aren't up to the task.

BDT

[F1nut]

You also have to consider that they have a maximum output of 110db. For some, that's just getting warmed up. :)

[skipf]

Carver built the Silver 7t & Silver 9t amps with powering the ALS in mind. They are both 575wpc into 8 ohms. The ALS originals were 4 ohm, The Plats are 8 ohm and more efficient than the originals. I originally powered my Plats with an M-500t and that just didn't cut it. You will never hear the full potential of the ALS series at 200wpc.

[venomclan]

Watts are watts and wire is wire. :)

[Jstas]

Had you actually experienced what you preached, you would realize that I am correct. Next.

Heh. I like your assumptions. You're a funny guy! Obviously I'm relying on specs because I've never heard Amazings or Amazings Platinums before. I mean I don't listen to a pair every day. And nobody I know powers them with Carver amps of any kind, at all, ever. Geez, what kind of jackass am I? I wonder who would do something so silly? I mean treitz3 says that is how it is so it MUST be true! His experience is so much more in depth than anyone else anyone knows. So that must be the defacto standard? I'm glad you could straighten me out. I wouldn't want to go through life being such an inferior person. Hey, do you think I might be able to touch the bottom of your robe? I'll give you $5 bucks! :rolleyes:

[sucks2beme]

How did a lsi thread turn into a Carver thread???

[NotaSuv]

How did a lsi thread turn into a Carver thread???

among many other sidetracks.....I love the post about the guy who will touch the kings robe for 5 bucks ;)

[Jstas]

How did a lsi thread turn into a Carver thread???

How about we stop asking questions like this and let it go back to an LSi thread. Although, the distinction has also been tenuous and dubious from the start.

[treitz3]

I mean treitz3 says that is how it is so it MUST be true!
You said it, not I. :D

[markmarc]

First, EarlyB's term of "audio impotence" isn't a bad idea.

High current receivers are a bit of a misnomer, yes, they can apply a large reserve of power, but only for a split second. But to dismiss all receivers would be silly. A Bryston would have no problem with the LSi15's.

I will debate that it doesn't take 200wpc to make the LSi sing, as it's all about quality power, not massive power. If your amp section has a truly serious power supply it won't have any problem digging deep. Paul DiComo heard the LSi9's sound killer on a 70wpc Arcam.

[Erik Tracy]

If I remember my psycho-acoustics correctly, isn't the 'just noticable difference' in sound pressure levels (decibels) = 3db?

And that with every 3db increase it requires x2 the power (watts)?

If the LSis have an efficiency of 89db -measured at 1 meter with one 1 watt input can't the output be mapped against what the amp should be rated at?

89db = 1 watt
92db = 2 watts (just noticable difference of +3db)
95db = 4 watts
98db = 8 watts
101db = 16 watts
104db = 32 watts
107db = 64 watts

I guess it depends on whether the speaker in question has an output that follows this progression or if it is a less efficient climb in output -if so then the power demands on the amp are even greater.

And you need to account for what your "average" listening preference is to then estimate how much reserve (power or current) your amp needs to keep you from clipping and damaging the drivers.

So, if you had a +6db transient (like a boom or crash) and your average listening level was at 104db - then the amp would need to provide x4 power or 128watts for however long the transient is - without clipping of course.

And isn't efficiency measured at 1 meter from the driver so that if you were listening 10 ft back, the spl at that distance is lower than 104db?

I guess it depends on what 'sing' means in relation to user preference in loudness and size of the room?

Just stirring the pot...
Erik

[tonyb]

Yaaaawn !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Erik Tracy]

Yaaaawn !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry - I'm an engineer by trade.

Numbers are needed when designing stuff :D

Just thought that some sort of rationale could be confirmed for a general rule that "LSIs typically need xxx watts to sing".

Erik

[tonyb]

Quality over quantity my man.Current delivery over wattage.Loudness has absolutely nothing to do with making them "sing".

[GV#27]

, isn't the 'just noticable difference' in sound pressure levels (decibels) = 3db?

1 db or so is close to the threshold of being perceptable,a 3 db
difference would be very noticeable.

[Erik Tracy]

1 db or so is close to the threshold of being perceptable,a 3 db
difference would be very noticeable.

I see that a google search does indicate that the jnd is at 1db and that 3db is now considered 'clearly noticable'. Although I did find one college website that listed the 3db measure as the 'jnd'.

But, anyway the scale still applies as far as absolute db vs power.

And as a reference point, a nightclub is measured at about 110db - that's pretty darn 'loud'.

The point I was attempting to illustrate is that power demands go up quickly the louder you push a speaker to play - so that it's initial efficiency rating is a factor to consider in possible pairings between speaker and amp and one's listening habits.

But you guys all know that....which is why I expect I got the "yawn" reply (no harm no foul).

And, c'mon, don't we all get that devilish grin on our faces when you 'crank it up' and you see that your amp is hardly breathing :p

Erik

[GV#27]

The point I was attempting to illustrate is that power demands go up quickly the louder you push a speaker to play - so that it's initial efficiency rating is a factor to consider in possible pairings between speaker and amp and one's listening habits.Agreed, good point Erik.[QUOTE]

[olilugo]

Here are my findings on limited research:
1. most avr's will not be able to drive 4ohm speakers, I will go further to say if the avr is not design to handle 4 ohm then an extra amplifier will make little to no difference that I would say wow now I appreciate this.
2. If you buy a avr that can handle 4 ohm speakers like NAD or even Yamaha, then adding an external amp will have a very appreciative increase in all the different words that most of us use: greater soundstage, clear, etc.
3. Probably the best approach is to have a pre amplifier and an external amplifier (most people call this separates).

On a side note having a pre or an avr that have higher sensitivity, adding an external amplifier will give you a more appreciative increase in power/performance, while if the avr has a lower sensitivity, adding an external amp will seam as you have not done anything since the volume will still be at -10 as before adding the external amp.

[F1nut]

Huh?

[Sami]

Here are my findings on limited research:
1. most avr's will not be able to drive 4ohm speakers, I will go further to say if the avr is not design to handle 4 ohm then an extra amplifier will make little to no difference that I would say wow now I appreciate this.

An AVR is an integrated package, think of it as a preamplifier and an amplifier in one package. If an AVR isn't capable of driving 4ohm loads, it's the amplifier section that is lacking. If you add an external amplifier (that handles 4ohm), you're bypassing the AVR's internal amplifier (that wasn't able to drive 4ohm loads). Now you have a preamplifier and an amplifier that is capable of driving the 4ohm speakers.

Hope that helps.

[tonyb]

Sorry Erik,didn't mean to come off as a prick.[ shut up the rest of you].The point you were trying to make was well taken.Just that sometimes the same stuff gets beaten to death around here on a daily basis,hence the "yawn".

[reeltrouble1]

I will debate that it doesn't take 200wpc to make the LSi sing, as it's all about quality power, not massive power. If your amp section has a truly serious power supply it won't have any problem digging deep. Paul DiComo heard the LSi9's sound killer on a 70wpc Arcam.

Excellent. Seems as though the idea of an amplifier clipping has been lost somewhere in the spin of watts stats. I can assure anyone looking at NAD as their power choice that the company is an excellent choice. Arcam should be on anyone's list, actually the short list.

RT1

[Erik Tracy]

Sorry Erik,didn't mean to come off as a prick.[ shut up the rest of you].The point you were trying to make was well taken.Just that sometimes the same stuff gets beaten to death around here on a daily basis,hence the "yawn".

No prob...I'm a noob here.

I figure that the 'veterans' here will from time to time either smile and quaintly think "isn't the noobie cute" or "here we go again".....

It's all good....enjoy the sound...

But, suffer me this one question in regards to 'quality' power.

The ability to move a driver is measured in power or watts.

And if a user is asking his/her setup to deliver more that what is 'rated' - in watts - how does the power supply behind the amplication circuitry mitigate overdriving beyond an amps rated power rating?

Thanks,
Erik

[garnier]

I am listening to my system consisting of all LSi speakers in 7.1 mode, except the subwoofer, with my Outlaw 7700 300 wpc @4-ohm, and I am not sure if it sounds better than with my previous Polk Audio Monitor series speakers with my Denon receiver! It sure is a little bit better, but not very noticeably. Am I doing anything wrong? I am using 12 guage speaker wires I got from Wal-Mart for $20/50ft and Monster power surge protector/conditioner. I am not sure if it was worth the money spent! I can't play it loud anyway either, because I live in an aprtment complex. I will keep what I have; but to be honest, I was expecting more from these! :(

[nebborjk]

garnier,

How long have you had these speakers? They will need some time to break in. This is usuallly around 100 hours.

[reeltrouble1]

Erik, its about power as measured in amperes. Without enough electrons flowing down the pipe (lack of power) the amp will clip the wave frequency distorting what you hear. You also need reserve power to handle something called transient sounds which are very short in duration but draw lots of power. You need am amp with around 25 amperes peak to peak rating minimum, however the more the better. There is no magical number of watts a device should put out to make you speakers sound this way or that.

RT1

[dkg999]

I am listening to my system consisting of all LSi speakers in 7.1 mode, except the subwoofer, with my Outlaw 7700 300 wpc @4-ohm, and I am not sure if it sounds better than with my previous Polk Audio Monitor series speakers with my Denon receiver! It sure is a little bit better, but not very noticeably. Am I doing anything wrong? I am using 12 guage speaker wires I got from Wal-Mart for $20/50ft and Monster power surge protector/conditioner. I am not sure if it was worth the money spent! I can't play it loud anyway either, because I live in an aprtment complex. I will keep what I have; but to be honest, I was expecting more from these! :(

Having moved up the Polk Audio food chain in my HT, from SDA's to Monitors (vintage) to RTi, then to LSi ...... if you can't hear a difference between the new Monitor series and the LSi's, then either something in your system isn't right, or you just aren't able to appreciate the differences (not a critical comment, not everybodys ears hear the same things!). If you are comparing to vintage Polk Monitors, then the difference vs the LSi will be smaller, but still should be noticeable.

[Ron Temple]

or you just aren't able to appreciate the differences (not a critical comment, not everybodys ears hear the same things!). If you are comparing to vintage Polk Monitors, then the difference vs the LSi will be smaller, but still should be noticeable.Hopefully that isn't the case...

What are you primarily listening to music or HT? What's your room like/size?.

Your gear looks fine, so it's either expectation or setup. You should be hearing a noticeable change in the soundstage, larger and more open, deeper, with pinpoint imaging. Macro and micro detail should manifest better within the stage. When you close your eyes, you should be able to place the individual instruments (imaging). The Monitors are decent speakers, but should sound slightly smeared in comparison.

In my experience, when I hear a superior speaker, I can tell immediately what it does better. The really great ones, hit you with the "I've got to have that" feeling. I'd think the LSis would do that for garnier.

[MGPK]

http://http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/pjay99/guruscordell.htm

[cfrizz]

He doesn't say what Denon he has, I wonder if he has calibrated everything.

[GV#27]

- how does the power supply behind the amplication circuitry mitigate overdriving beyond an amps rated power rating?
The power supply is the limiting factor ,if it can no longer provide the current and voltage required by the output transistors to reproduce the signal then clipping (severe distortion)will occur.The actual power output obtained depends on the load the speaker presents to the amp.

[tonyb]

Erik- I believe RT1 nailed it.Along with a good answer by GV#27.What exactly do you design and/or build as an engineer?Curious is all,anything audio related? Numbers have their place in the design stage to meet a certain criteria,but thats not all there is to a good amp.

[AudioFilet]

I'm wondering now if my HK AVR745 would be able to handle 4 ohm loads? It seems to have the specs for it, but who knows?

Any thoughts on that?

[SKsolutions]

^It should^ I wouldn't drive (7) 4 Ohm speakers for very long, but in two channel @4 Ohm, it will perform quite well. It'll be the bees knees -until you get a solid separate amp. Then you will wonder why you waited. Nice warm sound with that combo. It'll open up a bit if you upgrade.

[garnier]

I use my setup mostly for watching movies, and I calibrated the system using an automatic calibrator of a receiver.
I do notice a difference now that I am using an external amplifier compared to just using a receiver. So I souldn't regret spending money if there are even a little bit of improvement.
So, I guess I shouldn't complain, because there are some improvements. Maybe I expected too much.
But I am content with what I have now! Thank you! :)

[Sami]

I'm wondering now if my HK AVR745 would be able to handle 4 ohm loads? It seems to have the specs for it, but who knows?

It should.

[Erik Tracy]

Erik- I believe RT1 nailed it.Along with a good answer by GV#27.What exactly do you design and/or build as an engineer?Curious is all,anything audio related? Numbers have their place in the design stage to meet a certain criteria,but thats not all there is to a good amp.

Computer Systems (aka System Architect).

Nothing audio related.

But even in audio, I would guess every audio engineer agonizes over numbers in their design and that listening tests involve gathering 'data' and subjected to 'analysis'. ;)

Ultimately, in the end, it comes down to us, as listeners, and whether we get that sublime smile of satisfaction of sweet enveloping sound.

But - the numbers get you there! :D

Erik

[Sami]

Designing audio equipment must be more like designing candy; everything depends on personal taste. With candy you can't say whether you like it or not based on how much sugar it has.

[mightymouse]

Very sensible statement.




Designing audio equipment must be more like designing candy; everything depends on personal taste. With candy you can't say whether you like it or not based on how much sugar it has.

[garnier]

What's your room like/size?

I shouldn't have said that there aren't substantial improvents after having a separate amplifier and 7.1 LSi set-ups compared to my Denon receiver and Monitor series speakers.
It was more substantial when I just ignored my neighbor, although only for a while, and turned the volume up high. A reading on my Monster Power Conditioner for the Current Usage went up from about 5 to 7 ampere and I couldn't hear any distortion but a clean ambient room-filling sound from all 7 speakers. My living room is about 20 by 20 by 8 feet. So it is pretty big size. I was really impressed at what sound the amplifier can produce and handle!
I really like my set-up more than before. :)

[Ron Temple]

I shouldn't have said that there aren't substantial improvents after having a separate amplifier and 7.1 LSi set-ups compared to my Denon receiver and Monitor series speakers.
It was more substantial when I just ignored my neighbor, although only for a while, and turned the volume up high. A reading on my Monster Power Conditioner for the Current Usage went up from about 5 to 7 ampere and I couldn't hear any distortion but a clean ambient room-filling sound from all 7 speakers. My living room is about 20 by 20 by 8 feet. So it is pretty big size. I was really impressed at what sound the amplifier can produce and handle!
I really like my set-up more than before. :)I think the benefits of an amp show more clearly with music. You've got nothing else to distract you and the differences are more concrete.

Yep, cranking it up will definitely give you an idea, but I think you'll start to notice the subtle differences at lower volumes as you get more experience. You've got a great rig, you should be very proud of it. After you get used to it, you'll be able to tell immediately what goes backwards, especially when visiting friends...(of course you'll also be able to tell what you're lacking ;)). Have some fun with it and then report back.