Denon VS Onkyo

[xandra]

Am stuck in total indecision between the following Recievers:
Denon 3808ci
Onkyo 805
Onkyo 875

I've done a great deal of research, so you needn't waste time on spec comparisons...
I'm mostly interested in you're personal experience with: audio quality, manufacturer support, and user interface. (I tend to favor Onkyo for it's ease of use/interface but I've only had a few moments with the Denon-so not surprising i found it rather oppressive: example: had to go to submenus to select listening mode*)

Most importantly I'd like you opinions of
Audio quality differences between the Onk & Denon,
My main concern is music. (classical in particular, but also listen to oldtime Rock & R&B(Stones / Aretha) ie poor recordings.

I'm particularly interested opinions of those who've actually heard both models
or
2 comparable models from each maker ie a 120watt onk vs 120watt denon.
(I've tried for months to get to hear both with Polks to no avail...)


If you have any other opinions about the pros/cons (not specs) of these models... please speak up.
-------------------
-* Is it easy to program universal remotes to get to Denon's menus/submenus?

[AsSiMiLaTeD]

What speakers are you powering with it, that'll make a big difference.

[WilliamM2]

I have the PR-SC885P pre-amp, which has the same feature set as the 875, just no amps. So while it's not a direct comparison, I find the sound quality to be excellent, with a slightly warmer sound. The 875 will also give you the benefit of the REON scaler, if you need one. The scalers in the other two units are not comparable in quality.

[xandra]

What speakers are you powering with it, that'll make a big difference.

Whoops... RTi10 Fronts, CSiA6 Center, RTi6 Surrounds (might add RTi4s for Surround back when I get an Amp)

[xandra]

I find the sound quality to be excellent, with a slightly warmer sound.
William: Warmer than what? (Denon? Onk 805?)

[mantis]

basically the biggest difference is how different they sound. Both companies have issues and strong pionts. Denon is a more laidback and onkyo is more in your face bright if you will. Depending on you needs, both companies are good in general.

[margate21]

if u did not buy the amp yet u should consider getting the onkyo 805 and the sunfire 5channel- 5200 that is on sale..(some seen some posts with regards to it). i love it with my lsi's. although i have no previous experience with amps. but i have read the rt 10's are power hungry as well. just a thought.

[xandra]

u should consider getting the onkyo 805 and the sunfire 5channel- 5200
thanks for the heads up, I'm probably going to a 2channel amp - but decided to look into it at your suggestion: Alas, seems no authorized dealers in my area (Sunfire won't honor warantees from non-autho dealers) Who'd ya buy from?

[VXR8]

basically the biggest difference is how different they sound. Both companies have issues and strong pionts. Denon is a more laidback and onkyo is more in your face bright if you will. Depending on you needs, both companies are good in general.

Considering the above comment on the 2 manufacturers, some will say the RTi10s are a tad bright and need taming (I had the 10s matched with a Yamaha receiver and it was a bit harsh for music). My vote would be for the Denon 3808, but do your utmost to listen to both if you can with the Polks - good luck.

[WilliamM2]

William: Warmer than what? (Denon? Onk 805?)

Warmer than the Denon's I have tried. I have not listened to the 805.

[WilliamM2]

basically the biggest difference is how different they sound. Both companies have issues and strong pionts. Denon is a more laidback and onkyo is more in your face bright if you will. Depending on you needs, both companies are good in general.

You obviously have not listened to any of the new upper end Onkyo's.

[billbillw]

The Onkyo 805 is not 'in your face' or bright. It is actually very neutral.

Ultimately, the biggest difference between the Onkyo 805 and the Denon 3808 is the price and the networking capability. I feel that the Onkyo has a better amplifier section. The Denon has better preamp section with more 'tweakability' (w/ respect to bass management and levels) along with a few nice features like HDCD decoding. Mainly, it has all the network capabilities that the Onkyo does not.

The Onkyo 875 is basically the 805 with improved (HQV Reon) video processing. If your sources do not have good upscaling or deinterlacing capabilities, then the 875 is worth considering.

[WilliamM2]

The Denon has better preamp section with more 'tweakability' (w/ respect to bass management and levels)

Doesn't the 805 have seperate crossover frequencies for all channels, adjustable every 5hz (ie 35, 40, 45, 50, 55, etc.) and speaker level adjustments of .5db? The 875 and 885 do. Curious what other bass management tweaks the new Denon's have.

[Marty913]

Doesn't the 805 have seperate crossover frequencies for all channels, adjustable every 5hz (ie 35, 40, 45, 50, 55, etc.) and speaker level adjustments of .5db? The 875 and 885 do. Curious what other bass management tweaks the new Denon's have.

I know you did not mention Video performance but the June issue of Home Theater magazine compares the Denon AVR-3808 and the Onkyo TX-SR875 from a video processing perspective. Might be worth reading if you're spending the money. All information is good.

[WilliamM2]

I know you did not mention Video performance but the June issue of Home Theater magazine compares the Denon AVR-3808 and the Onkyo TX-SR875 from a video processing perspective. Might be worth reading if you're spending the money. All information is good.

I'm not spending any money, I already have the PR-SC885 pre-amp. The Denon uses the old Faroudja video proc (known for macro-blocking), the 875 and 885 use the REON video proc, from all other reviews I have read, there's no contest, the REON is a better scaler.

[billbillw]

Doesn't the 805 have seperate crossover frequencies for all channels, adjustable every 5hz (ie 35, 40, 45, 50, 55, etc.) and speaker level adjustments of .5db? The 875 and 885 do. Curious what other bass management tweaks the new Denon's have.

I believe the Denon has more flexibility in terms of being able to adjust the LFE level + or - and in smaller increments than the Onkyo's.

[WilliamM2]

I believe the Denon has more flexibility in terms of being able to adjust the LFE level + or - and in smaller increments than the Onkyo's.

Nah, they both go in .5db steps, and the Denon has 10 selectable crossover points up to 250hz, while the Onkyo has 15 selectable up to 200hz.

Of course most subs have level controls as well, so you could really get just abut any increment you wanted.

[xandra]

quotes by billi:

I feel that the Onkyo has a better amplifier section. The Denon has better preamp section with more 'tweakability' (w/ respect to bass management and levels) along with a few nice features like HDCD decoding.

Could you explain the difference between Amp/Pre-Amp sections to me?

As for the 875 Reon Processing -- I've mixed feelings as I've read that Onk's implementation is limited. currently my TV's teensy so upscaling etc not a big deal (even my 480i recordings which I further downsampled look ok). But who knows one day I may desired a 10' display) My main interest in the 875 is the extra HDMI port & a couple other fine points.

(PS: HDCD's a nice format - wish it wasn't dead, but to date I only have 1 disc, - and my ancient Panny can decode)

[WilliamM2]

The only limitation I am aware of on the Onkyo's REON implementation, was when they were first released. The REON picture controls were missing. This was corrected in the first firmware update last October.

[mmadden28]

quotes by billi:
...

(PS: HDCD's a nice format - wish it wasn't dead, but to date I only have 1 disc, - and my ancient Panny can decode)

Did you mean SACD?

[billbillw]

Nah, they both go in .5db steps, and the Denon has 10 selectable crossover points up to 250hz, while the Onkyo has 15 selectable up to 200hz.

Of course most subs have level controls as well, so you could really get just abut any increment you wanted.

I'm talking LFE level, not sub level. Also, a limitation of the Onkyo is it only goes - in trim adjustments.

This became an issue when people tried to workaround the Panasonic LFE bug on their bluray players. It was easier to fix on the Denons.

[xandra]

mmadden:
No- I did mean HDCD (tho I love and rely on SACD in this case have a Yammie to decode- another great loss)

William wrote:

The only limitation I am aware of on the Onkyo's REON implementation, was when they were first released. The REON picture controls were missing. This was corrected in the first firmware update last October.

Yes have heard this - following threads at avsforums - but seems upgrading dated units is at your own risk: thus I've been stalling hoping to receive an already updated unit (the latest apparently also fixes some lip-sync issues - more important to me)

[mmadden28]

Nah, they both go in .5db steps, and the Denon has 10 selectable crossover points up to 250hz, while the Onkyo has 15 selectable up to 200hz.

Of course most subs have level controls as well, so you could really get just abut any increment you wanted.

I have the Onkyo 805, with respect to the LFE levels and the use of the multichannel inputs (from an SACD), I've read that the LFE is typically sent to the reciever/preamp about 10dB lower than ideal and that a general suggestion is to turn up the LFE level +10dB on the multichannel input. The Onkyo 805 only allows you to set the dB levels per input to 0 (no change) or -10dB. So I was unable to just turn the multichannel level +10dB.

The other more precision level controls you refer to are global and affect all the inputs. In the SACD's case (or is it any multichannel line level source?), bumping up the LFE there, will cause all the other sources to also be +10dB which is just too much. The only workaround I was able to come up with was to do just that, set the global level for LFE +10db, then set the 'per input' levels of all but the multichannel to -10dB.

So it seems that yes you can get some precise control with levels, but to me, it was not straightforward, and actually the first couple times tweaking, I missed the availability of both sets of level controls-just a bit confusing.

[mmadden28]

....
If you have any other opinions about the pros/cons (not specs) of these models... please speak up.
-------------------
-* Is it easy to program universal remotes to get to Denon's menus/submenus?

I don't have enough experience to really post a worthwhile comparison, especially since I am also using an external amp, I think the Onkyo 805 is a nice AVR. I chose it based on some of the specs, but mainly because it was generally posted to be a decent AVR, even if just used as a pre-pro. Besides I bought mine at ecost.com (auth Onkyo dealer) as a factory refurb fo rabout $570 (+/-)-The unit I recieved not only contained the remote and everything else they said referbs don't have, you could have fooled me that it wasn't a brand spanking new unit. It has a shorter 1 year warranty, but you can by an additional 1 or 2 (I forget) for $70 from Onkyo direct.

I have RTi12s for fronts. I am not sure yet on brightness/warmth yet. It seems that with my constant tweaking and experimenting, that sometimes I get a bright harshness, and sometimes I don't-depends on the settings I had it set to. It's also varied considerable depending on my source (DVD, CD, SACD, Fios/Cable). (I'll avoid any talk of IC or speaker wire types here :rolleyes: )

The only other annoyances I can really post about, might be when you change between different sound decoding options, there is a delay with no sound during the switch, so its harder to do any "on-the-fly" comparisons. Its also annoying when you go into the setup, that the source audio is disabled, so again, you can't make any on-the-fly sound or level adjustments. I don't recall what other AVRs do allow the on-the-fly adjustments, but they are out there. Definately a feature I wish this Onk had.

Oh and if you have an Xbox 360 with component output, and you connect it to the component input on the 805 and output via HDMI, the output will only be 720p, essentially scaled DOWN. The image (especially the main Xbox Blade interface, (unless I have an isolated case) was also very washed out. I ended up connecting the Xbox directly to the component input on the TV to avoid the color wash and maintain the 1080i resolution. (Note: I have one of the early generation Xbox's-but not the first-thus I have no HDMI output option).

[mmadden28]

I'm talking LFE level, not sub level. Also, a limitation of the Onkyo is it only goes - in trim adjustments.

This became an issue when people tried to workaround the Panasonic LFE bug on their bluray players. It was easier to fix on the Denons.

Note: I may have the LFE and sub levels mixed up in my previous comment-sorry I'm not in front of my HT right now to verify. As I mentioned-it was a bit confusing in that area.

[mmadden28]

mmadden:
No- I did mean HDCD (tho I love and rely on SACD in this case have a Yammie to decode- another great loss)
...

Hmm, haven't heard that one before. So far for the consumer level HD type formats, I've only heard of SACD, the DVD formats using the audio portion (DVD-Audio), and of course the new HD-DVD/BluRay HD audio formats (Dolby and DTS varieties). And before I get yelled at, yes I've also heard of vinyl. ;)

Learn something new every day/

[WilliamM2]

Yes have heard this - following threads at avsforums - but seems upgrading dated units is at your own risk: thus I've been stalling hoping to receive an already updated unit (the latest apparently also fixes some lip-sync issues - more important to me)

Updating the firmware is a piece of cake on the 875, 885. With the 805 you would have to send it in, as they have not released firmware to end users.

These units are sold out half the time, so most vendors have very fresh stock, I haven't heard of anyone getting a unit with the original firmware in at least 6 months.

[xandra]

mmadden wrote (refering to HDCD):

Hmm, haven't heard that one before
HDCD was an audio format MS developed?/stole?/copyrighted? I dunno anything else about it, except that all HDCD disks are hybrids (will play std CD layer on any player) & how it sounds:
I've one disk: "Crosby Stills & Nash Greatest Hits" if this CD is any indication - the format's a real winner. Tho not as sweet as SACD, It's the best quality I've heard from remastered music of this type & era.

Alas, the format's dead - so if you don't have a player or disks, I wouldn't worry about it.

[xandra]

WilliamM2 wroteth:

Updating the firmware is a piece of cake on the 875, 885. With the 805 you would have to send it in, as they have not released firmware to end users.


Thanks William - that's a deal breaker for me (at least between 805 & 875).
Wonder why all the folks on avsforum are downloading stuff posted there?
see thread named "The Onkyo/Integra direct firmware updates"
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1016297

If I decide against the Denon, I'm only left with choosing a dealer (I generally prefer Crutchfield for their excellent return policy, but for some reason they're MUCH higher on the 875.

[kuntasensei]

The Denons let you select the target curve for Audyssey MultEQ XT. The Onkyos use the Audyssey curve no matter what (with a slight rolloff of the highs similar to THX modes). The only way to trick the Onkyos into using Flat mode is to switch to a THX mode and turn the THX rolloff off, but it's not a persistent setting. The Denon is more flexible in that manner.

That said, I'm running an Onkyo 705 with RTi70 mains, CSi40 center and RTi28 surrounds with a SVS 20-39CS+ sub rig. I like the rolloff of the highs with Audyssey, since it tames some of the "sparkle" that the Polks had. It's especially noticeable with trumpets and violins. I don't think you could go wrong with either brand, but if you're concerned about having options for tailoring the sound to your liking, I'd go with the Denon.

[WilliamM2]

WilliamM2 wroteth:


Thanks William - that's a deal breaker for me (at least between 805 & 875).
Wonder why all the folks on avsforum are downloading stuff posted there?
see thread named "The Onkyo/Integra direct firmware updates"
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1016297

If I decide against the Denon, I'm only left with choosing a dealer (I generally prefer Crutchfield for their excellent return policy, but for some reason they're MUCH higher on the 875.

People download from AVS because it is much simpler, and quicker. Onkyo will send you a form to get the update, you have to sign it, fax it back, and then wait for the update CD to arrive in the mail. Although they do send some people links to download the DSP update. Don't know why the refuse to do that with firmware updates.

B&H has excellent service, and the 875 is about $310 less than Crutchfield with shipping.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/484703-REG/Onkyo_TX_SR875B_TX_SR875_Home_Theater_Receiver.htm l

J&R has also always given me great service, and it's $1099 + free shipping, $350 less than Crutchfield:

http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product=4192495

[jaysonbarnett]

Hey xandra if you live in the east bay in california i have the 805 with the speakers listed below so if you want to hear the receiver let me know. If you buy the denon i will hook it up as well so you can hear the difference for your self that will let you know which of the two you like better. This is all i can offer but i will side with the onkyo because i have one and i love it. Hope this helps have fun

[margate21]

there were some postings within the last week that said audiogon had the 5200 for sale. that sunfire was allowing authorized dealers to unload them (i am guessing for a new model coming out) people's pricing was $1100-1300. great price. i paid a heck of lot more last fall.

[malcolmp6]

Get the Integra 8.8. It beats all.

[WilliamM2]

Get the Integra 8.8. It beats all.


You realize that internally it's exactly the same as the 875, except it is missing the "Pure Direct" mode? And it cost more.

[VXR8]

Just on the Denon 3808 that I have recently purchased, I performed an update on my unit yesterday. This is a very easy process just with my broadband connection. You just go into the update menu and the unit does it all - no waiting for CDs in the mail.

[malcolmp6]

You realize that internally it's exactly the same as the 875, except it is missing the "Pure Direct" mode? And it cost more.

Also there are some features like internet radio, HD radio, custom Reon controls that are not found in the 875.
Not to mention the 3 year warranty.

[WilliamM2]

Also there are some features like internet radio, HD radio, custom Reon controls that are not found in the 875.
Not to mention the 3 year warranty.

Didn't realize the 8.8 had internet radio, so I guess it is the equivilent of the 905. The 875 does have Reon custom controls and HD radio though.

[xandra]

Where did you see HD Radio? I know it's Sirius and XM "ready" - but I haven't seen HD Radio listed.

Does anyone know if the Denon runs as hot as the Onk?

[mantis]

You obviously have not listened to any of the new upper end Onkyo's.
Well I have listened to there entire line from Onkyo to Integra including there seperates. I have Installed Onkyo and Integra with many different kinds of speakers, rooms etc. My opnion stands.

[VXR8]

Where did you see HD Radio? I know it's Sirius and XM "ready" - but I haven't seen HD Radio listed.

Does anyone know if the Denon runs as hot as the Onk?

Not sure about the Onk, but I am driving a pair of LSi9s at moderate volumes in 2 channel and it has only ever got warmish, but never hot.

[xandra]

VX8R: Is your receiver in a cabinet? (Mine will be going inside one, with an open back and front - I have about 12" of height availble for the reciever - my RTiA6 is hogging all)

[VXR8]

VX8R: Is your receiver in a cabinet? (Mine will be going inside one, with an open back and front - I have about 12" of height availble for the reciever - my RTiA6 is hogging all)

No actually, it is on top of one, so that would help with it's ability to not overheat - good point! ;)

[LushMojo]

We had the 875 and replaced it with the 3808. Absolutely no regrets.


Am stuck in total indecision between the following Recievers:
Denon 3808ci
Onkyo 805
Onkyo 875

I've done a great deal of research, so you needn't waste time on spec comparisons...
I'm mostly interested in you're personal experience with: audio quality, manufacturer support, and user interface. (I tend to favor Onkyo for it's ease of use/interface but I've only had a few moments with the Denon-so not surprising i found it rather oppressive: example: had to go to submenus to select listening mode*)

Most importantly I'd like you opinions of
Audio quality differences between the Onk & Denon,
My main concern is music. (classical in particular, but also listen to oldtime Rock & R&B(Stones / Aretha) ie poor recordings.

I'm particularly interested opinions of those who've actually heard both models
or
2 comparable models from each maker ie a 120watt onk vs 120watt denon.
(I've tried for months to get to hear both with Polks to no avail...)


If you have any other opinions about the pros/cons (not specs) of these models... please speak up.
-------------------
-* Is it easy to program universal remotes to get to Denon's menus/submenus?

[xandra]

We had the 875 and replaced it with the 3808. Absolutely no regrets
LushMojo: what exactly makes you prefer the Denon?

Additional Questions:
Does the Denon run cooler?

Are you able to overcome the remotes' "shortcomings" by using macro's with a universal remote (I'm always toggling channel levels, surround modes - there appears to be no one click method with the Denon)

How's the display of standard def video comparitively?

Lastly: My main concern with Denon is interface - the complexity of making simple changes (submenu hell), made worse by the dreadful manual... Did you find this a non-issue once you'd worked with it a bit?

[jon s]

well... i am the opposite... i went from denon to the onkyo (but with the tx-nr905). the denon sounds smooth but flat. the onkyo sounds a lot more beefy than the denon. the soundstage or imaging on the onkyo is far better than the denon. it is true that the onkyo gets very hot, but it is because of the reon video processor, not the amps. if you select pure audio mode which disables the video circuit, the onkyo runs quite cool, but the reon processor runs hot like an oven. there were issues with the early prod onkyos (video levels were altered when the reon processor was engaged and the infamous dts-hd master "bomb") but recent ones with firmware version 1.08 are bug free. one other thing, the onkyo weighs a hefty 50+ lbs, the denon 38lbs. the weight has to be somewhere and it is in the hefty power supplies in the amps. also note that the power supplies in the onkyo 875/905 are seperate in the video and audio circuits which means less interference or noise. i am a firm believer, the bigger the power supply the better the amp....

[xandra]

the soundstage or imaging on the onkyo is far better than the denon...but the reon processor runs hot like an oven
Jon: where do you have your Onk setup?
Is it in a cabinet?
If so...
How much space above?
Is cab open in front? in Back?

[jon s]

It's in a open cab... front and back.... top clearance is about 6 inches and sides are 2 inches